[BigAls87Z28]

HOLY ****!!!

Originally Posted by S.J.SLEEPER

as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.

Camaro, by its nature, will never come that close to the Corvette
#2: there have been a handfull of cars that have matched or beaten the Corvette. Current CTS-V will out perform the base C6 in just about everything.

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

I don't see many new Camaro's, except on dealer lots. Granted its January. And I'm not saying to build stripped out hulks, just make the Z28 lighter by 400lbs, give a performance based handling package and use the Z06 engine.

Camaro outsold the Mustang, by a large margin, since it stepped onto dealer lots. By a lot. In fact, some months Camaro outsold the Mustang AND Challenger combined.
You say dont strip it out, but then you say take away all featuers like power windows, door locks, etc etc?
You say dont want it stripped, but you want 400lbs to disappear?
The chassis is very strong adn was developed to hold 600+hp without additional chassis stregnthing, unlike the Mustang which gets a LOT of chassis upgrades to go from GT to GT500. Think that 500lbs gain from the two models is a supercharger and a 6spd manual? Remember, GT500 carries the SAME rear axle as the GT, and does not get an upgraded IRS system.
So an engine and a trans, a different hood, and people spend 15k MORE for it?

Camaro will not be able to loose 400lbs. 100-200lbs? Sure.

I agree. So as a compromise use the Z06 but "detune" it with a camshaft swap or something.

The LS7 costs a lot of money, as everything is unique and hand built. An LS7 powerd Camaro would come in at around 55k. Realize that the LS7 crate engine costs 50% of what a brand new, Camaro SS costs? Think about it.

1LT is a loaded V6 car?
1SS is the entry level V8 car?
2SS is the loaded V8 car?

LS is base car 18" retro steelies.
1LT is step up. 18" alloy wheels cloth seats with cloth inserts on door and dash
2LT is next step up 19" alloy wheels with heated leather seats. Heated side mirrors as well, blue tooth standard, USB standard, Boston Accoustic system standard.
1SS gets same trim as the 1LT, just with a V8. SS gets different nose cone, 20" wheels with performance tires.
2SS gets same as 2LT, only with SS features.
RS package available on LT and SS models. Gives LT cars SS wheels, body color roof molding, darkened tail lights, red RS or SS badge, and halo headlights.

So why not do something different and offer the Z28 based off the 1SS with superior handling package, exhaust maybe some super duper seats and somehow trim the curb weight by 400lbs? Is that asking too much? We all know the Z28's hertiage was born of SCCA TransAm racing. Why not offer something that honors that heritage? The marketing campaign would practically write itself.

I agree with you, but you arent gunna see 400lbs. Thats greater then 10% of the weight of the car. Corvette Z51 vs Corvette Z06, the weight difference is 150lbs, and the Corvette Z06 gets an all aluminum frame, magensium engine cradle and roof brace. It also has carbon fiber parts.

I agree that the Z28 should be a lighter weight version of the SS. Up the brakes, up the suspension, minor boost in LS3 power, drop the weight by 150lbs. It would be a fantastic car, offering a 450hp car at around 3700lbs.
Bench mark, to me, is the M3. M3 is a 400+hp coupe weighing in at 3700lbs or so. Z28 should target that cars' drive, steering feel, handling, poise and stance, for 2/3's the price.

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

Yeah the GT500 super duper version is 3900lbs...but the GT is pretty still a relatively light car at 3400lbs.

GM doesn't need to chase the GT500-Super Snake-Shelbly-Parnelli Jones-Boss-Mach I-Cobra Jet edition.

Let the aftermarket builders do that.

Just build the Z28 to completely annhilate the GT....completely and totally and let the thing have some personality....

The SS annhilates the GT now. The 2011 GT will be a lot closer due to the increased power. But a Z28 will not be going after the GT.

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

The LSA......not missing it at all. But guess what? That kills the idea of keeping the price down....so now your talking about a 50K+ Z28? And how many people are gonna drop that kinda coin on a Camaro? Not a Vette, not a Caddy, but a Camaro?

What would be outright hilarious is if they did an iron block version for the Camaro so the CTS-V crowd would still feel exclusive.

The Z28 would be Camaro's GT500/SRT8, top trim car. While not 50k, it would deff start in the mid 40's. And who would buy them? They would sell every single one, just as they do now. People grab up every GT500, GT500KR, etc etc, and they get to 90k.

With the exception of the original Z28, the Camaro has always gotten a watered down motor from the Vette. Why can't the Z28 be a car unto itself. No borrowed motors, no trying to please everyone with gadgets and ubber refinements. Build a bad mofo car, keep it simple, keep it clean, give it the HP, the suspension and good seats and let it rip. If it kicks the base Vette's rear end, then the Vette team needs to up the ante.

Who is the target demographic again?

Cars like the Z28 are high end cars, and cars taht cost a lot of money usually come with features. Camaro comes with these features like power windows and door locks. Designing roll up windows, manual locks, and things that are not part of the current Camaro would actually drive costs up. A lot. Because then it would have to be certified and retested, as it would rengineer a lot of things inside the door, and that would effect side crash tests.
The Camaro is a bad mofo car now. Corvette does not need to worry about anything. It will be too light, too small, and too fast for the Camaro.

Not 100% on the demo but Id throw out a guess anyone. The V6 is built for the younger crowd, perhaps the non-American crowd is used to the high output of a V6, and not the grunt of a V8.
V8 models market is a older, Id say in the 35-40 year old and up market. People that want power, but dont want modern features.

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

And it showed in the bland styling.....

But was the GTO a success or was it something more towards the other end of the scale?

In 04, the GTO outsold the 04 Cobra.
the 04 GTO outsold, and I belive almost doubled Trans Am sales in 2002.
04 GTO also outsold 2002 SS Camaros.
In American numbers, 15-18k units is a very small number of cars. But to Austrailia, more then 50% of all Monaro production was sold in America.
We assume that since the GTO only had a program run of 3 years due to a total chassis redesign, that it was a flop due to its design.
Far from the truth. GTO's styling was a byproduct of Australian design. It was a low cost, quick move to get a quality product out to market. Pontiac's research says that a lot of Trans Am owners, as well as Grand Am coupe and Grand Prix coupes sold or traded them in and got higher end coupes from BMW, Benz. The idea of bringing a higher quality coupe to market like the GTO was a huge win for GM.
Only in the eyes of jaded enthusiasts did we see the GTO as a flop. We expected a 1970 Judge wraped around a modern platform to come rolling off the boats from Australia.