taliban behind the mask

[91chevywt]

Whether you support the war or not, the truth is Saddam Hussein committed atrocious crimes against his own people. Including murder, abduction, torture, rape of women, all in the name of ethnic cleansing. This was not hundreds of people. Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered, abducted, due to the sect of Islam they practiced. Saddam Hussein ranks among the most evil of dictators, including Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, etc.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by 91chevywt

Whether you support the war or not, the truth is Saddam Hussein committed atrocious crimes against his own people. Including murder, abduction, torture, rape of women, all in the name of ethnic cleansing. This was not hundreds of people. Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered, abducted, due to the sect of Islam they practiced. Saddam Hussein ranks among the most evil of dictators, including Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, etc.

Which is ironic cause the US of A installed him.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by 91chevywt

Whether you support the war or not, the truth is Saddam Hussein committed atrocious crimes against his own people. Including murder, abduction, torture, rape of women, all in the name of ethnic cleansing. This was not hundreds of people. Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered, abducted, due to the sect of Islam they practiced. Saddam Hussein ranks among the most evil of dictators, including Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong, etc.

Matt said it and guess where he got all those weapons?
Guess where he got the military might?
Guess who trained the Taliban and other Afganistan tribes?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If we were to invade EVERY single country that did that, we could set up shop in Africa.

I think that Wikileaks gave us a little window, and possible a clue into what was going on.

Wikileaks shows that most of the friendly Arab countries want us to dismantle Iran, and I think that you could say the same for Iraq.

What is the point of winning Afganistan? What is the point of me losing ANOTHER friend in that hell hole? Do we think that if we "win", that terrorisim will just stop? We took our eye off the ball. Russia had a death-grip over that country, pouring all thier resources into that country, and thanks to a little red white and blue, they walked out of that country, tail between legs.
My feelings on pulling out of both those places still stands as it did 4 years ago. The time to leave is now. We are not going after any sort of terrorists, and we sure as hell arent going to get them by sending another hundred thousand troops into that rocky ********.
But we have torn apart that country, as well as Iraq, and we cannot leave it crumbling, even if it was crumbling before we got there.
I dont pretend that in war, the civilians will be left unscathed, and when I hear that a few died here and there, it does not effect me and my outlook of the war.

We are stuck in these two places, forever. And the longer we are there, the more that we will not be welcome.

The Taliban is different than Al Qaeda, which is different than Iraq's former government.

Saddam was a terror, no doubt. But he had to control 3 warring factions of the Muslim faith, all trying to take claim to part of this sacred country.
I have a feeling that the Saudi's wanted the US to remove Saddam as they we were pissed about 9/11. No one wants a crazy man next store, and instead of launching a muslim war in the middle east, America would be more then happy to fight that war.

[JL8Jeff]

Obviously this is a very political issue so please try not to go overboard, but it really comes down to whether you would prefer to see us sit back on our asses and wait for the people that hate us to come over here and bring it to our front yard(which we are definitely not prepared to deal with) or we be a pro-active country and try to deal with it where it currently is happening. We all know we can't win every battle but I think most of us agree it's better to fight the enemy over there(wherever that is) vs have them show up here. It has nothing to do with who is the president or who has control of the congress or senate but the overall decision to not allow them to make it to our borders to fight us. So I don't understand how anyone who has family in the military could protest it either way. It's us against them and it will never go away. I salute those who chose to represent us in the military and back them 100%.

[BigAls87Z28]

No one here is making any sort of political comments.

If you think that launching an unprevoked invasion into every country to find terrorists is the right idea, then we in fact become the terrorists, and that only INCREASES the anger that the radicals have towards us.
The further and deeper the west invades muslim lands, the further down the rabbit hole we go.
Invading country after country is NOT the way to stop terror.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

The further and deeper the west invades muslim lands, the further down the rabbit hole we go.
Invading country after country is NOT the way to stop terror.

I agree to a point but do you really think the wacky Muslims who hate us are just going to say "wahooo the infidels are gone, now we can all live in peace"? Not a chance. They hate us based on our beliefs..PERIOD. Yes, we absolutely made our own mess too, the whole "the enemy of my enemy is now my friend" BS got us in some serious trouble, hell we're still doing it NOW over there. The fact is we, as a country, stick our noses in too much business but we're also looked at to police the world so it's a fine line. Anyway, I'm rambling, these people over there hate us based on religion, there is no overcoming that through rhetoric and diplomacy. Would I love to see some of my friends and family to come home? Abso-freakin-lutely....however would everything suddenly become honky dory if we just up and left? We did that once when that area was fighting Russia and look how that ended up biting us in the ass....why do it again?

EDIT: I'm not saying one way or the other if we should just pack up and leave or continue the fight....we're all playing armchair military generals here...there is no right answer. It's not as cut and dry as people think.

[Blacdout96]

There is a reason I don't read newspapers, except for local news, or watch television news, and the simple answer is, it's not news, it hasent been for 30 years, and it wont be for another 30 years.

IMO the biggest mistake was allowing media to even travel to that country, let alone tell everyone our every move in the war. It prevented us from being stealthier, as far as our movement, or next engagement goes, and to always talk about civilian casualties, it did paint us as being brutal, but so is war. With those two factors, we have to walk on egg shells, slowing down our advancement, and softening our tactics.
Take a look at Russia during WWII, they lost 40,000,000 civilians during the war, yet that seems to be a silent factor when talked about, you know why? cause Russia kept tight lips on something such as that. Same thing when we were advancing in the Pacific, or in the Black Woods. Media was kept to a minimum, as it should be. I feel the media is the new form of terrorists. If they really cared about our troops, and the American people, they will keep their ****ign nose out of everything.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

No one here is making any sort of political comments.

If you think that launching an unprevoked invasion into every country to find terrorists is the right idea, then we in fact become the terrorists, and that only INCREASES the anger that the radicals have towards us.
The further and deeper the west invades muslim lands, the further down the rabbit hole we go.
Invading country after country is NOT the way to stop terror.

If that keeps them from not attacking us on american soil then whats the problem? You are against us invading to get rid of terrorists yet you are against terror attacks in the US.. The way to stop the terror attacks is to attack them werever they are and to keep them moving and transfering money and not give them the time to get together a good plan and actually being able to pull it off.. They have tried to attack us but every time they have been caught since invading Iraq.. It seems they dont have the time to train there terrorist properly and they send them out not fully trainded and they **** up and get caught. Seems they are more focused on our troops then they are the people living in the US.. All this is due to them knowing that no matter where they go they are going to be hunted down and killed.. Its one thing that they can blow up a building but its another thing that they know that the most powerfull force in the world is not going to stop untill they are all dead.. If you dont agree with this then I dont know what to tell you... Would you rather us stay and kill them or us pullout and they kill us?

[Frosty]

Any time I hear the war and media coverage I think back to Geraldo Rivera and the scumbag that he is....drawing out attack plans in the sand and giving out locations.

[BigAls87Z28]

I don't believe in a full invasion of every country that has terrorists. Invading country after country will destroy us. Small elite squads can isolate and target these cells. I don't believe that as long as we are there they wont try to attack us. Its not a religious war either but I know lots of people would like to believe it is. I don't see muslims as angry blood thirsty people. We need to expand our special ops in a time like this. We can no longer afford to send hundreds of thousands of troops into every hole. Our military is still designed to fight the big one.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Its not a religious war either but I know lots of people would like to believe it is. I don't see muslims as angry blood thirsty people.

Most aren't, most are just like us aside from coming from a different culture. But the minority of that religion/culture are the ones making waves, the ones wanting to kill every non-Muslim. You can choose to bury your head in the sand and not believe that but religion is a driving force behind it. The Muslim community really needs to step up and silence and fight these extremists.

I honestly would love for us to become isolationists again like in the late 1800's/early 1900's but it's impossible. We've pissed away most of our manufacturing base and other key economic industries....plus it's really a global economy. Leave us alone and we'll leave you alone...mess with us and we'll obliterate you...but that's just a pipe dream.

[BigAls87Z28]

Impossible at this point. I don't see it as a religious war but a war of ideas. They see the west as an over indulgent bunch of sinners. We take everything and leave a.disaster in our wake. This is reinforced by us heading into wars and invading countries. We topple the government and then we fail at trying to force our ideas on people that don't want us there. We cannot get over the fact that in some parts of the work Democracy does not work.

[Frosty]

I agree with the democracy not working everywhere. That's why at times I think we should just stay the hell out of everyone's business. But Al, you can't sit there with a straight face that religion plays no part. You say it's a war of ideas....their entire ideology is based on religion. Right or wrong, good or bad that's how it is.

[LTb1ow]

Crusades round 6 and a half?


America should get on the whole self reliance part, ditch oil and go to full on isolation mode. F the rest of the world, don't like us fine, have fun dealing with the disaster of the human race. Oh you need aid cause you had a huge earthquake? Shucks, maybe next time don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Frosty]

We're too wrapped up in other economies and we rely on other economies, we're intertwined.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by Frosty

We're too wrapped up in other economies and we rely on other economies, we're intertwined.

Yea I know, we could take over mexico and canada though and then say peace to the rest of the world.. ..


And I think I am agreeing with you on something. Damnit!

[Frosty]

We usually see eye to eye on most political stuff you mook lol. It's Al you have your hissy fit with lol

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

There are way too many semi-coherent thoughts and complete sentences in this thread, this can't be NJFBOA.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by Anti_Rice_Guy

There are way too many semi-coherent thoughts and complete sentences in this thread, this can't be NJFBOA.

Finals are making me use my brain for once, tis lame I know, don't worry, regularly scheduled nonsense will return come Thursday afternoon.

[Blacdout96]

Originally Posted by LTs1ow

Yea I know, we could take over mexico and canada though and then say peace to the rest of the world.. ..

MMMM, canadian bacon tacos FTW. lol.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Most aren't, most are just like us aside from coming from a different culture. But the minority of that religion/culture are the ones making waves, the ones wanting to kill every non-Muslim. You can choose to bury your head in the sand and not believe that but religion is a driving force behind it. The Muslim community really needs to step up and silence and fight these extremists.

I honestly would love for us to become isolationists again like in the late 1800's/early 1900's but it's impossible. We've pissed away most of our manufacturing base and other key economic industries....plus it's really a global economy. Leave us alone and we'll leave you alone...mess with us and we'll obliterate you...but that's just a pipe dream.

I think a small percentage of terrorists are fighting because of our innability to convert to Islam, but IMO, if they were mainly set on attacking our religion, they would of bombed churches, synagoges ( probably spelled that wrong), but instead they attacked our Government and financial sectors ( Pentagon and WTC). Now maybe they are looking to swipe our legs out from under us before they attack our religious sectors, but wouldn't they of also attacked like the Vatican and what not by now?

As for the isolation from the world, I agree to a part, we lent too much our our dependancy to overseas manufacturing, which prevents us from giving the world the big one-finger salute when **** hits the fan, but also places like China, who hold 95% of the worlds precious metals that are used in things like microchips, missile and rocket navigation, etc, to lock them out we would fall behind.
Now as superior as we might become if we were to became isolated again, there would be a snag. We could become too isolated, and looking at how North Korea turned out, there would be a point where we would have to stay globally connected. I do feel our hand should stay out of most international problems, and our money should not be used in aid unless we the people donate it. Why? we give and give, and yet **** is still shoved in our faces from other countries.

We need to stop trading with China Period, or at least put a cap on manufacturing percentage over there. They are fueling North Korea, and what kind of sway do we have in words when we owe THEM Billions in debt, and more then 60% of our basic products here are produced there.
I will say if there is one thing to model after China is how they produce. They have the majority of raw material brought in from the country they are manufacturing for ( import profit) they produce it there and then ship it back out (manufacturing and export fee) We, on the other hand dig up our own raw material and ship them out. So we miss a key point for profit making, AND we waste our own raw material here for someone else.

Or we could shift our productions to Taiwan, a DEMOCRATIC country ( not Communist) and bring the jobs back here. I know alot of people out there could get a job, but they feel they are too good to do some manufacturing job, or wouldn't pay well, yet some pay is better then none. I think we are just plain lazy, and we have the idea, but no motivation to set things right.

We could do it if we wanted to America....but Dancing with the Stars is going to be on in 45 minutes, and I'll die If I don't get to see who is casted off, so bother me afterwards.

[Slow-V6]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

I don't believe in a full invasion of every country that has terrorists. Invading country after country will destroy us. Small elite squads can isolate and target these cells. I don't believe that as long as we are there they wont try to attack us. Its not a religious war either but I know lots of people would like to believe it is. I don't see muslims as angry blood thirsty people. We need to expand our special ops in a time like this. We can no longer afford to send hundreds of thousands of troops into every hole. Our military is still designed to fight the big one.

I am not saying to invade every country but the fact that we invaded Iraq probably has scared alot of other countries that are helping terrorists into thinking that we would invade their country as well. Now if I was the President or whatever of Turkey and I was helping out terrorists I would probably stop knowing that the US can and will invade us if they find out.

Maybe this war is the big one. Terrorist are everywere and we owe it to the families of the thousands that were lost on 9/11 and all the other terror attacks on our nation to find these groups and destroy them. You said before that us invading Iraq makes us look like terrorists. Even with all the Terror activities and Terror camps they have found and destroyed in Iraq you still say this? The terror groups say that we are terrorist for invading Afganastan and Iraq and that they are heros for attacking NYC and Washington.

I have been to Spain, Italy, France, Greece, England, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Slovakia, Austria, and Portugal as recent as 2005. They all had our backs and were Thankfull that our goverment is trying to get rid of the terrorists in the world. No one said that we are terrorists for invading Iraq but they were greatfull that we took a stand and that we also got rid of saddam. I havent been to Europe in 5yrs so I dont know what the feeling is over there but I still contact my buddies in the Navy that are over there and they say that everyone is still pretty nice to them and what not. Hell every bar we went to in most of those countries they bought us rounds of beer. Just because you see on CNN that the world is not behind us or what not doesnt mean that the Civilians in those countries are not greatfull. Thats what this war is about. Who cares what other Goverment officials say or allegedly say about us. If they dont have the balls to step up and help us when there own people want to fight with us then there is something wrong with them. I have been there in person talking with these people in bars and resturants. Not making my judgement based off of CNN or the News but off of actual people who see there countries as a easy target for these terrorists and there goverments not doing a thing about it..

[Anti_Rice_Guy]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

long china quote

China can't keep up what it's doing forever - it's causing inflation in its own country and making it so the average person there can buy less and less meanwhile enriching foreign citizens. Overspending in the US is helping keep the momentum of the vicious cycle going.

The way China keeps the Yuan devalued is by buying American dollars/bonds. We keep spending too much, thus printing more of them. What the Fed did recently with its quantitative easing was to try and cause a little inflation which would bring the value of the USD down slightly which when China owns trillions worth of USD, means a big hit. It's a matter of give and take.

1995-2005 China had fixed its Yuan - USD exchange rate by printing money and increasing its currency reserve to match the 1995 USD-Yuan level. It restricts the amount of foreign assets that locals can invest in.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Anti_Rice_Guy

China can't keep up what it's doing forever - it's causing inflation in its own country and making it so the average person there can buy less and less meanwhile enriching foreign citizens. Overspending in the US is helping keep the momentum of the vicious cycle going.

The way China keeps the Yuan devalued is by buying American dollars/bonds. We keep spending too much, thus printing more of them. What the Fed did recently with its quantitative easing was to try and cause a little inflation which would bring the value of the USD down slightly which when China owns trillions worth of USD, means a big hit. It's a matter of give and take.

1995-2005 China had fixed its Yuan - USD exchange rate by printing money and increasing its currency reserve to match the 1995 USD-Yuan level. It restricts the amount of foreign assets that locals can invest in.

Not to mention the wealth gap in China is massive. That pot is nearing a boil.

It's bad enough that they can steal money right out of people's mouths with their lack of policing knock-offs and IP theft.

[Blacdout96]

China is putting a hell of a fight right now to keep the yuan devaluated, which is making the rich richer there, and the poor starving. It will explode, and things will come unteathered, but When will ti happen? will this happen before America is forced into a hole it won't be able to dig out for generations to come?

Overspending is America's MO right now, and we don't know how to learn from it, except for the people on the streets without even a pot to piss in. When I shop, I shop anti-China. If I have to buy store brand, or spend more just to avoid China, I have no problem doing that. I also don't shop at Wal-Mart since they have major contracts with China. Rarely do I buy, unless it's something no one else has. I also have my wife help me pick out which brands are from Taiwan. I don't do it because she is from Taiwan, I do it because I support her country, and what they have to endure on a political, and national state from China, and yet have prevailed so well, while the daily threat from China looms over every day.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Frosty

We usually see eye to eye on most political stuff you mook lol. It's Al you have your hissy fit with lol

Matt likes to pick on me for fun. When you talk to him, he is very much like me, split down the middle. He says stuff that just gets on people's nerves. Hard to imagine...

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

MMMM, canadian bacon tacos FTW. lol.




I think a small percentage of terrorists are fighting because of our innability to convert to Islam, but IMO, if they were mainly set on attacking our religion, they would of bombed churches, synagoges ( probably spelled that wrong), but instead they attacked our Government and financial sectors ( Pentagon and WTC). Now maybe they are looking to swipe our legs out from under us before they attack our religious sectors, but wouldn't they of also attacked like the Vatican and what not by now?

They attacked our Ideas, what we stand for. They attack our way of life. if you want to make it about religion, then it would be materialisim. They also dont like us backing a small little country that we planted in the middle east either...

As for the isolation from the world, I agree to a part, we lent too much our our dependancy to overseas manufacturing, which prevents us from giving the world the big one-finger salute when **** hits the fan, but also places like China, who hold 95% of the worlds precious metals that are used in things like microchips, missile and rocket navigation, etc, to lock them out we would fall behind.

Its obvious that we cannot be isolated from the world, as we depend on it as much as it depends on us. We have become too important to ourselves, and why we left blue collar jobs behind for more money.
This country is in rough shape, and we have torn at the strongest pillars that have gotten this country through the toughest times.
Industry and Education are now on the bottom rung, as we pour nearly 1 trillion dollars into military spending EVERY year. For what? For putting a 1/4 million 18-25 year olds in harms way. Yes, they signed up for it, and they are there to protect us, but I dont see going into Iraq as protection. We had Iraq wrapped up, having total control over everything that goes in and out of that hell hole.
Surrounded by its enemies on 3 sides, and the UN flying and driving all over that sandbox, there was no way anything was getting done.