How the hell is this possible?

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by scooter

I hate when people call alcoholism a "disease".

you say it's all about a choice. when a person no longer functions but still drinks is diseased. after he has lost everything: his friends, his family, his job, etc., and still he drinks is no longer making a choice.

webster's defines disease as : a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

alcoholism is a disease

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

you say it's all about a choice. when a person no longer functions but still drinks is diseased. after he has lost everything: his friends, his family, his job, etc., and still he drinks is no longer making a choice.

They DO still have a choice. No where in this society is drunken behavior acceptable and if whay crayface says is true then once sobered up in the hospital they could seek help.
To say that someone cant make a choice is only making the problem worse, there is a choice every minute of every day. It is not an acceptable behavior and it is driven into our heads almost everywhere we go.

[LTb1ow]

You should go get hooked on heroin or something before you start preaching that everyone who has an addiction is less of a person than yours truly.

Have you ever had an addiction?

Do you know how much it can cloud your judgment?

Or are you being ignorant?

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

You should go get hooked on heroin or something before you start preaching that everyone who has an addiction is less of a person than yours truly.

Have you ever had an addiction?

Do you know how much it can cloud your judgment?

Or are you being ignorant?

I never claimed to be better than anybody else. I do have an addiction, although it only affects myself. I know it clouds my judgement every day. I HAVE a choice but I make excuses when I know there is a way to correct it. No one is perfect and I am far from it and I will admit that but there is no excuse for drunk driving, NONE!

[LTb1ow]

Drunk driving?

I was just arguing against your point of alcoholism being something of an excuse for people to drink and play the woe is me card.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

Drunk driving?

I was just arguing against your point of alcoholism being something of an excuse for people to drink and play the woe is me card.

IMO it all goes together. Again I refer to my ealier point of the person I know with the other mental problem. She uses it all the time as an excuse to do what ever the **** she wants. She downright refuses help and that was her choice, to be a worthless bag of meat that is a burden on the economy and society. She sees what she can get away with and uses it to her advantage. In one instance if I had not known the police offices involved and they knew the history of the house I would have gone to jail when I didnt do anything wrong.
I am not saying this is exactly the same with alcoholism but it still works similarly.

[jims69camaro]

IMO, you are comparing apples to oranges. you are comparing someone who was misdiagnosed with some mental deficiency who uses it for her personal gain to someone who is truly diseased.

there are levels that alcoholism may affect a person. sure, if you are a social alcoholic, as when a group of friends gets together, alcohol is bought and consumed. you have a choice to drink or not drink, but since everyone else is doing it, then it is acceptable and you do it. that is choosing.

taking this one step further, you drink at every opportunity. friends get together, alcohol is purchased and consumed, it is acceptable. you drink a cocktail upon returning from work. it was a hard day and you deserve a cocktail. still acceptable, still ok. you have a glass of wine with dinner. still acceptable, still ok, still making a choice, right? after everyone leaves, you stay up. wife/gf wants to go to bed, you say no, i am staying up. you finish every drop of alcohol in the house, leaving no stone unturned. still acceptable? still ok? some would argue that, yes, it is still ok. but the disease is present and unless something is done, it will devour your life.

you go out to a party. before leaving, you have a shot or two "to take the edge off". still acceptable. once you get to the party, you consume enough alcohol to be the one dancing around with a lampshade on your head. or some other behavior that is considered "the life of the party". still acceptable? still ok? you refuse to give your keys up. you drove there, you are going to drive home. no one is able to talk you out of it. you are legally drunk, but drive anyway. no one is going to tell you when you can drive your car. your wife/gf, having seen this behavior before, knows not to interfere with you or you may become violent. she goes along for the ride. you get home safely, but cannot remember how you got home. parts of the party are either completely blacked out or "fuzzy". still aceptable? still ok? while only the hardcore alcoholics would argue that the behavior at this point is still acceptable, others know it clearly is marking you as a raging drunk who becomes more violent with the more alcohol you consume. certain friends stop inviting you over. your colleagues at work stop wanting to have a beer with you, since it goes from one beer to ten very quickly, and then you get violent when someone wants to go home, calling them a party pooper. your in-laws are deeply concerned for their daughter, but after her repeated statements that you are just going through "one of your states" and they figure you'll snap out of it one of these days. only your other affected friends will drink with you now, as they are also violent when they drink so it usually ends the night when two or more of you get into a fist fight. no big deal, as the black eye you got last night will be gone in a few days. people you work with have stopped talking to you, but don't think they have stopped talking behind your back. someone mentions an intervention - someone else thinks it's a better idea if your family does it, as you might not consider those you work with worthy of your respect. all the while they marvel at how your dress code has changed and the black eyes and split lips that pop up from time to time. your in-laws, at this point, are heavily trying to influence their daughter into leaving you, as you have begun using her as a punching bag when you get home from the bar. of course you say you are sorry in the morning, and she might even believe you for now. but she is one punch from the door, believe it. and if you have kids with her they will go with her, and the judge will agree with her. he might even think you'll listen to him when he tells you to "shape up, mister, or i'll be throwing you in jail", but he knows you are most likely going to ignore him. you've begun to drink alone, since the others who used to drink with you won't anymore. that, and most of your friends have been ignoring you for well over a year. your wife left you and took the kids with her. you are not allowed to visit with them without proper supervision, and they have started calling another man "daddy". you have lost your job, since your employer has warned you time and again about coming to work smelling of alcohol in dirty clothes. since your wife left you, you can't figure out how to get the damn washing machine to work - or is it the alcohol that has crept into every facet of your life that clouds your reasoning ability? you are now homeless, begging for money so you can get a bottle to put you to sleep since it's started getting very cold out and none of your friends will put you up anymore.

when did it go from having a choice to controlling your life? now do you understand why it is considered a disease? i am not talking about your mis-diagnosed friend here - this is someone who truly has a problem.

it was easy to see in my example how it went from social drinking to begging for money on the street; not so easy to see when you are on the inside looking out. all you see are people pulling away from you. like i said, it has different levels of affliction, so it might not lead all the way to bottom like i've shown here. hell, losing a gf is one way guys find bottom and decide to join AA or find some other help.

it's not a choice, is what i am saying to you. it is the most destructive, and affects the most number of people in our society.

btw, the person in my story was fictional. obviously, certain parts i have seen in family and friends, so it's more appropriate to say that he is a conglomeration of aspects of the disease as i have seen it in others and myself.

[LTb1ow]

Well put Jim.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

when did it go from having a choice to controlling your life? now do you understand why it is considered a disease? i am not talking about your mis-diagnosed friend here - this is someone who truly has a problem.

I could flat out argue your third scenario to no end. I already saw my life going towards that at one point, and I made a CHOICE to not continue down that road. So I go back to the other statement that that person was a weak minded whatever. I saw that I was hurting the people around me that I cared about and I didnt want to be some low life POS. I told myself not to become that person and not to drink like that anymore, it was hard and I have broken that promise to myself a few times.
I am pre-disposed to anger in much the same situation. I have done some things that I really regret to this day and it was out of rage from things done to me in my past. I know where a lot of these things everyone is saying come from, first hand. Dont tell me there is no choice, I know it can be a very slow gradual downward slope and I made the choice not to go down that road.

[jims69camaro]

don't let me be the one to tell you that not everyone is like you. like i said, it affects people differently. you saw what was happening and you chose to stop it. not everyone sees it or has the power to stop it from progressing. you were one of the lucky ones, but you are still battling the disease from your own statements. if it weren't a disease, then what are you battling on a daily basis?

alcoholics have to make a decision every day not to take a drink. it takes that much commitment. the only other disease that requires that level of commitment is cancer. alcoholism is like a cancer, slowly eating away at your life.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

don't let me be the one to tell you that not everyone is like you. like i said, it affects people differently. you saw what was happening and you chose to stop it. not everyone sees it or has the power to stop it from progressing. you were one of the lucky ones, but you are still battling the disease from your own statements. if it weren't a disease, then what are you battling on a daily basis?

alcoholics have to make a decision every day not to take a drink. it takes that much commitment. the only other disease that requires that level of commitment is cancer. alcoholism is like a cancer, slowly eating away at your life.

QFT.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

alcoholics have to make a decision every day not to take a drink. it takes that much commitment. the only other disease that requires that level of commitment is cancer. alcoholism is like a cancer, slowly eating away at your life.

Wrong. You can't tell cancer to stop it. However, you can put the battle down. Once cancer spreads you are in the mercy of doctors, and pretty much luck. With booze one always has a choice to put the bottle down and stop being an idiot. My family has experienced both, on more than one occasion.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by Tsar

Wrong. You can't tell cancer to stop it. However, you can put the battle down. Once cancer spreads you are in the mercy of doctors, and pretty much luck. With booze one always has a choice to put the bottle down and stop being an idiot. My family has experienced both, on more than one occasion.

you make it sound so easy to put the bottle down. from your own experience you know it is not. anyone caught in the throes of alcoholism does not have the power to just put the bottle down. it takes counseling. it take group therapy. it takes years before they are strong enough to stand on their own, and still mistakes happen along the way.

i am a firm believer that there are only three destinations with alcoholism, and anyone who has been to a meeting with Bill W., knows this: death, prison or a mental institution. that's it, unless they hit rock bottom and have the help to get back up. unless a major life-changing event transpires, they continue down the toilet.

you can't tell alcoholism to just stop it. if you are afflicted with the disease, it is with you for the rest of your life. no ifs, ands or buts. and like cancer, it requires the intervention of a knowledgeable professional to help them back to health. with cancer, sometimes you are lucky and you just cut it out and it never comes back. you can't just cut out alcoholism and it doesn't come back. it is with you for the rest of your life, each day requiring the commitment to stay sober. one is too many, ten is not enough.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

you make it sound so easy to put the bottle down. from your own experience you know it is not. anyone caught in the throes of alcoholism does not have the power to just put the bottle down. it takes counseling. it take group therapy. it takes years before they are strong enough to stand on their own, and still mistakes happen along the way.

i am a firm believer that there are only three destinations with alcoholism, and anyone who has been to a meeting with Bill W., knows this: death, prison or a mental institution. that's it, unless they hit rock bottom and have the help to get back up. unless a major life-changing event transpires, they continue down the toilet.

you can't tell alcoholism to just stop it. if you are afflicted with the disease, it is with you for the rest of your life. no ifs, ands or buts. and like cancer, it requires the intervention of a knowledgeable professional to help them back to health. with cancer, sometimes you are lucky and you just cut it out and it never comes back. you can't just cut out alcoholism and it doesn't come back. it is with you for the rest of your life, each day requiring the commitment to stay sober. one is too many, ten is not enough.

We are gonna disagree on this topic big time (just like smoking). But I highlighted one key phrase "strong enough". Yes in order to combat the addiction one needs to have some balls, period. I view alcoholics as weak minded oxygen sucking pieces of crap that do not have a back bone and would not piss on you to put out a fire. Alcoholism is something that an individual brings upon themselves by drinking (doh). No one made him pick up that first bottle of Vodka and drink it, no one made him pick up the second one, or the third one. They do it themselves, they are the only one to blame for their addiction, and they are the only ones that can stop it. Surely some that do not have a back bone will need some big group of people to talk things about and give them a big hug but that's only because they are not strong enough (Weak minded, sissies, whatever you wanna call them) to do it themselves. I believe in personal responsibility and putting alcoholism in the disease column would not be doing so, it's not like anyone gets it from their neighbor.

Sorry I do not baby people that chose to screw up their life on their own initiative. Sure someone can bring up genetics and all that BS, which people often hide behind, which I do not believe, each individual makes a choice, and alcoholics made theirs. I do not see alcoholism and cancer being related in any shape or form. One is purely accidental and luck of the draw, the other one is self induced stupidity.