THE biggest online debate ever?

[ar0ck]

I think this is more of a Debacle then a debate.

[Savage_Messiah]

[oh one ls1 SS]

call it what you want.. the plane wount take off

[Teds89IROC]

I have an R/C plane, lets go get a treadmill and try it in the spring lol

~Ted

[Rob WS6]

LOL damn this exploded fast. The plane WILL take off, and here is why:

The wheels are neutral. They have no affect on the plane aside from physically keeping it off the ground, they are free rotating. They offer no resistance besides frictional aspects. The thrusters will push the plane foreward; the wheels will be doing twice the speed of the acual plane. The plane will move foreward fast enough to generate enough lift for take off.

[V]

It will take off, think about it, thrust is gonna move the plane regarless of the surface below. it could be treadmill, ice, or magnetic levitaion. With the free rolling wheels of the plane, the speend will increase exponentialy as the thrust increases. and the treadmill will increase just as fast, but within a short time the thrust of the engine will get the airplane airborne. To better explain this, think of a prop driven plane, the propellors actually move the plane forward by pulling the plane through the air as the props turn so no matter how fast the wheels roll in any direction, the plane will still be pulled forward in the air by the propellors. A very similar thing would happen with the concept of a jet engine, a turbine engine use thrust to "push" on the air behind the plane, therefore moving the plane. so here also the plane would move forward cause it is "pushing off" of the air behind it and the free-rolling wheels would just spin up at an incrediable rate along with the treadmill until lift off, so my final conclusiion is that the plane would take off.

[Ian]

okay, now someone explain to me why the plane wont just stay in one spot.

*edit*

my thinking was: the weight of the plane is on the wheels. if the groung below the plane moves in the opposite direction, the plane has to work against it. I thought that if the treadmill matched the speed of the plane, it would never move forward and therefore never get any air under the wings and never take off.

[GP99GT]

For a more down to earth example...

Take a toy car, no motors, 4 wheels that just roll. hold it on a moving treadmill with your hand - speeds are matched at that point. No matter how fast that treadmill is moving, it still takes the same amount of power from your hand to move that car forward on the treadmill - apply that concept to the plane.

im going to sleep.

[qwikz28]

the plane cannot take off. the plane needs a certain amount of airflow to LIFT the plane which it will not get from standing still

[oh one ls1 SS]

i understand both sides and right now i wish the plane would just blow up (with no passangers and crewmembers ofcourse)

[Ian]

Originally Posted by GP99GT

For a more down to earth example...

Take a toy car, no motors, 4 wheels that just roll. hold it on a moving treadmill with your hand - speeds are matched at that point. No matter how fast that treadmill is moving, it still takes the same amount of power from your hand to move that car forward on the treadmill - apply that concept to the plane.

im going to sleep.

see there ya go. should have just said that from the begining! I got it now. I feel like a moron, but i got it.

[oh one ls1 SS]

[QUOTE=GP99GT]For a more down to earth example...

Take a toy car, no motors, 4 wheels that just roll. hold it on a moving treadmill with your hand - speeds are matched at that point. No matter how fast that treadmill is moving, it still takes the same amount of power from your hand to move that car forward on the treadmill - apply that concept to the plane.QUOTE]


but its different the plane has a motor to push it under its own power

[GP99GT]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

the plane cannot take off. the plane needs a certain amount of airflow to LIFT the plane which it will not get from standing still

read my above post....it can still move forward, because it will take the same amount of thrust no matter how fast the conveyor underneath is moving.

this time im really going to bed

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by GP99GT

read my above post....it can still move forward, because it will take the same amount of thrust no matter how fast the conveyor underneath is moving.

this time im really going to bed

moving forward is not lift off. and it already used all its thrust on moving it to the same speed as the belt. and the belt will accelerate with it. no take off.

[GP99GT]

Originally Posted by oh one ls1 SS

but its different the plane has a motor to push it under its own power

yes, that planes motor = your hand in my example. it can move forward because it has a force pushing it, just liek your hand pushes the car forward, not the wheels.

let me go to sleep, please?

[oh one ls1 SS]

and whats wrong with the way they take off now?? seems to be working fine

[GP99GT]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

moving forward is not lift off.

moving forward would create lift which = liftoff

[Rob WS6]

I just came to a realization... this is in a way, a trick question. The only way to measure the speed of a plane is its movement from one physical point to another. If the conveyor is moving 10mph backwards, then the plane HAS to be moving 10mph forward. If the conveyor is moving to match the speed of the plane, then the plane MUST be in equal opposing motion. The plane can never be stationary and the conveyor be moving, or this quesion is null and void all together.

[qwikz28]

but it wont move forward still cause the belt will accelerate as well

conclusion: the original statement is too vague and damn the man who created it

[GP99GT]

Originally Posted by Rob WS6

I just came to a realization... this is in a way, a trick question. The only way to measure the speed of a plane is its movement from one physical point to another. If the conveyor is moving 10mph backwards, then the plane HAS to be moving 10mph forward. If the conveyor is moving to match the speed of the plane, then the plane MUST be in equal opposing motion. The plane can never be stationary and the conveyor be moving, or this quesion is null and void all together.

no...the plane can be stationary, but the wheels underneath it cannot be. the plane doesnt have to move for the wheels to move

[GP99GT]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

but it wont move forward still cause the belt will accelerate as well

conclusion: the original statement is too vague and damn the man who created it

yes it will, if you read my example, it takes the same amount of thrust to move the plane, no matter how fast the surface underneath is moving in the opposite direction

[Ian]

Originally Posted by oh one ls1 SS

but its different the plane has a motor to push it under its own power

It would be a better example to use a toy plane rather than a toy car. say the toy plane is held on the treadmill and the treadmill is accellerated. you holding the plane there is acting as thrust, all you have to do is push it forward with a little more thrust and it will move forward on the treadmill. at that point the treadmill will go faster, but because the thrust isnt coming from the wheels of the plane, it doesnt really matter. the wheels are just along for the ride. If the wheels were the ones driving the plane, it would matter becuase then there would be a ton of friction and it would never out run the treadmill. eventually the plane will get going fast enough to get air under the wings and take off.


very tricky question for a dumb person like me. Obviously it was cake walk for you edjumacated people.

[oh one ls1 SS]

i was thinking of it was a car with the motor powering the wheels.. not of a plane where the engin has nothing to do with the wheels i see what u guy's are talkinga bout but im still confused

[Rob WS6]

Originally Posted by GP99GT

no...the plane can be stationary, but the wheels underneath it cannot be. the plane doesnt have to move for the wheels to move

The question states that it tracks the planes speed and applies equal reverse speed to the conveyor, and you DO NOT measure the speed of an airplane by the wheels.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by Ian

It would be a better example to use a toy plane rather than a toy car. say the toy plane is held on the treadmill and the treadmill is accellerated. you holding the plane there is acting as thrust, all you have to do is push it forward with a little more thrust and it will move forward on the treadmill. at that point the treadmill will go faster, but because the thrust isnt coming from the wheels of the plane, it doesnt really matter. the wheels are just along for the ride. If the wheels were the ones driving the plane, it would matter becuase then there would be a ton of friction and it would never out run the treadmill. eventually the plane will get going fast enough to get air under the wings and take off.


very tricky question for a dumb person like me. Obviously it was cake walk for you edjumacated people.

ooooo i get it now. i read it as, no matter what speed the plane goes, the belt will accelerate for it and not allow it to move. i still read it as that but i at least understand what you guys mean now.