What would it take

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by bubba428

So based on the info in the 1st link do you think It would be better to go with the GM fast burn heads. They're numbers are also similar to the LS1 heads. I saw summit has them for 675 per head, and they're aluminum. I mean I could always get a P&P job on them to boost that up a bit but is that not a better start?

You need to talk to a serious engine builder and I think there are a few on this list. A 600hp 383sbc pump gas n/a is no run of the mill engine. You need serious cylinder heads, valvetrain, induction and a bottom end to withstand serious RPM. I am guessing 6800-7200 power peak (maybe more) and capable of turning 7500-7800?? Don't get totally hung up on flow numbers, you need the entire combo, but head flow will be important.

Talk to a pro....Don't try a piece this thing together using a Jegs or Summit Catalog or any other catalog for that matter. Have a nice long discussion with a pro, answer the questions, know your budget, know your tolerance levels. Know that the custom built carb for this engine will be about a $1000. Know that a stock t56 won't last long with sticky tires at the track. Know that the fuel system for this motor could be pretty expensive $1000? A solid roller valvetrain will be $1000 at least....

Have you ever seen or driven or been in a car that has an honest 600 hp N/A motor? A small block? Not a 540 inch BBC, Not 450hp crate 383, not 500 hp 406, but 600 hp 383...not on spray.....not with boost, not at 13 to 1 compression, but good old fashioned crack the throttle and let her rip 600 hp on pump gas? I haven't, but would love to go for a ride in one....

600hp at the crank in a 3200lb car is a mid 10 second ride......at least

There is a sign on the wall in a friends shop and it reads something to this effect:

Pick any two of the following three things:
1. Fast Car
2. Cheap Price
3. Good Work

Because

A fast car with good work don't come cheap.

A fast car at a cheap price won't stay together long

A car with good work and cheap price isn't fast.


Do your homework.....

[bubba428]

Originally Posted by bubba428

Thank you...thats all I was trying to get. I do plan on doing a whole lot more research while I set aside funds to get this car in racing shape.

Originally Posted by bubba428

I most likely won't touch anything till next winter when I have more than enough money and have all the parts I want in a final set list.

how many times do I have to repeat myself? you keep saying "do your homework" WTF do you think I'm doing. I'm asking a question to try to get ideas and advice on how to go about it.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by bubba428

So based on the info in the 1st link do you think It would be better to go with the GM fast burn heads. They're numbers are also similar to the LS1 heads. I saw summit has them for 675 per head, and they're aluminum. I mean I could always get a P&P job on them to boost that up a bit but is that not a better start?

Originally Posted by bubba428

how many times do I have to repeat myself? you keep saying "do your homework" WTF do you think I'm doing. I'm asking a question to try to get ideas and advice on how to go about it.

When you suggest to use GM fast burn heads on a 383 to make 600 hp, that is not doing homework. When you then mention you can get them for 675 in summit that is a clear indication that you do not have the means to support your desires. Not taking shots at you, just making an observation.

Here is something I found real quick, I don't know these guys or anything just for some quick numbers:

http://www.cmengines.com/Engines/Str...5/Default.aspx

Notice the 383 is not offered above 500 hp.

Notice the 434 is used beyond that point, because the cubes make it easier to make the power. This was suggested by others. The 434 comes with a "new" block, meaning aftermarket, this was suggested by others. And you are still short of 600hp and that is at 11 to 1.....the ragged edge of pump gas for a carbed engine, again mentioned previously in this thread.

http://www.rocketindustries.com.au/s...es&brand=World

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ine/index.html

These guys bypass the 383 altogether and if you want 600 hp they got it, but it takes 454 cubes of small block (again suggest by others) and that is a 10k motor.

here's your 383 with an easy 600 hp, but its blow thru carb.......

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...est/index.html That combo ain't cheap......right arount 10k....

So when I suggest you do homework, I mean do some digging. Put down the Summit and Jegs rags. See what other guys have done to build a similiar engine and what I think you will find is that its a tough nut to crack if you stick to your current parameters.

Chris

[bubba428]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

When you suggest to use GM fast burn heads on a 383 to make 600 hp, that is not doing homework. When you then mention you can get them for 675 in summit that is a clear indication that you do not have the means to support your desires. Not taking shots at you, just making an observation.

Here is something I found real quick, I don't know these guys or anything just for some quick numbers:

http://www.cmengines.com/Engines/Str...5/Default.aspx

Notice the 383 is not offered above 500 hp.

Notice the 434 is used beyond that point, because the cubes make it easier to make the power. This was suggested by others. The 434 comes with a "new" block, meaning aftermarket, this was suggested by others. And you are still short of 600hp and that is at 11 to 1.....the ragged edge of pump gas for a carbed engine, again mentioned previously in this thread.

http://www.rocketindustries.com.au/s...es&brand=World

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ine/index.html

These guys bypass the 383 altogether and if you want 600 hp they got it, but it takes 454 cubes of small block (again suggest by others) and that is a 10k motor.

here's your 383 with an easy 600 hp, but its blow thru carb.......

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...est/index.html That combo ain't cheap......right arount 10k....

So when I suggest you do homework, I mean do some digging. Put down the Summit and Jegs rags. See what other guys have done to build a similiar engine and what I think you will find is that its a tough nut to crack if you stick to your current parameters.

Chris

so what your saying is asking around on here as a start doesn't count as research. I said that they where possibly better, being as you said to look at the flow numbers.

[SteveR]

Asking around is a good start. It might keep you from making some mistakes. The first thing to do is stop looking at the catalogs. That Eagle rotating assembly MIGHT last up to 450hp before it explodes. Those heads wont do it. Dont look at cams based on what numbers you THINK might be good. Ask bracket racers what they use. Talk to guys that have been building these motors for a while. If you want the motor to be done right, everything that goes into it must be complimentary to one another. intake to your heads to your rpm band to your bore x stroke to your CR to your vehicle weight to your rear. Randomly slapping it together will equal a car that wont run its number, if at all, and definitely inconsistently. And thats if it doesnt blow up. Putting together a 600hp small block isnt cheap, and the example 1QWIKBIRD had is really good;

"There is a sign on the wall in a friends shop and it reads something to this effect:

Pick any two of the following three things:
1. Fast Car
2. Cheap Price
3. Good Work

Because

A fast car with good work don't come cheap.

A fast car at a cheap price won't stay together long

A car with good work and cheap price isn't fast."

[unstable bob gable]

Originally Posted by bubba428

how many times do I have to repeat myself?

"One MILLION times!"

[unstable bob gable]

I'd consider doing a big block if you were starting from scratch. They ain't a bad fit in a 3rd gen, and a 600 HP big block can be made w/o having to work it all that hard. Plus you get that big block TORK!!!

[bubba428]

ok...Well with the dart pro 1 platinum heads with the next size smaller valves than the ones I wanted wanted Superchevy had a 383 make 512hp@5500 rpm. http://www.superchevy.com/technical/.../photo_18.html
found the article online
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...t_results.html

thats with a single plane intake and an of the shelf carb. I think 383s are more than easily capable of what I want. I think its more a matter of Its easier to build a high number motor with more cubes, and with the ability to get big block cubes in a small block package just seals the deal really.

[BonzoHansen]

Here you go, $15k. Now add another $10k-$15k to get everything caught up.

Originally Posted by MastMotorsports

We just finished calibrating our LS3 427ci crate engine and were able to make a power pull on the dyno. This is a LS3 based package that we are now offering for $14,999. It is available from Scoggin-Dickey Parts Center and will be displayed in their booth at the upcoming PRI Show in Orlando, FL. This package was designed to be daily driven and still make big power on either 87 or 93 octane fuel for when it goes to the track. It comes fully controlled and calibrated with our M-90 ECM and wiring harness. It is a COMPLETE ready to run package from intake to oil pan and should be a big hit with the conversion and swap guys as well as those who are looking to run a programmable stand alone ECM. Dyno data is shown below.

Components:
Complete Blueprinted 427ci LS3
11:1 Compression Ratio
4.070” Bore Diamond Pistons
4.100” Stroke Callies Crank w/ACL Bearings
6.125” Compstar Rods w/ACL Bearings
GMPP LS3/L92 CNC Cylinder Heads
Cometic Head Gaskets
ARP Head Bolts
ARP Main Studs
Mast Motorsports Spec. LS3/LS7 Camshaft
Manley Pushrods
Upgraded Valvesprings
GMPP L76 Intake w/LS7 Injectors
90mm Drive-By-Wire Throttle
GM Drive-By-Wire Foot Pedal
Mast Motorsports 8 Layer Air Filter w/Integrated IAT Sensor
GM Smart Coils, Spark Plugs, and Spark Plug Wires
All Engine Sensors (Including Oil Temperature)
Water Pump
Oil Pan
Oil Filter
Starter
Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil

Electronics:
M-90 ECM with Diagnostic Software (Calibration Software Available)
ECM Communication Cable
Engine Wiring Harness
Dash Control Harness
MAP/IAT Harness
Transmission Harness for GM VSS
Bosch Narrow Band O2 Sensor (NTK Wideband O2 available for an additional $299)
O2 Sensor Harness
Fuel Pump Control Harness
Electric Fan Control Harness
Mast Motorsports Integrated Fuse Block

Capabilities:
Drive-By Wire Throttle
Wideband Knock Control
Adaptive Spark Control
Closed Loop Fuel Pressure Correction
Throttle Based 2-Step Rev Limiter
Push Button Fast Idle Option
Integrated Gauge Drivers
CAN Gauge Capabilities
Fully Integrated Fuel Pump Control
Fully Integrated Electric Fan Control
Vintage Air A/C Control



Shaun
www.mastmotorsports.com

My intial estimates might prove low....

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I'm gonna guess $15k-$25k (or more) to do it right (suspension, trans, etc.).

[SteveR]

Whats important about that article is that there is NO information as to what is in that motor. They could be using a $10k short block for all we know. Start building the motor in your head and research each part as you go along. Start with where the build starts, the block. Find that then move to the crank (manufacturer you want, not the actual crank), then rods, pistons, establish your CR, figure out your vehicles final weight minus engine +driver, what trans you want, how you want it to launch, where your shift points will be, where in the rpm band you want it to sit, then you can start focusing in on the specifics. Cam specs, rod length, bore, stroke, intake, flow numbers, etc. Think about the cam and heads later. Start with the basics.

[NJSPEEDER]

bubba, don't worry about what you combo is yet. you have an idea and a goal, that is a good start. the next step is to look into getting the money together and working on a budget for your goal.
look at what parts capable of supporting your goal cost and come up with a ball park figure of how much you need. once you know the amount you need and how long it will take you to raise it, you can start planning the combo more specifically and worry about which actual part numbers you are going to want to buy.
600hp on pump gas is doable, but it is going to cost. so take your time planning and make sure you get all the right parts and have the right approach going in. you don't want to have to buy a whole bunch of expensive stuff multiple times because you weren't prepared going into the situation.

[unstable bob gable]

http://www.theengineshop.com/prods_pages/108052.htm

Nice and easy 600+ hp...

[SteveR]

Another thing to keep in mind is that 600hp on a n/a small block is pushing the limits using pump gas and no power adder and keeping it under a ridiculous number cost wise. The very loose general rule is 2hp per cubic inch on a big block n/a all out race motor. Thats pushing the limits. NHRA Pro Stock motors are 500ci and make about 1300hp, but I don't think a $150,000 motor is in any of our budgets. Small block motors are a lot harder, and are roughly 1.6hp per CI. Thats 612hp on a 383, so its doable, but that'll cost you a lot.

[bubba428]

Originally Posted by ;396176

Our 383 T&L test engine, equipped with a Comp Cams single pattern 288 Xtreme Energy flat-tappet hydraulic cam and an Edelbrock Performer Air Gap intake

thats from page 3. that cam is a custom grind that can be orderer through comp over the phone, and that Intake is a run of the mill dual plane. thats for you steve, and as far as the short block.4K Found T&Ls site from the article. http://www.tandlengines.com/chevy_sm...nchor-38-52725

And NJSPEEDER, I plan on taking a VERY long hard look into every part. I'm definitely not just gonna slap it together and hope. I want to run 11:1 compression so I need to figure out what pistons to use. I really like the fact that they're motor made 500hp in a reasonable RPM range. although I'm going to use the SBC beehive springs for it to boost up my RPM range before float. But I'll say it again I'M NOT STARTING ANYTHING UNTILL NEXT WINTER!!!

[bubba428]

The block i decide to use is going to be gone over VERY VERY care fully. I'm actually going to take it to the same guy that does engine work for some body I know. And he runs his car in the 8.50 bracket all year. It even held up to 3 nitrous backfires. (BTW this is a full built 68 camaro)

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

bubba, don't worry about what you combo is yet. you have an idea and a goal, that is a good start. the next step is to look into getting the money together and working on a budget for your goal.
look at what parts capable of supporting your goal cost and come up with a ball park figure of how much you need. once you know the amount you need and how long it will take you to raise it, you can start planning the combo more specifically and worry about which actual part numbers you are going to want to buy.
600hp on pump gas is doable, but it is going to cost. so take your time planning and make sure you get all the right parts and have the right approach going in. you don't want to have to buy a whole bunch of expensive stuff multiple times because you weren't prepared going into the situation.

^^^^best advice yet. Figure out your allowable budget, then start making your moves. Best of luck to ya. Should be one helluva motor when you get completed.

Chris

[bubba428]

Originally Posted by bubba428

I'M NOT STARTING ANYTHING UNTILL NEXT WINTER!!!

[unstable bob gable]

Originally Posted by bubba428

I'M NOT STARTING ANYTHING UNTILL NEXT WINTER!!!

So, when ya planning on getting started on this puppy?

[SteveR]

[bubba428]

Originally Posted by unstable bob gable

So, when ya planning on getting started on this puppy?

As soon as my pocket gets full enough

[unstable bob gable]

Originally Posted by bubba428

As soon as my pocket gets full enough

I have some rocks and dirt you can use to fill yer pockets...

[bubba428]

AWESOME...maybe I should just sell crack

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by bubba428

thats from page 3. that cam is a custom grind that can be orderer through comp over the phone, and that Intake is a run of the mill dual plane. thats for you steve, and as far as the short block.4K Found T&Ls site from the article. http://www.tandlengines.com/chevy_sm...nchor-38-52725

And NJSPEEDER, I plan on taking a VERY long hard look into every part. I'm definitely not just gonna slap it together and hope. I want to run 11:1 compression so I need to figure out what pistons to use. I really like the fact that they're motor made 500hp in a reasonable RPM range. although I'm going to use the SBC beehive springs for it to boost up my RPM range before float. But I'll say it again I'M NOT STARTING ANYTHING UNTILL NEXT WINTER!!!

Maybe I am sounding too harsh. If so I am sorry. All I am really trying to impart to you is that 500hp 383's are everywhere and I think they are on sale at Wal-Mart right now. 600hp 383's are much tougher to find, espicially NA and on pump gas. I realize its only another 100 hp, but the horsepower to money relationship is exponential. As you continue on your quest you will undoubtedly uncover the numerous hidden costs on such a motor. There can be no second rate parts. I doubt you will find beehive valve springs, dual plane air gap intakes, flat tappet cams (hyd. or mech.) or the like in the final recipe.

I would expect to see a forged bottom end inside a studded 4-bolt block with a good set of aftermarket rods, top notch machine work, a full roller valvetrain (likely to be solid roller) double springs with Ti retainers, possibly an entry level shaft mount rocker setup, heads that flow 300 cfm with single plane intake to match. I wouldn't dare guess as to the cam specs??? Holley HP series carb 850cfm(max power??) 750cfm (better street manners???), MSD lighting the fire. 1-7/8ths primary headers to a 3-1/2 collector for starters??? Lots of attention paid to the combustion chamber size, piston type, quench area to control detonation. That's my guess.

I look forward to next winter and the completion of your project, because when you get this beast together I'd be very interested in the final results. If you can pull this off without breaking the bank I think you'd have a lot of people's attention, including mine.


Chris

[Mike]

if your not starting till next winter, and dont like anyones advice because you know everything, why did you ask?

[unstable bob gable]

Originally Posted by bubba428

AWESOME...maybe I should just sell crack

I'd buy some from ya...