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10-28-2009, 11:52 AM
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#1
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, NJ
Posts: 1,723
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Help with planning out an engine
I'm planning on taking my 350 block and boring it .060 over and i want to get somewhere in the 500-550hp range and run on pump gas. I have a good bit of money saved up for it and I want to start collecting parts to put it all together. Can someone help me decide on where i should start looking to get more information on what I'm going to have to do? Or tell me what I'm going to have to look at to reach my power gains? IE head flows, compression, domed vs flat top pistons etc...
I'm going to have help from my buddy and his dad who have built several motors for their race cars (dirt track) but I'm just trying to find a broader range of information.
Anything will help, thanks
__________________
1983 camaro- Scrap
1988 camaro- Also scrap
'05 Silverado- You guessed it, scrap
1988 TRX 250R- Ported w/ high compression on 110 octane- Out 60' your LT1
Jersey Shore Street Car Takeover (JSSCT) Founder
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1ow
and once i get PHB, what do i ajust it too?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Mike
Seven.
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10-28-2009, 11:59 AM
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#2
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Mongo the Meet Coordinator
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 16,900
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Planning on spraying or boosting in the future?
Budget?
I don't know how good quality a gen 1 crank is, but you may want to spend the extra money and stroke it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkEvil
repo bigals turd gen and part it out to a loving home
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10-28-2009, 12:04 PM
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#3
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Ayatollah of Rock N Rolla / Admin
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 12,573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTs1ow
Planning on spraying or boosting in the future?
Budget?
I don't know how good quality a gen 1 crank is, but you may want to spend the extra money and stroke it.
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If he's going for 500-550hp he should probably go with an aftermarket crank (maybe a GM forging but I wouldn't trust a GM casting to that level at minimum), and if you are doing that you might as well stroke it.
Wretched, how much $ do you have for this?
Last edited by WildBillyT; 10-28-2009 at 12:05 PM.
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10-28-2009, 12:24 PM
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#4
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Meet Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: brick/pt. pleasant beach
Posts: 19,341
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yeah, what exactly is your budget? it adds up quick. half will probably be bottom end and half will easily be the top end. is 60 over safe on a gen 1? i know its very close on a gen II.
what are your goals besides 500 550hp? what do you plan on doing, drag racing? have you budgeted for the trans, ds, rear, and suspension? supporting mods for motor?
Last edited by sweetbmxrider; 10-28-2009 at 12:24 PM.
Reason: budjet.....haha
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10-28-2009, 12:28 PM
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#5
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Mr Fantastic
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: West Milford NJ
Posts: 7,917
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destroke it...327 and rev to the mooooooon
__________________
Matt
B18B1 FTW
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10-28-2009, 12:49 PM
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#6
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Sliderule / Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Catawissa PA
Posts: 2,294
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Agreed with going 383, much easier to make power with the extra cubes, plus better then going 60 over so you leave room for a rebuild in the future.
From a high level suggestion ( and assuming you looking at running pump gas ).
I would suggest that first you select your heads, the chamber size is going to dictate when piston you select ( pump gas = 9.5 static CR. )
The head flow will influence your cam selection. Making that level of HP N/A is going to require you to spin the engine pretty high, so I would look for heads that have high flow numbers. Maybe look at a set of Brodix or something that can be heavily ported.
__________________
93Z M6 Black: The 385 Lives! Supercharged, 3-core front mount intercooler, GTP heads, 3:73's, Street twin clutch, Jethot Longtubes, Mufflex 4" catback/spintech, S+W cage, Spohn Suspenion, Yada Yada Yada
1) Build it
2) Race it
3) Break it
4) Repeat!!!
Last edited by Pampered-Z; 10-28-2009 at 12:51 PM.
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10-28-2009, 08:00 PM
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#7
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, NJ
Posts: 1,723
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Hopefully like $3 or 4$k is what I'm looking to dump into it. This isn't something that I'm gonna do overnight so i plan on buying a new trans, rear, and driveshaft before the motor goes in. I just want to start looking into how much money I'm gonna need in reality and what I should start looking at
__________________
1983 camaro- Scrap
1988 camaro- Also scrap
'05 Silverado- You guessed it, scrap
1988 TRX 250R- Ported w/ high compression on 110 octane- Out 60' your LT1
Jersey Shore Street Car Takeover (JSSCT) Founder
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1ow
and once i get PHB, what do i ajust it too?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Mike
Seven.
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10-28-2009, 08:06 PM
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#8
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Ayatollah of Rock N Rolla / Admin
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 12,573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wretched73
Hopefully like $3 or 4$k is what I'm looking to dump into it. This isn't something that I'm gonna do overnight so i plan on buying a new trans, rear, and driveshaft before the motor goes in. I just want to start looking into how much money I'm gonna need in reality and what I should start looking at
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You are going to rip through that money overnight. Good heads OR a good rotating assembly are half your budget already.
I'd recommend building a Vortec based 355. Good bang for your buck. Hell, I'm doing it myself.
Last edited by WildBillyT; 10-28-2009 at 08:06 PM.
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10-28-2009, 08:08 PM
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#9
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: barnegat nj
Posts: 1,340
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start with a head & cam package by m2 racing (they use a brodix head w/ there cnc program available in 18 & 23 degree)
there package w/ a eldebrock victor jr. intake and a decent carb (demon or hp) will give you 500+hp on a fresh 350
stroking it to a 383 good for a bunch more torque and some hp also
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10-28-2009, 08:20 PM
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#10
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 540
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I have about $4,000 into my engine (not including mistakes). I put the numbers into desktop dyno and it should have around 500hp. It's a 383 with an Eagle rotating assembley, KB pistons, ~.580 lift solid roller cam, Holley heads and a Victor Jr intake. Can't wait to fire it up
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10-28-2009, 08:33 PM
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#11
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: barnegat nj
Posts: 1,340
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hey, where you get that desktop dyno program? always wanted to check that out
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10-28-2009, 09:00 PM
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#12
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 540
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Found it on a torrent, was also packaged with drag 2003. I put specs in for my friends car and everything was identical to the number his car was pushing, HP,TQ and track times
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10-28-2009, 09:05 PM
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#13
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, NJ
Posts: 1,723
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Thanks for the advice guys
__________________
1983 camaro- Scrap
1988 camaro- Also scrap
'05 Silverado- You guessed it, scrap
1988 TRX 250R- Ported w/ high compression on 110 octane- Out 60' your LT1
Jersey Shore Street Car Takeover (JSSCT) Founder
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1ow
and once i get PHB, what do i ajust it too?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Mike
Seven.
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11-18-2009, 04:20 AM
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#14
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I <3 sheep
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Belmar
Posts: 4,907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.J.SLEEPER
hey, where you get that desktop dyno program? always wanted to check that out
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You can get it from Jeg's/Summit. $49 for the basic version or $99 for the advanced.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru2Chevy
Steve has a thing for sheep....
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'78 Big Wheel- 2FWFP
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11-18-2009, 09:25 AM
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#15
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Ayatollah of Rock N Rolla / Admin
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 12,573
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You can get a 30 day demo of EA pro for free on their site. Blows Desktop Dyno out of the water IMO
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01-04-2010, 11:18 PM
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#16
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12
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Haven't been on this board for a while.. a bit late, but will offer advice anyway You will not be able to make 500-550 hp on a streetable pump gas engine so easy with just a 360ci NA gen I SBC, and that power level would really require a bit of money unless you add some boost. It would be a lot easier with a 400+ci SBC (for 500hp) or 454+ci BBC (for 550hp). 450-480hp is a more reasonable target for 360ci, and even then it would be a fairly healthy street/ pump gas motor.
I dont know your budget, but assuming a tight budget, I would go for a 3.75" stroke Scat crank and make it a 388, 10:1 static compression, Dart 200 or TFS 195 or new big port Vortec heads from GM Performance, about a 238/244@.050 FT solid cam, 1.75" headers, Edlebrock victor Jr. intake and a 750cfm Holley. That may get you close to 500hp.
Think 1.2 to 1.3 hp per cubic inch for a healthy NA motor on pump gas.
mike
__________________
1973 RS Z28: 401ci Dart Little M, Littlefield 8-71 supercharger @14lbs boost, Callies Magnum crankshaft, Lunati Pro-Mod rods, JE pistons, 7.8:1 compression, AFR 227 Comp heads, T&D 1.6 shaft rockers. Reed solid FT cam (240/250@.050, .523/.542 lift, 112 LSA), QFT 750 carbs, Lemons headers, Mezier mechanical water pump, Tremec TKO-500 5-speed, Moser 12 bolt, 33 spline axles & 3.42 gears.
Last edited by Tokyo Torquer; 01-05-2010 at 05:35 AM.
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01-07-2010, 12:01 PM
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#17
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Point Pleasant
Posts: 1,809
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Yeah when I finally get mine together its going to be:
Sportman II heads
268 or 274 comp cam
406 with a SCAT rebuild kit
Victor Junior
750 DP
Should be in the very high 400s on HP and around 525 on torque. The best budget route is to go big cubes and vortecs. Good for 500ftlbs and 425 hp. Check out "The Imitator" Build from one of the major magazines. Just google it.
__________________
-Vinnie
94 2wd SBSC Gmt400. 330CI LSX, Fast 102, Trickflow 205s, close ratio nv3500, 4.30/trutrac.
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01-07-2010, 12:08 PM
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#18
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Ayatollah of Rock N Rolla / Admin
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 12,573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0nin89
Yeah when I finally get mine together its going to be:
Sportman II heads
268 or 274 comp cam
406 with a SCAT rebuild kit
Victor Junior
750 DP
Should be in the very high 400s on HP and around 525 on torque. The best budget route is to go big cubes and vortecs. Good for 500ftlbs and 425 hp. Check out "The Imitator" Build from one of the major magazines. Just google it.
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Coulple of questions. Why the sportsman IIs, and why a victor Jr with a cam that doesn't match its RPM range? An air gap is a better choice to around 6000-6500.
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01-07-2010, 03:02 PM
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#19
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Point Pleasant
Posts: 1,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBillyT
Coulple of questions. Why the sportsman IIs, and why a victor Jr with a cam that doesn't match its RPM range? An air gap is a better choice to around 6000-6500.
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Sportsman IIs only because I'm trying to keep it on the cheap but we'll see what happens. Guy at work is trying to talk me into Dart Iron Eagles.
And the Victor Junior is simple based on the fact that quite a few people I've talked to have preferred the victor junior to the air gap and felt a major lower end loss with the air gap.
Nothing is set in stone though. I'm doing plenty of research before I buy a single thing.
__________________
-Vinnie
94 2wd SBSC Gmt400. 330CI LSX, Fast 102, Trickflow 205s, close ratio nv3500, 4.30/trutrac.
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01-07-2010, 03:03 PM
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#20
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Ayatollah of Rock N Rolla / Admin
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 12,573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0nin89
Sportsman IIs only because I'm trying to keep it on the cheap but we'll see what happens. Guy at work is trying to talk me into Dart Iron Eagles.
And the Victor Junior is simple based on the fact that quite a few people I've talked to have preferred the victor junior to the air gap and felt a major lower end loss with the air gap.
Nothing is set in stone though. I'm doing plenty of research before I buy a single thing.
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Odd since the Vic jr powerband starts at 3500.
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01-07-2010, 04:02 PM
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#21
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Point Pleasant
Posts: 1,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBillyT
Odd since the Vic jr powerband starts at 3500.
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Got me. Havent looked at anything personally yet for intakes. perhaps I have my manifold backwards.
__________________
-Vinnie
94 2wd SBSC Gmt400. 330CI LSX, Fast 102, Trickflow 205s, close ratio nv3500, 4.30/trutrac.
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06-13-2010, 02:35 PM
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#22
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, NJ
Posts: 1,723
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Sooo to drag this on a bit longer I have made a few changes in my ideas and have done a little bit more research into this and hopefully Im a little closer in the direction I need to be. Any criticism is welcome.
First off new goal is 400-450hp, just want a good healthy motor to use in weekend cruising and trying my luck at the track every now and then. I'd like to try and keep my budget around $3500. And also .060 over bore, I figure its just a cheap stock block so why not do the extra bore? So far i have picked out:
Possible heads:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DRT-11310010P/
Possible pistons:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC728-060/
I figure with those two items picked I can get an idea of where I need to go for the valvetrain/cam. I'd like to redline at about 6500 rpm which should be safe enough for a stock rotating assembly
__________________
1983 camaro- Scrap
1988 camaro- Also scrap
'05 Silverado- You guessed it, scrap
1988 TRX 250R- Ported w/ high compression on 110 octane- Out 60' your LT1
Jersey Shore Street Car Takeover (JSSCT) Founder
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1ow
and once i get PHB, what do i ajust it too?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Mike
Seven.
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06-13-2010, 02:50 PM
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#23
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Mongo the Meet Coordinator
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 16,900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wretched73
Sooo to drag this on a bit longer I have made a few changes in my ideas and have done a little bit more research into this and hopefully Im a little closer in the direction I need to be. Any criticism is welcome.
First off new goal is 400-450hp, just want a good healthy motor to use in weekend cruising and trying my luck at the track every now and then. I'd like to try and keep my budget around $3500. And also .060 over bore, I figure its just a cheap stock block so why not do the extra bore? So far i have picked out:
Possible heads:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DRT-11310010P/
Possible pistons:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-IC728-060/
I figure with those two items picked I can get an idea of where I need to go for the valvetrain/cam. I'd like to redline at about 6500 rpm which should be safe enough for a stock rotating assembly
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Erm, a 60 over and new pistons is a pretty deep dive... why not just do it right and get a new crank with new rods?
Seems silly to me to do all that work and not do that.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkEvil
repo bigals turd gen and part it out to a loving home
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06-13-2010, 02:57 PM
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#24
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, NJ
Posts: 1,723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTs1ow
Erm, a 60 over and new pistons is a pretty deep dive... why not just do it right and get a new crank with new rods?
Seems silly to me to do all that work and not do that.
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New crank and rods is a hefty amount to add into the budget so my idea was to save money and run the stock ones. My buddy's dad turned me onto that idea because he has run much more intense setups on stock rotating assemblies
__________________
1983 camaro- Scrap
1988 camaro- Also scrap
'05 Silverado- You guessed it, scrap
1988 TRX 250R- Ported w/ high compression on 110 octane- Out 60' your LT1
Jersey Shore Street Car Takeover (JSSCT) Founder
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1ow
and once i get PHB, what do i ajust it too?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Mike
Seven.
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06-13-2010, 03:00 PM
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#25
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Mongo the Meet Coordinator
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 16,900
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I don't know if this is correct, but a .060 over piston on a stock rod is not a good thing I thought. And yea, I am wrong, at least for LT1 world, aftermarket pistons are lighter.
F = Kg x Piston G's x 9.81m/s^2 x .2248
Stock Piston
@ 6500rpm = .532 Kg x 2720 g's x 9.81 m/s^2 x .2248 = 3191 lbs of F
@ 7000rpm = .532 Kg x 3160 g's x 9.81 m/s^2 x .2248 = 3707 lbs of F
Now switching to a Mahle 4.030 stock replacement piston (5.7" Rod)
@ 6500rpm = .464 Kg x 2720 g's x 9.81 m/s^2 x .2248 = 2783 lbs of F
@ 7000rpm = .464 Kg x 3160 g's x 9.81 m/s^2 x .2248 = 3233 lbs of F
Now going to the 6.0" Mahle piston
@ 6500rpm = .429 Kg x 2690 g's x 9.81 m/s^2 x .2248 = 2544 lbs of F
@ 7000rpm = .429 Kg x 3120 g's x 9.81 m/S^2 x .2248 = 2951 lbs of F
Bret Bauer work ^
Just seems like backwards thinking man, you are gonna pay to have the block cleaned up, bored out etc... a new crank and rods is not that much more. And you will need to re balance it all for the new pistons, so again, why not save up some more and do it all right, and at once?
Scat rods for ~200, and a new crank for ~500 area, ARP hardware in there and you have a stout bottom end.
Also, what are the flow numbers on those heads? Any thoughts on what kind of valvetrain you are gonna be running to shift round 6500?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkEvil
repo bigals turd gen and part it out to a loving home
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Last edited by LTb1ow; 06-13-2010 at 03:23 PM.
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