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Old 07-30-2020, 10:50 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by BonzoHansen View Post
4th gen f bodies don't, at least LS cars. They got away from it in general for a reason. Nonetheless swap guys definitely had that issue on long hot rides - like 1+ hour summer rides
I know on the truck side, i think 03 or 04 they went to a dead head, non return fuel system.

Aftermarket high HP guys who go back to a return system have issues with hot fuel because the fuel returns goes directly into the fuel bucket. This is good when the tank is low as it helps keep the pump cool and prevents starvation but on a long and hot cruise the fuel can really start heating up.

Common breather on lots of trucks is to run the breather line up from the tank to the fuel door along the filler neck, and put a little carb style filter (like beggs and adam mentioned) right next to the gas cap
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:22 AM   #152
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2nd the II Much stuff. Nice piece. Also used for Diff venting.

While I have heard of return style system issues, I haven't run into any. For simplicity, I build them with the return back by the filter/ regulator nowadays. Biggest issue I've run into fueling wise on so called built cars is improper pump & injector sizing along with inadequate wiring for pump. You don't have this issue Dave.

OEs went this way for cheaper cost (less material & labor) & to eliminate extra heat being added to the fuel.
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Old 07-31-2020, 05:42 PM   #153
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awesome. thanks for the input guys.

I think my first attempt at fixing it will be trying a new vented gas cap. AC delco GT195 was recommended to me, and I have also seen some other fully vented ones. If that does not solve the issue, I will be dong what you fellas recommend, and get a small little breather and connect it to the capped off evap tube by the axle. I'll get on this next week, but I do appreciate the input and help!


On wednesday I picked up that front set of skinnies that Joey D was selling. ( http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69132 ). 15" JEGS SSR wheels with Mickey Thompson Sportsman SR tires. I drove over to his house and test fit them. the research I did on the corvette forum mentioned that I might need a small spacer, so I bought some in advance at Bruce's speed shop. Turns out I did need them! But the wheels fit and the price was very good. Thanks Joe, super awesome.









I am still chasing that 11.999 second timeslip, so I am certain these will help get me there one day. I am also hoping to pull a small wheelie one day, so these will help with that too.
- Therefore I am going to head over to Island Dragway tomorrow for the Summit ET Raceday and enter into the Trophy class. there is no test and tune this weekend at Island, so the next best thing is this. I have never done a raceday event, so this is all new to me. The trophy class seems the easiest for a newbie like me to attempt ( https://www.islanddragway.com/6852-2/ ). Not sure if I will get that 11.999 tomorrow because of the weather, so I might plan on a slower dial in, but instead try to pop a wheelie in the process of running a slower e.t and dial in. If I can do both, that would be fantastic, but unlikely.









Put the drag radials on the car today, the new-to-me skinnies, front sway bar removed, took the seats and sound system out, kept my tools packed in the toolboxes from the UMI autocross, and checked the holley GCF files. I also went to the local quarry and weighed the car with all the seats out and skinnies on, and it weighed 3,320 without me in it, and weighed 3,500 with me in the car and full tank of fuel. Joey D and I had weighed my existing 18" wheels (50 pounds) and the skinnies (35 pounds each).




I will get one (maybe 2) timeshot/test passes in the morning, and then 1pm is eliminations. I will probably get knocked out right away, but hopefully I can get either an 11 or a wheelie. I might even put some weight in the trunk, maybe, maybe not.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:21 PM   #154
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Since there was no "test and tune" class this weekend I decided to enter the car into a small little trophy class instead of going into the sportsman classes. I was basically using the class to do test and tune, and I only got two passes total unfortunately. But my wife was away for the day and I just really wanted to go to the track. I checked the weather forecast and decided Saturday would be the best day because Sunday (today) looked like rain. and it turns out Island canceled the nostalgia drags today so I am glad I went Saturday.















I have never done any type of bracket racing; just previously did test and tune days. I knew there was a lot more involved in bracket racing, but I decided to give it a shot. Knowing the hot summer weather was not helpful with my quest for an 11 second pass, I decided to try to work on my reaction time, launch, and to finally get to test my new shift light. Lots of cars racing in different classes meant that we all only got one test pass or "timeshot". I decided that I would put a safe WOT ignition tune in the car and I loaded one that has my WOT set to only 35 deg. Knowing that I would run slower, I decided to see if I could get the car to maximize front end lift by putting a lot of weight in the rear. for my first pass I put 200 pounds of weight in the trunk's lower well! sounds crazy, but when I chatted with some experienced racers, they said that many of them had done this earlier in life and I shouldn't feel too dumb about experimenting with this. I also lowered both the front and rear struts/shocks to the lowest setting. Had the front skinnies set at 35psi and the rear drag radials at 19psi. Did a good 2 gear burnout. I wanted to see how the car would leave off of a "high idle" and while focusing on actually really trying to get a better reaction time. My previous reactions times recently are all over the place, because i had been concerned with other aspects of the car/pass. So I launched from an 1,100 rpm high-idle and the car hooked fine but I don't think it pulled a wheel. The track photographer who was there did not get a photo either. bummer. . I also wanted to see how dialed-in my new shift light was, so I didnt shift until I saw it light up at 6,100, and then as soon as that happened I quickly looked at the dash to see where the tach's needle was and THEN I shifted. this caused me to hit the rev limiter at 6,500 . did this same routine again for the 2-3 shift (tack bulb on->glance at dash tach->actually shift) . but I learned that I should slightly lower down the shift light's dial setting. ran a slow e.t. and got smoked by a modified Track-hawk. but my reaction time was somewhat good (for me) and there were no other issues. 12.418 at 110.08 mph. (remember 200 lbs in the trunk, hit revv limiter on both shifts, and a "safe" 35 deg WOT timing)




Since we only had that one time-shot to base our Dial-in for round 1 from, I kept the ECU tune the same, lowered the shift light rpm, and decided to put another 100 pounds in the trunk. so thats 300 lbs in the trunk total (bringing my car weight to 3,800 with me in it). it seems somewhat foolish, but I would rather experiment and try, instead of never trying and not knowing. I wrote a 12.45 dial on the window despite knowing the rule that 100 pounds will add a tenth to an e.t., but I planned on not tagging the rev limiter so I was ok with a 12.45 dial in. Welp, I got an unlucky draw against a guy who has a very dialed in car and is very consistent. So i got knocked out when he went 14.261 on his 14.26 dial in! However, the 300 pounds in the trunk is indeed getting the nose to lift, but again no track photographer (they took breaks because of the heat) so I can not verify if I am close to lifting a wheel yet or not. Honestly, I think I am not, but I am probably really close to having the drivers side front tire up high enough that is is just gliding on the track for a moment. the extra weight caused my pass to be slower, but I am fine with that. I was a little bit better on the tree with a .117 reaction time. But this is new to me and one day I will look back and laugh at my previous .4xx and .5xx reaction times. I later spoke to Jerry (theHazGuy) about some tips and tricks on how to react/time a tree. He has been super helpful to me, along with a lot of the other racers I hungout with and chatted with yesterday. I learned a lot.

Anyways, I got knocked out in round 1, as expected. Only got two passes, but learned a ton from people and drove the car home with no issues. I feel that the adjustment on the shift light is pretty well set, so maybe 1 or 2 more passes and I will lock it in for good. Up to yesterday, I;'ve never had to react/shift from a shift light bulb, but I will get used to it soon I am sure. I plan on going to the Test and Tune this upcoming Sunday August 9th.


I took screenshots of the datalogs for my two passes. I am also pretty happy with the values in my LEARN table too. I know the extra weight in the trunk effected the load on the engine, so some numbers up top aren't really low, but I wont be loading hundreds of pounds of weights in the car for long, probably just experiment one more time if a track-photographer is there. could also try a go pro mounted low on the car facing the front drivers side tire.









Datalog of Run 1:
dark read RPM line, shows me leaving off an 1,100 rpm high-idle and the converter flashing around 2,800 (but its a 3,400 converter.. is this normal??), I hit the revv limiter at the top of both shifts (flat spot on dark red line). ignition timing is the flat green line and was 35 deg at WOT. AFR seems well dialed in (except rev limiter moment and at shift)







Datalog from Run 2:
Left from a 1,600 rpm and converter flashes right around 2,800 rpm. timing is 35 deg. Was much better on the shifts with the 1->2 shift at 6,289 and the 2->3 shift at 6,356 rpm. crossing the finish line lower than usual in the rpm band (at 5,480 rpm but I also have an extra 300 pounds in the trunk). CL comp% and learn were also pretty good.





Only one in-car video from yesterday which was pass 1 against the trackhawk. I must have double clicked the go-pro camera button because for pass 2 I only have a 1second clip! whoops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyPNq2osf9s
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:43 PM   #155
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That seems like a LOT of RPM drop every shift.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:50 PM   #156
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I had thought that too when I looked at some logs back in early June. I looked at my dyno sheet and noticed that it is dropping to just before where the top of peak torque is (see dyno sheet on page 1 of this thread), so, I assumed this was normal? Also, I was unaware of what I could even do about it, so I didn't dwell on it too long. If its bad/negative/ not optimal and there is a fix for it, I am all ears!
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:10 PM   #157
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Assuming 26in tires and 3.73 gears, with that trap speed/RPM, you are slipping 3.351% I think. Which is pretty good IMO.

Have you shown the data plot to the torque converter guy?
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:42 PM   #158
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correct on the 26" tires, but I have a 3.55 gear ratio in the rear...not 3.73s

unfortunately all this is real new to me, so if you are able to enlighten me a little bit about how you can calculate slippage etc, that would be awesome

I had the converter re-freshed back in February before the engine was even running, just based off of the cam, gears, engine build, weight, and multi-use street car gameplan. I haven't talked to him since back then. he also knew I was going to use nitrous in the future so it was spec'd for that too.

let me know any thoughts/ideas. many people yesterdays aid my converter was holding me back from some mid-11 second drag passes, but after I explained that its a true street car that is drive to the track, driven to shows, autocrossed, etc there was more understanding on why we went with a 3,400 converter instead of something like a 4,200 converter.
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Old 08-02-2020, 07:45 PM   #159
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That brings it to 8.6% which is still pretty good I believe, but I would def suggest calling Edge and seeing how they feel about that RPM drop every shift.

(I was using this site for calculating slip https://www.tciauto.com/racing-calculators)
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:18 PM   #160
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Thanks Matt

I decided to call Andre at Edge Racing converters this afternoon just to settle my thoughts and ask his expert advice. I had a few questions which have been rolling around in my head, and the topics have been covered here and with other friends of mine, but I figured it would only help me to speak with him. he built my converter with the most important aspect being the "STR factor" or "street" parameters setup that his company calculates. The street nature of the car along with all the car/engine specs were taken into account along the way. He knew that my future plans did/do include nitrous use so he made the converter tighter so that it doesn't "flash through" when nitrous is in use next year.


He confirmed that the converter flashing at 2,800 rpm after leaving off of a high idle at 1,200 or so, is normal. He described the converter in having a " true-stall of 3,100plus ". He stated that if I wanted to have the best/highest converter flash-stall, I would be best leaving off of a dead idle (mine idle is set at 920 rpms). More important than flash-stall is true stall of the converter. Flash-stall is not necessarily where I need to launch the car every time. I was not doing this during the session this past Saturday when I had the 300 lbs in the trunk, I now will try this next time). As for my rpm drop between shifts, he stated that for the street car aspect that this car is, that the 1,500 rpm drop between shifts is normal. If the car was a full blown 1/4 mile car he would want the rpm drop to be only about 1,000 rpm.. and for an 1/8th mile car the rpm drop would be only about 800 rpm. If the car was setup for drag race only he would have the converter stall speed at 4,000-4,200 rpm. The best for me now (with plans for nitrous this winter) is keeping this 3,400 converter as is. "Nitrous will cause a higher flash and higher K factor". As for the 8.6% converter slip (that Matt calculated with the extra weight in the trunk) this number is pretty good. He said to do some fresh passes with no weight in the trunk and launching from an idle and then calculate slippage again. I also asked him if there would be any benefit to me manually locking-up the converter at any time during the run. He said it wouldn't cause any problems mechanically with the converter because it has high-carbon internals and would not ever glaze or depreciate. It would get closer to 1:1 ratio when in lockup, but this would then get me more "out of the sweet spot", and would cause even more of a drop in rpm's between the shifts, so basically "it would be a slow dog" if I locked it up during a pass. (I did actually try this back on June 6th, and i remember that it did exactly this so I never re-visited locking it up during a run but wanted to ask him anyways). I asked him about the wheelie aspect, and he recommended that for this I would be better off launching completely opposite as discussed before. My 60ft and et would suffer negatively, but I would have a better chance of lifting the nose up if I brought the rpms up as high as possible on the foot-brake and then pouncing on the throttle.

So, launch from as high rpm as my brakes can hold for a wheelie attempt, but for the best/quickest drag pass possible, leave from a 920rpm idle.


He is confident that with nitrous on this converter the car will fly. It is currently doing fantastic with street manners, its right there at the autocross, and is doing moderately well for N/A drag racing.. but when I get the nitrous into this car...this converter will come alive. This sound right? basically I am currently just experiencing the results of having a mutli-use car but the "slower" N/A drag passes will give way to much better use of the converter when the 200 shot starts flowing.*



comments questions concerns are always appreciated!
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:42 PM   #161
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I was wondering about the trap speed as well
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:12 PM   #162
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mystifies me too guys, it really does.
my best trap speed was only 113 mph when I ran the 12.07 pass back in late June. I wish I knew what needed to be sorted out to really let this car fly, which is why I am on here daily (and elsewhere) asking questions and trying to learn what needs to be done to set the car alive. I've even checked over the silly stuff on the car like making sure all wheels spin freely and no brakes are dragging.
- Datalogs, VE table, fuel flow numbers, sniper data says the engine is doing its job and is in spec with producing the 530 hp. yet, the power-train seems to rob a lot of power (seat of the pants feel, lack of brutal pulling power the whole 2nd half of the track). I know my exhaust setup isn’t optimal, but I don’t think it’s robbing that much top end power ? Maybe it is
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Old 08-06-2020, 10:40 AM   #163
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as for the converter topic, especially the rpm drop between shifts, I mentioned the same thing on Thirdgen.org and one of the guys who has been helping me throughout my build replied with this:

" From what I've worked out , both mathematically and empirically is :

6500 rpm 1st gear shift to ~3420 in 2nd.
6500 rpm 2nd gear shift to ~4010 in 3rd.
6000 rpm 2nd gear shift to ~3700 in 3rd.

That's based on the 700R4/4L60 gear ratios of 3.06 and 1.62 (1st and 2nd respectively). This does not account for the characteristics of the converter.
​​​​With my off the shelf 10" TCI, I'm estimating about a 10% slippage. There's always been a significant RPM drop from 1st to 2nd. It's not so much from 2nd to 3rd as you can see in the above.
Now the empirical part came from racing with my own Camaro and a similarly prepared 82 Monte Carlo. My 1-2 was always crisp although the ratio split made for a terrible shift. The 2-3 shift was generally slow despite the tighter gearing. That was with a home prepped 700 with the usual stuff and the 10" converter. Now enter the Monte with the same converter and transmission. Predictably the same results. Later that season we swapped in a spec 9.5" Yank. Surprisingly (to me anyway) was that data logs showed that the engine RPMs never fell below 5000 regardless of the gear it was in. 6500 1-2 shift landed at 5000. Same on the 2-3. That car picked up 2/10ths.
This to me demonstrated the importance of having a converter tailor made for the application. And a specific application at that. Not only that but having a thoroughly built transmission pays off too. My home brew rebuild was sent to a specialty shop (an acquaintance of mine actually). I spec'd a pile of Sonax and new GM parts for it and let my guy do his thing. The results are nothing short of spectacular. Shifts are blazingly fast at WOT. Even the previously sloppy 2-3 shift is instant.
Now although I've stepped up in the converter game with another TCI, it's not going to compare to the likes of a Yank or an Edge that's made for my car as you guys have. "


that info and much more can be found on my "engine" thread on TGo :
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...install-3.html




otherwise


I hope to back to Island on Sunday to experiment with launching from a dead idle. I am also considering removing the cat back exhaust for a day of testing? I know that some of you guys are making due with a 3" exhaust and are making more power than I am, but I became curious about if my DynoDon's mid length headers, Dyno dons y-pipe and hooker 3" full cat back (gutted cat tho) was too restrictive. I do have an electric cutout mid way along the 3" main pipe, and I leave this open while racing, so I never thought much more into it as being restrictive. I played with an exhaust size calculator and in general terms, a 3" single pipe exhaust is really only good for 370 hp. Another calculator shows I would need about 3.6" diameter pipe for 531 hp.

- On my other build thread (the one started a few years ago) I knew I would need to upgrade the exhaust later, but it was not in the budget for this year or for the N/A setup. My plans were/are to put a mufflex 4" exhaust and some long tubes on the car this winter when the nitrous gets installed and along with the roll bar. I am wondering if I should bother leaving the headers and y pipe on but taking the rest of the cat-back off the car for this sunday's test and tune day. Its hardly more than 20 minutes of work and this would remove the two tailpipes, muffler, over axle pipe, and part of the main pipe...removing maybe 40 pounds of weight and possibly freeing up exhaust flow??.. I cant take off the y-pipe and run open headers because of where the o2 sensor is and it would get false readings. thoughts?
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:59 PM   #164
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Your exhaust probably isn't doing you any favors but I can't see it being a major restriction.

Go ahead and drop the cat back and run without it, see if you can free some more top end power up. Won't hurt to lost the 40# either. You could take the air filter off and see if you can free restrictions from both ends

Good luck and let us know how it goes
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:30 PM   #165
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It may be in this thread but curious of two things.

1. Where does the engine make it's power? A good peak number doesn't suggest great power under the curve. I wonder if there is some untapped power that may be better seen on a chassis dyno with more tweaks.

2. Did you determine if you have enough air filter and/or have run with it off? Would the tune compensate for any extra air flow?
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Old 08-06-2020, 09:27 PM   #166
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yep, I am probably going to take the cat back off. I am guessing it weighs about 40 pounds, but I'll do my best to weigh it once it is off for an actual number. Will do this saturday afternoon after I get home from the car show in hackettstown.

-I have been taking the air cleaner/filter completely off since back in early June. So the datalogs, tune, and learn data from the track sessions is all with the air filter off. Back in march I did a few passes with the air filter on and some with it off. I also did a few highway rips with air filter on and off and sent these files to the tuner. Overall, the MAp only drops by 1 with air filter on, so it was nice to learn that it is not a huge air restriction when it is on. But again, at Island, the air cleaner comes off and gets put into a box for the day, but I put it back on when I pack up the car and set off for the drive home.

as for the horsepower, it made over 500 hp from 5,300-6,400 rpms. So I guess that's is powerband?

I called the engine builder and he said to shift between 6,200-6,300 and to set my rev limiter at 6,500. so thats what I am doing. On pass #2 of this past weekend I shifted great, but again, there was 300 pounds in the trunk and I was at 35 deg WOT timing. My target afr for peak power is 12.5:1 and the sniper is keeping it right there with some very minor corrections in CL Comp%

chris: I did some fiberglass work and body filler work to the passenger side rocker panel you gave me. still needs some more sanding and fine tuning in the coming week, but hopefully I will have it painted soon.

I chatted with the local performance shop in the next town over and they now have their chassis dyno up and running. Pretty sure he wants to sell me a tune along with dyno time for around $450. I am on the fence about this because I know I will need the car tuned and dynoed in the spring once the nitrous is on it. For nitrous dyno time he chargs $650, which also includes base tuning. So I am thinking it is financially smarter to not do a N/A tune for $450 now, and then have to pay another $650 come springtime. Part of me is saying to hold my money and wait for spring to do the N/A tune and the nitrous tune at the same time for one price.


car show saturday at the Lowes in Hackettstown. It usually gets a lot of cars but this year it is limited to 300 entries. They do have a live band, some extra displays and stuff so its a good one to go to if you are looking to get out and about on saturday. Sunday I'll head to the track.
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Old 08-07-2020, 07:55 AM   #167
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Thanks for the info. Per the engine dyno, it's making good steam so I'd suggest the following which has already been mentioned.

- Ditch the 300lbs in the trunk.
- Remove the catback

I feel like the 300lbs is robbing of you of about 30HP (usual rough calc of folks saying 100lb = 10 hp). You are also racing in some pretty hot temps so the DA is likely garbage so you may only see modest gains. I wouldn't go too nuts shooting for your number right now but you should see better results naturally in the late Fall. You may be leaving 50+HP on the table with all things considered which assumes your catback isn't a restriction.

I agree that I wouldn't spend money on a retune now and wait until you are ready to spray it.

I'll be at the show on Saturday with the Bird. Larry (TAKid455) extended an invite for the car to be at his booth. Hopefully no issues pop up as this will be it's longest ride since all the things were rebuilt/redone. It won't be cleaned up properly either but it will be fine.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:45 PM   #168
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cool, sounds good to me. I know I am a bit impatient to run a good number at the track, so I am hyped up to do it soon, but come cooler weather in the Fall, that will be the plan also.

I will see you and Larry tomorrow at the show. Prob Chris will be there too and a few of the other car show regulars. cool .
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