Land Speed Racing Discussion

[NJSPEEDER]

ok kids, i am looking more seriously into this idea and i need some feedback before we can go to much further forward.

first off, this is something we are looking at for the 2008 event season.
some background on the idea. the east coast timing association runs land speed meets on an old airport runway in maxton, nc. it is a 1.1 mile acceleration course with about a mile of shut down/slow down area.
working in cooperation with some other regional clubs the idea was presented to have see if we coudl do an all f-body meet for fun and to sort out who exactly can bring home the bragging rights of fastest in the land.

what is in question:
1. how much would the experience of going "foot to the floor" for a mile be worth to everyone? since we are looking into making this a special meet jsut for f-bodies, it would be pricey to set up with all the insurance and everything. the weekend would certainly cost many times more than your average trip to the dragstrip.

2. how fast would everyone be expecting to go? the ECTA has an extensive list of requirements relating to safety. everyone would be required to go through a complete safety check and at that time you would be told what the maximum speed you are allowed to go will be. go faster, you too fast, you get booted, no questions and no refund. this is for your safety, so i am not willing to argue with them about it.

3. how many people are interested? the more people are planning to attend to participate and spectate the more realistic it will be to move forward with the idea. we will be working with other regional f-body clubs as well, so we can expect to see a great crowd if we can get this together.

as you can see we are taking this idea very seriously. hopefully things will go smoothly and we will be able to get it together

[V]

I was just looking over some of their regulations quick, i saw a few things that may an issue to some. So i figured id just make it known now, so people dont get their hopes up of hitting high MPH numbers with how thier cars currently sit....

ll-5 DRIVE HUBS: Above 150 MPH, any vehicle equipped with a non-retained axle bearing (non-Hotchkiss type rear axle) assembly must incorporate an approved hub to prevent loss of a wheel in the event of a rear axle failure. Semi or full floating rear axles are sufficient. Late model rear ends using “C” clip axle retainers are NOT acceptable.

III-2 ROLL BAR & ROLL CAGE: All cars in competition over 1 3 5 MPH, must be equipped with a roll bar or roll cage structure. All closed cars between 1 3 5 and 150 MPH must have a 4 point roll bar. All closed cars between 150 and 175 MPH must have a 6 - point roll bar. All closed cars over 175 MPH must have a full roll cage. All open cars are advanced one bar / cage category over closed cars. Any individual wishing to enter a vehicle which deviates from these rules MUST contact the ECTA 45 days before the event for approval.

II-8 WHEELS: All nonferrous wheels on which lug nuts would come in direct contact with the wheel must have a 1/4” thick steel retaining plate or larger o.d. heavy gauge individual washers under all lug nuts. T his does not apply to spindle mount wheels. Magnesium wheels are NOT recommended and, if used, must have an initial Zyglo certificate and stamp. Wheels are to be re-inspected if any adverse conditions arises. Inspections made with tires mounted are accepted. It is recommended that tire pressure used on two piece wheels does NOT exceed 60 psi., or manufacture’s specifications.

Classes over 200 MPH: Wheels used must be manufactured for racing or reinforced as below. 1” lug nuts are required on all vehicles.

Classes under 200 MPH: The smallest part of the hex of a lug nut must be larger than the largest part of the taper of the mounting hole. Lug nuts must torque totally against a wheel’s tapered surface. A minimum of 5/8” of the stud threads must be engaged within the lug nut.
Vehicles with tires having a diameter of 30” or with wheels over 17” in diameter must use a wheel manufactured for racing or reinforced as below. Wheels must be attached with at least 5 studs having a minimum diameter of 1/2” and 1” hex nuts.

In either of the previous cases, wheels must be manufactured for racing purposes or reinforced as follows: By welding the entire area of attachment between the rim and the center section of either the inside or outside of the wheel. Alloy wheels not certified by the manufacturer for racing (i.e. factory wheels are not allowed above 150 MPH. Also , no closed end (Acorn type) lug nuts are allowed.

Wire wheels designed for automotive racing applications such as Rudge or Dayton are allowed. OEM wire wheels are allowed only in classes under 200 MPH provided the center section is adequately reinforced. Motorcycle wheels not designed for automotive applications are prohibited.

Full wheel discs are legal in all categories if securely fastened to the wheel with six (6) or more machine grade screws or three (3) approved Dzus type fasteners. Inner wheel discs must be securely mounted to either the wheel or axle. All hub caps must be removed.

[bubba428]

well let see that eliminates all but 1st and 2nd gens...that aren't full breed race cars

[NJSPEEDER]

there are street classes as well that allow for the more common equipment that our cars all came with from the factory. the rules paul posted are general considerations.
considering the ECTA only has about 4 members that have gone 200+, you can eliminate half of those rules right off the bat. lol

[V]

true, and most cars wont be seeing 150 even, but the c-clip thing i think needs to be kept in mind. Id hope to hit at least 150 myself, so what would i need to do to my rear in that case?

edit: ok so id only have to spend $150 on a c-clip eliminator kit.
and BTW all 12 bolt and 10 bolt gm rears use c-clips so even first and 2nd gens are affected.

135-150mph requires a 4point roll bar. I have hit 111mph is the 1/4 stock, so i think now i should be able to break 135 in a mile. So theres another purchase, but it aint too bad.

also, id be running my stock 17" SS wheels, but since they are non-ferrous id need to install some kind of washers, no matter what i run. its little stuff like that which most people wouldnt expect

worked LS1 cars should be capable of around 150 IMO

[NJSPEEDER]

we will have clarifications on all the safety related rules once things are more solidly placed. for now we need to determine how many people are interested enough for us to persue the idea and how much the experience is worth to them.
if there are only a few interested and they don't wanna spend more than $50 then there isn't much point in following through with the idea.
the safety rules related to the speeds is going to be the hard part to determine. with a 111 trap speed you may be capable of getting into the 150 range. it has a lot to do with gearing and raw HP at that point as wind resistance and the weight of teh vehicle make it progressively harder to add each mph as you head down the course.

[V]

also, true. regardless, I'm definately interested, id even be willing to pay up to $150 or so since it is a rare chance.

Also, how many runs would we get?

[NJSPEEDER]

thenumber of runs will depend on the number of cars invovled. there are stories of people basically hot lapping when others weren't filling the staging lanes fast enough at some meets

[Batman]

I think I maybe able to get close to 175, I think most 4th gen's can hit 150 in a mile, you'll at least be in the high 130's or 140's. I'm game if it isn't redicuously priced, i think my car meets all the standards for 175 and I know I won't break that.

[NJSPEEDER]

i have been in contact with the operators of the ECTA events and they are an extremely helpful bunch.
there are a few ways we can go about doing this event.

#1 work under the ECTA's rules, insurance, and timing structure. this will be the most cost effective as far as getting the event off the ground, but it would add all of their safety requirements to the mix which can get pricey for the faster cars.

#2 organize and "run" the event ourselves under the timing and scoring of the ECTA. this will make the event much much more expensive to run, but would free up the rules, reducing the bulk of the car prep requirements

to be honest, i am a much bigger fan of the first method. these guys take land speed racing very seriously and know how to put on a safe program. for crs reaching higher speeds it means a greater expense in car prep, but to meit is a sacrifice worth making in the remote event something does go wrong on your pass.

i will continue talking to the ECTA guys and work out mroe detailed outlines for possible event solutions. to participate at a typical ECTA event costs $50 for membership and $100 to run in the event. not a bad deal considering that is less than 1/4 the fines for going those speeds on a public road. lol

please let all of the folks on any f-body boards you participate inknowabout the planning of this event. the concept is to make it an all f-body land speed meet for some trophies and bragging rights.

BTW, i was informed that the fastest f-body ever to run the course at maxton hit 213 and the fastest wheel driven f-body anywhere did 330 on the bonneville salt
there are your goals, go get them. lol

[88FormulaChick]

im interested, but wouldnt have the cash to do the nessesary mods to the car i choose to take, and wouldnt have cash to pay for the event itself...but it could be a whole new story in '08. But i'll go and be a spectator either way...but i'd love to run a car...so we'll see where i stand financially in '08.

[NJSPEEDER]

my goal as far as the costs invovled would be to keep the total anyone woudl have to spend in the $700ish range, $1000 at most. that would be for gas+ tolls+ hotel+ food+ entry to the event. speeding tickets to and from the event and car prep woudl obviously be additional
that would be figuring for those of us from the central jersey/north philly area taht it would cost a tank of gas each way to travel. it is certainly possible, depending how things work out, that it woudl cost more, but that is the target price range that it appears reasonable to aim for.

[NJSPEEDER]

in thinking of how to make this event happen i started thinking about having our own specific classes. most of the ECTA/SCTA classes are based on engine displacement and fuel type, and aerodynamic bodywork.
since our membership and most of the other clubs that have expressed interest are predominantly street cars, i don't think the aerodynamics other than stock/bolt on aftermarket body work are too big a deal. which leaves everything based on engines. i think the easiest way to do it would be to seperate by displacement, then have break downs with in each displacement class for n/a, nitrous, and boosted. we coudl give out awards/trophies for the top vehicle in each class, and maybe have special "king of the hill" awards/trophies for the top 3 overall.
wht do you think? any other awards/ideas for the event?

[98tadriver]

i pegged my 155mph speedo + more on rt 55 one night from exit 27 to somewhere between 24 and 26. i went on www.f-body.org/gears and it said 172mph i was at 5700rpm in 5th stock tires stock gears

NJSPEEDER

first off, this is something we are looking at for the 2008 event season.
some background on the idea. the east coast timing association runs land speed meets on an old airport runway in maxton, va. it is a 1.1 mile acceleration course with about a mile of shut down/slow down area.
working in cooperation with some other regional clubs the idea was presented to have see if we coudl do an all f-body meet for fun and to sort out who exactly can bring home the bragging rights of fastest in the land.

EDIT: there is no maxton VA

maxton, NC

geography nazis FTW

[EchoMirage]

id do it, espeically with a year to prepare....like id trailer my car down. but, i think id rather go with your option #2, set it up ourself with our own rules. i dont know about anyone else, but i for one just dont want to start hacking up my car. to me, its a collectors item, and nothing ive done so far cant be put back to stock in a weekend. if this includes a cage, new rear, new hubs/spindles/whatever they talked about, then id be out. id rather get another car, and make it into a racer that i didnt care so much about the appearance/value. but im not going to do that just for one event. maybe if you can find out what the extra cost would be to host it ourselves? there might be less people there, but that could mean more runs for each car.

[NJSPEEDER]

i am in search of some way to relate 1/4 mile trap speeds to peak speeds for the 1mile course at maxton. hopefully a few of their members hit the drag strip with their cars before so i can come up with some sort of mathematical comparison to give everyone an idea of what they will run and the related safety equipment.

[98tadriver]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i am in search of some way to relate 1/4 mile trap speeds to peak speeds for the 1mile course at maxton. hopefully a few of their members hit the drag strip with their cars before so i can come up with some sort of mathematical comparison to give everyone an idea of what they will run and the related safety equipment.

After i get a new trans, how about i run my car down a str8 back road with no intersections and/or cars? (and plenty of time to stop of course.) and i will have flags marking the 1/4, 1/2 and full mile, and a stop watch and all that jazz? then you can have something to base your research on?

to give u an idea, on a good day, i hit 0-60 in 5 secs or less. roughly 330' or (1/16th mile?) i cover a 1/4 mile in 12.5 secs @ 112mph. and its still pullin' hard. averages out to like 28mph/4seconds. i can go from 60-150 mph in a lil over 1/2 mile (most likely 5/8 mile) and then i had let off since i was going to run out of str8 road. so from 0-150 i can cover it within 11/16 of a mile, leaving me a lil more than a 1/4 mile to go faster; and with no speed limiter, she still accelerates past 150. there will be a point where the car doesnt accelerate quite as fast (aerodynamics, drag etc etc). i would say after 130mph the car doesnt pull quite as hard as it did when going to 100mph; this would be because im shifting into 5th. OD gear + drag = slower accel. But I must say, 4th gear pulls like a raped ape

[NJSPEEDER]

time is not really helpful, it is speed that all the safety requirements relate to. there should be a pretty direct relationship between 1/4 speed and 1 mile speed, just like converting from 1/8 to 1/4 trap speed

[EchoMirage]

before my headers, and on ****** goodyears, my best 1/4 trap was 108...if that helps any

[98tadriver]

i figured that people came up with the formula to figure out 1/4 mile runs based on 1/8th mile runs thru trial and error. maybe it was from watching a bunch of 1/4 mile runs, looking at the 1/8th mile on each of those runs and then adding the speeds and then dividing by the number of runs to get an average? I trap 87-88 mph in the 1/8th, and 111-112mph in the 1/4, thats 24-25 mph picked up between the 1/8th and 1/4 mile.

[EchoMirage]

im not sure about the formulas, but i think with such a distance between the 1/4 and full mile, gearing would come into play. maybe not so much with the 1/8 to 1/4. just for an example, a lower hp moter with deeper gears could run the same trap as a higher hp motor with steep gears....one would have the advantage of gearing, the other through shear power. though at a mile, the deeper geared car would run out of breath, while taller geared would keep pulling......at least so i think.....

[V]

hence why im sticking with my 3.42s, if i ever go for all out speed(like 2+miles), i got a set of 2.41s going in my spare 10 bolt.

[NJSPEEDER]

from what i am reading, down course the gearing actualy means less and less the faster you are going. gear splits in the trans appear to be a factor, but final drive doesn't seem to have much effect on the result.
brute horse power seems to be the name of the game. all of the fastest carshave monster engines and weigh well over 2 tons.

[wrxdriver]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

brute horse power seems to be the name of the game. all of the fastest carshave monster engines and weigh well over 2 tons.

A good part of that is because most of the Maxton crowd also runs at Bonneville (driving on salt = driving on ice) - and most people have no budget to build a 2nd car for pavement LSR. (Although with the semi-recent addition of a runway in Texas, maybe that will change)

There was alot of discussion on the LSR mailing list a few years ago how fast a purpose-built for Maxton streamliner or lakester might go.

[98tadriver]

I cant wait until that weekend! I feel strangely comfortable with driving at high speeds.