Is 2nd death of the muscle car upon us?

[LS1Hawk]

How New MPG Standards
Could Crimp Your Ride

Wall Street Journal - 12/3/07

The vehicles Americans drive got steadily bigger, faster and less fuel efficient for more than two decades, thanks to cheap oil and Washington's hands-off approach to regulation. If Congress passes the energy bill it is now considering, that trend would be jammed into reverse.

The deal brokered by top Democrats late Friday to boost average new vehicle fuel economy to 35 miles per gallon by 2020 means that American cars will get smaller, and possibly more expensive....

Emphasis on 0 to 60 performance, big engines and large horsepower numbers will decrease. The balance will tilt toward improving mileage .... Powerful sports cars like Ford's popular Mustang could become endangered, economic-forecasting firm Global Insight says, though exactly how auto makers will recalibrate their product mix remained unclear.

Full Article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1196...googlenews_wsj

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

I believe NJ already passed or is considering a bill similar to this? It definitely sucks though. But the performance hybrids I think show promise, plus aerodynamics and lightweight materials like carbon fiber will help us to allow a combo of mileage and performance. At least that is my hope.

[Knipps]

Originally Posted by LS1Hawk

The deal brokered by top Democrats late Friday to boost average new vehicle fuel economy to 35 miles per gallon by 2020 means that American cars will get smaller, and possibly more expensive...

so we're going to make them more efficient but also make it harder to afford
aka the less efficient vehicles will be on the road longer

[NJSPEEDER]

505 hp Z06 is rated at 29mpg highway(which is the base the standard is applied to). i don't see a new average MPG standard in 12 years bothering the industry too much.
it is also an average across all new vehicles sold, not every new vehicle. so for every two 38mpg aveos GM sells they can sell a Z06 and still meet the standard

[NumberTwo]

Im sure there will be some associated tax at purchare or registration time for vehicles that dont meet the requirements. IIRC the Father in law paid a 5K "Gas Guzzler" tax or some BS on his 07 Denali when he bought it a few months ago.

[AliWantsNss]

Originally Posted by NumberTwo

Im sure there will be some associated tax at purchare or registration time for vehicles that dont meet the requirements. IIRC the Father in law paid a 5K "Gas Guzzler" tax or some BS on his 07 Denali when he bought it a few months ago.

In NJ the Denali does not get that much of a gas guzzler tax from the state. It is .025% for vehicles that fail to get an avg MPG of 19.

[BonzoHansen]

To be quite honest, the average car has too much power, tires that are too wide (rolling resistence) and too much weight. Cut them all a bit and you are getting close. With current transmissions and engine controls we are almost there.

Hell, with modern torque manangement they only have 400hp at WOT anyway. It is nothing like 400hp of the old days. The average soccer mom could no way handle it.

And too many people drive vehicles that are too big (suvs, etc.).

IMO if you really want to push up mileage, CAFE shoud be abolished and replaced with a gas tax or something. I think the dems are repeating the sins of the past instead of recognizing it's previous failure.

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

To be quite honest, the average car has too much power, tires that are too wide (rolling resistence) and too much weight. Cut them all a bit and you are getting close. With current transmissions and engine controls we are almost there.

Hell, with modern torque manangement they only have 400hp at WOT anyway. It is nothing like 400hp of the old days. The average soccer mom could no way handle it.

And too many people drive vehicles that are too big (suvs, etc.).

IMO if you really want to push up mileage, CAFE shoud be abolished and replaced with a gas tax or something. I think the dems are repeating the sins of the past instead of recognizing it's previous failure.

u kno, i was just think the same thing a few days ago. i was wondering if "old school" HP was/is the same as "new school"? i mean there are A LOT of cars w/ 350+HP out now, and they seem very "domesticated". Like BMW 4 door cars, Benz's, ect... You also see a lot of mid 40 early 50 "divorce" women driving them and some men. Ppl who you can look at and tell they never owned or even beeen in a sports car before. To me there was no way they could handle the power if it were "true" HP.

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by AliWantsNss

In NJ the Denali does not get that much of a gas guzzler tax from the state. It is .025% for vehicles that fail to get an avg MPG of 19.

Theres a $1000 gas guzzler tax on the Shelby GT Mustang that gets 24mpg. WTF is that about.

[NightRydaSS]

besides, you can't sell what ppl dont want. The market drives production, why do you think there has been a jump in sport cars over the last decade and a half. Every manufacture has some sort of sports car now (Honda S2000???). The comes from a manufacture who was/is known for L.E.V and U.L.E.V cars. BMW has the lower end 3 series with a TT 300HP 335i, Mercedes jumped over the mountain with thier AMG cars. GM's not dumb, they squeezed out the Cobalt w/ a S/C on it. the Esclade has a 6.2L in it...CTS-V anyone??? Grandpop and grandma will NEVER miss the early bird special now.

They made these cars b/c that is what ppl want. i think that is what makes America, "America". Big SUV's, Lifted Pick-ups, and loud / crazy fast sports cars.

Now true, if they stop producing these cars ppl will have no choice but to buy them, but, don't forget about the aftermarket performance. Ppl will soop these things up as much as they can (look at ricers, 300HP Civic???). Which in turn will bring us right back to where we r now.

i dunno, politicians need to stop blowing their load every 2 seconds on every issue.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by NightRydaSS

besides, you can't sell what ppl dont want. The market drives production

That is exactly why CAFE should die. Been there, done that, failed. If gas cost more then the market would demand change.

[NumberTwo]

Originally Posted by AliWantsNss

In NJ the Denali does not get that much of a gas guzzler tax from the state. It is .025% for vehicles that fail to get an avg MPG of 19.

Yeah, I was wrong. Dont know what made me think of the 5K price tag. Its .4% on cars that dont get 19 MPG or better, or cars that sell for 45K or more. He falls into both categories lol

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by SteveR

Theres a $1000 gas guzzler tax on the Shelby GT Mustang that gets 24mpg. WTF is that about.

there is a sliding scale for gas guzzler taxes on anything under 26mpg highway i believe. the worse the mileage the higher the percentage. the only saving grace of this is that it tends to charge those who can afford mega yacht yuppie SUV's and leave is common citizens alone. finally, a tax being paid by those who can afford it

[LS1Hawk]

SUVs don't get a gas guzzler tax because they're classified as "light trucks." Which is total bs, because an auto Vette or GTO gets much better mpg, but they get slapped with the tax.

[Mike]

by the time that goes into effect all the gm high-performance v8 cars will have displacement on demand and get good enough gas mileage

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

That is exactly why CAFE should die. Been there, done that, failed. If gas cost more then the market would demand change.

what is CAFE??

Originally Posted by LS1Hawk

SUVs don't get a gas guzzler tax because they're classified as "light trucks." Which is total bs, because an auto Vette or GTO gets much better mpg, but they get slapped with the tax.

More reason to drive a stick biotch!!!

[qwikz28]

the SUV thing is out of control. i see old ladys driving V8 SUVs and i'm making due towing with my Vue. if you need the room, get a minivan. i felt the horror watching a lady take a year to get into a spot with a expedition and wouldn't let anyone pass. i wanted to poke myself in the eye

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by LS1Hawk

SUVs don't get a gas guzzler tax because they're classified as "light trucks." Which is total bs, because an auto Vette or GTO gets much better mpg, but they get slapped with the tax.

Yup, I just checked all the Fords and only the Mustang has the tax, which is insane considering a base GT gets 22mpg and has a $1000 gas guzzler tax, and an F-150 crew cab gets 16mpg and is exempt. Oh, and all trucks larger than an F-150, all vans, and all 'commercial trucks' don't even require any type of fuel efficiency rating what so ever. BS.

[sdm1234]

Originally Posted by SteveR

Yup, I just checked all the Fords and only the Mustang has the tax, which is insane considering a base GT gets 22mpg and has a $1000 gas guzzler tax, and an F-150 crew cab gets 16mpg and is exempt. Oh, and all trucks larger than an F-150, all vans, and all 'commercial trucks' don't even require any type of fuel efficiency rating what so ever. BS.

The F150 doesn't even get 16mpg. It's more like 10-12. And you gotta love those turbo diesel trucks... lol

And for this specific average MPG in 2020, people either dont understand or are completely taking it out of perspective. It's only for the new '20 cars (that was wierd to type lol). I still drive my '78 6.6L TA around which gets 11mpg, and this has lasted 30 yrs so far! We have also have a perfectly good '65 Mustang we run around occasionally. That's 43 yrs old! With this new MPG thing going down, it'll only bring back the muscle cars. You just wait... It will be the return of the pony cars, due to restoration! The way I see it, people will bring the older cars back to life. Cheap, quality cars, cheap parts, cheap HP! Long live the F-Body!

[WildBillyT]

Everybody go ahead and stab me for saying this, but I think it's time for the auto manufacturers to quit it with the new age HP wars and come out with a car something that is cheap, ~250hp, and gets 45+ mpg reliably. Right now I don't care about the power of my daily driver, (hell, I don't think I break 3000RPM going to work) I'd rather it was a lot cheaper to operate. That's where I think the buyers will flock to, given the current oil prices.

Then the aftermarket can be responsible for coming out with hot parts to get pleasure vehicle power up, etc which will help boost that industry.

[bad64chevelle]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

And too many people drive vehicles that are too big (suvs, etc.).

HmmmmI guess I fall into that category.

Im proud to say that nothing I own gets over 12MPG...

[Knipps]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Everybody go ahead and stab me for saying this, but I think it's time for the auto manufacturers to quit it with the new age HP wars and come out with a car something that is cheap, ~250hp, and gets 45+ mpg reliably. Right now I don't care about the power of my daily driver, (hell, I don't think I break 3000RPM going to work) I'd rather it was a lot cheaper to operate. That's where I think the buyers will flock to, given the current oil prices.

Then the aftermarket can be responsible for coming out with hot parts to get pleasure vehicle power up, etc which will help boost that industry.

why stab you? i agree. there's no need for it
but then again, there's also the group that uses their toy as a DD

Originally Posted by bad64chevelle

HmmmmI guess I fall into that category.

Im proud to say that nothing I own gets over 12MPG...

i just wanted to say you have the longest sig ever

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Everybody go ahead and stab me for saying this, but I think it's time for the auto manufacturers to quit it with the new age HP wars and come out with a car something that is cheap, ~250hp, and gets 45+ mpg reliably. Right now I don't care about the power of my daily driver, (hell, I don't think I break 3000RPM going to work) I'd rather it was a lot cheaper to operate. That's where I think the buyers will flock to, given the current oil prices.

Then the aftermarket can be responsible for coming out with hot parts to get pleasure vehicle power up, etc which will help boost that industry.

Nope, I agree 100% Already said it.

CAFE = corporate average fuel economy. Google it. It is what we are talking about.

[Iroc-z86]

I agree that the big trucks not getting taxed is bs and how they dont have any pollution control on them. IE diesels do not have any emissions testing, i think safety but thats it.

I think it will be possible to have a decently quick car with good mpgs. my grand prix has a 3.8 v6 and gets avg 25 mpg with city and highway. id say thats really good for such a big car.

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Nope, I agree 100% Already said it.

CAFE = corporate average fuel economy. Google it. It is what we are talking about.

i spend too much time Googling my Yahoo as it is; I'd rather just get the answer.