Why the Mustang succedes BIG TIME!

[edpontiac91]

Where were the bean counters when GM let the Camaro and Firebird die a slow death from 1998-2002 without changing a cigar ligther. Look at the success FORD has enjoyed with all the pony car wanters. Now comes the news that the 2011 Mustang gets a 5.0 412 hp motor. But that's old news. The BOSS 302R IS BACK. With only 50 copies to be made @ $79,000, this is a non-street legal factory race ready model. The cars will be fitted with a roll cage, a race seat, data acquisition, race dampers/springs, a safety harness and Brembo brake package. Plus if your looking for MORE, Ford Racing is offering a Grand-Am Homologation package . This version will have a sealed high-output racing engine and upgraded cooling system, a special 6-speed trans, a seam-welded body, race suspension with Koni dampers/race exhaust and balanced one-piece driveshaft. This baby will set you back $129,000. They are doing things to this car that GM only could dream of. If they had put ANY EFFORT into upgrading the F-Body cars, we might still have our cars today.

[Frosty]

Special cars like that don't sell the regular, street driven versions. That's more or less Ford saying "look at what we can do". The reason the Fbody didn't outsell the Mustang was solely based on price IMO.

Mid 20's for a GT compared to almost 30 for a loaded WS6...to a non-motor head enthusiast the choice is a no-brainer.

[B4C]

Non street legal car with 129k price tag FTL! If i'm paying that much I wanna drive it. The 2011 mustang gt is gonna be quite a contendor with the camaro

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Special cars like that don't sell the regular, street driven versions. That's more or less Ford saying "look at what we can do". The reason the Fbody didn't outsell the Mustang was solely based on price IMO.

Mid 20's for a GT compared to almost 30 for a loaded WS6...to a non-motor head enthusiast the choice is a no-brainer.

*footnote*

Insurance prices don't help either.

[MyFirstZ]

This is why we have the corvette and all the sub models that they have produced

[Knipps]

Originally Posted by MyFirstZ

This is why we have the corvette and all the sub models that they have produced

exactly. all you need is 3 characters. Z R 1.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by MyFirstZ

This is why we have the corvette and all the sub models that they have produced

Yeah but historically the Corvette is in a class unto itself with respect to the Ford product line. Ford doesn't really have anything to go head to head with the Vette.

The Mustang is a pony car and thus is directly compared to the Camaro and Challenger, as it should be. If GM wants to play, they better get it figured out quick or the car will die again. Seems like the newness and excitement of the Camaro is already starting to fade. Its too heavy and too late to the game.

RIP Camaro. What's the over/under on the life of the 5th gen? 3 years? 5 years? I'm still not sure I like the styling. I know I don't like the enormous wheels it rolls on, they look ridiculous. And you revive the iconic Camaro, but don't offer a Z28 package? Way to honor the lineage GM. What were they thinking? GM FTL. They have arguably the greatest mass produced NA V8 engine the world has ever known and still can't get their collective heads out of their backsides long enough to wrap it in something stylish at a reasonable price without turning into a tuna boat. They are called "pony" cars, not "clydesdale" cars.....

I'd look at a lightly used CTS-V or the new 2 door CTS-V, hell even a regular old CTS long before a 5th gen.

stepping down off the soap box.......sorry but i had to vent.

[Frosty]

Can someone please explain to me how GM not building some super-duper non street legal car is going to kill the Camaro. You guys don't think that Ford is going to sell more Mustangs because they built some $100K track car do you? If so I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona really cheap.

BTW, the Z28 is coming back.

[NastyEllEssWon]

[Frosty]

Drove one....cool cars, just not $200K cool. Can has ZR1 for way less.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Can someone please explain to me how GM not building some super-duper non street legal car is going to kill the Camaro. You guys don't think that Ford is going to sell more Mustangs because they built some $100K track car do you? If so I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona really cheap.

BTW, the Z28 is coming back.

exactly, the low slung super agressive styling of the car that limited the market by making itself hard to drive killed the fourth gen.

competing against itself kill the fourth gen.

having to pay to factories worth of people to build the same thing with different plastics killed the 4th gen (you can say that about all of gm)

it had nothing to do with special models and track cars.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Can someone please explain to me how GM not building some super-duper non street legal car is going to kill the Camaro. You guys don't think that Ford is going to sell more Mustangs because they built some $100K track car do you? If so I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona really cheap.

BTW, the Z28 is coming back.

The super duper Mustangs might not cause a spike in sales. But what it does do is generate buzz. Case in point, this an F-body board and its generating buzz, imagine what it will do on a mustang board?

Second, the factory effort will mean lots of the those parts will probably be available and will bolt onto the street cars. More buzz, more support from the aftermarket, the dealers. Anyone remember Downs Ford? They sold more 5.0/Fox body performance parts than probably anyone else on the East coast or so it seemed. I can't name a Chevy dealership that was on par in that era? There is the NMRA. But no NCRA? I'm thinking the Mustang benefits hugely from having an entire race series named after it. Camaro, no such luck.

The Z28 might be coming back, but as what? A 3800lb slug marketing tool? Or a 3200lb performer worthy of the name? GM can't really do the latter, because if the Z28 were a full on effort, it might step on the Vette's toes, that ain't gonna happen. I can hear the crying from the Vette crowd already. If GM really want to Ford and the Mustang, they could put together an F-body that would absolutely embarrass the automotive world on a performance versus dollar basis.

Chuck the full-on Z06 (not the supercharged ZR1, that's reserved for the Vette/CTS-V crowd) powerplant into a base optioned 5th gen with factory installed headers/performance exhaust. No power seats, no cruise control, reduce the sound deadening material by 50%, no super duper stereo with 18 speakers and amps, cloth seats, performance shifter, smaller lighter more reasonable wheel/tire combo with a performance spring/shock/sway bar package and I bet it stands with the best of them, so much so that base corvette guys would be

And call it the Z28, bring its curbweight in at 32-3300lbs (by whatever means necessary) packed full of 505hp.....Hell you could even keep the AC, the PW, PDL. Think FRC Vette meets 5th gen Camaro......

Oh and keep the price at $32k+/-

GM will never do it....I hope they make a liar out of me.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Drove one....cool cars, just not $200K cool. Can has ZR1 for way less.

Exaclty. Ford doesn't have an answer to the Vette. Even the GT40 was weak in the knees when up against the Vette, especially considering the price point.

[Frosty]

BTW, GM offers a Camaro shell for drag racing applications.

As far as I know there was a full out drag version of the Challenger...we all see how well that helped sell the car.

What exactly are you basing the lack of Camaro buzz on(I have my theories but I'll play nice)? ANY new model we get all kinds of hype then die down...do you want people blowing GM engineers for the next 5yrs? The buzz over the redesigned Mustang died in about a year then it was business as usual.

I'm sorry but factory drag car products DO NOT sell cars...GM could go build a 1200hp, $200K drag car and I(along with the masses) could care less. I'm either going to buy a new Camaro or I'm not....why would some pet project influence my decision to buy or not buy? Anyone that gets influenced by a drag car like that they can't afford is an idiot.

BTW, the days of 3200lbs cars are LONG gone....WAY LONG gone...there are too many safety requirements and bells and whistles the public wants. Sure, go strip out a Z28 to have nothing in it...GM would sell about 10 of them to die hard enthusiasts.

I still don't buy this super Mustang influencing a single street model sale...one has nothing to do with the other IMO. Some people are using this pet project to rip on GM...then they would be the same people whining that GM spends $$ on stupid stuff....this would be a perfect example. GM would see absolutely no benefit to building some stupid drag car.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

Exaclty. Ford doesn't have an answer to the Vette. Even the GT40 was weak in the knees when up against the Vette, especially considering the price point.

Don't tell that to some of the Ford fanboi's. They think this new 5.0 Mustang will give a Z06 a run for its money. The car wont' even outperform a base C6 and they think it'll go Z06 hunting.

Silly Ford guys.

[Adam1978]

1qwikbird is right, its the same thing as Porsche's Cayman, it could have been A LOT better, however then it would be in 911 territory, and GM doesnt want a camaro to be faster than their flagship Z06, i think if they ousted that and kept the super-fast ZR1, then they would be much better off, the one thing people want is Cheap Speed, give them that and they'll buy it!

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Adam1978

1qwikbird is right, its the same thing as Porsche's Cayman, it could have been A LOT better, however then it would be in 911 territory, and GM doesnt want a camaro to be faster than their flagship Z06, i think if they ousted that and kept the super-fast ZR1, then they would be much better off, the one thing people want is Cheap Speed, give them that and they'll buy it!

they dont want the camaro to be faster than the BASE corvette.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

The super duper Mustangs might not cause a spike in sales. But what it does do is generate buzz. Case in point, this an F-body board and its generating buzz, imagine what it will do on a mustang board?

Second, the factory effort will mean lots of the those parts will probably be available and will bolt onto the street cars. More buzz, more support from the aftermarket, the dealers. Anyone remember Downs Ford? They sold more 5.0/Fox body performance parts than probably anyone else on the East coast or so it seemed. I can't name a Chevy dealership that was on par in that era? There is the NMRA. But no NCRA? I'm thinking the Mustang benefits hugely from having an entire race series named after it. Camaro, no such luck.

The Z28 might be coming back, but as what? A 3800lb slug marketing tool? Or a 3200lb performer worthy of the name? GM can't really do the latter, because if the Z28 were a full on effort, it might step on the Vette's toes, that ain't gonna happen. I can hear the crying from the Vette crowd already. If GM really want to Ford and the Mustang, they could put together an F-body that would absolutely embarrass the automotive world on a performance versus dollar basis.

Chuck the full-on Z06 (not the supercharged ZR1, that's reserved for the Vette/CTS-V crowd) powerplant into a base optioned 5th gen with factory installed headers/performance exhaust. No power seats, no cruise control, reduce the sound deadening material by 50%, no super duper stereo with 18 speakers and amps, cloth seats, performance shifter, smaller lighter more reasonable wheel/tire combo with a performance spring/shock/sway bar package and I bet it stands with the best of them, so much so that base corvette guys would be

And call it the Z28, bring its curbweight in at 32-3300lbs (by whatever means necessary) packed full of 505hp.....Hell you could even keep the AC, the PW, PDL. Think FRC Vette meets 5th gen Camaro......

Oh and keep the price at $32k+/-

GM will never do it....I hope they make a liar out of me.

lol they couldnt even keep the ss at or under that tag

[Jersey_TA]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

They look nice, but I've ridden in my buddy's boss's Ford GT and it was by far the most uncomfortable car I've ever ridden in.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by cbrrmike

they dont want the camaro to be faster than the BASE corvette.

The Z06 has never been their "flagship" car. I'm not sure what everyone is bitching about, the Camaro is selling just fine. The days of stripped out, 3200lb cars are long gone. This isn't the 60's. There are a very select few people who want no-optioned cars....GM is in the business to make $, not to make every internet guru who won't buy one to begin with happy.

[S.J.SLEEPER]

as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.

[JL8Jeff]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

lol they couldnt even keep the ss at or under that tag

1SS with 6 speed comes in under $32K and has over 400hp, that seems affordable to me.

And I wonder how many of these Boss302R cars will be bought by investors and tucked away in storage to never be driven or raced, probably 50% or more. Any car that is not street legal is not even worth talking about unless you are a real racer. The technology is there to do whatever you want to a car, so having the manufacturer do it, jack the price up and make it not legal for street use is pretty worthless no matter who the manufacturer is. Build it (or have it built) yourself and drive it!

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by Frosty

The Z06 has never been their "flagship" car. I'm not sure what everyone is bitching about, the Camaro is selling just fine. The days of stripped out, 3200lb cars are long gone. This isn't the 60's. There are a very select few people who want no-optioned cars....GM is in the business to make $, not to make every internet guru who won't buy one to begin with happy.

I don't see many new Camaro's, except on dealer lots. Granted its January. And I'm not saying to build stripped out hulks, just make the Z28 lighter by 400lbs, give a performance based handling package and use the Z06 engine.

Originally Posted by S.J.SLEEPER

as far as I've always known,
the camaro/trans am/firebird. have always been short changed to keep it away from competing with the Vette.

the Vette is supposed to be Gm's ultimate car & if they produce a camaro that meets or exceeds the vette cause they were tryin to outdo the new mustang. then that would be a problem.

I agree. So as a compromise use the Z06 but "detune" it with a camshaft swap or something.

Originally Posted by JL8Jeff

1SS with 6 speed comes in under $32K and has over 400hp, that seems affordable to me.

And I wonder how many of these Boss302R cars will be bought by investors and tucked away in storage to never be driven or raced, probably 50% or more. Any car that is not street legal is not even worth talking about unless you are a real racer. The technology is there to do whatever you want to a car, so having the manufacturer do it, jack the price up and make it not legal for street use is pretty worthless no matter who the manufacturer is. Build it (or have it built) yourself and drive it!

1LT is a loaded V6 car?
1SS is the entry level V8 car?
2SS is the loaded V8 car?

So why not do something different and offer the Z28 based off the 1SS with superior handling package, exhaust maybe some super duper seats and somehow trim the curb weight by 400lbs? Is that asking too much? We all know the Z28's hertiage was born of SCCA TransAm racing. Why not offer something that honors that heritage? The marketing campaign would practically write itself.

Ford can build the factory race cars because they've got enough of a following and brand established it has afforded them the ability. It's nothing more than a showcase type vehicle. Kudos to them for doing it though.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

Ford can build the factory race cars because they've got enough of a following and brand established it has afforded them the ability. It's nothing more than a showcase type vehicle. Kudos to them for doing it though.

Them building that car has nothing to do with a following, has nothing to do with them drumming up sales...it has everything to do with "wow, look at what we did". A few rich wanna be drag racers will buy them and shove them in a heated garage so they can rub one out to them as it sits there.

Maybe there aren't many new Camaro's up by you but there are a ton around here. There was a waiting list for how long? The car is selling just fine.

400lb's is a lot of weight to trim and the Z28 hasn't been a SCCA tribute since the 60's. As far as the Z06 engine goes I believe they're phasing out the LS7(I could be wrong though).

With all of the safety equipment that's required it's hard to keep the weight down. Yes the car is bulky, yes the looks are subjective but the car handles its own just fine. It smokes it's competitors, Ford is just now upping the ante with the 5.0 Mustang, GM has time to respond. As of right now the Camaro is king of the hill...not sure why there's such an issue.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Them building that car has nothing to do with a following, has nothing to do with them drumming up sales...it has everything to do with "wow, look at what we did". A few rich wanna be drag racers will buy them and shove them in a heated garage so they can rub one out to them as it sits there.

Maybe there aren't many new Camaro's up by you but there are a ton around here. There was a waiting list for how long? The car is selling just fine.

400lb's is a lot of weight to trim and the Z28 hasn't been a SCCA tribute since the 60's. As far as the Z06 engine goes I believe they're phasing out the LS7(I could be wrong though).

With all of the safety equipment that's required it's hard to keep the weight down. Yes the car is bulky, yes the looks are subjective but the car handles its own just fine. It smokes it's competitors, Ford is just now upping the ante with the 5.0 Mustang, GM has time to respond. As of right now the Camaro is king of the hill...not sure why there's such an issue.

Hard core performance drivers will want a set list of specs and certain omissions. Radio delete, special ring and pinion, carbon fiber body panels, dry sump, etc. These cars won't sell well. They didn't in the 60's, either.

In order to keep the car alive they need to offer features that regular people want- like heated seats, XM radio, GPS, useless 22" rims, etc.

One of the reasons the Mustang is still around is because it's such a solid V6 seller. That affords them the ability to screw around with V8 models.