2014 Z28

[BonzoHansen]

close doesn't count on the track lol

"although they won't overheat and fade" - kind of important when you are running willow springs or gingerman for 30 minutes plus at a time.

ABC & TC makes a car like that much more drivable, do not downplay that. steilow indicated when he got the ABS dialed in on the red devil car his laps time improved - and that was after he custom designed his own floater rear setup so the ABS readings were good at high speeds. i guess it's freaky when ABS fails at 125+. and he is no slouch driver.

F1 uses all that fancy ABS & TC too, must be for some reason.

oh, and if we don't modify the new Z you need to make that old car pass emissions too.

the conversation is not close. it is equal or better for $75,000. and I say no.

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

I would just like to see one of these factory builds address two of the real problems of the late model pony cars, they are vastly overweight and there is no real DSG or otherwise modern flappy paddle gear box.

Weight slows acceleration, deminishes cornering, and increases stopping distances (yes, even with fancy carbon brakes). Insert commentary about timmay the his typical weight nazi self >>>here<<<

And seriously, why can I get a DSG in an f'ing VW Golf and not in an American performance car? Shift time is lap time and for the person that wants a bit of performance along with the show off qualities of a 75k Camaro a DSG or similar offers modern track performance when you want it and casual automatic driving when you are puttering around town or heading to the local cruise night.

-Tim

Tim hammers my point home here...

All the useful technology and track worthy parts are being partially wasted on a car that is 300 to 500lbs heavier than it needs to be - slowing it down in all axes of acceleration. I'm also going to throw in the idea that the new pony cars are aerodynamically inferior to previous generations, downforce aside.

Stick 90% of that technology and parts list into a lighter, more efficient car and you should go just as fast or faster. And we are talking about parts swapping, not to the Nth degree engineering here.

I'm not a fan of DSG, but it does make a car quicker. There are a lot of high end exotics that are faster with them than without and are easier to drive everyday too.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Paul Huryk

Tim hammers my point home here...

All the useful technology and track worthy parts are being partially wasted on a car that is 300 to 500lbs heavier than it needs to be - slowing it down in all axes of acceleration. I'm also going to throw in the idea that the new pony cars are aerodynamically inferior to previous generations, downforce aside.

Stick 90% of that technology and parts list into a lighter, more efficient car and you should go just as fast or faster. And we are talking about parts swapping, not to the Nth degree engineering here.

I'm not a fan of DSG, but it does make a car quicker. There are a lot of high end exotics that are faster with them than without and are easier to drive everyday too.

I think the issue here is that you can't just bolt some of this stuff on, at least for the price. $75k may seem like a lot but you do need to account for all of the time and custom development work it takes to update the older car. Retrofitting TC and ABS is not easy and/or cheap. Nor are all of the body/chassis mods that need to be made to fix wacky weight distribution and suspension design. At some point it will probably be a 2nd gen by VIN and body only.

IMO the new Z is not a bargain but you can't build a similar car for 75k.


And just curious, why all the DSG hate?

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Probably torque holding capacity vs. installation price.

Bugati Veyron = 1000hp at over 2 tons and its cheap enough to put in a Golf.

The Z28 comes with some cool toys but what is left out doesn't make sense to me when looking at the mark up. GM keeps coming out with performance cars claiming to have a world class pedigree but they are missing world class performance parts.

-Tim

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

close doesn't count on the track lol

"although they won't overheat and fade" - kind of important when you are running willow springs or gingerman for 30 minutes plus at a time.

ABC & TC makes a car like that much more drivable, do not downplay that. steilow indicated when he got the ABS dialed in on the red devil car his laps time improved - and that was after he custom designed his own floater rear setup so the ABS readings were good at high speeds. i guess it's freaky when ABS fails at 125+. and he is no slouch driver.

F1 uses all that fancy ABS & TC too, must be for some reason.

oh, and if we don't modify the new Z you need to make that old car pass emissions too.

the conversation is not close. it is equal or better for $75,000. and I say no.

Within a second of each other on the same track is close. Not talking 4 or 5 seconds here.

30 minutes is a short race. I have a chumpcar customer who runs between 7 and 24 hours straight on a 13" 4 piston 2pc rotor brake kit in his 3rd gen. As the car is about 3,000lbs it never overheats the brakes, even when running at a constant 99%.

A lot of performance cars use ABS and TC as a crutch for having parts way too powerful to be controlled by you brain, gut, and feet. As an example, those super powerful turbocharged AMG Mercedes need TC to be able to not spin the tires to Chicago - they have so much power that the tires could only wish to put it all to the ground, even at higher speeds. Another example is how you need ABS on the 2014 Z28 due to the amount of grip the composite brakes can give - way too much for the 305 width soft compound tires they stick on them.

Now if you ask me is the new Z28 going to be a more enjoyable, less taxing car to drive for a 45 minute session on VIR, I would absolutely say yes. Although there is a sense of accomplishment of sitting in a pool of sweat, not being able to carry yourself out of a car after a long track session in a violent, 100% attention required car.

F1 uses ABS and TC to keep those cars on the road and lap times fast & consistent. No one is capable of driving a car like that without those aids for more than a lap or two.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Bugati Veyron = 1000hp at over 2 tons and its cheap enough to put in a Golf.

The Z28 comes with some cool toys but what is left out doesn't make sense to me when looking at the mark up. GM keeps coming out with performance cars claiming to have a world class pedigree but they are missing world class performance parts.

-Tim

Not the same trans.

[NJSPEEDER]

The premise carries. If there are versions of value and durability sufficient to install in cars ranging from 1/4 to 14 times the price I am sure there is something available.

-Tim

[WildBillyT]

Well, as an FYI, according to the VW study course the max torque for the "regular" DSG is 258 lb-ft.

And I'm not saying something couldn't be designed to work, only that the price to make it available might push the price of the vehicle much higher than they want it to be.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Bugati Veyron = 1000hp at over 2 tons and its cheap enough to put in a Golf.

The Z28 comes with some cool toys but what is left out doesn't make sense to me when looking at the mark up. GM keeps coming out with performance cars claiming to have a world class pedigree but they are missing world class performance parts.

-Tim

so it doesn't have a shifter setup you like. what other world class performance parts is it missing?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Warranty.

Void the second it hits a track

[Mike]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Only factors in about $12,000 of unknown which includes more parts including carbon fiber parts and a special piece of rear glass, different shocks, trans and rear diff coolers. There are going to be other unknown parts in that price too New LS7 with all the fixins needed for the dry sump is about right on at $15,000 that they are saying and then the brakes are around $5,000 for the rotors alone so the labor really isn't anywhere near $12,000. You're still going to need to spend around that $30k just to keep up with a car that has a factory warrantee

The article you posted said they weren't factoring in the brakes. So you can't use them to debunk me

[redsoxsstink]

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/h...y-flowtie.html

Found this interesting

[Mike]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

open track seems where the gen5 really shines. what 10 cars do you pick in front of it?

C5, c6, several porches, 4th gen,

I would engine swap a solstice/sky, miata, rx7, new frs thing before I used a 5th gen.

[Fast92RS]

Originally Posted by Mike

Void the second it hits a track

Not true GM will warranty the car if you break it at the track. as long as you follow the break in period before taking it to the track. In one of my videos that give you the welcome for my ZL1, Al Oppenheiser says they want you to bring it to the track and if you happen to blow an engine at the track GM will replace it. I have to find that video.

[Mike]

I would like to see the first person that tries to use that and see what gm back pedals too. Ford claimed they were gonna cover the raptors and have refused a few people that have broken them off road

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by redsoxsstink

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/h...y-flowtie.html

Found this interesting

GM is trying to be like Porsche with this level of interesting, but useless information.

[Fast92RS]

Originally Posted by Mike

I would like to see the first person that tries to use that and see what gm back pedals too. Ford claimed they were gonna cover the raptors and have refused a few people that have broken them off road

I can see that, but I am sure it has occurred because the zl1 has been out since 2012. The welcome videos discuss taking the car to the track and there is one video just on what to do when you take it so I think it would be pretty hard for GM not keep there claims. There is a whole discussion on this in another forum and since each dealership is owned individually I guess it comes down to the dealer honoring the warranty.

This is what i can find so far:
The ZL1 comes with a track warranty - meaning you can go to a test n' tune and break your axle, GM will cover it.

What you can't do is sign up for a race/competition - that voids the warranty.

But again if they find that it was abuse of the car and not actual part failure Im sure they will find a way to screw you.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by Mike

Void the second it hits a track

This guy says it doesn't?

Chevy is dead set on venturing off into the land of the Nissan GT-R and Porsche 911 GT3 with its track-focused Z/28, and firmly states that this car is not to be treated as a daily driver. To that end, Chevy is extending the factory warranty on the Z/28 to include track use – the company stands behind the full performance capabilities of this car.

I guess with that first line, there should be deep pockets to pick up this toy and beat up on some yuppies!

Production of the Z/28 starts in the first quarter of 2014, with sales anticipated to start sometime before Q2. Pricing has not been announced, and executives wouldn't even hint at possible starting MSRPs. That said, Chevy is fully expecting the Z/28 to be a low-volume car, only selling at about half the rate of the ZL1. The company would like to sell maybe 3,000 to 4,000 Z/28 models over the next two years.

So, who's the target customer? It can't really be driven every day (again, Chevy flat out told us that it shouldn't be), and a more powerful ZL1 offers better refinement and more creature comforts. Ideally, private track users will be the folks stepping up to the Z/28 plate, and we'll be curious to see if would-be 911 or GT-R owners give the American bad boy a try. No doubt, Camaro enthusiasts will surely pick up a few on their own, and we'll be watching the sales numbers closely.

The whole article was a good read, I suggest everyone in here go through it to really appreciate the car and the work put into it. This was another good exert to answer some questions here.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Mike

The article you posted said they weren't factoring in the brakes. So you can't use them to debunk me

While you ARE correct (and I mis-read the article), it doesn't debunk the overall argument that you can't build it for less with a new car

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

The whole article was a good read, I suggest everyone in here go through it to really appreciate the car and the work put into it. This was another good exert to answer some questions here.

why? isn't it more fun to bash gm for not building fast cars and bash the fast car they build? because usually its the same people who do both. or if they pulled a ford and dropped a pile of HP in a poor chassis and got spanked on the track the complaints would roll. So GM can't win. So good for them for building a camaro that beats cars twice its price and to hell with the interweb complainers. It's a halo car where the halo shines bright and that is good for all us camaro fans.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

why? isn't it more fun to bash gm for not building fast cars and bash the fast car they build? because usually its the same people who do both. or if they pulled a ford and dropped a pile of HP in a poor chassis and got spanked on the track the complaints would roll. So GM can't win. So good for them for building a camaro that beats cars twice its price and to hell with the interweb complainers. It's a halo car where the halo shines bright and that is good for all us camaro fans.

its a helluva car but to me this just feels wrong. although its probably worth every single penny, the camaro has always been a bang for your buck platform...even though the z28 has a rich heritage in racing, the camaro also has a rich heritage of being affordable. i guess it is an ''affordable'' race car but seeing 75k on the sticker of a camaro is just mind boggling for some...myself included.

that said, i cant wait to see one in person

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

its a helluva car but to me this just feels wrong. although its probably worth every single penny, the camaro has always been a bang for your buck platform...even though the z28 has a rich heritage in racing, the camaro also has a rich heritage of being affordable. i guess it is an ''affordable'' race car but seeing 75k on the sticker of a camaro is just mind boggling for some...myself included.

that said, i cant wait to see one in person

Adjusted price is similar to a Baldwin-Motion car from the late 60's.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

why? isn't it more fun to bash gm for not building fast cars and bash the fast car they build? because usually its the same people who do both. or if they pulled a ford and dropped a pile of HP in a poor chassis and got spanked on the track the complaints would roll. So GM can't win. So good for them for building a camaro that beats cars twice its price and to hell with the interweb complainers. It's a halo car where the halo shines bright and that is good for all us camaro fans.

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

its a helluva car but to me this just feels wrong. although its probably worth every single penny, the camaro has always been a bang for your buck platform...even though the z28 has a rich heritage in racing, the camaro also has a rich heritage of being affordable. i guess it is an ''affordable'' race car but seeing 75k on the sticker of a camaro is just mind boggling for some...myself included.

that said, i cant wait to see one in person

Don't get me wrong, its awesome that GM is making kick ass all around cars like this. I am with nasty, its great that GM is making a sweet ass car like this, but the price tag is still a shocker to me. And def throws into question whether it will actually be used to the full extent of what 75k gets you as far as race car stuff.

IE like what Mike was saying.. if I have a shiny new 75k car I certainly wouldn't wanna get it dinged up etc.

Car pricing is absurd, I will stick to my old style LT1. Even switching to trucks, a nice diesel is in the sky pricing these days. Inflation, gah.

[Mike]

I skimmed right over James posting that rotors are 5k. Just thinking about brake jobs has my head spinning right now....

And I don't think they can cut the carbon ceramic rotors. So it's new ones at every brake job. Maybe multiple times a season if used for intended purpose

[BonzoHansen]

that's the price of racing