Getting my final plan together.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

This plan is getting big. You need to break it into smaller achievable plans.

Hey wayfast, what is your budget in time & expenses, meaning when do you need this done, and how much can you spend?

that is part of what matt and i are going to work out some time this coming week. the goals are big and broad currently and with matt being young and this being his first project the keys are to shoot for a result that is both attainable and maintainable.
it would be fruitless to have the end result be a car that has mood swings or inconsistant performance that ends up leaving him frusrated.
my thought for living with the bar was to put in swing outs. pull a couple pins or bolts out and it is jsut a 4pt sitting behind him. swing outs can be fabbed easily or if the finished look is prefered, purchased very cheap.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

my thought for living with the bar was to put in swing outs. pull a couple pins or bolts out and it is jsut a 4pt sitting behind him. swing outs can be fabbed easily or if the finished look is prefered, purchased very cheap.

Better, but still a pain IMO. The crossbar between the main hoop can't be removable and pass NHRA spec, so there go any rear seat passengers. If he does decide to do it anyway, he should at least go with the pro-street rear bar kit so can keep the back seat.

[NJSPEEDER]

i was looking at the helmet bar as more of a set up and leave out until required. NHRA rules only call for it if teh car is running a number that requires it. until the car is running the number, you can run all, part, or none of a cage and it is perfectly legal.
doing the install of the main hoop and roll bar early in the build, while doing interior clean up and such, also allows for the bar to be modded to legal with only a little bit of work vs having to tear the whole car apart again to do the whole thing.

[WayFast84]

Where all getting a little bit ahead of are selfs, it all started with a simple question. I know im on a tight budget, but thats simply for the motor, and Im going to trust hardline42. if somethings wrong with the motor ill have no choice to pull it back out on a later time and get it rebuilt later..

My biggest isue besides the motor is trans, I dont know if i should use the th350 because it will be able to last longer, or just get a later 700r4 and have that built.. Im really pissed, I hate being taken advantage of, and getting a nother rebuilt 700r4 is going to set me way back..

[BonzoHansen]

I think Chris hit the nail on the head...

To me, tight budget = run what ya brung. Keep the 700 until it grenades.

[NJSPEEDER]

that is a reasonable combination and would certainly be able to put your car into the mid 12's with a little bit of chassis prep. the extra 50 cubic inches you are carrying woudl also make a good amount more torque, so if you hook it the car will get off the line very nicely.
teh only part of it that bothers me is that it says "$1250 of head work" without saying what kind of work is into the heads. for that kind of money it would be worth jstu buying some aftermarket aluminum heads.

[BonzoHansen]

Wayfast, do you expect to pass emissions testing?

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

I was thinking that too, but the heads i might be using would have around $1000 of head work, $800 of what ever JZ put into them then the money for steamholes and back cut IIRC

edit
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/te...ight=882+heads

this thread has got me worried, Maybe I should just man up. two possibilties are my 416's or regular vortec heads, or just go for new heads. i mean 500 for vortecs +200 on intake=700 Im sure I can get some good performance heads used for that price.. Maybe im just worring to much

Matt,

Focus....

you are going down the slippery slope to no where land again

...remember your $1000 budget.....stick to it.

You are not going to get kick ass heads and the entire top half of a motor for $1000, unless you are buying someone elses worn out junk.

If the offer stands from JZJZ for those 882's that were gone through find out how much he wants, it sounds like he's gonna make you a pretty fair deal, make the deal and move on....Your budget won't allow for anymore than that....

Focus.....

Chris

[WayFast84]

I know my budget is tight, but from the research it doesnt look like I can do much home porting to make the heads even close to flowing like vortecs.
If I can get a carb or for real cheap, I can step up to the pace performance vortecs. I know none of you guys would intentionally steer me wrong im kinda worried, theirs no way ill be able to get 11's n/a with 882 heads, probably not even vortec heads.
/thread

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

I know my budget is tight, but from the research it doesnt look like I can do much home porting to make the heads even close to flowing like vortecs.
If I can get a carb or for real cheap, I can step up to the pace performance vortecs. I know none of you guys would intentionally steer me wrong im kinda worried, theirs no way ill be able to get 11's n/a with 882 heads, probably not even vortec heads.
/thread

Being very young and not have done anything that worked in a car before you should lower your sights a bit, 11s is out of the question in todays world and going back and forth to school and out at night, it will not last and you will be working for gas money not to mention insurance and dating HELLO. -- do you even have an engine stand ????? working on the garage floor is out of the question , do you have a way to clean the parts you take off --- Safty kleen machine / air compressor -- have you kept the stuff you have taken off separate from one another -- like rocker arms and inside ball pivots have you kept them together as what went where -- it does make a difference -- if it is deff you are changing the cam than the lifters dont matter just throw them away -- NOTE : old cam = new lifters / or same place they came from on the old cam --- new cam = new lifters no exceptions flat tappet -- roller stuff is different -- Y not just re gasket the motor you have and put a small cam and t chain , oil pump in it witha manifold and carb period that is in you budget it will have lots of power run good and last with the stuff you have - jz

[WayFast84]

I know, the car is not going to be my beater, how ever will be driven all the nice days. How much power does compresion really make?

I have the combo Im gonna stick with, I dont care about money anymore, this is as cheap as its gonna get with out cutting corners expect to see the car at january meet, if not at dyno day. Is it possible to replace pistons at home? with out boring and honing and crap? I can afford the pistons just not labor once again..

[deadtrend1]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

I know, the car is not going to be my beater, how ever will be driven all the nice days. How much power does compresion really make?

I have the combo Im gonna stick with, I dont care about money anymore, this is as cheap as its gonna get with out cutting corners expect to see the car at january meet, if not at dyno day. Is it possible to replace pistons at home? with out boring and honing and crap? I can afford the pistons just not labor once again..

Um, it would be in the best interest to re hone it. 3 sentences before that you said "without cutting corners". You can do anything at home if you have the tools.

[johnjzjz]

Ok understand this -- industry wide in the cam shaft buzz they know 25% to 35% of all the flat tappet cams installed will and do fail -- reasons are all over the place but you only want to do it once the correct way is expensive and time consuming -- the lifter bores are the number one reason for failier 99% of cam changes no one ball hones them smooth and the stone debris from the hone must be flushed from the motor completly ???? can you do this ) as far as the pistons go if i thought you had someone who knew what they were doing helping you i could lend you the correct bore gague and the two hones ( ball type and cross hatch scuff hone to finish with ) piston change in a 400 the rods are pressed onto the pistons and not lightly -- most times the old pistons brake apart to remove and new ones to install the rod end has to be heated the pin chilled and than quickly installed not a novis thing first timer -- can do that part for you if you ever get their for free i have all the stuff NOTE the pistons in some cases are directionally and left or right side only ( short rod thing 400 motor ) and rods the factory #s on them on the bearing split side with the tonges are facing to the out side of the motor --- see you dont know what i am talking about and yes they can be and will go in backwards and run maybe 1/2 hour than seaze motor -- who is helping you did any one offer that has done any of this -- that is the first thing you need is a guy to help you ??????? --- not buy more parts you cant use -- fine a helper to do the motor and fit up stuff i am jamed in the shop and am not going to make the season opener already, but will fit in some of the things you cant do that will cost you money you dont have, but i cant re do the motor even as a job for 4 or 5 months, in my book mid may is the first opening for anyone including my sons motor -- jz

[NJSPEEDER]

i don't see any point in replacing the pistons if there is no known problem. if you want to update the pistons ir isn't worth jsut doing that when you have the engine half apart already, get it checked out and do fresh bearings on everything while you are at it.

johjzjz, i was always taught that cleaning out the lifter bores with emery cloth was all that was really needed. is that good enough ro are you saying that more shoudl be done? i have never had a new cam fail due to a lifter problem before so i thought it was enough.

[WayFast84]

teh reason Id be changing is for more compresion. heres why

Originally Posted by Slow Z

my car is a pretty bad example of a budget performance car. It went 12.52 @ 108mph on motor and 11.62 @ 117mph on a 150 shot. I never once played with the tuning or anything - i just got in and drove it. I'm sure a lot was left on the table. I originally had the XE274H but switched to the nitroushp grind (NX274H). Car slowed down 1 tenth on motor but on spray it did the 11.60 @ 117mph with a 2.0 60ft. If it would have hooked I'm sure it would have been very low 11's.

A good friend of mine has a Vortec headed 400 that runs 11.60's on motor. His car is setup like this: 1981 Malibu weighs 3600lbs with driver. .060 over 400 with stock crank, rods, and kb hyper pistons that give around 10.8:1 (runs on 93 octane just fine). Vortecs are unported and have the stock valves, they have good springs, screw in studs, and all that stuff. Camshaft is Comp's XS282 solid which is 244/252 @ 050, .520/.540 lift, 110LSA. Super Victor vortec intake, 750 Mighty Demon carb, junkyard HEI distributor with good parts and a MSD 6AL box. Trans is a TH350 with an Art Carr "Torco" 9.5" converter (same as my car) that stalls around 4000RPM. Rear has 3.42 gears and a set of 26" ET radials.

...This car is a bad mother ****er for whats put into it and gets driven all over the place. He'll put hundreds of miles on this car on a nice saturday. It's been a best of 11.60 @ 113 on motor and 10.90 @ 123 on a very safe tuned 125 shot. We always joked about putting this motor into my car (much lighter than his, should be low 11's on motor) but it blew up recently and hes moving onto bigger and better things.

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i don't see any point in replacing the pistons if there is no known problem. if you want to update the pistons ir isn't worth jsut doing that when you have the engine half apart already, get it checked out and do fresh bearings on everything while you are at it.

johjzjz, i was always taught that cleaning out the lifter bores with emery cloth was all that was really needed. is that good enough ro are you saying that more shoudl be done? i have never had a new cam fail due to a lifter problem before so i thought it was enough.

its more a debris issue but also what you use -- small specs of sanding material on the cam bearings is not good -- or any place for that matter -- in the days before small ball hones ( we used a brake cyl hone ) yes we did it like that as well cloth and your finger -- its at best partial and usually only gets you finger side slit open nail caught you been their -- we found years back the lifter bore location was also a problen you have no dought seen those redone -- but in my shop we found as well the bottom of the lifer bore was the bad guy, edges will form and than with high spring pressure first time in use, scrape the lifter stoping it in its bore ( debris on it or scraches causing a lock you have seen that as well ) a gaul will apear and lifter will stop turning -- this is the problem it rubs the cam right off -- note i re do a lot of well used race motors and high spring pressure does all kinds of things not seen in a street / redone for race car block motor, maybe i see to much and over do what we do in my shop -- its all about how clean it is when it is fired everything is just ( bull maybe )

[NJSPEEDER]

i woudl always clean up the bore with emery cloth until i could stick a late model roller lifter in and slide it up and down while turning it without any resistance. then clean up would be first with a paper towel and windex, then everyplace in the lifter bore and cam area that i coudl reach with a tack cloth.
my experience is almost all with street motors, maybe i have jsut been lucky so far.

[johnjzjz]

you said roller lifter not an issue -- flat tappet has to turn a roller just runs up and down

[hardline_42]

Matt, how much compression are you after? If you keep the stock dished pistons and only upgrade to a 64cc head you're up approx. a whole point in compression. You have a little more wiggle room if you play with the quench height (you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400). If you really want to run higher than 9.5:1 compression you can either mill the heads or swap out pistons, but remember either way you go won't be cheap and it won't be easily reversible if you find out it's not what you wanted. If you go the piston route, you might as well redo the whole bottom end while you're at it.

Also, about the post by SlowZ that you quoted above, it's worth it to find out a few things. For starters, climate and elevation have an impact on how much compression you can safely run. How far above sea level is he? What temps is he running in? Also, why did the engine blow up and why does he (or his friend) feel the need to pursue a different engine instead of rebuilding that one? Just a few things to keep in mind before taking it for granted that 10.8:1 is safe to run on pump gas.

[NJSPEEDER]

i just use a roller lifter to test with because they are more commonly found to not be out of round(gm quality control at it's finest). so if there are any high spots in the lifter bore it is easier to find.
they are also much easier to hold onto since they are a bit longer

[johnjzjz]

years back the only way to check a valve guide bore was with an oversize mandrill .0005 to .005 was in the regular kit -- we had one of the guys who was real good on the lathe make me a set of lifter bore go no go gague in .0005 thats a 1/2 size --- But we dont use them today we use a bore scope and check roundness as well -- now putting a .001 bore scope dial in a lifter bore and as you operate it up an down and side to side you can see the difference between handed sanded and ball hone much steadier with the ball hone this is all for flat tappets rollers do other stuff -- jz

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by hardline_42

Matt, how much compression are you after? If you keep the stock dished pistons and only upgrade to a 64cc head you're up approx. a whole point in compression. You have a little more wiggle room if you play with the quench height (you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400). If you really want to run higher than 9.5:1 compression you can either mill the heads or swap out pistons, but remember either way you go won't be cheap and it won't be easily reversible if you find out it's not what you wanted. If you go the piston route, you might as well redo the whole bottom end while you're at it.

Also, about the post by SlowZ that you quoted above, it's worth it to find out a few things. For starters, climate and elevation have an impact on how much compression you can safely run. How far above sea level is he? What temps is he running in? Also, why did the engine blow up and why does he (or his friend) feel the need to pursue a different engine instead of rebuilding that one? Just a few things to keep in mind before taking it for granted that 10.8:1 is safe to run on pump gas.

(you can modify a 0.015 shim gasket for a 350 to fit a 400).
tin gasket wont work with steam holes
the 350 steel ring is aprox 4.090 in diam and sits on the block away from the bore .010 to .035 and the 400 motor is 4.125 the 350 metal ring is sitting inside the combustion chamber ??? almost its entire area it covers over the paper part -- that dident work for long if you did that - jz

[WayFast84]

JZ, the 882's you have and what ever else, do you think it would be a reasonable amount to make it in the 11's all motor? I dont care if its an 11.9

How much money would the 882's be for the steam holes drilled?

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by WayFast84

JZ, the 882's you have and what ever else, do you think it would be a reasonable amount to make it in the 11's all motor? I dont care if its an 11.9

How much money would the 882's be for the steam holes drilled?

the heads with steam holes and springs set at the correct pressure for the cam you want to use and cleaned guides lubed ready to go, the 882s were decked, guides machined topped for PC crane seals and installed, spring bases were matched to match valve heights, and heads were drilled and tapped for arp studs to use push rod guide plates new 3 angle valve job and all the valves were cut i did say i would also back cut the valves and when i do i will picture the ports so you can see the difference at .100 lift on the valve all for 200 bucks -- i dont have the push rod plates and only have 15 studs BUT i have a shop we work with i will be seeing the guy in a day or so and i might get another stud 3/8 top 7/16 bottom will try -- jz

[johnjzjz]

as far as running 11s with a 3600 lb camaro you will need almost 500 HP and your not getting it with the combo you have