Getting my final plan together.

[johnjzjz]

does it run ???? # 1 ---- why did u take it apart if it did # 2 ---- and i thought you were puting it together for the spring time ???? what is the plan and how are you going to do it --

[WayFast84]

It soposedly ran strong, in a 50's lead sled. I took it apart cause no matter what heads i go with i will be doing heads/cam. The time to get the car runing is august 8 2007

[Tru2Chevy]

Matt, how much is it going to cost you to return the heads you have?

Also, show us a link to the heads that you have.

- Justin

[Tru2Chevy]

I don't see why you would bother to return them. By the time you sent them back, then bought another set and had them prepped to slap on the 400 you wouldn't be saving much (if any) and you will have put a lot of unnecessary time into them.

What's the story with the bottom end on this motor? Are you just gonna bolt some heads and a cam in and hope for the best, or are you going to rebuild it?

- Justin

[Batman]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

What is the difference between these & the ones he has, the steam holes? How much does that cost to do, and how much does it cost to return the other ones (shipping, restock fee, etc.)?

Steam holes for 1, (the going rate up here is $175 to have them drilled and it is an "Oh well" if they crack them), and he got the updated castings from summit, they don't flow as well. The pace heads should be the stock GM one's with steam holes already drilled and higher lift springs added, and they cost less then what he has. even if it costs him $40 to return the other ones (which summit is normally pretty good at working with you) he would still have another money in his pocket and a good head that is up for the job and brand new. Only thing I don't know is his cam lift, I think the springs on this head are good to .550". If you decide to go to the 350 engine Pace also has 2 high flow Vortec heads to choose from, although they cost more. If you are rebuilding the bottom end I, and this is just me, would de-stroke the 400 and make it a 377....but that's me....

[Tru2Chevy]

Originally Posted by Batman

Steam holes for 1, and he got the updated castings from summit, they don't flow as well. The pace heads should be the stock GM one's with steam holes already drilled and higher lift springs added, and they cost less then what he has. even if it costs him $40 to return the other ones (which summit is normally pretty good at working with you) he would still have another money in his pocket and a good head that is up for the job and brand new. Only thing I don't know is his cam lift, I think the springs on this head are good to .550"

Ahh, I didn't realize that the ones he has don't flow as well.

In that case, then maybe you should return them Matt. Getting the ones that Batman mentioned could be good, and they will handle any nice streetable cam that you choose.

- Justin

[WayFast84]

im going to return my heads, and Im really thinking about Johns offer, i think i might take him up on that. idk yet i dont know about those heads much.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Matt,

What is your budget to get the motor completed? Without knowing your budget, this is all window dressing. You need to clearly define the budget and stay within it. Otherwise it can and will become a slipperly slope to no where land.....I also think you need to have someone with more experience than yourself look over the bottom end. Did you run a leak down test or at least a compression test prior to popping the heads off? Without that info you have no verifiable way to know the general condition of the motor o ther than the previous owners word???. Can you see any cross hatch in the cylinder bores? Is there a carbon ridge at the top of the cylinders? Has the motor ever been rebuilt, meaning is it already 0.030 over?

I am not being difficult, but you need to know the condition of the bottom end, figure out what can be reused, then proceed with the rebuild. If you stab a nice cam in and bolt on a nice set of vortecs only to discover the bottom end has issues after your money is gone, where does that leave you?

The more homework you do know the more rewarding the outcome will be.

Without knowing your alloted budget, its kinda tough to make recommendations on heads, as that is the main expenditure. Everything else is pretty much a fixed cost, but heads can vary big time in $$$$.

At the very least, I would pop off the main caps and check the bearings for any signs of wear, same with a few of the rod caps. If all check out ok, and there was still some sign of cross hatch in the cylinders, then leave the bottom end alone for now. Money saved. Clean, the head mating surfaces thoroughly, but be gentle don't gouge or grind the surface. Use a composite type head gasket as they are more forgiving if the surface is less than perfect. Run the heads that make sense for your budget, if iron vortecs meet your requirements then so be it. Cam (hyd. flat tappet like what has been suggested) to match the heads. Valvetrain (springs, retainers, pushrods, rockers) to match the cam and the intended rpm range. RPM airgap intake with an MSD 6AL to light the fire (has the rev limiter built in, chips are used to adjust) with the 750-800 cfm carb probably a vacuum secondary for use with the 700r4 and maybe a little bit more economy.

Emissions might be a little tough, but with the right timing and carb adjustment you should be ok.

400 are great motors, make great power. The stock 5.565 rods are kinda weak, but in a street motor they should be good to the occasional 6000 blast. If the short block did need attention, I'd immediatley go to a 5.7 rod/piston combo.

But without knowing the budget......its all.....well...just a guess

Chris

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

im returning everything but the summit distributor..I also now dont care about how low the et is off the bat, because im doing a roll bar instead of sfc..

what do you mean by sfc?

[WayFast84]

my budget is a grand. I got, a cam,intake,distributer,heads for 980 so im sure i could make the budget with used heads or cheaper heads...

i mean sub frame conectors. how do i perform a leak down test and other things?

edit, My budget for the motor is 1 grand, but ill have like 300 extra just incase even though thats more for the chasis/suspension

[BonzoHansen]

Too late for leakdown - heads are off, right?

[WayFast84]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Too late for leakdown - heads are off, right?

1 head is 1 isnt

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

my budget is a grand. I got, a cam,intake,distributer,heads for 980 so im sure i could make the budget with used heads or cheaper heads...

i mean sub frame conectors. how do i perform a leak down test and other things?

edit, My budget for the motor is 1 grand, but ill have like 300 extra just incase even though thats more for the chasis/suspension

a leak down test is done with the motor still assembled and basically air is pumped into a cylinder and the percentage of that air that leaks out past the rings is used to determine the overall condition of the cylinder bore/ring package. Typical street engines should have 7-8% or so....once you get around 10-12% or above you are looking at new rings or possibly boring the motor oversize $$$$

$1000 for the motor and purchasing heads is really tight. Let me look around and see what's available..at that price level you will have to do all the assembly yourself or get some help for free.....there is no room in that budget to farm out assembly and hopefully you don't need any machine work.

As for the chassis mods, a roll bar without sub frame connectors is kinda silly, they should go hand in hand because the roll bar (assuming a 6 or 8 point bar) is going to have struts that come off the main hoop that should tie into the subframe connectors. Any chassis shop worth their salt would do both connectors and the roll bar, and btw....that **** ain't cheap either. Look at S&W Race cars, the sell pre-bent kits for DIYer, but you need to have a welder and some fabrications skills.

http://www.swracecars.com/roll_bars.asp

Stay focused on your goal Matt, you seem to be wandering a bit.....

Chris

[WayFast84]

Im getting back on track with the help of tim, Tim said the samething about sfc's and a roll bar, some one told me both arent necessary, but W/E I really trust a few people here and sent some pm's out to people on the site who build motors or trans's because this is going to be alot different, Im dead serious this is my project and my phone, I want it done right, and im gonna do it right the first time.

[deadtrend1]

sfc's are worth it. roll bar is unnecessary right now unless you are running with a ET low enough to require one. SFC's were the first thing i put on the 96, and will be the first mod to the 86 as soon as i get it within a few feet of a welder....

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

Matt,

What is your budget to get the motor completed? Without knowing your budget, this is all window dressing. You need to clearly define the budget and stay within it. Otherwise it can and will become a slipperly slope to no where land.....I also think you need to have someone with more experience than yourself look over the bottom end. Did you run a leak down test or at least a compression test prior to popping the heads off? Without that info you have no verifiable way to know the general condition of the motor o ther than the previous owners word???. Can you see any cross hatch in the cylinder bores? Is there a carbon ridge at the top of the cylinders? Has the motor ever been rebuilt, meaning is it already 0.030 over?

I am not being difficult, but you need to know the condition of the bottom end, figure out what can be reused, then proceed with the rebuild. If you stab a nice cam in and bolt on a nice set of vortecs only to discover the bottom end has issues after your money is gone, where does that leave you?

The more homework you do know the more rewarding the outcome will be.

Without knowing your alloted budget, its kinda tough to make recommendations on heads, as that is the main expenditure. Everything else is pretty much a fixed cost, but heads can vary big time in $$$$.

At the very least, I would pop off the main caps and check the bearings for any signs of wear, same with a few of the rod caps. If all check out ok, and there was still some sign of cross hatch in the cylinders, then leave the bottom end alone for now. Money saved. Clean, the head mating surfaces thoroughly, but be gentle don't gouge or grind the surface. Use a composite type head gasket as they are more forgiving if the surface is less than perfect. Run the heads that make sense for your budget, if iron vortecs meet your requirements then so be it. Cam (hyd. flat tappet like what has been suggested) to match the heads. Valvetrain (springs, retainers, pushrods, rockers) to match the cam and the intended rpm range. RPM airgap intake with an MSD 6AL to light the fire (has the rev limiter built in, chips are used to adjust) with the 750-800 cfm carb probably a vacuum secondary for use with the 700r4 and maybe a little bit more economy.

Emissions might be a little tough, but with the right timing and carb adjustment you should be ok.

400 are great motors, make great power. The stock 5.565 rods are kinda weak, but in a street motor they should be good to the occasional 6000 blast. If the short block did need attention, I'd immediatley go to a 5.7 rod/piston combo.

But without knowing the budget......its all.....well...just a guess

Chris

Hi he being very young and not knowing little more than the BUZZ words he is not going to be able to understand exactly what you are talking about or do the kind of checking you corectly talked about, ( and they have him confused ) , its all well to have all these things heads cams what ever - but he has no idea what he is getting into and the more he reads the comic books ( super chevy ) and alike posts on sites who we all know are full of it -- the deaper into believing he needs all this stuff -- what happened to your first car HZHHZHHAHAH in a first car still two years away from getting to drive it -- if i and others were able to explain he first should only listen to one or 2 guys, who do this and follow the directions that make what he is trying to do -- smart choices -- the very first thing is to as has been said check the rotating assembly, it has dish pistons so compression w/ a 72 cc head is around 8 to 1 not going to be peppy with out smaller chamber or a flat piston top -- one of the better places to get stuff from is the place i use --- www.competitionproducts.com --- or -- www.DougHerbert.com --
both will send paper catalogs and have very good pricing, jegs and summit are the K marts of the performance buzz and some of the cheap stuff they sell is seconds and thirds if you can believe their is a third --( JUNK ) sent back same set of heads 4 times till i got a set that dident have blems and still had to re do the valve job, and cut them flat -- but they were a good deal customer said -- jz

[hardline_42]

Hey Matt, I'm glad your getting psyched about your project again, but a word of warning: If you keep changing your plans, you'll never finish. If you're looking for a good street machine, do the compression test and leak-down test like they told you (I did a compression test on it when I first bought it and it was tight). If there aren't any issues, then stay with the bottom end as-is and throw the Vortecs you bought on them and go to town. Enjoy your car and gain some driving experience first. IMHO, I wouldn't recommend a radical build as your first engine project. Believe it or not, even if you are successful in building a car that can get you in the low 11's, it might not be the best choice for a first car. I wanted a big-block Chevelle as my first car and i got stuck with a Honda Accord. In hindsight, I probably would have killed myself or someone else if I had a 400 HP car back then. Anyway, my point is, it's great that you're serious about this build but IMO I would save the dedicated track car for later. Even from a mechanical standpoint, if you wanna build reliable power at that level, you need to start from scratch with a good internally-balanced roatating assembly, longer rods and forged pistons, and depending on your intended HP goal, splayed mains, a short-fill or other add-ons for strength. All of this equals LOTS of MONEY. Ask me how I know. I've had my 406 short block in the shop for months cuz I can't afford to pay it off all at once. This is your car after all, but my advice is to be a little more conservative with your build. I guarantee that even if you don't make it out of the 12's you'll still have a smile on your face every time you hit the gas.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

Im getting back on track with the help of tim, Tim said the samething about sfc's and a roll bar, some one told me both arent necessary, but W/E I really trust a few people here and sent some pm's out to people on the site who build motors or trans's because this is going to be alot different, Im dead serious this is my project and my phone, I want it done right, and im gonna do it right the first time.

That's a good thing. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. So after looking around and spending your $1000 (its always fun when its someone else's money) I can't come up with a combo that includes new heads (with enough valvespring to run mild performance cams), matched valvetrain (cam, lifters, pushrods, timing set, rocker arms), intake, carb, gaskets, bolts, distributor and stays on budget. It would be tough to assemble a matched and reliable heads with valve train for $1000 and still meet your performance goals. At that point you would still need an intake, distributor, carb, fuel pump, gaskets, bolts etc....lots of things pop up when doing a motor.

What heads were on the motor? Were they serviceable or did they have known problems? Why not reuse them? I'm just probing for info, cause the more info the better a decision can be made.

Chris

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

Im getting back on track with the help of tim, Tim said the samething about sfc's and a roll bar, some one told me both arent necessary, but W/E I really trust a few people here and sent some pm's out to people on the site who build motors or trans's because this is going to be alot different, Im dead serious this is my project and my phone, I want it done right, and im gonna do it right the first time.

You can do connectors without the roll bar and see results, but if you do the rollbar you should also do the connectors.

Chris

[NJSPEEDER]

a few reasons i suggested both as an alternative.
1. he would like to put the car into the low 11's someday requiring the roll bar
2. along with additional chassis stiffness a good set of subframes can provide mounting or an easy cross member install to get the torque arm off the transmission and get the transmission off the flimsy stamped factory mount.
3. a stiffer chassis is easier to tune the suspension for a consistant launch.
4. the stiffer chassis will reduce the wallow often associated with lower rate springs + race shocks(especially 90/10's in front) on the street.

the biggest thing is that i see as a benefit for someone in matt's position is that the stiffer the chassis, teh longer it will last under street/strip use. anyone who has been around racing a while can tell you how a chassis gets used up over time. a street car is no different, and since this is matt's first project we can all be sure that he will want it to last a long time.

just my $.02 on the topic

[johnjzjz]

2 and 3 gen race rollers backhalfed with a bar and maybe a 12 bolt or 9 inch and connectors some with race brakes 1500 to 2500 i see all the time ??? but that is off topic -- still used is 35 cents on the dollar -- now lets take his car -- is someone going to weld up a bar kit for him ??/// sub connectors, and fuel cell trunk floor mods, re locate the battery mounted to the rear trunk also attached too frame - w/ kill switch and required ground strap, race seat w/ top attached to bar cross section , with correct seat belt tabs welded facing the correct way to the same bar and lowers also to frame tricky on a 2/3 gen camaro , and the 3/8 - or 1/2" relocated fuel lines around the out side of the chassis in the flywheel area 11 second car requirement and faster -- to go that fast and be able to go to island you must be by the book or he will not be racing -- what a shame that would be -- is anyone helping him do that ?????? -- jz

[NJSPEEDER]

all he would need is someone to install the subframe connectors and weld up a roll bar kit. no fuel cell, floor mods, racing seat or asscoiated mounting brackets required.
with the bar the seat will have to be braced to the helmet bar on the roll bar, but that is an easy little thing to fab up when the bar is being installed. factory seats and brackets are acceptable in the NHRA down to 8.50 or 150mph i believe, unless they changed teh rule and i hadn't noticed.
battery relo is very very easy in a thirdgen as well. the spare tire well makes a perfect home for a very strong battery mount with easy access to safety switch locations.
there are certainly people around who can easily help with the installations needed to get the job done. there is also a healthy time frame invovled to make sure everything is done right.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

a few reasons i suggested both as an alternative.
1. he would like to put the car into the low 11's someday requiring the roll bar
2. along with additional chassis stiffness a good set of subframes can provide mounting or an easy cross member install to get the torque arm off the transmission and get the transmission off the flimsy stamped factory mount.
3. a stiffer chassis is easier to tune the suspension for a consistant launch.
4. the stiffer chassis will reduce the wallow often associated with lower rate springs + race shocks(especially 90/10's in front) on the street.

the biggest thing is that i see as a benefit for someone in matt's position is that the stiffer the chassis, teh longer it will last under street/strip use. anyone who has been around racing a while can tell you how a chassis gets used up over time. a street car is no different, and since this is matt's first project we can all be sure that he will want it to last a long time.

just my $.02 on the topic

I agree that both the bar and subframe connectors should be done if he is going to be racing in the 11's.

However, I think living with even a 6 point roll bar day-to-day is a pain in the ass. That said, I think he should only go with the subframe connectors until he absolutely positively needs to have a bar and knows that he will be at the track frequently enough to make good use of it.

[BonzoHansen]

This plan is getting big. You need to break it into smaller achievable plans.

Hey wayfast, what is your budget in time & expenses, meaning when do you need this done, and how much can you spend?

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

all he would need is someone to install the subframe connectors and weld up a roll bar kit. no fuel cell, floor mods, racing seat or asscoiated mounting brackets required.
with the bar the seat will have to be braced to the helmet bar on the roll bar, but that is an easy little thing to fab up when the bar is being installed. factory seats and brackets are acceptable in the NHRA down to 8.50 or 150mph i believe, unless they changed teh rule and i hadn't noticed.
battery relo is very very easy in a thirdgen as well. the spare tire well makes a perfect home for a very strong battery mount with easy access to safety switch locations.
there are certainly people around who can easily help with the installations needed to get the job done. there is also a healthy time frame invovled to make sure everything is done right.

I think we have started down that slippery slope...hold on tight....

Matt,
To do it right (those are your words) and that is the only way to do it, you do not have the $$$$. That is the truth. $1000 is not enough money to put together the top half of a motor with good heads and valvetrain, intake, carb and ignition. And this would still all be bolted onto a short block of unknown condition which even under the best circumstances doesn't have the right piston for a performance build (not the right way to do things).

Why not take the 400 clean it up bolt the heads back on, maybe throw a mild cam/lifters at it for $125 if it doesn't already have one (does it??). Put a nice intake/carb and ignition on it with good exhaust and enjoy the car. The motor is the easiest thing to upgrade at a later day. The experience you would gain from bolting your motor back together and doing a simple cam sway would reap rewards ten fold down the road. Get yourself a copy of David Vizards "How to Rebuild your small block chevy" and read it cover to cover until your eyes bleed.

You will never learn until you do it with your own hands. Expierence is an excellent teacher.

Save the money.......until you have more of it.

Chris