Should the government bailout the American car companies?

[pound]

As much as I am a GM fan, I have to say that I am against bailouts for anyone. Not for Wall Street, not for the big three, not for consumers with too much credit card debt. Rewarding failure never works out well. By giving handouts the government is giving any company with a failing business model an excuse to put their hand out. If one or more of the American car companies fails someone else will step up to fill the void. Its not like people are going to be able to not buy a car just because GM or Ford doesn't sell cars anymore.

[79CamaroDiva]

Originally Posted by pound

As much as I am a GM fan, I have to say that I am against bailouts for anyone. Not for Wall Street, not for the big three, not for consumers with too much credit card debt. Rewarding failure never works out well. By giving handouts the government is giving any company with a failing business model an excuse to put their hand out. If one or more of the American car companies fails someone else will step up to fill the void. Its not like people are going to be able to not buy a car just because GM or Ford doesn't sell cars anymore.

I understand this reasoning, and if it were a smaller company i would agree. But simply put, if American auto manufacturers go out of business, I will be looking for a house in another country, because this country will go into a depression worse than the Great Depression. Back then, they didn't rely on foreign anything. Food and essentials were still made at home. That is not the case anymore. We rely on so many imported goods, that once ANOTHER 10% of american jobs are lost, we will not be able to hold our own as a country. The unemployment rate will raise to 16.5% (assuming, 10% more than the 6.5 it is already increasing from). That is completely ludicrous, and unrecoverable. I don't want to bail out the companies, but unfortunately, we need to keep our people employed.

[pound]

Originally Posted by 79CamaroDiva

I understand this reasoning, and if it were a smaller company i would agree. But simply put, if American auto manufacturers go out of business, I will be looking for a house in another country, because this country will go into a depression worse than the Great Depression. Back then, they didn't rely on foreign anything. Food and essentials were still made at home. That is not the case anymore. We rely on so many imported goods, that once ANOTHER 10% of american jobs are lost, we will not be able to hold our own as a country. The unemployment rate will raise to 16.5% (assuming, 10% more than the 6.5 it is already increasing from). That is completely ludicrous, and unrecoverable. I don't want to bail out the companies, but unfortunately, we need to keep our people employed.

You are basing your unemployment numbers on the assumption that 100% of the jobs from the big three will go overseas. Foreign automakers already have numerous plants in this country and would likely simply expand those operations to fill the void created by a domestic auto company failure.

[LS1Hawk]

I don't know if it's been said yet because I haven't read through all these posts, but 1 in 13 jobs in the US - not out of auto jobs, out of every job - are tied to the US Auto industry. Can you imagine the ramifications if the US auto industry crumbles? You're talking MILLIONS of jobs lost. It would be like a virus that cannot be contained. The Big 3 need help and I'm for a bailout. But, the bigwigs need to go, i.e. Tricky Dick Wagoner. And something has to be done about the UAW...they've been riding the gravy train for too long. That's the one thing that worries me...all the money ends up being just a bailout for the UAW.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

No one is making them work there, and Im not saying pay the SAME wages as the UAW has worked out.

Well my bad for not reading your mind, because here it clearly state "the same".

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

They must pay the workers the same as the UAW workers are paid, as well as supply benifits to thoes workers that are equal to the UAW.
I

Actually, the UAW's starting hour rate is dropping in 2010, another big thing that GM must be around for.

Irrelevant, GM will run out of money by the end of this year.

Whats communistic about having foriegn companies taking advantage of our generocity and we have to level the field?
Is it a shade of protectionisim? Sure is. Its worked for Europe, its working for Japan, and its working for China.

What is not communist about making everyone across the board pay the same wage to their workers as GM does, others didn't get themselves into that mess- why should they suffer?

So why is America the ONLY country giving foriegn companies the keys to the country when American companies are behind the 8 ball not only in America, but abroad.

They ruined their own reputation by producing subpar product; now the consumer does not want anything to do with them, and you are asking who is to blame?

Take the morgage bail out of 700 billion. We are giving money to banks, and to other companies buying up smaller banks so they can get a hand out!! AIG is chewing through billions and billions, and nothing is done!!
No one is stopping the bleeding, banks are still not lending, people are not spending money.
GM wants 1/3 of 25 billion dollars to survive and move foward and become profitable. ****, AIG burned through 25 billion in just the last week.

Is there a point in there some where or do you just wanna bitch and moan about GM not getting the 25 billion?

Surely we are not paying out of our own pocket right now, but correct me if I'm wrong (anyone); printing trillions of dollars will result in inflation, which will greatly reduce the buying power of the dollar, which in turn will make it worthless if we start printing money like Zimbabwe ( you know that everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire, right?). Retirement, savings, insurance, pensions, and annuities will go to crap; in addition you will be able to buy less food and clothing. And you think if companies will compensate with higher wages, well you are wrong again, your money will depreciate faster than any raise you will ever get, which in turn will make you piss poor. Wages will take years to catch up. So how much do you want to live in Zimbabwe and be a millionaire?

Yay for the bailout...


P.S. I forgot to add, protecting the national manufacturer does not always work, if people believe that they are producing an inferior product they will not buy anyways. No matter how much you tax "the bad guy".

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by Tsar

Yay for the bailout...

yay for cheap gas!

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

yay for cheap gas!

yes because cheaper gas was a result of the bailout...

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by pound

You are basing your unemployment numbers on the assumption that 100% of the jobs from the big three will go overseas. Foreign automakers already have numerous plants in this country and would likely simply expand those operations to fill the void created by a domestic auto company failure.

That numeric assumption is based on the jobs vanishing. We aren't talking about the big 3 having to move, we are talking about the risk of them leaving the earth's economy in every way, shape, and form.

I am sure the other manufacturers would be aable to pick up a small percentage of the newly unemployed, but so many jobs would be gone that it would not be of any help to the economy.

-Tim

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by pound

You are basing your unemployment numbers on the assumption that 100% of the jobs from the big three will go overseas. Foreign automakers already have numerous plants in this country and would likely simply expand those operations to fill the void created by a domestic auto company failure.

You are clearly retarded.
No way, no how, could the foreign auto makers come close to filling any void left from the colapse of the Big 3.
No jobs will go overseas. No jobs will go to the other automakers.
The Big 3 will stop being. Thier major suppliers, who are already cash strapped, will go out of business.
And to throw a shocker at you...thoes same suppliers ALSO supply to the foreign automakers!! DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!!
That means that the foreign auto makers will not be able to get its supplies for thier cars.
Lets not forget that 3 million people will be out of a job, draining TRILLIONS out of the goverment. MORE forclosures, more credit defaults, more banking issues, which means less spending on everything because more people are losing thier jobs.
Worst case, America is done. Everything you know, everything that people have died for, will be gone. Revolution perhaps? Who knows. Perhaps there will be increased domestic terrorist attacks on Import factories in the south.
Is that a bit extreme? Yeah.

So, is throwing the Big 3 a few billion dollars THAT bad? No.
Is it more benificial then throwing a trillion dollars to a bunch of banks, in where they are just doing what they will with the money right now. Buying up other banks, spending millions on bonus packages, golden parachuets, and the banks are doing nothing to stop the bleeding.
The goverment should have bought up the failed morgages, refinanced, and tried to keep people in thier houses.
Nope, keep on giving AIG 50 billion at a time, and they keep squadering it. Good idea Goverment!!
But GM, who has a legit problem, ef you because you didnt support the GOP.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

That numeric assumption is based on the jobs vanishing. We aren't talking about the big 3 having to move, we are talking about the risk of them leaving the earth's economy in every way, shape, and form.

I am sure the other manufacturers would be aable to pick up a small percentage of the newly unemployed, but so many jobs would be gone that it would not be of any help to the economy.

-Tim

Well, shocker, they will have to find jobs in something else besides the auto industry.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by Tsar

yes because cheaper gas was a result of the bailout...

Well you were talking about the depreciation on the dollar and since the price of gas is based on the dollar, yes, it was relevant. The Zimbabwe comment, yea.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by Shownomercy

Well you were talking about the depreciation on the dollar and since the price of gas is based on the dollar, yes, it was relevant. The Zimbabwe comment, yea.

Um..pretty sure inflation makes prices go up not down (have you went food shopping recently?), and gas went down because of the reduced demand for it, and spiraling down economy - not printing more money...

Oh I forgot another thing that making the gas go down... speculators.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Tsar

Well, shocker, they will have to find jobs in something else besides the auto industry.

Where?

We are not just talking about jobs directly in the auto industry. If the manufacturers go under, you reduce the need for coal(it still powers most steel mills) and steel, so all those miners are out of work, every company that supplies a material, part, or service to the auto industry would be f'ed too. There would just be no way the jobs lost could be absorbed into the economy.

The number of jobs lost would trickle through the rest of the economy with in a few weeks and tear the last life out of the economy for decades to come. America would be the first developed nation in the world to fall back to a below third world economy.

-Tim

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Tsar

What is not communist about making everyone across the board pay the same wage to their workers as GM does, others didn't get themselves into that mess- why should they suffer?

Suffer? Why should Americans suffer due to unfair trade advantage?
Why should millions of people be out of a job because of other goverments having a hand in the massive profits that the Japanese have pulled from the US?
Why should America give any advantage to anyone that isnt supporting American GDP?

They ruined their own reputation by producing subpar product; now the consumer does not want anything to do with them, and you are asking who is to blame?

What does past have to do with the present? American consumers are still buying GM product, and with thier advancements in quality vehicles, why stop now?

Is there a point in there some where or do you just wanna bitch and moan about GM not getting the 25 billion?

Point is that the major problem people have with givng the Big 3 25 billion is because they will squader it, but the banks have done nothing but squander.

Surely we are not paying out of our own pocket right now, but correct me if I'm wrong (anyone); printing trillions of dollars will result in inflation, which will greatly reduce the buying power of the dollar, which in turn will make it worthless if we start printing money like Zimbabwe ( you know that everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire, right?). Retirement, savings, insurance, pensions, and annuities will go to crap; in addition you will be able to buy less food and clothing. And you think if companies will compensate with higher wages, well you are wrong again, your money will depreciate faster than any raise you will ever get, which in turn will make you piss poor. Wages will take years to catch up. So how much do you want to live in Zimbabwe and be a millionaire?

The goverment knows how to get out of inflationary situations. Thats the least of thier problems.
Id rather have an inflation problem, then a depression problem.

Yay for the bailout...

Yes, yay for the bailout.

P.S. I forgot to add, protecting the national manufacturer does not always work, if people believe that they are producing an inferior product they will not buy anyways. No matter how much you tax "the bad guy".

Agreed, but we will cross that bridge when we get there. GM has shown it can make class leading product, and has continued to do so.
Hell, for all intents and purposes, the only problem Toyota woudl have would be the lack of profit it would make in North America. It doesnt matter if they take #1 globally, but preventing the profiteering off the kindness of America must end.
As for future foriegn investments, any and all other foreign automakers that want to come to the US must work in conjunction with US automakers, build in US auto plants, giving them a step into America, but keeping them under the control of the US Automakers.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Where?

We are not just talking about jobs directly in the auto industry. If the manufacturers go under, you reduce the need for coal(it still powers most steel mills) and steel, so all those miners are out of work, every company that supplies a material, part, or service to the auto industry would be f'ed too. There would just be no way the jobs lost could be absorbed into the economy.

The number of jobs lost would trickle through the rest of the economy with in a few weeks and tear the last life out of the economy for decades to come. America would be the first developed nation in the world to fall back to a below third world economy.

-Tim

Well I guess they will have to adopt. That's what people do when times are hard. Will it be hard to find a job, probably, impossible - no. Hell you can work in wall mart, shop rite, do side jobs, landscaping, yard work. Bunch of menial jobs that people do NOT like to think about. At one point, my mother worked 2 jobs for about 4 years with 0 (and i will repeat ZERO) days off. People gotta suck it up and do it, stop bitching and complaining - you know what you need, well go there and get it.

I hate to point this out as an example but my mother came to this country with 50 bucks in her pocket 11 years ago, and didn't know any English. She made it because she knew what she wanted, and knew what she wanted to do - there was no bitching and complaining like I hear from some people there was only work, work, and more damn work. Guess what, it worked.

If one went to any college then go back to it and use their career services, and look for jobs through that. There are thousands of jobs posted on Penn State's website and people are still hiring and coming here for the career fair, BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR JOBS, they will not come to you.

Person that can't find ANY job in today's world is NOT LOOKING HARD ENOUGH.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Why should millions of people be out of a job because of other goverments having a hand in the massive profits that the Japanese have pulled from the US?
Why should America give any advantage to anyone that isnt supporting American GDP?

You can tax foreign auto all you want, if people believe it is better than American they will still buy it.

What does past have to do with the present? American consumers are still buying GM product, and with thier advancements in quality vehicles, why stop now?

ARE YOU SERIOUS? what does past have to do with present? how about EVERYTHING? My mother will never own a Ford because it broke down every other week. Does ford make better product now? Maybe, will she ever buy it? HELL NO. Ford can be the most reliable car in the world, and she would not touch it with a stick. I suspect she is not the only one. When people have bad experiences they tend to remember them, and well not do the same mistake... I must say WOW again.

Point is that the major problem people have with givng the Big 3 25 billion is because they will squader it, but the banks have done nothing but squander.

Let's just say that big 3 are at the end of the gravy train... no one wants them to have this money now. If they were the first ones like AIG, they would probably get it no problem. But the fact is, they are not. They will waste the money just like everyone else. Go to a spa or some crap. I for one do not want to see more money go to waste.

Part of the problem is the fact that banks squander it, so why should we PRINT MORE MONEY AND WASTE IT ON GM?

The goverment knows how to get out of inflationary situations. Thats the least of thier problems.

BS, prices of food have been climbing steadly and nothing has been done. Hell apples used to be (last fall) <2.50 and now they are 4 bucks.

Id rather have an inflation problem, then a depression problem.

I would rather have money, and no inflation.



[/QUOTE]

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Tsar

Well I guess they will have to adopt. That's what people do when times are hard. Will it be hard to find a job, probably, impossible - no. Hell you can work in wall mart, shop rite, do side jobs, landscaping, yard work. Bunch of menial jobs that people do NOT like to think about. At one point, my mother worked 2 jobs for about 4 years with 0 (and i will repeat ZERO) days off. People gotta suck it up and do it, stop bitching and complaining - you know what you need, well go there and get it.

I hate to point this out as an example but my mother came to this country with 50 bucks in her pocket 11 years ago, and didn't know any English. She made it because she knew what she wanted, and knew what she wanted to do - there was no bitching and complaining like I hear from some people there was only work, work, and more damn work. Guess what, it worked.

If one went to any college then go back to it and use their career services, and look for jobs through that. There are thousands of jobs posted on Penn State's website and people are still hiring and coming here for the career fair, BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR JOBS, they will not come to you.

Person that can't find ANY job in today's world is NOT LOOKING HARD ENOUGH.

If 16% or more of the population is umemployed and whole industries vanish, what can they adopt to? Your view of people solving their own problems at this point is vastly over simplified.

You seem to think there is some alternative for everyone to just pick up and do something else. That simply isn't true.

-Tim

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

If 16% or more of the population is umemployed and whole industries vanish, what can they adopt to? Your view of people solving their own problems at this point is vastly over simplified.

You seem to think there is some alternative for everyone to just pick up and do something else. That simply isn't true.

-Tim

If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Tsar

ARE YOU SERIOUS? what does past have to do with present? how about EVERYTHING? My mother will never own a Ford because it broke down every other week. Does ford make better product now? Maybe, will she ever buy it? HELL NO. Ford can be the most reliable car in the world, and she would not touch it with a stick. I suspect she is not the only one. When people have bad experiences they tend to remember them, and well not do the same mistake... I must say WOW again.

Congrats, you can say wow. English isnt so bad now is it?

No doubt that there are plenty of ignorant people that would never give another company a try. There are plenty of people that also read Consumer Reports and belive it as if it was brought down from the Mount!
I bet you there are plenty of Toyota Tacoma owners that will never own a Toyota again. Or Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES300 owners that will never own another due to oil sludge.
Or Honda Accord, Acura TSX and TL owners who had to keep replacing thier glass transmissions will never buy them again.

Id say that MOST of the people that "will never buy again" due to a failure in thier car turned out to be an OE, or Operator Error.

Can I blame the people who have a bad taste in thier mouth? No. But to totaly ignore, remove themselves from the thought of every owning ANY American automobile ever again because thier Geo Metro was a POS.

Im not saying that people should buy American to be American. But people need to due thier own research, test drive the cars, and be happy with thier purchase.

I had a customer come in and he told me that he wanted his brand new 08 Accord to ride like an 08 Malibu. I gave him a puzzled look, and asked him how did he know what an 08 Malibu feels like when driving?
He said "I drove one, it was great! Interior was great, I liked the style better, and rode and handled better."
Then I asked him why he got the car that rides rough, its because "well, I have had a Honda before, so I figured that this would be the same."
I smiled so big that I think I made him uncomfortable. I then told him that the Malibu's 18 inch tires would not fit his 17 inch Accord wheels, and that he would most likely never be able to replicate the Malibu's ride unless he traded it in for one.

Let's just say that big 3 are at the end of the gravy train... no one wants them to have this money now. If they were the first ones like AIG, they would probably get it no problem. But the fact is, they are not. They will waste the money just like everyone else. Go to a spa or some crap. I for one do not want to see more money go to waste.

People do want the Big 3 to have the money. Most people are upset that they will get it with no strings attached. But most people do want this.

Part of the problem is the fact that banks squander it, so why should we PRINT MORE MONEY AND WASTE IT ON GM?

My point is...why do we have to give the banks the other 350billion? I dont see the need. Banks seem to be doing ok now. Outside of Citi cutting 53k people today, rates are cut so low that there is no reason the banks should not be lending.
I say throw 200billion back into the kitty, and 150b to the Big 3 and Tier 1 suppliers to sure them up.
Then you move foward to prevent this from happening again. The Big 3 must move towards profitability, and the goverment must work with them for that goal.

BS, prices of food have been climbing steadly and nothing has been done. Hell apples used to be (last fall) <2.50 and now they are 4 bucks.

I would rather have money, and no inflation.

Prices of food have been climing for many reasons. First it was fuel costs, then it was costs of something else, now its inflation.

Originally Posted by Tsar

If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.

Its not as simple as just finding another job. If 16% of Americans dont have a job to spend money, then even places like walmart will not be able to hire the people because no one is spending becaue no one has money.
Towns will colapse, the city of Detroit will become a ghost town, industry as a whole will falter faster then ever before.
America will lose its core manufacturing and industry OVERNIGHT!!!
You know what, the Big 3 are also some of the largest purchasers of medication for the UAW, but guess what will happen when they cant buy the drugs? Drug companies will then take a hit, healthcare for the US will dry up. Beyond the secondary supplier jobs, it would hit so hard.
And who is gunna build all our wepons? With most of all the major manufacturing gone, it will be outsourced.

Its a big more complicated then just getting a job at Walmart. When 3 million people are jobless overnight, in an economy where no one is hiring, its gunna hurt REAL bad. Its not like we have this vast and expansive job bank for Americans to fill.

[ins0mnia24]

Even though I have never owned any other brand of car except Gm..
Sadly I have to say let them all fall
Or let them other countries that have more Jobs depending on the big 3 bail them out
It is really sad seeing the numbers of U.S. workers compared to what they have in other countries..

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Tsar

If working in wal mart is not your cup of tea, than it is your problem not mine. If you need a job, find one. Simple as that. It's totally different than not finding a job you want or like. But it is pretty easy to find a job that people typically do not like, such as wal mart. I will always stand by my statement. My family has done it, so can others.

Good, so your example is a few people looking for a job, how does that apply to a scale of millions? Are there a million openings at WalMart? How about the local grocery store? Does every employee have the knowledge or education to adapt to every job opening in the paper? Do all of these newly unemployed have the savings or opportunity to get re-educated to qualify for other positions? Would a few million people be able to find new jobs at comparable income levels to continue to contribute the same way to the economy?

The answer to all of these questions is no.

Just like so many other debates you enter, it is clear that despite all of the reading you have obviously done, you have no concept of scale.

-Tim

[Savage_Messiah]

Vitals... I don't think you're seeing that bigger picture, the one where there is not enough industry here to support 3 million people finding new jobs. Hiring somebody = less profit because you have to pay them. 3 million people out of a job will mean that 3 million people will be cutting down to the bare essentials, meaning a lot less money being spent, meaning less profits for the companies that would need more profit to hire them. It's not as simple s you're making it due to the scale.


So I say yes, bail them out. With guidelines, goals and restrictions as stated before.


And I couldn't agree more with giving tax breaks for buying domestically and hiking tariffs.

[DevilDougWS6]

what if the govt just gave the American citizens all the bailout money to keep circulating through the country to buy new cars from our american auto manufactuerers, and to get more money flowing again. and force companies to stop outsourcing to other countries. yeah its cheaper but its not helping OUR economy at all.

and i agree with most above that its not as simple as finding a new job. companies are not going to be hiring because people are not spending money like they use to on their products, therefore they dont want to pay more people and lose profit...

BUT, hiring more people COULD help the economy if companies had more overhead because those people they hired would be able to buy more things.

the economy is a big circle, you have the people, and you have the companies who provide the product (in a simple scale). people work for companies to make/sell a product(s) to bring profit for the company and pay the employees, in turn the employees spend money on other companies products keeping the companies alive and people making money.

but again wouldnt giving US the people most of the money help out purchasing products that are produced in THIS country to help the money to continue circulating? instead of giving it to the companies (who are going to get our money anyway) to do what the **** ever they want? it makes more sense but it may be more complicated than that.

i blame our poor economy on lazy Americans and outsourcing in a nutshell.

[pound]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

You are clearly retarded.
No way, no how, could the foreign auto makers come close to filling any void left from the colapse of the Big 3.
No jobs will go overseas. No jobs will go to the other automakers.
The Big 3 will stop being. Thier major suppliers, who are already cash strapped, will go out of business.
And to throw a shocker at you...thoes same suppliers ALSO supply to the foreign automakers!! DUN DUN DUNNNNNN!!
That means that the foreign auto makers will not be able to get its supplies for thier cars.

The big three produce X number of cars per year. That means there is consumer demand to buy X number of cars. There is also a minimum amount of labor required to produce those cars. If one of more of the big three go away people will still want to buy X number of cars. Someone else foreign or domestic will step up to meet the demand for these vehicles and they will need to hire people to do it and will need to buy parts from suppliers. Just because a company is closing its doors doesn't mean there is no demand for products that they sell. Take a look at the airlines. Plenty of them have gone under, and their competitors filled the demand for flights and had to hire people to provide those flights. Also, I'm not retarded.

[Frosty]

Um, the airline industry layed off a lot of people when the **** hit the fan.

Shownomercy-T he bailout has NOTHING to do with the oil prices, it has everything to do with grim economic forecasts and reduced energy consumption. A weaker dollar still=higher oil prices compared to a non-inflated weak dollar. I don't understand your connection of an inflated dollar=lower oil prices. You have it backwards.