Losing faith in American cars...

[BigAls87Z28]

Price tag to fix the cat hump was almost as much as it would have cost GM to upgrade the rear axle somwhere in the $150 million area.

Cadillac is getting there but are way off. Germans have always been about their over engineering. Look at the Panzer and Tiger tanks from WW2. Overbuilt and over engineered.
German cars here is America are mostly luxury cars with the exception of VW but even they have a different way about them.
Id say the Aveo has better fit and finish then a 4th gen.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Price tag to fix the cat hump was almost as much as it would have cost GM to upgrade the rear axle somwhere in the $150 million area.

Cadillac is getting there but are way off. Germans have always been about their over engineering. Look at the Panzer and Tiger tanks from WW2. Overbuilt and over engineered.
German cars here is America are mostly luxury cars with the exception of VW but even they have a different way about them.
Id say the Aveo has better fit and finish then a 4th gen.

Overengineering isn't always a good thing. There's an EGR filter on my dad's 930 turbo that's under the entire top end of the engine, back behind the rear seat. You have to take off the intercooler, air box, and a lot of the top end stuff to get to it. On the side of the filter housing? Service bi-weekly.

LOL.

[WiMiMc]

from what i've seen the GM cars in the middle east/china are really nice, check out the lumina and caprice. they're just amazing. seems like GM doesn't care about the American market

[Blacdout96]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Overengineering isn't always a good thing. There's an EGR filter on my dad's 930 turbo that's under the entire top end of the engine, back behind the rear seat. You have to take off the intercooler, air box, and a lot of the top end stuff to get to it. On the side of the filter housing? Service bi-weekly.

LOL.

What will it take to drive that 930, or at least have my wife get a ride in it since I turned her into a big porsche fan now? Please tell me thats a slant nose, oh for the love of god if it is lol.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

What will it take to drive that 930, or at least have my wife get a ride in it since I turned her into a big porsche fan now? Please tell me thats a slant nose, oh for the love of god if it is lol.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Germans have always been about their over engineering. Look at the Panzer and Tiger tanks from WW2. Overbuilt and over engineered.
.

And Germany lost the war to the US and its crappy tanks and crappy cars...

German cars are built to run in Germany. Driving in Europe is a totally different experiance then driving in the US. Hell every taxi and bus in Europe is a Mercedes benz. I remember walking In Nice France on a port call with a buch of Sailors and Marines from the Carrier and every other car we saw was a Lambo or Ferrari. It took us about 1 hr to walk 4 blocks because we were amazed at all the exotic cars we saw. All the French people didnt even give a look at the cars as they passed except for 1 yellow C4 Corvette that caught the attention of just about all the locals. We were amazed. A TPI corvette is a jaw dropper for French people just as a Lambo is to us!

[Blacdout96]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Nice, oh so nice. did he put newer style rims on that? look like they're from a 993. and IMO, that's one of the last truely crazy bat**** Porsche's of all time. that chassis right there, your dad could make a 935 racecar replica since they used them for the sillohuete rules. I like the newer porsches of today, but once again, electronic (just like ferrari and Lambo) are getting in the way of the driving performance, and to me nothing says porsche like a whale tail .

Originally Posted by Slow-V6

And Germany lost the war to the US with its crappy tanks and crappy cars... German cars are built to run in Germany. Driving in Europe is a totally different experiance then driving in the US. Hell every taxi and bus in Europe is a Mercedes benz. I remember walking In Nice France on a port call with a buch of Sailors and Marines from the Carrier and every other car we saw was a Lambo or Ferrari. It took us about 1 hr to walk 4 blocks because we were amazed at all the exotic cars we saw. All the French people didnt even give a look at the cars as they passed except for 1 yellow C4 Corvette that caught the attention of just about all the locals. We were amazed. A TPI corvette is a jaw dropper for French people just as a Lambo is to us!

Come to Laguna Seca for Rolex Reunion next year. same thing happens. a Ferrari 355 ( last true Ferrari) is like a Ford focus there. theres a guy that comes there with a Bugatti Veyron the past couple of years, and people walk by it like is a cavalier, but it's funny to see people gawk at teh Mini Cooper parked next to it. ( P.S. I saw the Veyron S.S. sincethey unveiled it there.......still quiet as a mouse fart, but it can boogy!)

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by WiMiMc

from what i've seen the GM cars in the middle east/china are really nice, check out the lumina and caprice. they're just amazing. seems like GM doesn't care about the American market

the lumina IS what the Pontiac G8 used to be. And they are made in Oz.

[creeper]

my fix for wanting a car that doesn't ride like mush compared to newer German cars: subframe connectors and good shocks. our chassis flex and our shocks are bleh from the factory, fix those two things and it feels a lot better.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by creeper

my fix for wanting a car that doesn't ride like mush compared to newer German cars: subframe connectors and good shocks. our chassis flex and our shocks are bleh from the factory, fix those two things and it feels a lot better.

Dude, the subframe connectors only help so much. I wish another company would come up with something more. To be honest, I don't know why, but the car just doesn't feel solid.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

Dude, the subframe connectors only help so much. I wish another company would come up with something more. To be honest, I don't know why, but the car just doesn't feel solid.

Its a freaking F-body! Thats the way its suppose to be. If you dont like it then why did you buy it?

I cant believe that 8 years after the last F-body that you guys are now realizing that a BMW Handles better then a Camaro.. You know a Lotus handles better then F-bodies as well.. Why couldnt GM make the Firebird handle just like the Lotus?

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by Slow-V6

Its a freaking F-body! Thats the way its suppose to be. If you dont like it then why did you buy it?

I cant believe that 8 years after the last F-body that you guys are now realizing that a BMW Handles better then a Camaro.. You know a Lotus handles better then F-bodies as well.. Why couldnt GM make the Firebird handle just like the Lotus?

relax dude. everyone wants to improve their car, it's why we mod them. Since the time I took possession of it, more than 8 years ago, chassis stiffness has come along way, and all I'm saying is that it would be nice if someone made a solution besides subframe connectors which people still argue whether they even produce a benefit.

And like Keith said, shocks and chassis stiffness go a long way on our cars. Most of the time, they handle better than a BMW when set up properly. I think the issue here though is the overall package, and why GM cheaped out on things such as our ho-hum interior and doo-doo shocks and aging chassis. For example, BMW changes their chassis with every redesign. I'm glad GM is now starting to take suspension tuning seriously though. The CTS and Camaro are prime examples of how far it has come.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

relax dude. everyone wants to improve their car, it's why we mod them. Since the time I took possession of it, more than 8 years ago, chassis stiffness has come along way, and all I'm saying is that it would be nice if someone made a solution besides subframe connectors which people still argue whether they even produce a benefit.

And like Keith said, shocks and chassis stiffness go a long way on our cars. Most of the time, they handle better than a BMW when set up properly. I think the issue here though is the overall package, and why GM cheaped out on things such as our ho-hum interior and doo-doo shocks and aging chassis. For example, BMW changes their chassis with every redesign. I'm glad GM is now starting to take suspension tuning seriously though. The CTS and Camaro are prime examples of how far it has come.

I am fine with my cars. I know there strengths and there weakness. My car has full suspension except for shocks and springs. It handles better then it did stock but I know its limits. I knew when I bought it that it would never handle like a BMW M3 but I didnt care. Yes I like to mod my car to improve it just like you but it seems that you have reached that point were no matter what else you do to your car it will not be what you want it to be.

Pontiac put out the Fiero in the 80's to be a great cornering car. That car lasted what 2 yrs. The US wasnt interested in it and only cared mostly about going fast in a straight line. There were special packages for f-body cornering like the 1LE, Firehawk,Comp T/A but thats what they stayed. Special editions. My 95 Firehawk could handle as well as a 95 Vette but they only made 600 copies. Why? Gm built these cars to what the people wanted. Cheaper fast straight line cars that looked good, handled better then a mustang, and felt like a sports car. Thats my take on them. The reason the interiors are not up to par with BMW and the Shocks are not up to par with BMW is becuase the cars were 20-30k cheaper then a BMW to begin with.

A 91 Firehawk was a 40K plus car brand new and I bet it could handle with a BMW M3. Thats because its closer to a BMW in that aspect. There was also a reason why only 25 or so of them were made. Most people didnt want to drop 40 grand on a F-body.

Just want to make sure I am clear. What your pissed about is that a F-body is not up to the same quality as a BMW and GM never did anything about it. Why would GM make a F-body to BMW specs when they have the Corvette and the Caddies?

[JL8Jeff]

It's a moot comparison because you're not talking about the same class of cars or the same time frame. Then add the cost difference. Who is really going to spend $50K plus for a "well built" performance car when they can spend $25-30K for similar performance? It also depends on what type of driving you like. My dad's Honda Pilot is soft, quiet and is actually pretty quick. I prefer something that lets you feel the road and won't wear soft parts out as quickly. I also prefer being able to take turns at speed without roll. My truck has stiff shocks, sits higher, has bigger tires and plenty of power with decent fuel economy. I wouldn't spend another $10-15K for something soft and quiet with interior gimmicks. A car/truck is transportation, not a full body massage!

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[91chevywt]

I know this thread is about cars, but I have to add that you cannot beat an American made/designed truck. American pickup trucks have dominated the market, rightly so, because they are reliable and get the job done. Sure the Tundra is fine if you like taking your truck to the dealership every month for a new recall. The Nissan Titan is the only import truck that compares with an American truck in my mind. But when you get into 3/4 - 1 ton territory American made is really the only choice. Not to mention the huge market for medium duty and heavy duty trucks that is dominated by American-made and designed iron.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by Slow-V6

I am fine with my cars. I know there strengths and there weakness. My car has full suspension except for shocks and springs. It handles better then it did stock but I know its limits. I knew when I bought it that it would never handle like a BMW M3 but I didnt care. Yes I like to mod my car to improve it just like you but it seems that you have reached that point were no matter what else you do to your car it will not be what you want it to be.

Pontiac put out the Fiero in the 80's to be a great cornering car. That car lasted what 2 yrs. The US wasnt interested in it and only cared mostly about going fast in a straight line. There were special packages for f-body cornering like the 1LE, Firehawk,Comp T/A but thats what they stayed. Special editions. My 95 Firehawk could handle as well as a 95 Vette but they only made 600 copies. Why? Gm built these cars to what the people wanted. Cheaper fast straight line cars that looked good, handled better then a mustang, and felt like a sports car. Thats my take on them. The reason the interiors are not up to par with BMW and the Shocks are not up to par with BMW is becuase the cars were 20-30k cheaper then a BMW to begin with.

A 91 Firehawk was a 40K plus car brand new and I bet it could handle with a BMW M3. Thats because its closer to a BMW in that aspect. There was also a reason why only 25 or so of them were made. Most people didnt want to drop 40 grand on a F-body.

Just want to make sure I am clear. What your pissed about is that a F-body is not up to the same quality as a BMW and GM never did anything about it. Why would GM make a F-body to BMW specs when they have the Corvette and the Caddies?

I came in here to say I disagree with nearly everything you said. I could elaborate, but I'd rather ask, why do you think I'm pissed or hate my car? I haven't said anything implying that.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

I came in here to say I disagree with nearly everything you said. I could elaborate, but I'd rather ask, why do you think I'm pissed or hate my car? I haven't said anything implying that.

I never said you hate your car but its pretty clear that you are pissed that GM didnt do a better job with the 4th gen.

I wish I was pissed off at GM but I accepted what the 4th gens were and still are. I had complaints with the 4th gens when I got my 1st one. Now I am on number 4 and like I said I know what it can and cant do and I am fine with it.

Do I wish that GM would have made a better quality F-body?Maybebut I know that the price would be alot higher then what it was. Instead of starting at 18,000 they would have started at 24,000 like the new camaros. They would have weighed more and probably have been slower with the "better quality and more options". You would still have a rear end issue with a Independant rear end. Bolt ons would more then likely be more expensive as well.

[Mike]

no... he stated that he wishes the AFTERMARKET companies that are making suspension parts for these cars would come out with something more significant than subframe connectors to add chassis rigidity.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by cbrrmike

no... he stated that he wishes the AFTERMARKET companies that are making suspension parts for these cars would come out with something more significant than subframe connectors to add chassis rigidity.

Originally Posted by qwikz28

. I think the issue here though is the overall package, and why GM cheaped out on things such as our ho-hum interior and doo-doo shocks and aging chassis. .

Its been since 1983 with this Chassis and I believe if they were to bring out something aftermarket wise they would have already. I am guessing the reason they havent is that the Majority of F-body owners dont care that there 8,000 car doesnt handle as well as a 50,000 BMW. An aftermarket company would want to sell as much of there product as they can. I remember those double diamond subframe connectors. Do they still make them anymore? The reason I did not buy them is because they cost 400.00. They looked like the best subframe connectors out there. I picked up a set of MAC subframe connectors for 88.00 instead.

[BonzoHansen]

It's not really GM's job to over-engineer the car for the 1% of the owners that want more than stock performance. They need to sell to the other 99% at a profitable rate. The aftermarket has to pick up the torch. Llook at all the cool stuff the aftermarket had ready to go for the 2010 boatmobile, that is how it should be. Even at $35k it is still $20-30k cheaper than a vette, where more engineering goes and whose ownership base has higher expectations.

FWIW, they really didn't start making SFCs for 3rd gens until way later in the run. Or headers. Or anything else of great use. Or you only had fairly expensive options like SLP. The aftermarket was quite slow to address 3rd gens. They didn't know how to deal with EFI or the chassis. Looking at current options, the main players now were not in the game in the late 80s. The older companies did not adapt well and the 3rd gen market was quite under-served and IMO it is a main reason why 3rd gens get a bad wrap. Today that story is different.

Just my opinion growing up through that time. I couldn't get SFCs for my 82 until right before I sold it. I used to call competition engineering every 6 months about SFCs and ask 'when' and they kept saying 'you can't'.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

It's not really GM's job to over-engineer the car for the 1% of the owners that want more than stock performance. They need to sell to the other 99% at a profitable rate. The aftermarket has to pick up the torch. Llook at all the cool stuff the aftermarket had ready to go for the 2010 boatmobile, that is how it should be. Even at $35k it is still $20-30k cheaper than a vette, where more engineering goes and whose ownership base has higher expectations.

FWIW, they really didn't start making SFCs for 3rd gens until way later in the run. Or headers. Or anything else of great use. Or you only had fairly expensive options like SLP. The aftermarket was quite slow to address 3rd gens. They didn't know how to deal with EFI or the chassis. Looking at current options, the main players now were not in the game in the late 80s. The older companies did not adapt well and the 3rd gen market was quite under-served and IMO it is a main reason why 3rd gens get a bad wrap. Today that story is different.

Just my opinion growing up through that time. I couldn't get SFCs for my 82 until right before I sold it. I used to call competition engineering every 6 months about SFCs and ask 'when' and they kept saying 'you can't'.

when did you sell your 82? I'm sorry if I'm asking you to date yourself

[BonzoHansen]

iirc 94

[miketa95]

I gotta say I agree with you. I have always been in love with American cars, my family has always owned them. My first car was a Camaro and my second a Trans Am. They were really fun cars to drive, however not reliable or practical in any way at all. My girlfriend just bought a 2010 Acura TSX and her father just bought a c6 Corvette. The C6 has already been in the shop twice, once because of the traction control broke and another because a spark plug wire came loose. Not big repairs and covered under warranty, but wtf? This is a $50k car. On top of that, the removable top makes the most annoying creaking and groaning. There is no fix for it. Meanwhile the TSX was only $33k, and it starts up and does exactly what it should every single time. I'm not even going to get into the fact that my 06 Silverado has cost me almost $5,000 in stupid bull **** repairs since I've bought it, and I'm still making payments on the peice of ****. I already know I'm not buying another GM truck, and as much as I hate Toyota, I'm beginning to wonder if the Tundra would be as worry free as the TSX.

[miketa95]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

I got to drive the Camaro RS and then two weeks later I drove the CTS coupe.
Even with the CTS being heavier, still drove much better, steering was better, etc etc. But the Camaro drives worlds better then your Trans Am.

.

I've Driven a 2010 Camaro SS too, and I have to say both my girlfriends 2010 TSX (minus the torque steer on heavy acceleration) and my Sister's 03 g35 coupe handle worlds better than that car.

[DevilDougWS6]

Germans are crafty bastards. They were the first to come up with the idea if converting infrared light, which is invisible to the human eye, into visible light on a screen. They had nightvision as early as WWII.