Just shocks..any suggestions - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

lookingformore · 05-07-2006, 04:52 PM

I placed a broad question about overall suspension and got a lot of feedback....and realize i have to do things one at a time.....first question..Will replacing the shocks all around be worth it with all the stock parts all around....and if so I got info on the AFCO shocks....are they overkill? Is there something out there i can use as a good suspension part for now and possibly upgrade later.......Is Bilstein, QA1 reliable? And is it good to use the Eibach drag springs or are they not worth it........

BonzoHansen · 05-07-2006, 07:45 PM

What do you want to do, road handling or drag setup?

qwikz28 · 05-08-2006, 07:45 AM

for stock ride hight-

drag shocks- lakewoods ftw
all around- bilstein ftw

aftermarket ride height-

drag shocks- qa1s ftw
all around- konis ftw

Tru2Chevy · 05-08-2006, 10:24 AM

For drag racing, Bilsteins aren't the greatest idea. AFAIK, they don't make a dedicated drag shock.

If you don't have money to blow on AFCOs, then I would get QA1 coilovers, and swap out the shocks to AFCOs when you can afford it. The QA1s will be a big improvement over stock, and you'll be able to adjust your ride height with the coilovers.

I don't like most of the drag launch springs on the market because they almost all have different springs for each side in the rear. I think that's just a band aid for not having the rest of the suspension setup correctly to get the car to leave straight.

- Justin

lookingformore · 05-08-2006, 06:51 PM

OK. so the QA1 will be ok for shock application....and thats the exact answer i was looking for (something with good improvement over stock and not overkill on the price)

Can someone explain the need for changing out the rear control arms....what is the exact gain- And for me, will doing the rear shocks and control arms be a good start.....

Also are BMR control arms good for the job if not what are you using?

BTW- all installations on my car are for going the 1/4- drag racing

BMF · 05-08-2006, 08:24 PM

Having used both QA1 and Afco, you're money is better spent buying the right shocks the first time.

If you are willing to put out the money to buy Qa1's, it will be in vain if you run out of adjustability with them.

On one my friends rides, which is a high 11 second ride, he found out the expensive way that QA1's are not nearly is good as afcos.

The problem is in the fact that a QA1 single adjusts both Compression and Rebound at the same time.

So its fine if you need a shock stiff on compression AND rebound, but not if you need one thats Light on rebound and stiff on compression, or like most cars somewhere inbetween both of them.

i find it interesting that people will spend $2500 on a pair of the latest greatest cylinder heads, but when it comes to applying that power to the ground, they dont want to hear about $1500 shocks.

Which brings up the point that there's a place local to my area that has extremely good pricing on them, they saved me $60/pr over summit.

be honest with yourself, if you want to put forth a serious effort in tuning and racing, and you feel that having the parts that will help the car hook consistantly (good and bad tracks, hot and cold tracks) are worth it, then buy them.

if you plan to heading to the track a few times a year, and you dont mind if you spin in less then good conditions, then buy the Qa1's.

My last peice of advice is that buying the right shocks after the fact is the MOST expensive route.
After spending $700 on shocks that didnt work (limited adjustability, wear out too quickly, ect). i bought the AFCO's.

lookingformore · 05-09-2006, 04:58 PM

What do you do for a living? Maybe sales......

Your reasoning allows me no other direction but AFCO.

Money isn't the issue with me, i know quality costs money- i just know there are products out there that WORK just the same as products that are ultra expensive- if a particular item works more then the rest than it warrants the money- i was trying to research that aspect-

Now your reasoning was for adjustability- how much is needed and what determines where you should be?

Also where is it better to start, front or rear with the suspension? Should springs change too?

Got a price of $300 for the AFCO shocks BTW, is that on par with everyone?

Ian · 05-09-2006, 05:24 PM

brian (bmf) builds race cars. obviously he is only going to use the best products available. I agree that Afco's are the way to go if you'll be racing competitively or fine tuning the suspension to eek another hundreth out of the car. But, if you're on a budget and you wont be racing in a competitive class, you might want to think about dropping that much coin on something that may be too adjustable. I assume this is your first time setting up a car for racing, so start off at a comfortable pace. your suspension setup is only gonna be as good as the weakest link. so you may have top end shocks, but if everything else is stock, you probably could have saved some loot and went with a cheaper set of shocks. thats just my take on the matter.

BMF · 05-09-2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookingformore

What do you do for a living? Maybe sales......

Your reasoning allows me no other direction but AFCO.

Money isn't the issue with me, i know quality costs money- i just know there are products out there that WORK just the same as products that are ultra expensive- if a particular item works more then the rest than it warrants the money- i was trying to research that aspect-

Now your reasoning was for adjustability- how much is needed and what determines where you should be?

Also where is it better to start, front or rear with the suspension? Should springs change too?

Got a price of $300 for the AFCO shocks BTW, is that on par with everyone?

As Ian mentioned i build race cars for Landy's Performance. I'm not selling anything, just advising you of whats currently the best Options on the market.

Afcos are not the most expensive shocks on the market, however for they offer the most for the money.

Penske's are roughly ($2800 a set(4)), and Santhuff's (roughly $2200 a set (4))

however until they cars power range puts it somewhere in the 7 second range, Afcos are the best deal.

the reasons i like them, they're sensative to change, the package a range of valving in rebound from being able to pull the shock apart with no effort, all the way to not being able to pull them apart by hand.

On one of the cars i tune, i can fine tune the wheel stand height anywheres from leaving dragging the bumper on the ground, to not lifting the tire, All in the front shock rebound.

The range of compression is just as significant, once the car wheelstands it must return to earth, a 2ft wheelstand in a 10 second car results in a significant bounce if the compression adjustment isnt strong enough.

even small wheelstands will result in a bounce with Koni SPA1's or QA1's. Since the Konis dont have enough compression dampening, and the QA1's are linear on both compression and rebound in the single adjustables.

The Afcos are truely independently adjustable, meaning a change in compression doesnt effect rebound, and vice versa.
A host of the "inexpensive" Double adjustable shocks on the market are NOT truely independent, which can cause alot of trouble in tuning, since the car wont react as it should to a change.

When i went looking for Real shocks, becuase i was tired of spending money in vain on the single adjustable shocks on the market, i first looked at Penske, and was referred to Afco by a friend of mine who builds stock and super stock eliminator race cars for a living, as well as designing his own stock eliminator suspension kits, his equipment is under many record holding stockers in the country, and he spends alot of time on a shock dyno performing testing of new "latest greatest" technology which often turns out to be less then that.

Your shock valving is detiremined in testing, if you are serious i can give you a baseline setting which will have you in the ball park.

lookingformore · 05-09-2006, 06:50 PM

You right in saying this is my first car i'm setting up. With that in mind, you might suggest what kind of shock for starters, or what kind of set up all around?.. I like hearing both ends of the story, this is good. But just so you know, even though i don't race the car in any classes or go nuts every weekend, i would still like the car to be nicely equipped because it doesn't go to the movies or the mall, when the key turns she is only going to the track.

Thanks for the info everyone!

BMF · 05-09-2006, 06:51 PM

The real proof should be that i use this stuff on my car as well as suggesting it to others

The other options would be Strange double adjustable, they're less expensive.

I originally, just like everyone else, took the cheap route to the suspension, and it ended up costing me more in the end, becuase within a years time i spent the money on the good stuff.

lookingformore · 05-09-2006, 07:00 PM

Since i wrote my forst response i was searching around on shock costs and i saw that the AFCO are really not that much more than most of the decent name brand shocks out there. I mean i can obviously tell that they are in a class way above you basci shock replacements but nothing crazy......

Now with that in mind my future for this particular car we are talking about will probably never exceed past high 11's if i'm lucky after what i wanted to do to the car is done- upgrading the tuning, suspension set up, nice rear end, fuel system up grade, upgrading the cam again and more work to the heads- now with only 11's being my best does that change what kind of set up all around i could or should use.........

BMF · 05-09-2006, 07:05 PM

if thats the case, then buy the afcos for the rear, and consider Strange single adjustable in the front.

http://www.strangeengineering.net/catalog/index.html

Ian · 05-09-2006, 07:11 PM

I'd have to agree with brian, if you dont go all out and pony up for the afco's, the strange double adjustables would be the next best choice.

Firehawk 526 · 05-09-2006, 09:12 PM

I can assure you (especially after talking w/Sam Strano) that the Bilsteins are superb for auto-cross but are NOT ideal for DR. Simply put, the dampening rate and spring compression transfer an enormous amount of energy to a "soft" system. I know, and race w/this Bilstein/eibach (SLP option package) setup.

Recommended for DR would be perches/ground control kit w/koni single or double adjustable shocks for the rear. Maybe a 125 or heavier spring, depending on axle weight.

Again, these were recommendations from a well-known, renowned, autocrosser

lookingformore · 05-10-2006, 05:51 PM

Well seems like AFCO for the rear- any specific model?

Strange for the front- single adjustable

Springs- will stock springs work- is there something to recommend

Really thats all i could do right now at this time, would be shocks and springs if i had too.

Are there any incidentals that would just have to be changed when shocks are installed?

Also once i had more funds to continue the set-up will all these parts be compatible with new control arms and what not?

BMF · 05-10-2006, 07:32 PM

Pete Z (appletree) should have a real spring recommendation.

I can pick out a Moroso spring for your car, however i need the front end weight. One of my good friends has had alot of success with 6 cylinder springs.

i'd use the system i layed out, with the global west bushings, roller bearing lowers, and Pete Z rear suspension.

The rear suspension is going to be key to making the car work.

they're bolt on shocks, so any control arms build around the use of stock style shocks, should be fine. However my experience is with the stock control arms.