Heads Up

[BMF]

consider a .500 pro tree instead for everything but the fastest class.

I dont know any cars in the 10.00 and slower range off hand that can hit a .400 pro tree.

I think you're going to find alot of people are scratching there heads when it comes to the reaction times.

[Batman]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

for pure street we are looking at a single CID limit and a small block based field. that is why we are looking at a single weight minimum in that class.
one thing we are still working on is finding a good way to check CID without too much trouble/time.

FOR PURE STREET:

Unfortunately I don't hink there is really going to be a 100% fair way to get pure street even and have it be "Pure street". What if someone shows with a big block camaro or a first or second Gen bird with a Pontiac engine (also big blocks)? They can't race because it is a big block and it may be closer to stock then most of the mouse motors. I think it needs to be cars with no power adders with their original equipment with nothing more then bolt ons. And a single weight limit is going to tip the scales in favor of the 4th Gen's with the LSx based engines.

I think Pure street should have the following:

For V8 cars:
Stock style Suspension
full interior
Street tires
Engine with stock heads (unported), cam and displacement for the year car it is in
BOLT ONS ONLY!
Car must be within 100# of it's weight on the registration (no reason to add 300# to a 3rd gen to make it weigh the same as a 4th when the 4th already has an advantage over most 3rd gen's)

For V6 cars:
Same as above except give them nitrous OR non stock internals and heads, forced induction would be iffy unless the car was originally equipped with it
250# weight advantage, 100# if you use a power adder


If you can't run your car in those kind of rules and be competetive go to another lane and bracket race. It isn't fair to exclude something like a TTA or a big block 69 camaro that is in truly street trim because other cars aren't as fast. This is the heads up category, if you can't keep up go home. Also with the concessions made to the V'6ers if you run a truly street category it will be close to fair because there is next to no full weight bolt on V8 car that is going to hit 11's, most are going to be 12.5 or slower. Personally I don't agree with comparing apples to oranges and if it was up to me I would make a V6 class but there just won't be enough of you to fill it up (I don't think). I don't like the ideas of cars with power adders racing cars that are N/A, even if they have 2 less cylinders, and calling it pure street and if you get pushed to hot street you are going to be out gunned by the non-stock V8's.



I think you need to focus less on the weight of these cars and focus more on the "Pure Street" side of the cars.

But like I said, with as much variety as there is in there you will never please everyone or make it even with all these cars running in 1 class.
-Nick

[NJSPEEDER]

the internal restrictions are nice, but we have no reasonable way to enforce it. anyone could protest and then we would have to do a tear down to inspect the heads and that can only be done accurately if we have templates and factory tolerance maps for every set of heads GM ever used.

to keep things somewhat under control we have two ideas. a displacement limit, 408 or 410 would be fair since 400's were available from the factory in both chevy and pontiac models, and there is some consideration of a compression limit. there seems to be a common use of 11:1 as a limit for "street" engines under a few sanctioning bodies.
we are still looking for a good way to enforce both of these limitations. without a fair method of enforcement, rules are worthless.

[Batman]

Yeah it is tough to enforce those limits, it sucks but you do have to have some faith in the people racing. I mean I could probably pass mine off as a pure street and it even has stock displacement and a stock C/R (for now anyway )but it certainly isn't a fair car to enter in that category (I am the first to admit it).

[NJSPEEDER]

having raced for so many years, i know better than to jsut blindly count on the honesty of people who want to win. i know that most will be out for some fun, competition, and to see how their car stacks up, it is that handful that are purely out to win that rules have to be made for.

[12secondv6]

Seeing as my v6 is around high 26XX's to low 27XX's in weight..... I shall skip this class.... because I dunno if you would find enough weight ballast around to get my car within the weight requirements

[NJSPEEDER]

jsut throw the neon in the back and eat a few extra track burgers. that should get you close. lol

[BMF]

let them cheat, and judge the cheating on who is the most creative!

[NJSPEEDER]

lol

sorry about the delay in releasing a rules update. i am trying to pin point an easy way to check displacement/compression before i put everything out. there is no use making rules you can't enforce them

[BMF]

Why are you using a .400 pro tree?

The typical reaction times you're going to see in the footbrake class with the people who react on time, are going to be .200 ish

it takes alot of effort to get an 11 or 12 second car to react on a .500 protree.

this isnt like a full tree, there is no anticipation!

Better question, why ask my opinion if you are going to ignore pretty much all of the things i've mentioned?

I'm not new to this stuff, i build real race cars for a living, and i put quite a few laps on my own ride every season.

[NJSPEEDER]

i am not ignoring your suggestions or your opinion on the rules.
this isn't about jsut your car or my car or what cars we have worked on. it is about trying to develop rules packages that will have the broadest appeal.
in talking to several other racers it seemed that the greater number of racers prefer heads up racing on a .400 tree, just like the pros. i understand that a slower car does not react the same as a pro stocker, but it does allow for some more of the driver factor to enter the situation.

[BMF]

I dont just work on cars, I build race cars for a living. I've built 12 second street rides, and 8 second nitrous BB cars, and i'm telling ya, using a .400 pro tree in Footbrake is going to have alot of people dissppointed that they cant hit the tree, or even come close!

you need to work the rules around the class, who gives a **** if Pro Stock uses a .400 pro tree.

A N/A class drawing 11 and 12 second cars isnt pro stock, isnt even close, the cars dont work the same, and they wont react.

[NJSPEEDER]

i have talked to many many people about this. from both the competitive and spectator side, nearly everyone is in favor of using the .400 tree in any class that is heads up.
no one ever considered that the pure street class would leave line line like a pro stock car and i don't see how that has anything to do with it. a well prepared driver will always make an effort to out react his/her opponent. if the style of tree used leaves more room for improvement because of the nature of the class rules, so be it.
it is a heads up racing catagory. how the reaction time looks in general on a slip of paper is not as important as how it looks compared to the person in the other lane, that is the truth regardless of what tree is being used.
i appreciate that you have a cool job, but it really has nothing to do with the classes we are trying to create here.

[NJSPEEDER]

i wnated to update efveryone on the search for a fair way to enforce displacement. i have been talking to a few of the local tracks and i have a line on the tool a few of them use to enforce their displacement rules. hopefully i can track one down by the end of the week and then we will be able to post up the expanded rules for everyone. a little behind schedule, but like i said before, there is no point posting up rules if there is no way to enforce them.
thanks for your patience everyone.

[BMF]

you can see 1/10 second from the Stands? thats a good trick.

Go to one of the Dial dash races, which run a .500 pro tree, and ask to see some of the R/T's, then add 1/10, and you'll see what i mean.

a Pro tree isnt like a full tree, there is NO ANTIPATION, and this effects the r/t.

Do me a favor, dont ask for my advice if you dont intend to listen to it.

[NJSPEEDER]

i asked for advice and input from people. just because an idea that you brought up didn't get put into the rules certainly doesn't mean that it wasn't considered or persued. i asked around, both those who plan to spectate and participate, and nearly everyone wants to see a .400 pro tree.
i still don't see what the problem is. according to you everyone r/t will be off. if it is something that will effect everyone in the class then it is still fair either way. if, in the course of the season, the tree proves to be a sticking point or the participants start asking for a change, then it is something we can look at for the following season. right now the popular vote seems to be on the side of sticking with the .400 tree, so that is what we will do.
i am sorry i can't make a class purely designed around what you want to see, but i am trying to make classes that can include the broadest range of cars possible and some will fall through the cracks. if we have space/time/support for 50 classes i could promise to have exactly what evryone wanted, but that isn't reality.
i am doing my best here and i appreciate everyone's feedback. you just have to accept that not every idea that gets resented can be worked into the rules.

[BMF]

As oppsed to a .500 pro tree? if you can tell me the difference from the stands, i'll be impressed.

According to me? no, according to Math and Physics....

I think i'll survive even if you dont change your rules.

I wont however support the race.

[NJSPEEDER]

are you not willing to support the series because your suggestions aren't being used?
when trying to put together an event or series of events for a group of people a lot of rules decisions come down to popular opinion. in this case the popular opinion fell on the side of using a different tree than you would like to see. sorry, but that is the way it worked out.
as far as me seeing a tenth from the stands, i can. i have been racing and around race cars since i was young and have logged plenty of passes in front of every type of tree. i know that the average spectator wouldn't notice much of a difference.
it isn't that i don't understand your position, it is just that the opinions of many and the fact that it doesn't effect the competition being fair have pointed the decision towards using the .400 tree. if that is enough reason to keep you from coming out to have some fun and maybe grab a win and a championship, that is up to you.

[BMF]

yeah i think that would about do it for me, I've also been racing for a long time, and no you cant tell how much delay the tree has from the stands.

not only was one of my suggestions shot down...all of them were, after you asked my opinion on the subject, Just a little insulting.
Brian

[NJSPEEDER]

so just because your suggestions weren't worked into the rules i am somehow offending you?
i looked into every suggestion possible. i have been given advice by dozens of people and i have talked to many more about the suggestions that were made. just because what you suggested didn't get into teh rules does not mean that it wasn't looked into.
if you think this is a personal thing about you or your suggestions, you are fooling yourself. it is also extremely arrogant of you to assume that your suggestions and views are so important that they should outweigh those of the other people i have spoken with about the rules.
the rules that have been proposed are very simple and your car would be eligable for both heads up and bracket catagories with little or no modification.
IMHO, it really looks like a cop out for you to avoid competition just because the rules in one class weren't altered to the way you want.

[BMF]

Yeah, you asked for my suggestions, then avoided all of them. Thats insulting.

Look if you just wanted peoples opinions who agree with you, you shouldnt have asked me!

Yeah what heads up competition are you talking about that i'm eligable for? The N/A class requires Drag Radials! If you think i'm spending $400 on a set of drag radials, and making a gear change, to race for what???? how much to win???

Or better yet, the next class would require at minimum a plate system, and since i'm running Radial slicks, a tire and gear swap.

Make a N/A slick Tire class, I'll consider racing at this event, which My attendence alone will bring at least 4-5 other cars, Good cars.

[NJSPEEDER]

actually, if you were paying attention, you would have noticed many changes to the rules that were not my ideas. i don't know what your deal is. somehow your ideas have become more important in your mind than anyone elses. sorry to burst your bubble, but everyone's ideas carry the same weight around here.
as far as the prize fund, we don't know yet. you are correct that it costs money to race, but i think everyone here is aware of that fact already. if you wanna compete in a class you have to meet the classes rules, whether you agree with them 100% or not.
it is also apparent to me that you have not considered any of the other options available for competition. your car would fit nicely into a few bracket classes, or with a few changes into a few heads up catagories. it isn't like you have been left with no place to race, just that you don't want to compete in any class that the rules do not directly reflect what you wanted.

[BMF]

I bracket race in Etowns open comp racing, i can win as much as $800 or more on a sunday.

My interest was a N/A heads up class, that which is a slick tired class.

Spend $1000 to win bragging rights and no money? No thanks.

All you needed to do was change...275 drag radial to ....UNMODIFED WHEEL WELL....and now i'm racing, as well as host of other people who would otherwise not even consider the event.

Isnt part of this, the fact that you want to start up something? If you eliminate a whole feild of N/A small block, slick tired cars, which are quite abundant, then you cut out quite a few racers.

I realise what it costs to race, i have $40k into my car.

However, when it comes to changing components on a car to race in a headsup venue that offers No reasonable way of enforcing the CID limits, and no cash payout (yet)....i'm going to say, no its not worth it to spend nearly $1000 before i buy an entry.

[NJSPEEDER]

you wanted a class that your car could step right into, sorry that wasn't able to be done this year. i keep all of the suggestions i receive written down for future reference. if time/space/sponsorship/demand become available then more classes will be added and rules changed to create more competition.

as far as cutting the field one way or the other, some research i did last year pointed out the fact that 275/50-15 is the most popular selling drag tire of any construction over teh last several years. it is also the basis for touring sereis under at least 3 different regional sanctioning bodies and countless tracks have trophy programs based around this tire size. to me, that doesn't sound like a very limited field.

if anything i would agree with what most people i have talked to pointed at as a limiting factor for entries, the suggested base weight. one of the first things that many people do is go to lightweight components and some cars even come stock below the base weights that were suggested. that has been a great point of debate from the begining but it does look like we are finding a middle ground with the 3400 number that makes pretty much everyone happy.

please don't try to make it sound like the rules packages i work on are not honest efforts or i am trying to see classes the way i want. i have put a lot of time over the years into researching different rules packages in an effort to come up with fun and fair classes at any event that i have ever been a part of the planning team.

[vegaken]

Tim stick with what you have. There is nothing more unsettling to a racer than rules changing all the time. Get all your input as you have done and release a final set of rules. Nothing kills class racing as much as rule changes. Look at the problems that the NSCA had when they kept changing rules, car count goes down. People will not build cars quick enough to keep up with changing rules. Better to take your time with the rules and get them right the first time so that in the off season slight tuning of the rules can take place not wholesale changes.

Brian don't take it so personal that your input is not being used. You made valid points on some stuff. Yeah it sucks that your car does not fit the classes perfectly, but that is life. However a lot of the time an idea not used my make others think of a better way of doing things. It just happens that the majority of the people here did not agree with you. Nothing personal just the way they feel about it. It seems that you have a nice stocker setup if that is true and you race it enough you should be able to really wipe the floor up with these guys on the tree. I am sure you probably have more hits at the tree than most of these guys. Use this to your advantage!

On a final note most of these guys will not care about the money. Yeah it is nice to get paid if you do well, but guess what you would still race if there was never any money paid out. You can't honestly say that you would sell your car if every track decided to stop paying out money. Amazing that there are still people showing up on T&T nights for no money.
Oh just to let you know I will be there in Hot Street on Drag Radials with N/A combination, bringing the knife to the gun fight. Hopefully my driving skills and 9 second combination will be enough for now in the class. If not I guess I better get working harder.
Ken