So GM finally realized the new "GTO" sucks...

[camaroracer1992]

only took them 3 freaking years, i never liked that car since it came out, if they wouldve made it like the concept pics of the orange one back in early 2000 when i saw it, they wouldve been way ahead of ford with teh retro mustang, but give it to GM to be a follower and not a leader.......... someday

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah, they could have spent millions to revamp a plant that only made about 30k Monaros for world wide consumption, and we told them to increase it 33% for the last 3 years, and we wanted this car to come to the US asap, and oh by the way, could you just tack on this sheetmetal real quick, so we can make a few enthusiats happy?? Thanks a bunch.

It would have taken an extra 3 years just to approve new shetmetal. By then, we would have had NO performance car.

[Rob WS6]

Exactly, why would GM want to make a car look nice to impress a few "enthusiasts" right? Cut me a break with the holier-than-thou GM **** already, its getting old.

[BigAls87Z28]

So, they should have forced Holden to retrofit there plant for a chassis that they werent gunna make in 3 years, just to please 60 year old die hards like you? Give ME a break.
Not everyone wants a retro mobile. That GTO concept looked as bloated as a 4th gen, if not more. Obviously more people found the GTO attractive then the Trans Am, since the last 2 years, the GTO continiously outsold the Trans Am in its last year.
400hp and 33k, 12 sec 1/4 mile, modern independant front and rear suspension, a upper class interior, automatic and manual transmission, seating for 4 ADULTS, and you are gunna bitch because it doesnt look like a 64?
Maybe some of you have a little ricer inside, just dying to get out? Maybe if they put on more scoops, made them bigger, and put them all around the body, and then threw on a big ol'wing, and put a decal on the side called "Judge", would that make it mad phat, dawg?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Obviously more people found the GTO attractive then the Trans Am, since the last 2 years, the GTO continiously outsold the Trans Am in its last year.

It seats more than 2 people that's why lol. Seriously though, I consider the Fbody's a 2 seater vehicle. Unless you're really flexible or a circus midget(or both lol) you're not fitting in the back seat of those damn things.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Rob WS6

Exactly, why would GM want to make a car look nice to impress a few "enthusiasts" right? Cut me a break with the holier-than-thou GM **** already, its getting old.

the car that was sold actually market tested and was reviewe better than the concept car. it was a mass appeal car with solid performance, comfort, and value.
if GM ever had any thoughts of making it similar to the old GTO it would have been available stripped down and extremely plain jane othr than some badging. that is what the original muscle car was, a lightweight with excess power. the new GTO was intended to sell to the spirit of the original muscle cars, not be a throw back to one

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Maybe some of you have a little ricer inside, just dying to get out? Maybe if they put on more scoops, made them bigger, and put them all around the body, and then threw on a big ol'wing, and put a decal on the side called "Judge", would that make it mad phat, dawg?

Nah... it would need bigger wheels. Chrome. Spinnaz.

[Oddball]

I'm excited for the day when my Honda does. I'll have just three requirements:

- Large back seat for three kids in boosters
- Nice power
- No Grandpa car

Looks like some HP wars are going on, but with an adult twist. We have the Charger, hopefully a 4-door brother to the new (after 2 year break) GTO and new Camaro, and plenty of 4-door sedans from Acura and the Domestically-made "Imports".

I'm not a kid anymore. My IROC is fun but I need a practical daily driver. If I didn't have twins my Accord would ideal but I need the space and power of a Charger and don't want an SUV.

When the boys are grown I can get the coupe.

Until then, keep importing "domestic" cars GM cause we know no American car will have a nice interior.

[Rob WS6]

Yeah you got me Al, Im a ricer at heart. Youve figured me out! Guess its time I come out of the closet. Moron.

And ofcourse it outsold the Trans Am, it was the ONLY sports car offered by GM besides the 'Vette. I dont know ANYONE who thinks the GTO is better looking than ANY f-body.

And noone says it has to look like a 68, but who the hell wants a Grand Am on steroids?

[NJSPEEDER]

there are plenty of years of firebirds that i think don't look as good as the GTO.
i also want to know how GM not offering another V8 rear drive effects people picking the GTO over the offerings from every other company. the GTO had strong sales against BMW, M-B, Acura, and a host of other companies. all companies with a more established customer base in the market segment, and the GTO took share from them.
i don't see why you insist on putting the GTO and the firebird/trans am in the same group. they are very different cars targeted at very different markets. the GTO was teh right car for the gap GM was trying to fill.

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by Rob WS6

And noone says it has to look like a 68, but who the hell wants a Grand Am on steroids?

The same eople who wanted a Tempest on steroids

[LS1Hawk]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

So, they should have forced Holden to retrofit there plant for a chassis that they werent gunna make in 3 years, just to please 60 year old die hards like you? Give ME a break.
Not everyone wants a retro mobile. That GTO concept looked as bloated as a 4th gen, if not more. Obviously more people found the GTO attractive then the Trans Am, since the last 2 years, the GTO continiously outsold the Trans Am in its last year.
400hp and 33k, 12 sec 1/4 mile, modern independant front and rear suspension, a upper class interior, automatic and manual transmission, seating for 4 ADULTS, and you are gunna bitch because it doesnt look like a 64?
Maybe some of you have a little ricer inside, just dying to get out? Maybe if they put on more scoops, made them bigger, and put them all around the body, and then threw on a big ol'wing, and put a decal on the side called "Judge", would that make it mad phat, dawg?

The 1999 Concept was hideous. They tried putting elements of every year/generation into that and look how far it went. Didn't work at all. And what about the Autocross/Sports Appearance Package for 05-06? "Agressive" ground effects, higher spoiler, deeper grille, etc., yet every GTO I see on the road doesn't sport it. It's obvious the buyers liked the idea of a classy/sleeper looking car with a lot of power.

You have to remember, GMs intent was not to get people from Ford over to Pontiac with this car. It's a completely different vehicle from the Mustang. They were gunning for BMW owners and the like, and from what I've read it worked. A good majority of GTO buyers were first time GM buyers. And we all know how banal and plain those imports look, more so than the GTO.

[V]

I dont think the GTO was horrible, but it was definately lacking. I have mixed feelings about bringing back a former name of a car on a new design. It only works if there are obvious similarities or styling cues. The GTO didn't do it. Im in no way saying the GTO was bad or should not have been made. Im saying GM could have saved tons of money IF they just could have managed to keep the Monaro nameplate and only made a LHD version that met US regulations. Personally I would have considered buying Pontiac Monaro way before a "GTO", but thats just me. With the camaro concept, challenger concept, and the '05 mustang, i think they got all 3 right in the aspect of keeping the style fitting the name.

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i also want to know how GM not offering another V8 rear drive effects people picking the GTO over the offerings from every other company.

there are some people who are still loyal to GM.

the only thing the hiatus of the camaro and introduction of the GTO did for me was make me look at other GM brands. i didn't act on any of those impulses, thankfully, because i will be in perfect shape when the camaro comes out. provided that i don't find another 'project' car...

one more time for the cheap seats: car enthusiasts make up 1% (that's one percent) of the total car consumer market. you can suggest they do something to appease us, like bring back the firebird, but don't hold your breath. a car like the mustang appeals to more people than just enthusiasts and i certainly hope the camaro is the same way. it's the only way to ensure longevity in this fickle market where people are still hung up on the '80s where the imports had it all over the US auto makers.

maybe if people looked at it from my (slightly skewed) perspective: every import car sold means one less job for an american. with so many other things happening in the US economy, why can't we at least hang on to the factory jobs? do we have to ship every last dollar overseas to some other corporation? then sit back and lament that there are no jobs for our kids? 30% of americans graduate college, only to do what? work at mcdonalds? where is the future? why can't we (as a whole) see past our own greedy little noses?

[chevyt454]

It just needed to be more exciting

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

maybe if people looked at it from my (slightly skewed) perspective: every import car sold means one less job for an american.

To put it in pespective, Hondas are made in Ohio, Nissans in Tennessee, and I forget where where Toyat's are. The "imports" are *moving* production to the US while the "domestics" are moving it out.

When I interviewed with Honda in 1995 for an engineering job they were doing everything they could to find American parts suppliers but had problems because of Quality concerns.

Sorry to sound like an *ss but the argument over american jobs is meaningless. Look at the VIN numbers for domestics versus imports and notice which ones start with "1".

[Savage_Messiah]

This argument has been here before and it's tricky... while they are employing americans, the coporation is still in Japan, Korea, wherever... most of the profit is going there, not to the payroll...

[Ian]

Originally Posted by SmokingSS

I dont think the GTO was horrible, but it was definately lacking. I have mixed feelings about bringing back a former name of a car on a new design. It only works if there are obvious similarities or styling cues. The GTO didn't do it. Im in no way saying the GTO was bad or should not have been made. Im saying GM could have saved tons of money IF they just could have managed to keep the Monaro nameplate and only made a LHD version that met US regulations. Personally I would have considered buying Pontiac Monaro way before a "GTO", but thats just me. With the camaro concept, challenger concept, and the '05 mustang, i think they got all 3 right in the aspect of keeping the style fitting the name.

think about what the GTO started out as...a full sized car with a big motor and a few other performance options. They made the modern day GTO perfectly in keeping with what the GTO stood for in the first place. Take a plain looking full sized two door car and jam a big, powerful motor into it. Maybe its just me but I thought they hit the nail on the head with the GTO.

[V]

true, but the fact they took an already existing car, not really a "full sized car" IMO and just slapped badges on it and a few minor body mods.. deos that make it a GTO, ok so the tempest was an already existing car, but it was already in the marketplace, whereas here in th US, i believe the holden monaro could have brought egual profit that the GTOs did, if it was just introduced as is. BUT i do understand everyones side of this disscussion since we all have a valid point or two i think.

Lexus did the same thing in some aspects. ie the first lexsus is300, in japan it was the Toyota Altezza. Hmm lets bring it to the states, slap a lexus badge on it and make more money. its still a toyota.

[Ian]

yeah, I see where you're coming from too, neither of us are worng, its really just a matter of opinion and "what if's"

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by Oddball

To put it in pespective, Hondas are made in Ohio, Nissans in Tennessee, and I forget where where Toyat's are. The "imports" are *moving* production to the US while the "domestics" are moving it out.

When I interviewed with Honda in 1995 for an engineering job they were doing everything they could to find American parts suppliers but had problems because of Quality concerns.

Sorry to sound like an *ss but the argument over american jobs is meaningless. Look at the VIN numbers for domestics versus imports and notice which ones start with "1".

you have put nothing into perspective but your own bleating. yes, you are a sheep being led around to believe what they want you to believe. just because the car is assembled in the US doesn't mean squat. the money leaves the US and heads for korea or japan or where ever - that is eroding our economy and you can wear your rose colored glasses if you wish but it still comes out the same. fewer JOBS for AMERICANS. period. fewer of our dollars staying in this country and supporting our economy.

if more people start thinking like you, then you'll be driving afghani cars in 40 years.

what is meaningless today is the parts content. there is no way to stay competitive in the auto market without a certain percentage of your parts coming from outside the US - not for "quality" concerns, but bare cost. they can make anything cheaper outside the US and since people are dead set against buying american cars because they had their heads up their asses in the '80s and the japanese took over the market, the parts content has shifted to mostly outside the US.

if people came around so quickly to the fact that the US was turning out a **** product, why is it taking them so long to realize that the tables have turned? go check consumer reports then get back to me.

if we were living in a country that didn't produce automobiles, then we wouldn't have a choice and we would have to purchase an import if we wanted to drive. however, we do have a choice. and you can choose american. so why don't you?

p.s. nothing tricky to the argument at all. you can either see the truth or you can continue to be blinded by the out-dated propaganda.

[Ian]

I agree with Jim. I never understood that. people will spend all day bitching that our economy is going down the ****ter, then they hop into their honda or toyota and drive home. Kind of a case of "do as I say, not as I do"

[Savage_Messiah]

Jim that almost brought a tear to my eye... that's nothing but the truth.

[jims69camaro]

i apologize for calling him a sheep - it's just that i get carried away sometimes with this argument. it's not one that anyone that enters the ring with me can win. it comes down to the almighty dollar, and people need to reinvest their dollar in the US if we are going to continue to be the economic super power that we once were.

funny thing is, we created japan's economy for them after WWII. we are always going around doing things that come back to bite us in the ass afterwards. i am all for a world economy and semi-free trade (as long as the scales are balanced), but the japanese have it all over us in many fields.

it's a shame, really, that we are wasting our number one resource: our people. only a third of our young people go on to college, while their percentage is way higher (in the 80%, i think). instead of some of this liberal arts ******** that people are teaching, why don't they teach bare bones economics so that, at least, the people who go to college would know better than to buy a foreign car...

[LS1Hawk]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

it's a shame, really, that we are wasting our number one resource: our people. only a third of our young people go on to college, while their percentage is way higher (in the 80%, i think). instead of some of this liberal arts ******** that people are teaching, why don't they teach bare bones economics so that, at least, the people who go to college would know better than to buy a foreign car...

Damn straight.