Should the government bailout the American car companies?

[LTb1ow]

All this money for bailouts, where is it coming from?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by 79CamaroDiva

I think they should be bailed out, restructure as bozo said, and the government should offer huge sales tax breaks to purchasers of american cars, while increasing tax on foreign cars. i think to a lot of people, that tax saved might sway their purchase.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Our exports are so heavily taxed when entering other countries, why not try and fire that back.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

actually americans have long sinced abandoned the car companies since the mid 90s. american auto makers hardly make any type of money, which was the idea behind global parts sharing and platforms


edit: gm killed the camaro...how awesome would it be if the 'neu' gen never sees the light of day.

If they were completely abandoned they would have gone under before 2008. They simply didn't produce anything that people wanted; or thought it would fall apart.

My step dad had an exploder, engine and tranny went at different times while the car was on a 36 month lease. Do you think my parents were enthusiastic about buying another American car after that? It took me a fair amount of time to convince my mother to look at Caddy's, eventually she did and bought one, but if that thing ever breaks I doubt ANY of the the big 3 will see my parent's money ever again. It only takes ONE screw up for someone not to buy product from you, and the big 3 has done it on more than one occasion.

Me on the other hand; well I can't wait to get my CTS

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

All this money for bailouts, where is it coming from?

Printing press.

[LTb1ow]

Well I guess that means gas will keep going down.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by 79CamaroDiva

I think they should be bailed out, restructure as bozo said, and the government should offer huge sales tax breaks to purchasers of american cars, while increasing tax on foreign cars. i think to a lot of people, that tax saved might sway their purchase.

The auto industry doesn't really need "tax breaks" so to speak, the government just needs to get rid of many of the stupid taxes that are special, just for the auto industry.

1. If you buy a car anywhere in the world you have to pay your home states sales tax to register it, why? This is not done with any other item of any kind, why would you prevent anyone from saving their hard earned on something so expensive?

2. Luxury tax on your way to get to work? Funny, I can buy a $30million home and pay the same tax rate as someone buying a $100k home, but if I want a car that cost $40k or more or a truck that costs $50k or more, I get stabbed in the eye with an extra 2%. WTF?

3. Gas Guzzler Tax. If a "passenger vehicle"(something that the government can't define clearly but is wiling to tax) gets under MPG tier X, you get to pay extra percentage on it Y. Sound like fun? Cause the taxes start at 25 MPG depending what kind of vehicle it is. BTW, a quad cab Colorado is a "passenger vehicle" but a standard cab is a "compact truck", according to the government, one taxed, one not. lol

If they made cars just like everything else, just paying sales tax where ever you buy it and call it a day, the savings to consumers would be hundreds of millions a year. Wanna encourage the economy, make it so people can afford to shop for big ticket items that employ dozens of people at a time to manufacture.

/rant

-Tim

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Tsar

If they were completely abandoned they would have gone under before 2008. They simply didn't produce anything that people wanted; or thought it would fall apart.

My step dad had an exploder, engine and tranny went at different times while the car was on a 36 month lease. Do you think my parents were enthusiastic about buying another American car after that? It took me a fair amount of time to convince my mother to look at Caddy's, eventually she did and bought one, but if that thing ever breaks I doubt ANY of the the big 3 will see my parent's money ever again. It only takes ONE screw up for someone not to buy product from you, and the big 3 has done it on more than one occasion.

Me on the other hand; well I can't wait to get my CTS

I think the fact that they are American vehicles lends people to give them a lot less rope.

Example:

I know somebody with a Civic Si with the weird shift issue (where you can't push it into 3rd because the trans synchros are poorly designed). He changed the fluid to some form of Amsoil synthetic and is just dealing with the issue. As a matter of fact, a lot of owners of that car are taking it in stride. If it had been an American car there would be a huge deal about how much the manufacturer sucks and how they can't build a good car.

Toyota pickups had a similar deal. I know somebody who owned one of the Tacomas with the frame rust issue. I crawled under it (a '99) and the frame rails looked worse than the ones on my '69 when I first got it. I could push my finger through the frame. But that driver, and many others, still liked the Tacoma and would be willing to buy another one in spite of the fact that it rusted away in less than 10 years.

Both of these are big issues that would have a big impact on brand image and consumer confidence if it wasn't for the fact that these aren't American cars.

[BigAls87Z28]

This is a serious problem with trade when you compare how Japan is allowed to just come into the US without any major restrictions, vs how the Japanese goverment has done to keep everyone out.

I can see that if GM was just going about normal business, pushing suv's and trucks and forgetting about being part of the problem, making subpar cars, etc etc.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

This is a serious problem with trade when you compare how Japan is allowed to just come into the US without any major restrictions, vs how the Japanese goverment has done to keep everyone out.

I think that's where Melissa and I were going with the tax stuff.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

This is a serious problem with trade when you compare how Japan is allowed to just come into the US without any major restrictions, vs how the Japanese goverment has done to keep everyone out.

I can see that if GM was just going about normal business, pushing suv's and trucks and forgetting about being part of the problem, making subpar cars, etc etc.

The Japanese companies ARE American companies now. They build their cars here and took on a position of strengthening themselves from with in when they ran into trouble. If you look at supply lines, more "American" car models pay import tariffs than the "Foreign" brands do.

They are saving themselves money on all of the protective tariffs that the government has had in place since the 60's to try to keep them out.

American union labor is what needs the attitude check, but no one with the power to influence change has the balls to stand up to them.

-Tim

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

I think the fact that they are American vehicles lends people to give them a lot less rope.

Example:

I know somebody with a Civic Si with the weird shift issue (where you can't push it into 3rd because the trans synchros are poorly designed). He changed the fluid to some form of Amsoil synthetic and is just dealing with the issue. As a matter of fact, a lot of owners of that car are taking it in stride. If it had been an American car there would be a huge deal about how much the manufacturer sucks and how they can't build a good car.

Toyota pickups had a similar deal. I know somebody who owned one of the Tacomas with the frame rust issue. I crawled under it (a '99) and the frame rails looked worse than the ones on my '69 when I first got it. I could push my finger through the frame. But that driver, and many others, still liked the Tacoma and would be willing to buy another one in spite of the fact that it rusted away in less than 10 years.

Both of these are big issues that would have a big impact on brand image and consumer confidence if it wasn't for the fact that these aren't American cars.

I'm familiar with the Tacoma rust issue, and yea its pretty big . The other one though I never heard about, but maybe its because I was never on any honda boards.

I won't say how other people judge cars, because I do not speak for other people, I'll just speak about my experiences. My mother had no preconceived notions about American cars - Ford was the first car she owned (well my dad owned it but it was shared, you know) and it was the last. I can tell you that with that particular car they had experienced more problems than Mitsubishi Montero Sport, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Nissan Sentra, and Cadillac SRX COMBINED. Besides Caddy, all the other cards were leased, and have NEVER had one problem, never seen the inside of the dealership after they were bought.

The only car to rival Ford in breaking down would be my F-body but it's old so I don't judge it as harsh as I would a brand new lease car.

Just like I said before, one bad experience can forever ruin something for you. At least to some people.

[BigAls87Z28]

Im watching Fast Money on CNBC, and they are strongly against this without some serious targets for them to reach.
They also want change at the top. Ford has already changed CEO's, Chrysler is private, but GM has done little to change its board.
While I think Rick has done a great job for what he was left with, he is not the man for the job anymore. There needs to be a paradigm shift inside GM that would reach down to every single person employeed by GM. He or She must be given the ability to make changes without red tape, without any problems.

There needs to be a change in the Goverment's role in domestic auto makers lives. Import automakers want to build cars here in the US? They must pay the workers the same as the UAW workers are paid, as well as supply benifits to thoes workers that are equal to the UAW.
Imported vehicles should be hit with a small tariff to match the price of the benifits of current workers for the UAW. That would keep pricing on a level field, and not give any benifit for the Imports making cars here in the US and the UAW made cars.
That will level the field, level the pricing, and level the profits that the Japanese companies make on just currency manipulation alone.
America should invest in GM and Ford for making green vehicle programs as well, and that will give America a return on investment by decreasing dependence on oil, keeping America strong, and keeping America's manufacturing strong.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Im watching Fast Money on CNBC, and they are strongly against this without some serious targets for them to reach.
They also want change at the top. Ford has already changed CEO's, Chrysler is private, but GM has done little to change its board.
While I think Rick has done a great job for what he was left with, he is not the man for the job anymore. There needs to be a paradigm shift inside GM that would reach down to every single person employeed by GM. He or She must be given the ability to make changes without red tape, without any problems.

There needs to be a change in the Goverment's role in domestic auto makers lives. Import automakers want to build cars here in the US? They must pay the workers the same as the UAW workers are paid, as well as supply benifits to thoes workers that are equal to the UAW.
Imported vehicles should be hit with a small tariff to match the price of the benifits of current workers for the UAW. That would keep pricing on a level field, and not give any benifit for the Imports making cars here in the US and the UAW made cars.
That will level the field, level the pricing, and level the profits that the Japanese companies make on just currency manipulation alone.
America should invest in GM and Ford for making green vehicle programs as well, and that will give America a return on investment by decreasing dependence on oil, keeping America strong, and keeping America's manufacturing strong.

So you want other companies to fail too, just like the big 3 will?

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Tsar

So you want other companies to fail too, just like the big 3 will?

Not at all. It would level the field, and would make the import companies start giving back to America via healthcare programs and retirement programs.

GM has made major moves in reducing its UAW problems, but like I said, that wont be seen till 2010.
If Toyota were to give its American work force, which is 1/10th of what GM has in America, it would do much more for AMERICA then help GM or make Toyota fail.
Im not talking about supporing millions of retired employees, Im talking about supporting thier current work force to match the average UAW worker's benifits.

[mc73nova]

I think one of the biggest problems American car companies have are their sales approach.

For example my truck was purchased for $34,5xx in May, a few months later you would be able to purchase that same vehicle for $27,5xx because of their employee discount pricing. Another example is the Trailblazer SS usually around $40k for the 3SS(Fully Loaded w/all the goodies) with the employee discount pricing it was $26k. The point I'm trying to make is, MAYBE and I am just saying MAYBE, the American people are sick of paying such high prices for vehicles only to be reminded every so often that they could have got it for thousands less if they had better timing. I myself wasn't to thrilled but its too late and I can't change what is already done.

Every car company has sales pitches and "great deals" but the import company's never offer "employee pricing" therefore people will feel like they are getting what they pay for. American companies would benefit if they offered their low prices on a daily basis not when they are struggling and need to make sales. I'm sure I am not the only one that feels this way, I personally will be hesitant "IF" I purchase another American vehicle just for that fact.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by mc73nova

I think one of the biggest problems American car companies have are their sales approach.

For example my truck was purchased for $34,5xx in May, a few months later you would be able to purchase that same vehicle for $27,5xx because of their employee discount pricing. Another example is the Trailblazer SS usually around $40k for the 3SS(Fully Loaded w/all the goodies) with the employee discount pricing it was $26k. The point I'm trying to make is, MAYBE and I am just saying MAYBE, the American people are sick of paying such high prices for vehicles only to be reminded every so often that they could have got it for thousands less if they had better timing. I myself wasn't to thrilled but its too late and I can't change what is already done.

Every car company has sales pitches and "great deals" but the import company's never offer "employee pricing" therefore people will feel like they are getting what they pay for. American companies would benefit if they offered their low prices on a daily basis not when they are struggling and need to make sales. I'm sure I am not the only one that feels this way, I personally will be hesitant "IF" I purchase another American vehicle just for that fact.

Well, Employee Pricing is no different they any other rebate campaign run by anyone.

If you buy any product when its no on sale, dont be mad when it does go on sale.

Employee pricing hurts GM just as much as it helped them. Its a tool, but it also grabs a lot of future sales as well, which hurts thier numbers in a short term. People that were waiting for a big sale, or looking around, this pushed a lot of people into showrooms. Its a short term sale surge that doesnt do much for the long run.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Not at all. It would level the field, and would make the import companies start giving back to America via healthcare programs and retirement programs.

GM has made major moves in reducing its UAW problems, but like I said, that wont be seen till 2010.
If Toyota were to give its American work force, which is 1/10th of what GM has in America, it would do much more for AMERICA then help GM or make Toyota fail.
Im not talking about supporing millions of retired employees, Im talking about supporting thier current work force to match the average UAW worker's benifits.

If Toyota workers are working at a lower wage than GM workers it's at their own will, no? Is anyone making them work for Toyota? Why is everyone suppose to be equal? it sound awfully communistic, at least to me. Life isn't fair, neither is business, if one company can't cope with what it has done than maybe it's time for them to go.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Well, Employee Pricing is no different they any other rebate campaign run by anyone.

If you buy any product when its no on sale, dont be mad when it does go on sale.

Employee pricing hurts GM just as much as it helped them. Its a tool, but it also grabs a lot of future sales as well, which hurts thier numbers in a short term. People that were waiting for a big sale, or looking around, this pushed a lot of people into showrooms. Its a short term sale surge that doesnt do much for the long run.

Ahh, saved me the typing. My parents will never buy a car unless it is around some holiday, for obvious reasons. I will be following the same strategy most likely. If i hit it"big" great, if not - well at least I got some kind of "deal".

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Tsar

If Toyota workers are working at a lower wage than GM workers it's at their own will, no? Is anyone making them work for Toyota? Why is everyone suppose to be equal? it sound awfully communistic, at least to me. Life isn't fair, neither is business, if one company can't cope with what it has done than maybe it's time for them to go.

No one is making them work there, and Im not saying pay the SAME wages as the UAW has worked out.
Actually, the UAW's starting hour rate is dropping in 2010, another big thing that GM must be around for.

Whats communistic about having foriegn companies taking advantage of our generocity and we have to level the field?
Is it a shade of protectionisim? Sure is. Its worked for Europe, its working for Japan, and its working for China.
So why is America the ONLY country giving foriegn companies the keys to the country when American companies are behind the 8 ball not only in America, but abroad.

Take the morgage bail out of 700 billion. We are giving money to banks, and to other companies buying up smaller banks so they can get a hand out!! AIG is chewing through billions and billions, and nothing is done!!
No one is stopping the bleeding, banks are still not lending, people are not spending money.
GM wants 1/3 of 25 billion dollars to survive and move foward and become profitable. ****, AIG burned through 25 billion in just the last week.

Originally Posted by Tsar

Ahh, saved me the typing. My parents will never buy a car unless it is around some holiday, for obvious reasons. I will be following the same strategy most likely. If i hit it"big" great, if not - well at least I got some kind of "deal".

Lots of people wait for this, and there are surges around them.

[BonzoHansen]

The UAW needs to push the changes to today. Minimum.

[BigAls87Z28]

Goverment needs to be smarter on the Automaker bail out, no doubt.
With the Big 3 CEO's giong before congress tomorrow, they should work with suppliers and the UAW, and there must be changes made asap.
Or the Goverment gives GM the money to buy out the UAW, or puts 40b into VEBA asap, as well as moving foward with consessions made for 2010.
IMO, total bail out package for the Big 3 should be upwards of 100B.

[NJSPEEDER]

The problem that the UAW faces is a matter of internal politics. Their leadership, just like our government, is largely elected. So you have to put yourself in teh position of the main line worker with in the union, are you gonna vote for the guy who is telling you to cut back, expect less for the next few years, and benefit in the long run, or the guy who is going to act more like Scott Boris and go after every company they can for every penny they can get?

It would benefit the primary, labor level, UAW member to think more long term, but just like the rest of the population in America, they are brainwashed into the what can you do for me now, give me more, immediate satisfaction mentality that has pushed the costs of labor in every industry in the country.

-Tim

[mc73nova]

The need for a car might not be the same time as when the sale actually takes place. If you have the opportunity to plan for when you purchase your next vehicle you definitely have the upper hand, not everyone has that luxury.

There a lot of people on here that would fight for the bail out of the American car companies, so I will say no more because I don't feel like getting into an endless debate. I am not saying I want to see this country struggle anymore than it has and I feel bad for people that lose their jobs because of the economy(I am one of them) but we "Americans" are the reason why we are in this situation.

[BigAls87Z28]

If the Big 3 go out, it will put this country into such a defenseless position, and send this world into a tail spin, that it would be the end of America as we know it.
What we have seen so far is a decline of about .3% GDP.
The death of the Big 3 would be a drop in 4% GDP alone.
America would jump right into another depression, and our country would fall apart.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by mc73nova

but we "Americans" are the reason why we are in this situation.

That is the greatest single line of truth that I have read about this topic on any forum. Very well stated.

-Tim