Rumsfeld is stepping down....

[NJSPEEDER]

tsar, north korea has very limited ability to hit a target witrh a warhead. yes, they do have better war heads, but the payload delivery is an issue they still have to contend with. without an effective payload system, they are still only an immediate threat to the nations they live next to that have less nuclear technology. we also live with teh grand advantage of them not being dumb enough to **** with us, cause they don't have teh fire power in teh arsenal to level us, but we can turn them to dirt several times over.

you also don't seem to have any grasp of the concept of time. comparing modern times to how governments acted 200 years ago is idiotic. would you also like to briong up the world wide slave trade and the fact that every other european nation that tried to expand throughout the "new world" leveled tribes too? cause then we coudl jsut past over england, france, spain, italy, portugal, sweden, and russia for the people they killed/enslaved/displaced too.

i wonder if my lack of world travel means i have never heard of the reputation of american toursits? umm, yeah, i pickeed up on that one. shoudl we also talk about the tourists i ahve dealt with and the people from other countries i see all teh time and the way they act? cause there are a lot of ******** from a lot of different parts of the world that we could have discussions about.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Ian

if you want to hunt terrorists, good, I'm all for it. but the way our administration has gone about it is costly and ineffective at best.

this is a statement that i completely agree with. the need and desire to live in a safe and powerful nation calls for our military to be proactive in seeking out the extremists before they come to us.
it woudl be difficult on the best day to say there is an easy way to eliminate or at least limit the actions of some of these groups. the diplomatic policies of George teh first, willy clinton, and GW have all been weak in dealing with the supply lines of arms and finances from right here at home to those who woudl seek to destroy us.
the biggest problem i see in trying to deal with terrorism without a strong military force is that these people have such little regard for human life. you can really see the difference between a belief and crazy when some retard walks into a crowded shopping area and detonates the bomb he is wearing, killing himself and all around without regard for who does or doesn't agree with their point of view.

[NJSPEEDER]

there is one thing that i am surprised has not come up in this whole debate, the habit of the US to try to impose our form of government on other nations.
from some quick research i have come up with 21 instances of america trying to hand stack a representative democracy in other countries. so far this ongoing adventure has only lead to one successful government that stood for more than 20 years, our own. lol
you wold think after glorious failures like cuba and bosnia our government would be smart enough to jsut sit back and help as a police force in these troubled areas and help those who will be governed sort it out instead of telling them how they are going to sort it out.
some of the countries that we went into did eventually turn to some form of democracy, but it was something they came to in their own time. it is arrogant of this administration, just like all the ones that tried before, to think that we have the only governmental solution that is valid in the world. especially when we are dealing with areas of the world that have had ongoing clan/tribal/ethnic wars for longer than our country has existed.

[enRo]

This is why i flunked history class in high school

My opinion... yank troops out of Iraq... let Iraq carbomb itself into oblivion instead of our soldiers... wait a cpl years until the population is cut in half, THEN air it on TV. Simple solution. On a serious note... I really dont see Iraq as a threat anymore without Saddam in power, which is why we shouldve withdrawn our troops the second we cought him. Let them pick out their government on their own... they had to when middle easterners made Iraq into a civilization in the first place, am i correct? Why arent we invading Cuba? They might not have WMD and the cigar prices might jump a bit, but hey, Fidel is a dictator too, right?

BTW, Politics suck.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

tsar, north korea has very limited ability to hit a target witrh a warhead. yes, they do have better war heads, but the payload delivery is an issue they still have to contend with. without an effective payload system, they are still only an immediate threat to the nations they live next to that have less nuclear technology. we also live with teh grand advantage of them not being dumb enough to **** with us, cause they don't have teh fire power in teh arsenal to level us, but we can turn them to dirt several times over.

you also don't seem to have any grasp of the concept of time. comparing modern times to how governments acted 200 years ago is idiotic. would you also like to briong up the world wide slave trade and the fact that every other european nation that tried to expand throughout the "new world" leveled tribes too? cause then we coudl jsut past over england, france, spain, italy, portugal, sweden, and russia for the people they killed/enslaved/displaced too.

i wonder if my lack of world travel means i have never heard of the reputation of american toursits? umm, yeah, i pickeed up on that one. shoudl we also talk about the tourists i ahve dealt with and the people from other countries i see all teh time and the way they act? cause there are a lot of ******** from a lot of different parts of the world that we could have discussions about.

My problem with north Korea is that, they actually have WMDs but Iraq did NOT. yet you still attacked it.

Ok, lets dismiss the old stuff for a second, what about use of Depleted Uranium (DU) in Yugoslavian and first Gulf war? that ive mentioned earlier? or is that going back too far for you too? even I STILL remember those wars, and i was a kid so it wasnt that long ago.
Maybe you need a little refresher course on what depleted uranium does?

DU contaminates land, causes ill-health and cancers among the soldiers using the weapons, the armies they target and civilians, leading to birth defects in children.

Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project said: 'There is a moral point to be made here. This war was about Iraq possessing illegal weapons of mass destruction -- yet we are using weapons of mass destruction ourselves.' He added: 'Such double-standards are repellent.'

According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'.

are you above the law too?

DU has been blamed for the effects of Gulf war syndrome -- typified by chronic muscle and joint pain, fatigue and memory loss -- among 200,000 US soldiers after the 1991 conflict. The use of DU has also led to birth defects in the children of Allied veterans and is believed to be the cause of the 'worrying number of anophthalmos cases -- babies born without eyes' in Iraq. Only one in 50 million births should be anophthalmic, yet one Baghdad hospital had eight cases in just two years. Seven of the fathers had been exposed to American DU anti-tank rounds in 1991. There have also been cases of Iraqi babies born without the crowns of their skulls, a deformity also linked to DU shelling. A study of Gulf war veterans showed that 67% had children with severe illnesses, missing eyes, blood infections, respiratory problems and fused fingers.

The Pentagon has admitted that *320 metric tons* of DU were left on the battlefield after the first Gulf war. In 1991, the Allies fired 944,000 DU rounds or some 2700 tons of DU tipped bombs. A UK Atomic Energy Authority report said that some 500,000 people would die before the end of this century, due to radioactive debris left in the desert.

is that contemporary enough, or is that outdated too?
*I'm willing to convert tons into pounds for any retard that doesn't know metric system.


Your lack of travel around the world shows your lack of first hand knowledge about other peoples culture, and how they operate and think. Its actually pretty simple and self explanatory and i would compare that argument to taking sex advice from a virgin.

[NJSPEEDER]

my lack of world travel only shows that i am not rich and that i haven't come across the opportunity to travel. it has nothing to do with my ability to read about and comprehend what is going on in the world. using it as a basis for being an expert on the world woudl go further to show that you are narrow minded and don't believe that anyone can thik for themselves.

i certainly do remember the gulf war. i can tell you for a fact that when it started i was at a shooting range in flemington(Hunterdon Rifle and Pistol Club, Junior Club Weekly Meet). it was a normal night and i was 15 years old, at least it was normal until i mom came to pick me up and told my brother and i that we were at war. with a cousin on the ground and older friends enlisted, it was hardly a comfortable feeling and definately not one i will ever forget.

also, all of the elements of WMD's were found in Iraq by the UN inspection teams in Iraq. they found things even after Iraq went through every possible tactic to stall and delay inspections too. do you think they were workin on baking a cake and jsut happened to stumble across this stuff? maybe, or maybe they were trying to assemble a nuclear warhead and delivery system.

i do not understand why you are pointing at me for this. am i above the law? no, never said that i was. i also was never in the military and never acted as a military adviser to a president. so it doesn't look like i am the one to hold accountable for that.

information about radioactive tipped weapons has been out since long before the first gulf war. some sources say that it is enough to kill millions, others say that the area that it is spread out over and the conditions under which it is used make it harmless. you can find information from either side of that argument if you care to look around a little.

i don't agree with the use of any nuclear based weapon personally. i know what it does in large part though, how it effects the enviroment, how it effects birth rates, how it effects mental and physical development in children, how it effects life expectancy, and what it can do to the human body. why would i know that? cause i went to college and had to write a paper on it for a chemistry class.

[jimmyboy8301]

Originally Posted by LuvMyF8LWS6

Rumsfeld was hot when he was younger. I did a google image search of him!

dear lord

[Ian]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

there is one thing that i am surprised has not come up in this whole debate, the habit of the US to try to impose our form of government on other nations.
from some quick research i have come up with 21 instances of america trying to hand stack a representative democracy in other countries. so far this ongoing adventure has only lead to one successful government that stood for more than 20 years, our own. lol
you wold think after glorious failures like cuba and bosnia our government would be smart enough to jsut sit back and help as a police force in these troubled areas and help those who will be governed sort it out instead of telling them how they are going to sort it out.
some of the countries that we went into did eventually turn to some form of democracy, but it was something they came to in their own time. it is arrogant of this administration, just like all the ones that tried before, to think that we have the only governmental solution that is valid in the world. especially when we are dealing with areas of the world that have had ongoing clan/tribal/ethnic wars for longer than our country has existed.

actually I did touch upon that subject and I agree with you that the US should stop trying to force our governing system upon other nations.

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by Ian

actually I did touch upon that subject and I agree with you that the US should stop trying to force our governing system upon other nations.

that being the case what do you suggest the USA do when a rogue country confronts America --- all i have read from most is what we are doing is no good --- if you can point a finger knowing thats its wrong -- show me what would you do or what do you think we should do exactly not fluff and grandstanding -- jz

[NJSPEEDER]

show me what would you do or what do you think we should do exactly

what the US should do is what is actually written in the UN charter. that is to bring together leaders of the waring factions adn explain to them the systems of governement, methods of lands division, and methods of resource sharing that can help them.
the idea is to offer as much info as possible to the most influential leaders and then have them sitting down and start working on it. a panel of international representatives would be there to assist.
in the mean time the UN woudl assmble a "peace keping" force and help to lead the nation and it's people based on international human rights law until a formal government and legal system is adopted.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Ian

actually I did touch upon that subject and I agree with you that the US should stop trying to force our governing system upon other nations.

reread, must have missed it the first time through

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

what the US should do is what is actually written in the UN charter. that is to bring together leaders of the waring factions adn explain to them the systems of governement, methods of lands division, and methods of resource sharing that can help them.
the idea is to offer as much info as possible to the most influential leaders and then have them sitting down and start working on it. a panel of international representatives would be there to assist.
in the mean time the UN woudl assmble a "peace keping" force and help to lead the nation and it's people based on international human rights law until a formal government and legal system is adopted.

THEIR IS NOTHING IN WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN I DONT AGGREE WITH -- BUT I DO NOT THINK THE WARING MUZZYS WHO HATE EACH OTHER AND KILL EACH OTHER FOR ANY REASON -- WILL BE AFTER THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF WARS -- WILL SIT DOWN FOR PEACE TALKS -- THAT WONT BE HAPPENING ANY TIME SOON -- THE REASON THE FIRST GULF WAR WAS TO GET THEM TO TALK AND CHANGE -- JZ

[NJSPEEDER]

the basis of thefighting with in the middle east is not a religious. it is tribal, ethnic, and social.
eventually every group at war figures out that peace is the better idea and sits down. it jsut takes longer in less developed nations because they simply don't have the information or resources that would help them seek out alternatives.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

that being the case what do you suggest the USA do when a rogue country confronts America --- all i have read from most is what we are doing is no good --- if you can point a finger knowing thats its wrong -- show me what would you do or what do you think we should do exactly not fluff and grandstanding -- jz

constructive intervention and mediation. those are the things the US should be doing. dont go to someone elses country and tell them their way of life is wrong based on the fact that its not what our country does. in a war torn part of the world, democracy stand little chance of surviving. let them handle their own situations.

the US didn't like the way the brittish were running things so we fought for what we believed in. the people in the middle east are doing the same. I'm sure some of the iraqis want us there, but there are others that want us out. its their counrty, not ours. they have a right to run their country the way they see fit. we have no right trying to overtake them and setup our form of government for them.

If we had invaded them because they were fighting with eachother uncontrolably, I might think differently about the situation. But we went there looking for WMD, didnt find any and decided to change every aspect of their world for our benefit. sounds very irrational to me.

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by Ian

constructive intervention and mediation. those are the things the US should be doing. dont go to someone Else's country and tell them their way of life is wrong based on the fact that its not what our country does. in a war torn part of the world, democracy stand little chance of surviving. let them handle their own situations.

the US didn't like the way the brittish were running things so we fought for what we believed in. the people in the middle east are doing the same. I'm sure some of the iraqis want us there, but there are others that want us out. its their counrty, not ours. they have a right to run their country the way they see fit. we have no right trying to overtake them and setup our form of government for them.

If we had invaded them because they were fighting with eachother uncontrolably, I might think differently about the situation. But we went there looking for WMD, didnt find any and decided to change every aspect of their world for our benefit. sounds very irrational to me.

IF THE REASONS YOU GAVE WERE THE ONLY ONES IN THE MIX EVERYONE WOULD HAVE TO AGREE -- THE PROBLEM IS OUR GOVERNMENT AND NO NEWS OUTLET GIVES US THE REAL DEAL - WE ARE FED WHAT IN THEIR OPINION IS WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW -- JUST LIKE THE PROFESSORS IN SCHOOL -- ON A NEED TO KNOW BASES AND YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW IN THEIR OPINION -- THE SADDAM'S ARMY DID IN FACT GAS ITS OWN PEOPLE -- THEY DID IN FACT SHOOT SCUDS AT OTHER COUNTRY'S ( WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN IN THEM ) IS A TOPIC YOU CANT IGNORE KNOWING WHAT THEY DID TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE -- AT THIS POINT SOME OF THE GUYS ON THIS POST WILL BE LOST AND POINT FINGERS -- YOU HAVE THE FLOOR YOU MAKE A LOT OF GOOD ARGUMENTS - BUT TO ME AND SOME OTHERS ITS ONLY 1/2 THE STORY -- I CAN ONLY HOPE THE CHANGE IN THE GOVERNMENT AS OFF LATE DOES NOT HAVE A NEG AFFECT ON OUR ABILITY TO DEFEND OURSELVES -- ONLY TIME WILL TELL -- SO MY TAKE IS AS HAS BEEN SAID YOU CAN NOT ASSUME ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN TO US IT HAS -- BEING THE TWIN TOWERS TWICE THE FIRST TIME I REMEMBER HEARING IT WAS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT ON THE DRIVE BUY MEDIA -- THE HAND CARRIED NUKE ONTO A SUBWAY IN THE CITY IS OR SOME BIO LAB 2 MILLION DEAD IN A WEEK THING -- I HAVE READ IRAK DIDN'T ATTACK US -- TO ME AND OUR SYSTEM OF OF LAWS -- ONE GUY CARIES A GUN INTO A STORE BOTH GET CAUGHT AFTER THE CLERK DIES BOTH ARE GUILTY OF MURDER -- SADDAM FINANCED SCUM POSING AS MUZZYS TO KILL 3000 PEOPLE AND QUESTIONABLE AMERICANS CITIZENS DISAGREE -- NO DUDE THEY ARE BOTH GUILTY -- I AM AND NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYONES MIND ON THIS ALL THIS DOES IS SHOW EACH OTHER HOW DIFFERENT WE SEE THE SAME THINGS -- JZ

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

there is one thing that i am surprised has not come up in this whole debate, the habit of the US to try to impose our form of government on other nations.
from some quick research i have come up with 21 instances of america trying to hand stack a representative democracy in other countries. so far this ongoing adventure has only lead to one successful government that stood for more than 20 years, our own. lol
you wold think after glorious failures like cuba and bosnia our government would be smart enough to jsut sit back and help as a police force in these troubled areas and help those who will be governed sort it out instead of telling them how they are going to sort it out.
some of the countries that we went into did eventually turn to some form of democracy, but it was something they came to in their own time. it is arrogant of this administration, just like all the ones that tried before, to think that we have the only governmental solution that is valid in the world. especially when we are dealing with areas of the world that have had ongoing clan/tribal/ethnic wars for longer than our country has existed.

dude I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THE ENTIRE DAMN TIME!!!

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO CHANGE ANYONES MIND ON THIS ALL THIS DOES IS SHOW EACH OTHER HOW DIFFERENT WE SEE THE SAME THINGS -- JZ

Yea, I finally agree with you over something

[Batman]

Wow I just started reading this thread, pretty heated stuff. The only thing I am going to say is that a good chunk of you need to open your eyes a little and stop listening to the Communist News Network....err I mean CNN. Reading alot of your posts it almost shames to see how indoctrinated most of you have become by what you see on TV (like 85% of the US). I've been to ALL the places you guys are talking about and let me tell you it is nothing like you see on TV. I'm not going to tell you who to vote for or like because as far as I am concerened the all have an agenda and work it to their means. But if you can honestly tell me Afghanistan was better off witht he Taliban in charge and Irag with Saddam then you are a fool. I encourage you to take aride across the river to manhatten and look at the gargantuan hole in NYC and think about the 3000+ people that died(18 of mmy friends and colleagues BTW) and tell me we aren't better off with those regime's out of power? I would much rather fight these bastards all over the world then in my backyard. None of you will be happy till someone parks a Nuke in downtown Baltimore and kills 5 million people then you will all realize they want to kill YOU, YOUR FAMILIES, YOUR KIDS hell probably even your dog. And id doesn't matter if you think they are getting a bum rap. First chance they get they would gladly cut off your head and sell it on Ebay. Whether the decision was right or wrong doesn't matter now, it is in the past and can't be changed. We need to finish what we starte. Stop listening to the propaganda and take a good look at the world. Most of our parents and grand parents (WWII era) are disgusted with the lack of backbone this country has now and eventually our "Political correctness" and be nice to everybody attitude is going to kill this country because guess what? we are the only ones reading from that book. So keep your skewed views of the world and your TV spoonfed political beliefs because dammit it's a free country and as long as people like ME and not people like most of you are willing to stand up, no matter what and at whatever cost for it, it will continue to be free.


PS: I seem to remember another war kind of like Iraq, lots of Guerilla warfare, thousands dead on both sides and it dragged on for years and years.Maybe you have heard of it? No not Vietnam. I think it was called the American Revolution?But what do I know, I am going to go turn on the news to see what is REALLY happening

[johnjzjz]

It takes someone who has been their to have the kind if understanding you express -- it is the reason in Israel they have a military that is one hundred percent of the boys and girls i think 18 must join no matter what you think you believe -- everyone is taught combat everyone and all are used by their government in those rolls -- no one has an excuse not to serve OR FIGHT -- this country did the same thing - you are with us or you are with them and you are dead 200 years ago -- the drive buy media is - and the higher education liberals in school are at fault for their mind set -- ( THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO ) comes to mind -- and with my writings they - so as to make believe they don't understand or just throw slander -- shame you will have to be the one to brake it to them -- and they will turn on you as well -- two minutes in a combat zone and all their soap box education will be thrown aside and they will be looking for a real combat solder to hide behind -- you be carefully if you end up back in the zone stay sharp LRB -- AIRBORNE

[Batman]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

-- you be carefully if you end up back in the zone stay sharp LRB -- AIRBORNE

Thanks, heading out that way Friday.