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09-12-2007, 10:13 AM
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#26
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru2Chevy
Isn't vats controlled by the ECM...which is no longer in the car?
And doesn't Vats only stop power from going to the fuel pump? Meaning that the car will crank all day, but won't start?
- Justin
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I think depending on the year VATS was twofold. It sent a signal to the ECM to pulse the injectors, so if you had the wrong key, failed key or no key it would crank but not fire. Second (as shown in the diagrams Scott put up) it grounded the relay for the starter, so if you had no VATS you wont be able to crank. I know from experience . I am guessing that it may be a VATS issue here. Scott if you want some help with this next time you go let me know and I can lend a hand.
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09-12-2007, 02:45 PM
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#27
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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alright then, tomorrow i'll try gettin around the VATS system. keep ur fingers crossed.
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-12-2007, 02:51 PM
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#28
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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IIRC There should be 4 wires on the starter relay. It should be behind the DS kick panel where the hood release is. Should be a silver box with the 4 wires, 2 large gauge and 2 small gauge. Mine has a light color wire (maybe yellow) and a dark wire with a stripe. I extended the dark small gauge wire and put a ring on the end of it and put it under the screw for the seat belt indicator, solved my problem for the cranking.
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09-13-2007, 11:08 AM
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#29
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,149
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I found ok not great wiring diagrams. Probably hoisted off the autozone site before AZ pulled the 3rd gen diagrams (I'm guessing copyright/payment issues).
http://www.austinthirdgen.org/index.php?pid=19
For the fuel pump IF the red wire to the relay is only hot on START, then you can use it to trigger the realy. All other wiring stays the same. Parts store relay in case of problem, and GM wiring.
I make the assumption that red wire is hot at crank only because it not it would keep the FP running all the time. I know there is a crank fuse.
Also Will, the diagram shows that pink lead from ignition switch to ign coil, so like I told you, splice that big pink out of the harness to the HEI (test it 1st, of course). S-Can that temp HEI wire you have now.
__________________
Vent Windows Forever!
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.
Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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09-13-2007, 11:13 AM
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#30
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,149
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Cooling fan - add a switch. I see no switch in these diagrams, so what we saw must have been a CTS. No good for us.
Like this, again this lets you buy parts at any parts store.
__________________
Vent Windows Forever!
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.
Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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09-13-2007, 03:22 PM
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#31
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
IIRC There should be 4 wires on the starter relay. It should be behind the DS kick panel where the hood release is. Should be a silver box with the 4 wires, 2 large gauge and 2 small gauge. Mine has a light color wire (maybe yellow) and a dark wire with a stripe. I extended the dark small gauge wire and put a ring on the end of it and put it under the screw for the seat belt indicator, solved my problem for the cranking.
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Just pulled that kick panel off. I dont have any relay behind there. Could it be in another spot?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-13-2007, 03:24 PM
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#32
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89CamaroRS
Just pulled that kick panel off. I dont have any relay behind there. Could it be in another spot?
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Maybe that is why it wont crank? I am not sure. That is where it was on both of my 3rd gens. You may just need to start tracing wires.
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09-13-2007, 03:29 PM
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#33
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonzoHansen
For the fuel pump IF the red wire to the relay is only hot on START, then you can use it to trigger the realy. All other wiring stays the same. Parts store relay in case of problem, and GM wiring.
I make the assumption that red wire is hot at crank only because it not it would keep the FP running all the time. I know there is a crank fuse.
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That red wire should not be connected to anything, should just be hanging with a protective cover under the relay, it is so you can manually prime the fuel pump. You apply power to it.... You wouldnt know it unless you have seen it before. The first picture is not great, or for the wrong year. We just need to look at my books, let me know when you get home and I will bring them over
Last edited by PolarBear; 09-13-2007 at 03:31 PM.
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09-13-2007, 03:39 PM
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#34
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
Maybe that is why it wont crank? I am not sure. That is where it was on both of my 3rd gens. You may just need to start tracing wires.
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I do have a black box behind some sort of sticky pad under that kick panel. It has 4 wires coming out of it but it's 3 large gauge and one small. 2 yellow and 1 green w/stripe large gauge and one green small gauge. Could that be it?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-13-2007, 03:43 PM
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#35
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
That red wire should not be connected to anything, should just be hanging with a protective cover under the relay, it is so you can manually prime the fuel pump. You apply power to it.... You wouldnt know it unless you have seen it before. The first picture is not great, or for the wrong year. We just need to look at my books, let me know when you get home and I will bring them over
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Actually, that makes some sense.
__________________
Vent Windows Forever!
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.
Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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09-13-2007, 04:16 PM
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#36
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89CamaroRS
I do have a black box behind some sort of sticky pad under that kick panel. It has 4 wires coming out of it but it's 3 large gauge and one small. 2 yellow and 1 green w/stripe large gauge and one green small gauge. Could that be it?
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Yes that is it, I forgot about the pad with the adhesive on it.
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09-13-2007, 06:14 PM
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#37
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
Yes that is it, I forgot about the pad with the adhesive on it.
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Kool, thx. Then i should be grounding the only small wire (dark green)?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-13-2007, 08:51 PM
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#38
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89CamaroRS
Kool, thx. Then i should be grounding the only small wire (dark green)?
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The colors of the wire in my Helms manual (I have the 91 manual) are different but I think that should be the one
Last edited by PolarBear; 09-13-2007 at 08:52 PM.
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09-15-2007, 09:40 PM
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#39
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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How is it going?
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09-16-2007, 01:37 PM
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#40
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
How is it going?
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Sorry, my band had shows all weekend. Just got a chance to ground that relay. No change with the one small gauge green wire grounded. i have 2 large gauge yellows and one large gauge green w/white stripe still. Should i try anything with them?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-16-2007, 09:38 PM
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#41
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Not sure, I wouldnt mess with anything else until you get a book with wiring diagrams for your year. Just let me make sure I got this correct, you havent done anything (other than listed here) to the harness switching from the V6 to the carb, right?
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09-16-2007, 10:34 PM
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#42
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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i removed the MAF sensor and a couple other sensors that the FI system used. Nothing that would affect cranking. And of course, this is a problem i had before the swap was even started so i doubt it has anything to do with it. Can anyone suggest a place to pick up a good diagram?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-17-2007, 10:17 AM
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#43
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Admin.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 20,149
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Maybe that starter relay is bad. Have you checked you have power into it? (yellow lead)
The yellow & the green/white wire should be big. The dk grn one is likely small gauge.
Do you have a test light?
If not, go down to the NAPA by the train station & get one.
__________________
Vent Windows Forever!
The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.
Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.
Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
Last edited by BonzoHansen; 09-17-2007 at 10:20 AM.
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09-17-2007, 11:03 AM
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#44
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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the large gauge dark green going to the pass key decoder module would be the vats signal correct? Should i try grounding that wire to bypass VATS?
and no, i dont have a test light. i'll grab one today.
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
Last edited by 89CamaroRS; 09-17-2007 at 11:05 AM.
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09-17-2007, 11:05 AM
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#45
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89CamaroRS
the large gauge dark green going to the pass key decoder module would be the vats signal correct? Should i try grounding that wire to bypass VATS?
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That was what I was trying to convey. Maybe you grounded the wrong wire?
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09-17-2007, 12:02 PM
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#46
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter
That was what I was trying to convey. Maybe you grounded the wrong wire?
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sorry, i had the striped green reversed with the dk green. I grounded the VATS wire already. Didn't help. I have the whole relay itself on order. I'll pick it up tomorrow and see what happens.
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-17-2007, 12:12 PM
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#47
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Could i safely bypass the relay just to see if that's the problem? Connect that yellow lead to the dk green that runs into the nss and try the key?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-17-2007, 12:16 PM
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#48
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89CamaroRS
Could i safely bypass the relay just to see if that's the problem? Connect that yellow lead to the dk green that runs into the nss and try the key?
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Yes you can try that. I think Bonzo said he would just remove the relay completely, he may have said in person when we were thinking of solutions to your issue.
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09-17-2007, 12:27 PM
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#49
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ewing, NJ
Posts: 164
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Just tried it once with each of the yellow wires connected to the green w/stripe. Didn't work. Does that eliminate the possibility of the relay being the problem then?
__________________
>2008 Corvette - Borla catback/K&N
>2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited 4.7L HO 4x4 black/grey
>1985 Honda Sabre V65 1100 - jetted/K&N
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09-17-2007, 12:33 PM
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#50
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Ebearnezer Scrooge/Power Member/Lips
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hamilton, Mercer county
Posts: 4,141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89CamaroRS
Just tried it once with each of the yellow wires connected to the green w/stripe. Didn't work. Does that eliminate the possibility of the relay being the problem then?
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Probably. I am thinking starter switch on the column now, but like Scott said you should really see if the yellow wire has voltage. Could be an open fusable link or something, that would be the black part of the schematic on the red wire.
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