4 shot, possibly 41 hostages in NY

[Tsar]

Can't mass murder people without guns?

Remind me how many guns were on board hijacked airplanes on 9/11? If someone wants to kill someone, they will find away.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Tsar

Can't mass murder people without guns?

Remind me how many guns were on board hijacked airplanes on 9/11? If someone wants to kill someone, they will find away.

That was my point. I was also thinking about 9/11. Box cutters were enough that day.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Eh..he would have maybe hurt 1-2 people with a knife, maybe one dead before people beat him down. But with a gun...well, thats a different story.





I dont belive in banning wepons, but this person had both guns registerd and was just another normal human being, and killed 14 people. The police, who also had guns, didnt do jack. the guy killed himself.

IMO, not a great day for gun control.

thats where you lost me. He was not a normal human being. Normal people dont kill others because they lost their job.

maybe society is to blame. maybe if people close to him talked to him about his problems this wouldn't have happened. maybe it would have. impossible to tell.

and as far as it not being a great day for gun control, I respond that it was not a great day because of gun control.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Ian

thats where you lost me. He was not a normal human being. Normal people dont kill others because they lost their job.

maybe society is to blame. maybe if people close to him talked to him about his problems this wouldn't have happened. maybe it would have. impossible to tell.

and as far as it not being a great day for gun control, I respond that it was not a great day because of gun control.

Any day there is a high profile firearm "tragedy" the media always spins it into an anti-gun extravaganza- no matter how wrong it may be. That's bad.

[Ian]

bad day as far as anti-gun media? absolutely! I just meant that if people were allowed to carry, this whole mess might not have happened.

[Frosty]

Al, you're right, if the guy had a knife maybe two people die. Lets look at the bigger picture. The right to own a gun is for the masses to protect themselves. I'm in no way making light of the situation today and my thoughts and prayers go out to the families but it seems like that anti-gun people have tunnel vision. Today will be used as ONE incident where guns are evil and if there weren't any this would have never happened. What about the times where a robber was thwarted or a home invasion was stopped because your ever day citizen had a legal gun and used it the way it was meant to be used. The right is to protect the masses. If you take away that right or severely limit that right the criminals win. The criminals have the upper hand. The police can't always be there for you.

Not to mention that right goes WAY further than protecting yourself from criminals. It was also meant to protect you from a highly powerful government which is only getting stronger. Now I'm not saying we should revolt or join a militia but we shouldn't forget the other meaning of gun rights.

Ian, nice avatar.

[Ian]

Thanks Frosty and well said!

[BigAls87Z28]

First off, no one is above the law and its still illegal to kill someone, no matter what it is. Only in Texas is it ok to protect yourself, and only in your "castle".

What if others had guns? So then it turns into a shoot out with untrained amatures with big guns, shooting at eachother? whos the bad guy? Whos the good guy? How many MORE people die? No one is above the law, and no one there has the right to kill another human.
The cops had guns, and the guy killed a half dozen without a single shot fired by trained professionals. So if cops, an organized group of law enforcement officers didnt fire a single round to end it, what gives regular people the right to do so? And whos to say that people will be ok mentally about taking another life? COD video games are one thing, but in real life, could you? Sure, you can say it now, but Im sure that anyone here that has taken a life has had training. Your average member here would hesitate at teh moment and would end up dying themselves.

Look, Im just playing the aspect of the anti-gun person. I belive that everyoen has the right to own a gun. I dont belive that everyone needs to CARRY the damn thing, or that people need sub machine guns with drums of ammo. I dont see the need to have a .50 sniper rifle be legalized. I belive in a reformed gun control, and that people should be educated and not just be shunned. But gun control is like sex education, there is general idea of how things are done, but not one is really sure what the hell is going on.
It leads to a larger and greater problem.
IMO, if it was Pres Big Al at the podium, gun control would be on the back burner for a long time. Gun contorl is a distraction issue IMO. No one will take them away 100%, but no one is gunna give you 100% access to everything.
It will be in the gray area forever. Education is 10003403284032804 more important then the right to own a AR-15 with a 50 round drum with night vision, supressor, and colapsable stock.

[Knipps]

Home defense laws exist outside of TX iirc

[Ian]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

First off, no one is above the law and its still illegal to kill someone, no matter what it is. Only in Texas is it ok to protect yourself, and only in your "castle".

it is perfectly legal to kill someone if you are "in fear of your life" within your home. Texas and Florida both have the "castle doctrine". In Texas it can also cover protecting others. For example, in Texas if you saw someone pull a gun on someone else, you are legally allowed to draw and fire on that person.

What if others had guns? So then it turns into a shoot out with untrained amatures with big guns, shooting at eachother? (who's to say the "good guys" are untrained?) whos the bad guy? Whos the good guy? How many MORE people die? No one is above the law, and no one there has the right to kill another human. If my life is in danger, I should be allowed to take whatever action I can to preserve it. I have unalienable rights same as the next person. life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The cops had guns, and the guy killed a half dozen without a single shot fired by trained professionals. So if cops, an organized group of law enforcement officers didnt fire a single round to end it, what gives regular people the right to do so? the police were not in the building with the shooter, they arrived to a possible hostage situation. entering the building would only put the possible hostages at risk. its a very bad situation all around. I'm sure if the police were able to get a shot off at the gunman, they would have. And whos to say that people will be ok mentally about taking another life? COD video games are one thing, but in real life, could you? Sure, you can say it now, but Im sure that anyone here that has taken a life has had training. Your average member here would hesitate at teh moment and would end up dying themselves. that is up to each individual to decide for themselves. if you feel you wouldn't be able to take a life to save your own or someone elses, dont carry a gun. its really that simple. why would someone carry a gun if they had no intention of using it to defend themselves?

Look, Im just playing the aspect of the anti-gun person. I belive that everyoen has the right to own a gun. I dont belive that everyone needs to CARRY the damn thing, or that people need sub machine guns with drums of ammo. I dont see the need to have a .50 sniper rifle be legalized. you're right, not everyone needs to carry a gun, but that shouldn't mean the people that want to should be denied. I dont really have a solid opinion about submachine guns, I dont see the purpose of having one, but who am I to tell someone what they can buy with their money. Same goes for .50 caliber rifles. I do think its pretty trivial to have magazine capacity restrictions for hand guns and semi auto rifles. Mag capacity isn't gonna save anyones life and you're a fool if you think otherwise. it takes seconds to change a mag, and with all the citizens being unarmed, there is no one to shoot at the gunman while their reloading. I belive in a reformed gun control, and that people should be educated and not just be shunned. But gun control is like sex education, there is general idea of how things are done, but not one is really sure what the hell is going on.
It leads to a larger and greater problem.
IMO, if it was Pres Big Al at the podium, gun control would be on the back burner for a long time. Gun contorl is a distraction issue IMO. No one will take them away 100%, but no one is gunna give you 100% access to everything.
It will be in the gray area forever. Education is 10003403284032804 more important then the right to own a AR-15 with a 50 round drum with night vision, supressor, and colapsable stock.whats the big deal about collapsible stocks anyway? it doesnt make the weapon any more lethal than it is with a fixed stock...

...

[Frosty]

Al, just curious. What would gun control have done to stop yesterday's incident? Just curious.

[LTb1ow]

Tougher to have gotten the two pistols and tougher to get ammo for them.

They should really just have a better screening process, I would be ok with that.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

Tougher to have gotten the two pistols and tougher to get ammo for them.

They should really just have a better screening process, I would be ok with that.

I could go to newark and get a pistol TODAY if I wanted to (illegally), gun laws dont affect criminals.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

Tougher to have gotten the two pistols and tougher to get ammo for them.

I buy ammo online, probably from Texas. They ship it to my door

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Tsar

I buy ammo online, probably from Texas. They ship it to my door

I do too, and not just a box of 50 rnds either

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Ian

I do too, and not just a box of 50 rnds either

I think last time I got 400, but it's been awhile.


I think people that argue for gun control need to go to a country that has one, and live there for a little. I volunteer Russia, because I'm quite familiar with it. Don't be surprised when you run into dudes with AK-47's

[98tadriver]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Eh..he would have maybe hurt 1-2 people with a knife, maybe one dead before people beat him down. But with a gun...well, thats a different story.

IMO, not a great day for gun control.

what if he had throwing knives like that mexican guy in desperado? he was pretty good

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

Tougher to have gotten the two pistols and tougher to get ammo for them.

They should really just have a better screening process, I would be ok with that.

See one of my previous posts and what Ian said...

It just so happens that these guns were legally registered in this case. The NE corridor is the worst in the country as far as illegal guns go. Between DC, Philly and northern NJ you could EASILY obtain an illegal gun.

Sooooo who is to say that if this guy couldn't get his guns legally that he wouldn't have just bought a few from Paco on the street corner?

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Sooooo who is to say that if this guy couldn't get his guns legally that he wouldn't have just bought a few from Paco on the street corner?

This reminds me of something. Last year he had a French exchange student here, we were hiking on day and somehow got to talking about guns. I said I had one, and she just had that "holy ****balls batman" look on her face. So I asked her what's up - her response baffled me. She said only bad people have guns.... guns in France are not legal. So what is wrong with her statement?

[LTb1ow]

Bad guys run law abiding citizens?

[sweetbmxrider]

i think people should stop being pussies. though i have never been in a situation like such, i know a box cutter isn't stopping me. i cut myself with those all the time (by accident, no emo****!)

[NastyEllEssWon]

banning guns will just keep guns away from those that follow laws. taking guns away from law obiding citizens will just make it easier for things like this to happen.



scenario in ny if guns were more commonplace:



guy bursts in job he lost. Fires shot kills one person. Someone off to the side pulls their gun and lodges one in his temple. Day over.


Tragic? Indeed. Catastrophe? its not

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

banning guns will just keep guns away from those that follow laws. taking guns away from law obiding citizens will just make it easier for things like this to happen.



scenario in ny if guns were more commonplace:



guy bursts in job he lost. Fires shot kills one person. Someone off to the side pulls their gun and lodges one in his temple. Day over.


Tragic? Indeed. Catastrophe? its not

Since Al has not replied I shall take his lead as anti gun. In your scenario you depend on some ordinary citizen to pull out a gun, in a stressful environment and somehow pull off a head shot?

Cmon now, you can't be serious.... That would just turn into a nightmare both for the cops entering and the people inside, whom if all had guns prob would just be havoc.

[sweetbmxrider]

yeah who is going to be able to distinguish the good citizen from the bad guy? what if he misses and kills another bystander then someone else shoots at him thinking they're an accomplice? yeah gooooooood luuuuuuccckkkk

[NastyEllEssWon]

since the common misconception that guns are bad has been a stigma since the late 70s (thanks for nothing hippies) i can see someone being uncomfortable with a handgun.



now imagine this year they repeal bans on carrying a concealed REGISTERED LEGAL weapon and the bigwigs adopt the GUNS ARE GOOD slogan. what happens?

the next generation growing up will be comfortable around guns and have grown up around them. i shot my first gun was i was 10 years old and by no means am i professional, but im comfortable and steady enough to lodge a few well aimed shots.


its just how people grow up. the same arguments here can be made for some other things that are illegal but shouldnt be.