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Old 03-27-2020, 01:07 PM   #76
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Why not drill and tap the manifold for a 3/8" (Or #6 AN if you want to be fancy) fitting? You'll get the correct flow without the hose shenanigans.

Also: What's your initial (idle) timing? That will change your idle vacuum.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:19 PM   #77
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I had read that people have drilled and tapped the intake manifold. At this point in almost April I have no desire to pull the intake manifold off of a brand spanking new engine and drill and tap it. Not looking for any more “big” projects I understand what you are saying but I’m not trying to open up any can-of-worms type scenarios at this point. Just hoping to drive and enjoy the car and do little projects along the way

Initial timing is 17 deg. The tuner I am using sent me the revised base tune and I hope to load it and test drive the car tonight. I mentioned the vacuum to him and he said it will change as he makes tuning changes
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Old 03-31-2020, 10:37 PM   #78
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If it helps, I can post the cam specs/cam card again, but I know there is a photo of it on page 1 of this thread.

- as for vac, I checked it again today. I checked it directly at the 3/8" vac port at the back of the sniper and the PCV line was plugged. gauge shows still right around 8.5", mayyyybe 9" of vac. needle bounces a slight bit.. it is a steady rhythmic bounce, not erratic or jumpy , but a steady pulsing bounce.. I have sprayed starting fluid all around the intake, hoses, sniper etc and have noticed ZERO signs/symptoms of any vacuum leaks.



I was doing some thinking last night and as much as I really really hate the idea of extra items/hoses/etc in the engine bay, I might start looking into the catch can OR remote breather setup. mayyybe. I've so far learned that a catch can is different than a remote breather tank and thats different than an evac system and thats different from a vac pump setup. Reason being, mostly, I am slightly uncomfortable with sucking the crankcase vapors back into the intake and "dirtying" the intake/valves up on a brand new engine. Its unsettling, but I know it is common and used by manufacturers globally. Would feel more comfortable in the long run if I kept the intake as clean as possible, especially with everything so new and fresh.
---So, hillariously, just as I have finally seemed to find a PCV/hose setup that appears to work great, I might start thinking about re-vamping my system. !! jeez !

Some research I did shows that 8.5-9" of vacuum is on the lower end of a street setup, but is not drastically too low. My brakes work just fine and PCV valve seems to be doing its job just fine also
---- Today I took out the one breather I have (pass side valve cover) and held a paper towel to the opening at the valve cover and it is being slightly pulled into the valve cover. Used my hand there too and it is sucking my skin in. this is good. this means I have vacuum there. right? right. next, while doing this same process, I took out the PCV valve and plugged its hole/opening with my other hand, which pretty much immediately resulted in NO more suction at the valve cover hole where the breather usually is, and it began emitting a pressurized "smoke" vapor. After a few seconds of this test, I uncapped and reinserted the PCV valve and right away the passenger valve cover opening stopped smoking and began having suction again. good? yes? To me, this is all great and is the way it is supposed to be functioning right? I think it is, but perhaps hearing it from someone more experienced will ease my concern. If this is good, I'll keep it like this while I do research and possibly decide about catch can or breather tanks, maybe


Finalized the TCC lockup. followed the advice above and simply grounded the tan wire to the nearby subframe. took the car for a ride. I can flip my toggle switch (which is my OEM fog-light dashboard switch) and I can lockup the converter in 2nd, in 3rd, and in 4th gear. awesome. a press of the brake pedal also unlocks it as it is supposed to do. I was happy to get this working. It will be nice to lock it and bring the rpm's down when cruising on the highway.

The tuner will be working on my next revised tune tomorrow and hopefully Thursday or Friday I will have it sent to me so I can do some testing/datalogging/etc. I am doing my best to view this logs and Global Config Files (*tunes) on the holley sniper software. some of it makes sense to me and I think it is really cool to see all this data, but most of this stuff is still over my head (for now) .


all in all, the car is doing good. unfortunately with the global pandemic and COVID-19 pandemic, all autocross events, car shows, drag strips, test and tune days are shut down..... so, I am really just slowly getting the car "sorted out" on the street locally and safely.
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Old 04-01-2020, 07:46 AM   #79
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If you have a working PCV system, then you are pulling dirty fumes into the engine.

Running a quality catch can inline will help lower the amount of gunk getting pulled back into the intake stream.
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Old 04-01-2020, 07:59 AM   #80
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Yup. Exactly.
But for me, it’s a tough decision because I am very much concerned with under hood appearances and Simple, clean, streamlined layout. Finding a place to locate the actual can and routing the hoses neatly is Mostly what’s holding me back. Maybe I can find one with some -8 or - 10 AN fittings and braided hoses. If I didn’t care about appearances I would have already pulled the trigger and had one installed, but experimenting (successfully so far) with the PCV setup was my first plan and it’s nice to know that it does the job, but the “dirty air vapor” remains a concern
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Old 04-14-2020, 11:20 PM   #81
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minor update:

I have been working with the tuner and we are now onto tune revision 3 of about 6or7 initial tune revisions. the way he does it, is the first several tunes focus on the cold starts, idle, part throttle, low rpm, and hot re-start parameters of the tune. Then, after about tune 3, if he likes what he sees, he starts to work on the higher rpm and WOT areas. We are also discussing the PVC/catch can/breather tank situation and we hope to get the engine vacuum up to about 10 inches.

Had the car out today for a short session and I have almost put 500 miles on the new engine. Engine builder told me I would be fine waiting to do the first oil change at 1,000 miles, but since I have time off from work (and my curiosity is elevated) I just might do the oil/filter change soon, to make sure all looks good inside the oil system. Today I picked up 6 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20-50 and ordered the recommended filter Napa ProSelect 21060 oil filter.




I stopped by Larry's Shop last week and he and Chris gave the car a look over and helped point out some things I should adjust/keep in mind. We discussed catch cans also, as well as tuning, and how difficult it would be for me to retrofit any type of functional "knock sensor" to the engine. He also let me borrow his fender-roller and I used it to slightly bend the rear fender lips on both sides. I did not go too far with the metal reshaping, but it certainly better than before, where I had scuffed the current tires a few times in the past.











I also decided that I had enough of trying to make the oem power steering pump, tank, bracket, and pulley look like it belonged with the all new engine and engine bay. I sold some more autoparts online and used that money to buy a new power steering pump, tank, pulley, and brackets. The old oem pump I tried to cleanup and paint during the winter was "ok" looking, but it looked really out of place on the new engine, and I didn't like how high up it sat with the chunky steel bracket. The new pump sits lower, has a metal tank, aluminum pulley, and does not have 175,580 miles on it like my oem one does. I did run into a snag when I realized that the high pressure fitting in the tanks was different. I tried to source out a proper hose locally, and was almost about to go have a hose made, but I spoke with PolarBear who suggested that I swap the fitting from the old tank onto the new tank. After some hesitation, I did this, and everything worked and connected properly. Took the car for a road test today and the new pump along with the newly rebuilt (February 2020) box, new cooler line, etc feels great. Steering system is just great overall. I took these photos yesterday, however today I went and got a 1" shorter v-belt, so the pump tank sits more vertical compared to how it is leaning over a bit too much for my taste in the below photos.
























might decide to swap out the water pump pulley and the crank pulley to be aluminum next. might just keep them as is for now. will have to measure sizes and see what my options are. I looked around very quickly, and did not find a crank/water pump pulley combination that has v groove (for PS pump) and ribbed style (for alternator), in matching aluminum
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Old 04-15-2020, 05:57 AM   #82
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Preventative maintenance looks good
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Old 04-20-2020, 08:31 PM   #83
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A tip on the Knock sensor, TPI cars had them on the RH side by the engine mount. (ACDELCO 21396 ) While it is a possibility, you would need to know the sensor's specifics and also that your block is similar if not exactly in metallurgy. Also, you would need to cross that info into your ECU. As discussed, if you are going to guess on something that one would rely upon its data, might as well guess w/o it.

PS - pump looks good. If you can live with the other pulleys, I'd leave them until you do a serp conversion. While it would have bling, you could score a TPI non AC set up cheap. BIllet specialties has nice stuff if you want to burn some $

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Old 04-20-2020, 10:49 PM   #84
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cool, thanks Larry, yup, as you educated me in person about the knock sensor, I then kinda took that idea of having one, and after learning about what you said, decided I won't be diving into that territory. you had some super well formed factual info about the knock sensor, and I trust your expertise in this field, for sure. I don't feel like guessing on experimenting with any knock sensor combination and then being wrong and having to deal with the unintended consequences of false knock, or it not detecting knock. However, When I sent my last set of GCF tune files to my tuner he informed me that he is not seeing any detonation in the logs. In my reply (which I typed up last night) I asked him what I could/should look for in my datalogs that would be an indication of detonation/knock. When he replies and answers my question, hopefully it will be a way that I can continually look at my datalogs and then be able to observe if I am knocking or about to be.

Yea, I am happy that I did the PS pump. It was unsightly, and my eye was drawn to it every time I opened the hood. I think I will be holding off on any other pulleys for the current year. perhaps winter I will make a conversion. I am happy this setup is working great and the new PS pulley, bracket, tank, pump looks good too. So, this is the configuration I will stick with. I did toy around with the idea of a Gm type 2 pump with smaller tank which you mentioned to me. I decided to stay "true" to the gen 1 SBC engine theme and went with this one, also because I didnt have to redo any fluid lines.



Sent the tuner my "tune 4" datalogs and "learned GCF 4" last night. Some small adjustments to the IAC and the hot restart were made to tune 3 file. The cold start is now getting really good and the engine will usually fire up quickly with out any need to work the throttle at all. He is still adjusting VE and AE in a few parameters on various tables. My hot idle is set for 872 rpm.
- we started the full throttle tuning too. starting with 32-34 deg advance throughout WOT. I am assuming we will be bringing this number up higher somewhere close to the 37-38 range? Pat (engine builder) had me setting the total advance timing at 38 deg when I had the mechanical distributor weights/springs controlling the timing. I am curious now though, with the holley ecu controlling timing, will it still be in the 38 deg range, or will it be completely different timing numbers with ecu timing control? should I get that 38 number out of my head and just have the tuner read the logs and adjust timing according to data, even if it results in WOT timing advance in the 35 deg range?

- he mentioned a cool little useful trick to calculate horsepower from "fuel flow data". It gives you an approximate HP number if you double the fuel flow nmber.... So, on one of my WOT datalogs, my max fuel flow was 266.6 lbs/hr. So if I double that fuel flow number, my horsepower would be 533.2 hp ? (which is very close to the 531 hp shown on the engine dyno sheet!) and this flow number was at 6120 rpm, (also close to dyno sheet, see page 1 of thread) and this happened with 33.9 deg advance ignition timing at that point in the log. Seems cool if it is somewhat accurate. There is also a similar trick to calculate torque numbers using the VE table. This all was new to me, and I want to check it again as time goes on, especially if we bring in more WOT timing and if my fuel flow numbers go upwards.


Just saturday I hit the 500 mile mark with the new engine. I was told I could go to 1,000 miles before the first oil change by Pat, but curiosity got the best of me and I will be doing an oil and filter change tomorrow. I have an oil filter cutter too, so I will open up the filter and examine it.

-- Aside from the very obvious stuff, should I be checking for anything else on, in, around the engine while I am under there, now that it is broken in after 500 miles?. typical bolt check, zip-tie tightening, etc? I might shim the starter since every now and then I hear it "clang" when/if the engine didnt fire off. This was more noticeable weeks ago when the engine was slow to turn over before the cold start and hot start tune was dialed in. Regardless, I might put a shim under the starter and remeasure the flexplate teeth engagement. Other than that, I'm just enjoying driving it.
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Old 04-21-2020, 09:08 AM   #85
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You should walk up to max timing based on what plugs say not what the tuner, or engine builder claim.

As far as knock sensors go, I came close to seeing if I could get twin dry sensors installed since my harness has the plug. But decided that it may prove to be more diffucult that worth. The HP forum has a good write up
https://forums.holley.com/showthread...ors-Holley-EFI
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Old 04-21-2020, 10:01 PM   #86
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Matt, ah, cool thanks for that link. in recent months I have been browsing a lot on the Holley tech support forums but I have not come across that page. Some complicated stuff there that I will really have to dig through, but in the end, my gut is telling me I may not have luck with knock sensor(s) on this setup. I have seen a TON of posts by that super-tech guy Danny Cabral and he sure knows his stuff. He seems to answer everyones questions accurately every time.
-- good point about reading the plugs. that is wise indeed. It will be difficult to do this while street tuning (since all tracks are closed), but maybe I can find a way to do a full throttle rip and then shut it down to check plug markings in a safe spot.


Did the oil change today. 512 miles on the new engine. Oil came out dark and there was only a very small amount of metal "sludge" on the magnetic drain plug. I wiped this onto a clean paper towel:






I cut open the filter and found no metal, but on the inside of some of the pleats I found some trace amounts crusty crumbly black buildup. what would that be?












installed a 1/32" spacer shim between the ministarter and the dart SHP block. unplugged the ignition coil and cranked the engine over a few times. no grinding or clanging noise at the flexplate. that should be it for that then.



haven't had much time recently to browse around for catch-can options. Talkign with Larry, a small fat one might fit on the firewall behind the brake booster, and above the C100 wiring bulkhead, but aside from that area, there really isn't a space under the hood that I am thrilled about bolting a catch can to, let alone running hoses to/from. Does it have to be at the same height as a valve cover, or can it be mounted low and out of the way since it is a sealed system? anyone have any other interesting ideas on where to mount one under my hood which is arranged this way:

(keep in mind that underhood appearances are important to me)







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Old 04-22-2020, 07:12 AM   #87
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Your engine bay is wayyy too nice for a catch can.

Why not run lines from the valve covers to the exhaust? Let the exhaust pull some vacuum. Or was this already discussed?
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Old 04-22-2020, 07:12 AM   #88
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Can should be higher. Vapor travels up. The downward path could cause an air pocket. Might be stretching it there.

Monitor the black crud. Keep on trucking. First couple oil changes will have 'stuff'. You have minimal 'stuff'. Good.

Knocks - Need to read through that post more for greater details. However, the 90 deg brass fitting is something GM did in 1980 with the 301 turbo cars. While it did work, it was a very crude/ basic system. Att his point, I'm not sold on retrofitting knocks for a variety of metallurgy & engineering fundamentals reasons above most people's understandings. As I dig more into them, I might change my thinking. As of now, it's still a best guess output.
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Old 04-22-2020, 02:41 PM   #89
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a black catch can would not be terrible. Looks race car
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Old 04-22-2020, 04:31 PM   #90
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Maybe tuck it high and left of the msd box, won’t look out of place. Or maybe behind either pair of headlights if high enough...
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Old 04-22-2020, 06:57 PM   #91
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Knocks - Need to read through that post more for greater details. However, the 90 deg brass fitting is something GM did in 1980 with the 301 turbo cars. While it did work, it was a very crude/ basic system. Att his point, I'm not sold on retrofitting knocks for a variety of metallurgy & engineering fundamentals reasons above most people's understandings. As I dig more into them, I might change my thinking. As of now, it's still a best guess output.
OK, I'll bite. Care to elaborate? Are you referring to the metallurgy of the metal that his SBC is made of vs a late model engine?
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:33 PM   #92
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Prewording - by no means am I proclaiming to be an expert in this field or advising fully what's required or involved. Instead, I am relaying information I have been informed, researched, & studied (to some degree). The topic is open for discussion for those who also have input in this area.

"Are you referring to the metallurgy of the metal that his SBC is made of vs a late model engine"
In part, yes. There are other areas also.

There is the metallurgy component(s) (Casting porosity, material composition (i.e. amount of X compound) , thickness, density, ect)

From there, there is the bore spacing. Siamese or individual cylinders.

Frequencies, Vibrations and Harmonics. Every object has them. Based on the above, you need to find the values/ properties of those naturally occuring. A good bit of Differential Equations. While it has been a little since I studied this area,

Next step is to find locations and find what values are of all components at those points. This sets a baseline for the sensor output.

Once that is known, you get into the dynamic component. This is where one looks to determine at what vibration level 'knock' truly occurs. Also, the various frequencies & vibrations different combinations. This is why it is necessary to adjust knock sensitivity on some modified engines.


I looked into this topic a few years back for personal Pontiac 24x conversion project. Including sitting down with an GM / Dephi engineer and going over the idea. Based on info received and some research, I paused and decided not to dig deeper to the finer details as for the intended project mainly based on what all it would take to find out what 'knock' valves would be. Yes, one could figure it out. But I would want to have imperial data throughout and not make assumptions.

Using the guess & check method
We could put a given sensor in a block. At what point would we base 'knock' values. One could evaluate a handful of factory designed applications and record data. Then take sensors for respected blocks and insert into other known blocks and record data. Then compare. Perhaps at this point, one could take tested sensors and place into experimental block and see how that data compares.

It would be an interesting experiment I'd be up dig into

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Old 04-23-2020, 07:33 AM   #93
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I think what is being missed is knock sensors are not precision instruments. They should be used as a safety net only.

The logic you're using is missing all of the deviations that occur between two identical factory motors. No two engines will ever be exactly the same yet the OEM uses the same sensor and tune.
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Old 04-24-2020, 07:59 PM   #94
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cool, feel free to continue the knock sensor conversation if you guys feel like it. it is interesting to learn, so type away at will.


-still on the fence about catch can, decision to be made one day later on. I did think about those style evac tubes that plumb into the exhaust and use scavenging exhaust pulses to pull crankcase vapors away. I had read somewhere that for a street car that sees several thousand miles a year, it would not be a wise decision. I know drag racer guys have luck with them, but unsure about street car aspect of it. good to think about though! thanks




Forgot to post this the other day, but the tuner I am using (Mad Science Motorsports) did a short feature on his facebook, nothing crazy, but pretty cool:

https://www.facebook.com/MadScienceMotorsportsAZ/

also here is his instagram (which I cant view without a huge pop-up blocking the whole screen since I dont have instagram)
https://www.instagram.com/mad_science_motorsports/
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Old 04-27-2020, 10:32 AM   #95
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Why not place a vent tank mirror'd of the current tank pax side?

Make it chrome and have lines run from the front of the VC to it.
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Old 04-27-2020, 09:58 PM   #96
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So, I actually thought of that with my one neighbor who is a hot-rodder. he said, buy a smiliar tank and apparently you can put steel wool or something in there to collect oil vapor and have it drip down to the bottom of the tank, but also there are no baffles in the tank? . The only thing stopping me from doing that is I am not sure if I want that whole drivers side front-corner area to be used for a possibly secondary fuel tank unit. Even with the 340 pump and wiring upgrade, some people have suggested it might be better off to have a secondary fuel tank/pump just for the nitrous system.

I've seen some nice units from various companies, and space would be very tight there. Of course I could always then re-locate the catch can at this point again, but it is an option. right now, that whole are is open and empty. good observation, and thanks for the suggestion.. it is a good one indeed. I would try to be as creative as possible routing the hoses, because I liek how there are very minimal hoses/wires/items coming off the front and sides of the engine. it is the center focal point, and more hoses around/across it would be a bit"unsightly" to me, but when the nitrous system gets installed, I will have to accept its required plumbing and components.

so yea, but perhaps instead of running the hose to/from the front of the valve cover on the drivers side, i run it from the rear of the valve cover, around/over/under the brake booster, and along the side of the inner fender where I have the plastic wire loom covering the elctric wires. then it would be somewhat "symmetrical" to the pass side. the tank I have on the pass side does look nice, fit well, and has many configurations for ports/hoses/plugs. so its a possibility. BUT, would a run of hose that long be problematic? it would be about 5-6 feet from valve cover to catch can, and then 5 or 6 feet back to the engine and into the sniper. too long? it would be about the same level/height to avoid dips and pockets.
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Last edited by IROCZman15; 04-27-2020 at 10:04 PM.
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