Would you vote for this man?

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Ian

because the FBI only deals with matters inside our borders. anything outside is CIA...

he was there tho, remember the 25 mil reward. unless im confused about something. um...

[NJSPEEDER]

i never said they were founded in iraq, just that they were operating regularly from iraq. alqueda and the taliban are not limited by geography, that is one of the issues that has made them so difficult to eliminate.

[Koll]

Originally Posted by Tsar

communism ftw

I wrote a paper on my english final junior year about communism. Went on for about 9 pages on everything about it and why its better.

I got a 90-something.

COMMUNISM FTW.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i don't think he matters much at this point. if he is still alive, he has no place to train troops, no government is willing to hide him, and not many people are willing to follow him anyway.

Oh that makes PERFECT sense, who cares about the one who actually planned out the attack that started this all?? And you must not see how there's a good amount of the world that has hated the U.S. for both our economic strength and our support of Isreal, and now hates us even MORE since our invasion of Iraq. There are certainly people still willing to follow him, and I'll bet there are governments who will gladly turn a blind eye to his hideout.

The afghanistan war (not like it was even a war), that's OK, we had just cause and reason to go in. We did what we needed to and pulled out most troops, and the ones who remain aren't being killed by the people they are there to "protect"

In Iraq we went in to find WMDs... OOPS! Intelligence slipped, they didn't have any! Oh well - we can't be the first administration to attack a country for no reason - let's overthrow Saddam, he's a bad guy. OK, done. Uh oh, what now??? I know, let's forget that there is no one type of government that is best for every nation in the world, try to impose our democratic governement on people who don't want it / can't handle it, and let's die for that too! Yea, we'll keep our boys dying for their freedom when once we finally pull our self riteous heads out of our asses, another dictator will come around and just take over again! What does it matter that our country is falling apart from the inside out, we have to look like the big tough U.S. and kick ass all around the globe! What's that, we're getting OUR asses kicked? OK, let's send in the military reserves now, and the national guard too!! Last time I checked, it was "national guard" not "international guard"

I'm sorry that I can't support a president who feels that it's necessary to stay in Iraq when it's pointless too, and keep kids my age dying for it. And we spend so much money on this war, when me and thousands of kids in other NJ state schools are about to be shelling out a looot more cash for a worse education (due to teachers pay decreasing and benefits dropping, theyre gonna have to cut some and some are definately gonna leave, making for a higher student to teacher ratio)... perhaps (it's a big maybe but still worth thinking about) if we hadn't started this idiotic war or if we don't stay there occupying it for this imperialsitic administration, there'd be some federal money to go towards the schools while NJ tries to balance its budget.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i never said they were founded in iraq, just that they were operating regularly from iraq. alqueda and the taliban are not limited by geography, that is one of the issues that has made them so difficult to eliminate.

uh, the taliban was the governing party in Afghanistan, and we beat the **** out of them.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by Koll

I wrote a paper on my english final junior year about communism. Went on for about 9 pages on everything about it and why its better.

I got a 90-something.

COMMUNISM FTW.

then I assume you know well that communism woud be FTW if it wasn't for peoples inherint greed and unwillingness to let go of power

[Brando56894]

Originally Posted by Koll

I wrote a paper on my english final junior year about communism. Went on for about 9 pages on everything about it and why its better.

I got a 90-something.

COMMUNISM FTW.

Marx's view of communism would be the FTW but the communism that goes on today is FTL. Marx's view of communism would never work because people are too greedy...

as for the american government, theyre just a bunch of **** ups with too much power. i agree with kasey, we attack countries for stupid reasons then get thousands of young men and women killed for no reason that will benefit us. The gov definately goes about things the wrong way, remember that kid elian gonzales? did they really have to bring the swat team in WITH THEIR GUNS DRAWN to take a 7-9 year old kid out of a house??? for christ sake what was he gonna do to them? kick and scream???

the gov is two faced, they make laws about all this stuff and say were not supposed to it and then they go ahead and do it anyway!

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by Brando56894

remember that kid elian gonzales? did they really have to bring the swat team in WITH THEIR GUNS DRAWN to take a 7-9 year old kid out of a house??? for christ sake what was he gonna do to them? kick and scream???

I think you're focusing on the wrong part of that... the gun were drawn because they had the entire cuban population of florida ready to defend the kid lol. The ****ed up part is that this little kid who was the only survivor from his family, IIRC - parents died on the raft or whatever they used to escape, right next to him - was kicked out and sent back by our goverment, making their deaths in vain and their sacrifice for their son's freedom worth nothing.

[JL8Jeff]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

I'm sorry that I can't support a president who feels that it's necessary to stay in Iraq when it's pointless too, and keep kids my age dying for it. And we spend so much money on this war, when me and thousands of kids in other NJ state schools are about to be shelling out a looot more cash for a worse education (due to teachers pay decreasing and benefits dropping, theyre gonna have to cut some and some are definately gonna leave, making for a higher student to teacher ratio)... perhaps (it's a big maybe but still worth thinking about) if we hadn't started this idiotic war or if we don't stay there occupying it for this imperialsitic administration, there'd be some federal money to go towards the schools while NJ tries to balance its budget.

That's where you don't understand the situation. We can't leave Iraq until it has a stable enough gov't and armed forces. If we leave Iraq now, Iraq becomes Iran and that's not a good scenario.

[Brando56894]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

I think you're focusing on the wrong part of that... the gun were drawn because they had the entire cuban population of florida ready to defend the kid lol. The ****ed up part is that this little kid who was the only survivor from his family, IIRC - parents died on the raft or whatever they used to escape, right next to him - was kicked out and sent back by our goverment, making their deaths in vain and their sacrifice for their son's freedom worth nothing.

true, but did they really have to break down the door, storm in, scare the **** outta the kid, and drag him out? im sure there was another way to do it. what im tryin to say is that our government is ****ed up in the way they handle things

[jola]

Originally Posted by JL8Jeff

That's where you don't understand the situation. We can't leave Iraq until it has a stable enough gov't and armed forces. If we leave Iraq now, Iraq becomes Iran and that's not a good scenario.

that's the truth.

there is also something to say about bush's agenda pre-2000 election. mainly, he most likely wanted to overthrow saddam even before terrorism was a concern. i'm not saying this justifies the war in any way, because it doesn't. i'm saying bush is not the stupidest person in the world, and he is surrounded by a few neo-cons that are smarter then everyone on this board. they took a crazy situation and fed on america's fears of terrorism in the middle east and attained a blank check from congress to take over countries of their choice. what was their choice? iraq.

and PS i blame corzine far more for the diluting and price gouging that will characterize NJ public education next year then president bush. NJ has often treated their best student like crap, hence the concern of the "brain drain" - the steady loss of NJ's best and brightest.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jola

that's the truth.

there is also something to say about bush's agenda pre-2000 election. mainly, he most likely wanted to overthrow saddam even before terrorism was a concern. i'm not saying this justifies the war in any way, because it doesn't. i'm saying bush is not the stupidest person in the world, and he is surrounded by a few neo-cons that are smarter then everyone on this board. they took a crazy situation and fed on america's fears of terrorism in the middle east and attained a blank check from congress to take over countries of their choice. what was their choice? iraq.

and PS i blame corzine far more for the diluting and price gouging that will characterize NJ public education next year then president bush. NJ has often treated their best student like crap, hence the concern of the "brain drain" - the steady loss of NJ's best and brightest.

im pretty sure when they were talking about Iraq they were talking about WMDs which dont exist... i still cant put two and two together. i guess im retarded.

[jola]

Originally Posted by Tsar

im pretty sure when they were talking about Iraq they were talking about WMDs which dont exist... i still cant put two and two together. i guess im retarded.

oops, sorry. yea i didn't make the connection. WMD's + terrorists/terrorist states = one of average american's worst fears. whether or not they exist makes little difference if you have a cabinet/CIA capable of altering/creating information that is eaten up by a believing population.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jola

oops, sorry. yea i didn't make the connection. WMD's + terrorists/terrorist states = one of average american's worst fears. whether or not they exist makes little difference if you have a cabinet/CIA capable of altering/creating information that is eaten up by a believing population.

see your equation would work out ok IF Iraq actually had them, but whoopsie they DID NOT! North Korea on the other hand has them and said they would use it, and guess what you are giving them what they want so they dont build more. um..weird how it works out.


ninjaedit* i know i was not scared of iraq being a threat to me, wtf are they gonna do invade the United States? If a country posses no threat to a nation then wtf are you doing attacking them?

oh and way to add stuff to your post... after reading mine.

[Tsar]

add this to my above post.

Makes little difference? wtf? its called a LIE, you know they impeach you for that **** right? see there's that thing where you are not suppose to LIE on that little stand thingy when you're a president. well also invading another country for no reason - well i think thats a crime too. but its obviously ok. lets invade africa now - they have diamonds, and i can use some slaves to cut my grass.

[jola]

Originally Posted by Tsar

see your equation would work out ok IF Iraq actually had them, but whoopsie they DID NOT! North Korea on the other hand has them and said they would use it, and guess what you are giving them what they want so they dont build more. um..weird how it works out.


ninjaedit* i know i was not scared of iraq being a threat to me, wtf are they gonna do invade the United States? If a country posses no threat to a nation then wtf are you doing attacking them?

oh and way to add stuff to your post... after reading mine.

i clicked on edit immediately after i posted, but in the process of editing i had to help someone at work.

i think my equation works out great. why? b/c it worked...we are in iraq! i suppose the question to ask is, do you think bush's top cabinet members/head intelligence people believed saddam was a threat or had WMD's? if you read interviews with bush as a governor or post-9/11 but pre-iraqi invasion documents, they may change your opinion. the point of my original post wasn't to justify going to war, just to throw in a cynical view of why we may be there.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jola

i clicked on edit immediately after i posted, but in the process of editing i had to help someone at work.

i think my equation works out great. why? b/c it worked...we are in iraq! i suppose the question to ask is, do you think bush's top cabinet members/head intelligence people believed saddam was a threat or had WMD's? if you read interviews with bush as a governor or post-9/11 but pre-iraqi invasion documents, they may change your opinion. the point of my original post wasn't to justify going to war, just to throw in a cynical view of why we may be there.

ive heard Bush mumble about WMDs too many times, the first time i heard it i called BS on it. Where the hell are they(Iraq) gonna get them(WMDs)? You've devasted their 70's Soviet army equiptment in the previous war. In the second gulf war they "fought" with tanks from the 80's era their machine guns - **** i can find better ones on the street of Saint Petersburg. Their Air Force consisted of 3 or so mig 21s i believe. Are you trying to tell me that their military "force" was a threat to United States of America? PLEASE!!!

Didnt blair even admit that the whole WMD thing was straight up ********?

[jola]

Originally Posted by Tsar

Are you trying to tell me that their military "force" was a threat to United States of America? PLEASE!!!

lol, no i'm not saying that. we're on two different tracks leading in the same direction here. correct me if i'm wrong, but you are saying, bush was wrong about WMD's and now we are fighting a war for no reason (or not a righteous or legitimate reason). i am saying that maybe bush did it on purpose. maybe bush and his boys (and girl) wanted iraq for a long time and used 9/11 and the presence (real or imagined) WMD's to scare america into war. this would mean that bush lied or was lied to by powerful people in order to fufill a hidden agenda. the point of my original post: maybe, just maybe, bush and the head neo-cons are not idiots, but rather crafty opportunists. now stop arguing with me over points i didn't make. i didn't say anything earth-shattering or right-winged.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jola

lol, no i'm not saying that. we're on two different tracks leading in the same direction here. correct me if i'm wrong, but you are saying, bush was wrong about WMD's and now we are fighting a war for no reason (or not a righteous or legitimate reason). i am saying that maybe bush did it on purpose. maybe bush and his boys (and girl) wanted iraq for a long time and used 9/11 and the presence (real or imagined) WMD's to scare america into war. this would mean that bush lied or was lied to by powerful people in order to fufill a hidden agenda. the point of my original post: maybe, just maybe, bush and the head neo-cons are not idiots, but rather crafty opportunists. now stop arguing with me over points i didn't make. i didn't say anything earth-shattering or right-winged.

ok then u have the same point as i do . he wasn't just wrong, he lied on purpose ...

[jola]

Originally Posted by Tsar

ok then u have the same point as i do . he wasn't just wrong, he lied on purpose ...

lol, good. i hope we can be friends now...even if i am an emo.

EDIT: no, i would not vote for curly.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by JL8Jeff

That's where you don't understand the situation. We can't leave Iraq until it has a stable enough gov't and armed forces. If we leave Iraq now, Iraq becomes Iran and that's not a good scenario.

I see that scenario happening no matter what their condition is when we pull out.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

uh, the taliban was the governing party in Afghanistan, and we beat the **** out of them.

and according to USA Today they are currently operating in 23 countries with agents in about 70 more.
you seem to be forgetting that the taliban is an extremist religious group, not a political party in one country.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

Oh that makes PERFECT sense, who cares about the one who actually planned out the attack that started this all??

do you think he wrote the whole elaborate plan out on a napkin and just handed it off to someone? no, he had a whole bunch of advisors and agents collecting and distributing information.
it prolly wasn't even his idea from teh start. he was just the one with the power to direct whoever coudl execute such a plan. that is how these things usually happen.

[Savage_Messiah]

Let's all go get our life lessons from USA today...

[Ian]

um, the group of terrorists that committed the 9/11 attacks were based and trained out of florida...LETS BOMB FLORIDA!

and so there is no confusion, they were not trained in a military sense, they simply took flying lessons.