2014 Z28

[Fast92RS]

Well the car is selling. At camaro5 forums there is atleast a handful of people who have ordered a z28. So there are people willing to buy a 75k Camaro. Hey I was willing to pay 55k for mine so whats another 20k lol.

[LTb1ow]

No one is arguing that they won't sell, its whether or not a 75k track ready car ever sees action past car cruises and bragging about what the owners manual claims.

[sweetbmxrider]

I think the argument is how jelly can one get over another's z28?

[LTb1ow]

Smuckers jelli, jelly.

[maroman88]

check out the 'Flowtie'

[sweetbmxrider]

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/z-2...tie-1536008995

That's pretty cool!

[Fast92RS]

The thing that get gets me is there are so many ss owners bashing the z28. There are so many of them saying they can build one for less lol. I like that article that was posted about cost.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Fast92RS

The thing that get gets me is there are so many ss owners bashing the z28. There are so many of them saying they can build one for less lol. I like that article that was posted about cost.

that is because they fall into the typical engine upgrade/HP trap. They forget all the other stuff involved. and they are jealous.

[Mike]

If I was in the position to buy a $75k new car it wouldn't be this. It would be something that could be used on a much more regular basis

If I was in the position to have an auto-x/road course car it woudnt be this.
I'll explain this part by saying I wouldn't want a 75k new car to ding and scar up, especially while it's still being paid for. I can most assuredly build a car for this duty that will out perform a stock z/28 and come in under that price tag.

Now if budget was zero consideration my opinions may be different. But unless every one of these cars goes to a rich guy that wants to race without wrenching, not many will be used for their intended purpose

[BonzoHansen]

i'd go 1le for a regular guy like me

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Mike

I can most assuredly build a car for this duty that will out perform a stock z/28 and come in under that price tag.

Unless you start with a de-valued used car, you can't. That's what the article I posted is saying.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Unless you start with a de-valued used car, you can't. That's what the article I posted is saying.

Of course I would. That is what I said. I don't want to worry about having a brand new car with brand new paint when I go off into the gravel or hit cones or any of the multitude of other things that can happen on a track.

For a dedicated track car a fifth gen in general wouldn't be in my top 10 starting platforms

Also, that link uses full sticker price on the ss and factors 15k in labor to make their point. Do all your own work and you can probably even do it with a fifth gen.

[BonzoHansen]

yeah, you are not building a used gen5 SS that will keep up with that car on an open track for that price. there is a reason the higher powered ZL1 can't even keep up.

I'm not saying the z28 is a great street car/DD. it is not. the recurring tire bill alone would probably cover a cheap daily driver. and I am sure most will not be used appropriately or to the fullest extent, but that is irrelevant. you could say that about most higher end performance cars. GM has no control over how a car is used.


open track seems where the gen5 really shines. what 10 cars do you pick in front of it?

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by Mike

Of course I would. That is what I said. I don't want to worry about having a brand new car with brand new paint when I go off into the gravel or hit cones or any of the multitude of other things that can happen on a track.

For a dedicated track car a fifth gen in general wouldn't be in my top 10 starting platforms

Also, that link uses full sticker price on the ss and factors 15k in labor to make their point. Do all your own work and you can probably even do it with a fifth gen.

Warranty.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by Mike

Also, that link uses full sticker price on the ss and factors 15k in labor to make their point. Do all your own work and you can probably even do it with a fifth gen.

Only factors in about $12,000 of unknown which includes more parts including carbon fiber parts and a special piece of rear glass, different shocks, trans and rear diff coolers. There are going to be other unknown parts in that price too New LS7 with all the fixins needed for the dry sump is about right on at $15,000 that they are saying and then the brakes are around $5,000 for the rotors alone so the labor really isn't anywhere near $12,000. You're still going to need to spend around that $30k just to keep up with a car that has a factory warrantee

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Only factors in about $12,000 of unknown which includes more parts including carbon fiber parts and a special piece of rear glass, different shocks, trans and rear diff coolers. There are going to be other unknown parts in that price too New LS7 with all the fixins needed for the dry sump is about right on at $15,000 that they are saying and then the brakes are around $5,000 for the rotors alone so the labor really isn't anywhere near $12,000. You're still going to need to spend around that $30k just to keep up with a car that has a factory warrantee

As with all factory cars, you get a tremendous discount by buying a complete car, rather than buying the pieces separate and building your own.

Keep this in mind that a lot of the parts they add are to band aid a platform to get it track ready. The Z28 may need those pricey brakes to get great stopping without overheating, but a lighter car wouldn't need them. Ditto for half the other parts on the car.

You could take a 2nd gen and put a lineup of similar GM and aftermarket parts and have something just as fast for a lot less, pro touring style without the add ons that blow the budget. Plus it would weigh a lot less, not need the LS7 (LS3 would be more than enough), it would be easier on tires, and it would look awesome. Ditto for the 4th and 3rd gen cars out there.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Paul Huryk

You could take a 2nd gen and put a lineup of similar GM and aftermarket parts and have something just as fast for a lot less, pro touring style without the add ons that blow the budget. Plus it would weigh a lot less, not need the LS7 (LS3 would be more than enough), it would be easier on tires, and it would look awesome. Ditto for the 4th and 3rd gen cars out there.

without major mods to that 2nd gen, no you can't. and that is as per the head suspension design engineer of that new z28 who also builds the some of the best track proven 69 camaros

hey, for every nickle you spend over 75k to build an old car that can do this can we upgrade the new z28 too? i'm thinking a simple cam & exhaust kit will add 120 hp w/o trying


BTW lift at 120 is no fun.

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

without major mods to that 2nd gen, no you can't. and that is as per the head suspension design engineer of that new z28 who also builds the some of the best track proven 69 camaros

hey, for every nickle you spend over 75k to build an old car that can do this can we upgrade the new z28 too? i'm thinking a simple cam & exhaust kit will add 120 hp w/o trying


BTW lift at 120 is no fun.

Yes, I am talking about major modifications - full suspension, brakes, drivetrain, rubber.

Let's take an example I was thinking of. A buddy has a disco 2nd gen (1980 Z28) he has been trying to sell me for $5,500 with new paint and a bum motor. Sell some of the good stuff you won't need and you are at $4k. A new 2014 Z28 is $75k plus tax ~ $80k total. I think that for $75k you could turn a 2nd gen with good paint into an equal of a new one while still going for the good parts and survive track use. Not going to be a show winner on the pro touring circuit, but it will haul butt on the track.

The good thing about the LS7 is the fact you can get 650hp out of it with just a few parts changed. But it is a heavy brick and you don't get the favorable power to weight that some of the older cars get by being a lot lighter.

Lift at 120 - don't know much about that as I'm a 3rd gen guy...

[BonzoHansen]

but that 2nd gen will not outrun that z28. that is what stielow is saying. bolt on stuff is not what I am talking about. even details like fuel tank location are a hindrance to old cars. and they are aerodynamic bricks. you will not have the handling or braking of the new car. impossible. you might think so, but no. not IRS, no ABS, no traction control, no giant composite brakes, no aerodynamic advantage.

i'd love to build exactly what you describe, it's not like I am against all that. but it will not outrun that z on a big track lap after lap after lap. even if i threw the whole DSE catalog at it, the best wilwood setup I can buy, a big HP MAST engine, a built t56 with a cooler, a full floater rear with a cooler and then all the other parts you need to live for a our of wide open a weekend. BTW I'm probably near $50,000 in parts now.

[NJSPEEDER]

I would just like to see one of these factory builds address two of the real problems of the late model pony cars, they are vastly overweight and there is no real DSG or otherwise modern flappy paddle gear box.

Weight slows acceleration, deminishes cornering, and increases stopping distances (yes, even with fancy carbon brakes). Insert commentary about timmay the his typical weight nazi self >>>here<<<

And seriously, why can I get a DSG in an f'ing VW Golf and not in an American performance car? Shift time is lap time and for the person that wants a bit of performance along with the show off qualities of a 75k Camaro a DSG or similar offers modern track performance when you want it and casual automatic driving when you are puttering around town or heading to the local cruise night.

-Tim

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

I would just like to see one of these factory builds address two of the real problems of the late model pony cars, they are vastly overweight and there is no real DSG or otherwise modern flappy paddle gear box.

Weight slows acceleration, deminishes cornering, and increases stopping distances (yes, even with fancy carbon brakes). Insert commentary about timmay the his typical weight nazi self >>>here<<<

And seriously, why can I get a DSG in an f'ing VW Golf and not in an American performance car? Shift time is lap time and for the person that wants a bit of performance along with the show off qualities of a 75k Camaro a DSG or similar offers modern track performance when you want it and casual automatic driving when you are puttering around town or heading to the local cruise night.

-Tim

Probably torque holding capacity vs. installation price.

[BonzoHansen]

i think you'll see the gen6 car smaller.

but you also have to consider how much the ever increasing crash standards are impacting weight

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

i think you'll see the gen6 car smaller.

but you also have to consider how much the ever increasing crash standards are impacting weight

And vice versa, quite frankly. F = ma.

[1320B4U]

God I hate dsg but that is what the world is coming to. For the purposes of attaining the best possible lap times as gm is trying to do I can understand offering (or lack-there-of) it but it just takes the driver out of driving imo.

[Paul Huryk]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

but that 2nd gen will not outrun that z28. that is what stielow is saying. bolt on stuff is not what I am talking about. even details like fuel tank location are a hindrance to old cars. and they are aerodynamic bricks. you will not have the handling or braking of the new car. impossible. you might think so, but no. not IRS, no ABS, no traction control, no giant composite brakes, no aerodynamic advantage.

They should be pretty close.

I have been following the progression of technology in automobiles and how it affects performance for a very long time - some things matter and others don't. As an example, Porsche loves to give minute details on how their new parts are 6% lighter, or 9% stronger or some other BS that makes zero difference.

ABS is a great system to have, but it cannot shorten stopping distances when cars are typically tire limited. You need to have more friction (wider, taller tires; downforce, or stickier compound) to stop quicker. I have not seen any test where the new Z28 is stopping in less than 100feet from 60mph. The big composite brakes are awesome, but they are necessary to keep a 3800lb+ track car from destroying iron rotors on the track, again not going to improve stopping distances; although they won't overheat and fade.

Handling is something that GM really did their homework on with the Z28. They made a floaty, heavy car into a world class handler. But you can equal 1.08g in many suspension packages for older musclecars now. My CMC customers are pulling over 1.4g on 275 width tires without any real downforce in their crapbox 3rd gens with stock style suspensions per the class rules.

Admitedly, 2nd gen aero is not awesome, but the 5th gens are pretty terrible - the 2014 z28 has a .46 CoD.

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

i'd love to build exactly what you describe, it's not like I am against all that. but it will not outrun that z on a big track lap after lap after lap. even if i threw the whole DSE catalog at it, the best wilwood setup I can buy, a big HP MAST engine, a built t56 with a cooler, a full floater rear with a cooler and then all the other parts you need to live for a our of wide open a weekend. BTW I'm probably near $50,000 in parts now.

You read my mind in terms of parts to fill up the $75k budget. You definitely want to go 100% on the suspension and rubber, but you don't have to go so buck wild on a lot of parts that won't make the car perform better. A 6 piston 14" brake kit on a 3300lb car will work just as well as the 15.5" composite kit on the 3800lb Z28. You can run a 500hp LS3 as you are 500lbs less. Coolers are easy to stick in to keep everything from overheating. T56 is a bolt in these days. A little creative aero work and you are good to go.