Another reason to not like Bush/ Congress

[BigAls87Z28]

I belive that when Clinton went to attack Bin Laden, it was called a "cop out" and something that was to distract the US from the "real" news, him getting a bj and lying about it. And people did not want US troops in Afganastan. I have a Time Mag poll that has a huge article about Osama back in 2000 or 99, (did it for a project on him before he became famous) and the votes for NOT going into Afganastan or Africa were amazing. Stories about the Russians and another Vietnam was pretty much the basis of going to war in one of these countires.
All I know is the 8 years Clinton was in office, 94 octane gas was a 1.10, and things were great. People were happy, it was a time of peace and everyone enjoyed themselves.
As for Dems wanting the goverment to have more control...just take a look at the reason this thread got started, and other things like the Patriot Act...yeah, that was the Dems that want more control. One of the biggest topics on the hill right now is whats his face going up for the Suprem Court, and one of the big concerns is giving Bush too much power.

I really dont care for politics either, I just call it as I see it. Bush is a dumbass, and he surrounds himself with smart people to prop him up.
Ill never forget "We're gunna smoke'm out" line about "terrorists." They arent friggin gophers you jackass. I really could care Repub or Dem, I just want a smarter and more elequant leader, not this.

[NJSPEEDER]

[QUOTE=Ian]at least when clinton left office, we werent in debt or at war.[QUOTE]

we weren't in debt? the largest percentage expansion of goverment spending in US history and you think we weren't in debt?

you are correct to say we were not at war at the time bill clinton was in office, the down side was that while he was in office congress cut spending and clinton helped push through limitations of US information collection abroad. which means we had less data than we needed when the time came to respond to an attack on our citizens.

seems that some people used to think it was a good idea to learn what the bad people are doing by asking only nice people. the sad part to me is that these measures were carried by both parties. i guess no one wanted to get left out of the dumb.

every president in history has had their flaws, be it from bad decisions, bad information, or political pressures, they all **** something up. the only thing that has changed in the last 20-30 years is the willingness of the media to twist every word and concept into some unthinkable evil doing just to sell a news paper or two.

[Ian]

compare the debt clinton had and the debt bush is still compiling and I think you'll see what I meant. http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLI.../clinton.debt/ at least he was paying some of it back. I have yet to hear of bush making huge payments towards our debt. instead I have a sneaking suspicion that I will never got any of my social security money.

Bush did a decent job of making everyone feel safer after the attacks, but then again, any president would have done the same.

To quickly switch the subject to the war in Iraq, I see it as a MASSIVE failure. we could have gotten the same results using much less man power and it would have cost a lot less. We went against the UN and started a war. we pissed everyone off, yet we were still tip-toeing through the god damn desert. we dont need to police that country and we dont need to stick around to make sure they're okay. kill the bastard thats responsible for the 9-11 attacks and get out. I also hate the idea of forcing our governmental structure upon them. let them do what they want to do.

sorry, I'm done for a little bit.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by Frosty

wait wait wait....please don't EVEN say it's Bush's fault 9-11 happened. If you truely believe that then I have some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

If you REALLY want to get technical you can throw some of the blame at your boy Clinton. HE knew where bin Laden was and KNEW he was a thread and did NOTHING. He could've had him hung by his nuts but he did nothing. Regardless if you like Bush or not to think or say he was responsible for 9-11 is outrageous.

What's next? The economy was strong when Clinton left office?

1) I never said that

2) Bush had that info too

3) I didn't have to worry abotu Clinton listening in on my telephone coversations

4) Clinton didn't basically suspend habeus corpus

5) Is our chillun learnin?

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by Ian

I also hate the idea of forcing our governmental structure upon them. let them do what they want to do.

This is true. Our "democracy" (which is actually a republic" can ONLY work if the people are willing to impliment it, support it, and utilize it.

No matter what we can't force it onto other people... it's not the best for everybody despite what some people think (communism would be if it wasn't impossible due to human nature... but that's for another thread), and no matter how much we force it down their throats it'll collapse when we FINALLY get out of that mess. Whatever form of goverment the Iraqi people can create and maintain will be what works, not what a bully nation imposes on them.

[enRo]

You ****ers shoulda voted for Perot! Or Nader! Independent / Green Party 4 Lyfe! Nader wouldve just wiped his scroat' ballsac with this new signing. Not to mention, if Bill Clinton was president, he wouldnt waste his time with these disgusted citizens by hacking into phone lines... but he wouldve made himself look like an ass by explaining to all the Americans why he was hacking into Brazilian Porn Hotlines

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

1) I never said that

2) Bush had that info too

3) I didn't have to worry abotu Clinton listening in on my telephone coversations

4) Clinton didn't basically suspend habeus corpus

5) Is our chillun learnin?

1) In way yes you did

2) Really? So Bush had that info when Clinton was in office? ..and exactly what could Bush have done in the 90's when bin Hiden was labeled as a "non-threat" after he had his group took credit for worldwide bombings?

3) No arguement there. I agree with you(however how do you know the CIA or anyone else wasn't listening before?

4) I don't know enough about it to have an opinion

5) Agreed again. Republicans as a whole really don't care about education which is a shame.

I'm not going to lie. I voted for Bush. I certainly didn't want John "I can't make up my mind" Kerry in office. However, Bush has made mistakes, I don't like how conservative his administration has gotten and I don't like how he's basically tiptoed around the Constitution(personally I'm dead set against him regarding gay rights and religion(even though I'm religious and pretty spiritual).

To echo what some others have said we need a group of people that care about the actual people and say **** off to the special interest groups. However we have a better chance of going skiing down in hell before that happens.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Ian

cTo quickly switch the subject to the war in Iraq, I see it as a MASSIVE failure. we could have gotten the same results using much less man power and it would have cost a lot less. We went against the UN and started a war. we pissed everyone off, yet we were still tip-toeing through the god damn desert. we dont need to police that country and we dont need to stick around to make sure they're okay. kill the bastard thats responsible for the 9-11 attacks and get out. I also hate the idea of forcing our governmental structure upon them. let them do what they want to do.

sorry, I'm done for a little bit.

It's far from a failure..stop watching CNN and MSNBC. There are a TON of good things going there. Should we be there? That's up for debate. I have mixed feelings. I think the REASONS why we're there should've been stated from the beginning and not covered up by either lies or shakey intelligence information.

But...to put things into perspective. Look at the Middle East. Look at the trouble countries(then again what country isn't trouble in that steaming ********). Now look at Iraq in relation to those said countries. Now tell me why we're there.

[Savage_Messiah]

Habeus Corpus, in a very brief nutshell, is the right to have a reason to be arrested and a set amount of time for charges and such which ties into the right to a timely trial. It was a fundamental principle to the founding fathers.

It was set into place beause of the then-recent memory of people being arrested in the middle of the night without a word said and never being seen/heard from again.

I could and probably should go into more detail but hopefully that will suffice, for now at least, or someone else can chime in.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

Habeus Corpus, in a very brief nutshell, is the right to have a reason to be arrested and a set amount of time for charges and such which ties into the right to a timely trial. It was a fundamental principle to the founding fathers.

It was set into place beause of the then-recent memory of people being arrested in the middle of the night without a word said and never being seen/heard from again.

I could and probably should go into more detail but hopefully that will suffice, for now at least, or someone else can chime in.

No no, I know what it is, I just didn't know what Bush did to change that. Like I said I dont' know enough about that subject to form an educated opinion.

[Savage_Messiah]

Patriot Act.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Frosty

It's far from a failure..stop watching CNN and MSNBC. There are a TON of good things going there. Should we be there? That's up for debate. I have mixed feelings. I think the REASONS why we're there should've been stated from the beginning and not covered up by either lies or shakey intelligence information.

But...to put things into perspective. Look at the Middle East. Look at the trouble countries(then again what country isn't trouble in that steaming ********). Now look at Iraq in relation to those said countries. Now tell me why we're there.

My point is we shouldnt still be there at all. find the MFer, kill him and get out. who gives a f@*k if the country destroys itself, we dont live there. we have enough problems right here at home to be throwing money at a war we're not going to win.

[BigAls87Z28]

Problem is, Ian, its not a "war" and there is no "winning" this.
If anything, we are occupying another country. We are there to oversee and impose force and goverment over a group of people that many do not want us there. And for thoes who say "you dont know what your are talking about, they love us for being there", is that why there are bombs going off, killing 10-20 people at a clip? I guess thats an odd way to show "love" for them.
Nothing for nothing, and Im gunna get flamed for this, but Saddam had these people wrapped up. If soemone farted, and it waffed his way, they were dead. Now I dont agree with the mass killings, and the slaughter, etc etc...but, thoes people were in total fear, and there was none of this. He had the war loards beat back, he had the religious cults seperated. Outside of his invading other countires and starting wars, which is what we did btw, he wasnt that bad of a ruler. Thats what we really need, someone to crack the whip when **** gets out of hand over there. Iraq and America are not the same. Democracy and passing of votes, and having it go through several systems just to do somthing is not what is needed in a land like that. They are not as civilized and they know of a different system.

[Savage_Messiah]

I'm gonna get flamed too but my post #30 in this thread was getting at that same point

[NJSPEEDER]

lol, he killed people randomly, with no sign of a good reason, and supported terrorists who kill innocent people all over teh world..........but he wasn't taht bad. lol
i guess he was jsut misunderstood when he out lawed woman learning to read, and suspended peoples right based on what province they were born in, or killed 3 national team soccer players just because they lost a game. not a bad guy at all. lol

[Ian]

my point was simply kill bin laden and leave. we dont have to give them a government, we dont have to occupy their country and watch over them. I dont care if everyone in that country starts killing one another, thats fine with me. instead of stiring up **** with other countrys and wasting time and money trying for a goal that will never be fufilled, we should focus on our own country and the people that live here. Fix our own country first, is that so F'ing hard?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Ian

my point was simply kill bin laden and leave. we dont have to give them a government, we dont have to occupy their country and watch over them. I dont care if everyone in that country starts killing one another, thats fine with me. instead of stiring up **** with other countrys and wasting time and money trying for a goal that will never be fufilled, we should focus on our own country and the people that live here. Fix our own country first, is that so F'ing hard?

Yup, it was bin Hiden and only him right? So we just leave the Middle East alone and they'll just go away right? Wrong. They hate this country and will do so no matter what we do. That's what happens when religion gets involved.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

lol, he killed people randomly, with no sign of a good reason, and supported terrorists who kill innocent people all over teh world..........but he wasn't taht bad. lol
i guess he was jsut misunderstood when he out lawed woman learning to read, and suspended peoples right based on what province they were born in, or killed 3 national team soccer players just because they lost a game. not a bad guy at all. lol

Yeah, definately someone we should invite to a night out at the track lol

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Ian

my point was simply kill bin laden and leave. we dont have to give them a government, we dont have to occupy their country and watch over them. I dont care if everyone in that country starts killing one another, thats fine with me. instead of stiring up **** with other countrys and wasting time and money trying for a goal that will never be fufilled, we should focus on our own country and the people that live here. Fix our own country first, is that so F'ing hard?

the issues in the middle east are not the result of one person. i do agree that we shouldn't be picking their new form of government for them, but dropping bin laden and bailing would not solve anything.
there are thousands of extremists who would be happy to cut your head off. these are the people we are there to eliminate and damn well should be.
anyone who has the balls to come into our country and try to hit us deserves to ****in fry in hell, and i am glad we have people who are willing to help them with their travel arrangements to hell.
i hate to see our soldiers in the line of fire, if it means protecting millions of americans then that is the way it has to be. they signed up for it, and if you talk to them, most feel they are honestly helping to make the world a better place. i believe they are too, and i will support every single one of them in their efforts.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i hate to see our soldiers in the line of fire, if it means protecting millions of americans then that is the way it has to be. they signed up for it, and if you talk to them, most feel they are honestly helping to make the world a better place. i believe they are too, and i will support every single one of them in their efforts.

A-****in-men!

[NJSPEEDER]

the problem with the US trying to help form a government in Iraq is that it won't solve 2000 year old tribal/ethnic wars.
the culture in that part of the world is still very much about controlling the block, and using it to take over the nation.
our best hope is to take out the leadership that is pissed at the US and leave the people who are just pissed at each other to fight it out amongst themselves.
would it be nice if every country in the world coudl enjoy the representitive democracy we enjoy here? YES!
do i think it is likely to happen or work anytime soon, or ever for that matter? NO!
if through all of this people start to see the glory of freedom and embrace democracy that would be great. if not, at least get the people who hate the US with such passion away from the weapons.

[Frosty]

There are 2 problems I have with us being in Iraq. 1) These people have been at war for centuries, they've hated Christians for centuries. 2) As much as I think every country should be a democracy who the hell are we to tell another country how to run things?(Granted regardless of what anyone says Iraq would've been a threat).

As much as I despise the UN(totally worthless and powerless) one of their officials responded to a question about the problems in the Middle East. He said something like "Problems? There are no problems. Problems always have solutions". Good quote.

[Teds89IROC]

What a lot of people seem to fail to realize about the hacking of the phone lines is it isn't us calling each other; the lines that are being hacked are calls made by suspects making calls outside the US. They're not worrying about average citizens. I'm glad they hack those lines, I wouldn't want to see another 9-11.

~Ted

[JL8Jeff]

If Iraq didn't have oil, nobody would give a crap. They would have no money and no power. So we really can't leave until we know the oil is safe or runs out. Because oil = money = extremists attacking us. I just don't see any way to peace in the middle east during our lifetime. So it comes down to managing the situation the best possible way. Unfortunately, nobody has figured out how to do that yet.

[Frosty]

There will never be peace over there...EVER. We could pull out and never have any dealings with those countries and they'd still hate us. Israel could just up and leave and they'd still hate them...

/rant

I won't say anymore about how else I feel.