shopping list

[jims69camaro]

shopping list for the 406... i am open to suggestions for all items listed - this is by no means cast in stone. i would appreciate any suggestions, known combos, and an explanation why you would go with XX instead of YY. cost is not a consideration at this point. the budget for this project is 8k. of course, that is just the motor, for which i already have the block. i'm thinking about a race-built 700r-4 but i could be swayed into a 4l80e (with a stand alone computer). the backend will most likely be back-halved, so any rear that i consider will have to work with the suspension (just about any will do), and i am leaning toward a moser 9.

if you have a suggestion, please accompany with part number so i don't have to search hell and high water to find it

bottom end:
5-400-3750-5700, SBCÂ*ChevyÂ*400 ScatÂ*4130 SteelÂ*Crankshaft, $329.00
3-ICR6000, Forged 4130 I-beam connecting rods, $175.00
J1008-4145-5, 400 Small Block 18° Dome 4.155" X 3.875" X 6.000", $733.95
CLO-9-3100-5, cloyes double timing chain and gear set, 83.95
697-31167, SB-Chevy Oil Pan, 1955-79 Left Hand Dipstick, $319.99
(various #s) oil pan accessories including pump and windage tray, $138.95
top end:
(various #s) MSD ignition stuff, including coil, wires and distributor, $602.94
(various #s) fuel pump and regulator, $370.90
(various #s) carb and intake, $830
DRT-10221111, Dart Iron Eagle head 72cc, 2.02/1.60, $969.90

sub-total is in the neighborhood of 4500.

lots of stuff not listed - i need help completing the list. i know i need fasteners, and am leaning toward ARP's kit.

opinions accepted on selected products. if your opinion differs, please explain. this is a wish list that is forming quickly into an order. i have to get something together to send over to Speed Freaks Speed Shop so he can give me an estimate/bid. i might include some of the other smaller shops in the bid process, but i know the big boys will price themselves out of the running. time frame is somewhere in the next three months, assuming the court system and my case workers cooperate my lawyer is doing his best, but he is working with state employees and other attorneys. that is also contingent on when my surgery is performed and how quickly i can recover so i can see the IMEs again... tick tock... tick tock...

[The Fixer]

What's your ultimate goal for the car? Strip only, or a street car? If it's gonna be a street car, you can save yourself a bunch of money and not tub it. IMO, you shouldn't back-half it unless you have a gazillion hp and will only use the car as a serious track-only competition vehicle. Look at some of the Fastest Street Car/ Cheap Street competitors and stuff; they do it on a 10" tire and are in the 9's and 10's.

What compression ratio will that piston/head combo give you? That, along with what your primary use of the car will be, will determine your cam choice. Everything else looks peachy, but if it's gonna be a street car, go for a Richmond 6-speed and bang your own gears.



JMO, of course!

[Squirrel]

iirc jim isnt exactly able to drive a stick
(::waits for replys from the peanut gallery "and you can?" blah blah blah, cough:: )
are you gonna stay N/A?
spraying?
turbo?
charger?

[Slow Z]

Why buy new Dart IRON heads for nearly $1000 when you can buy better aluminum for a few bucks more? Seems like something you'd definately regret later on... I'd rather save up a little more and fork over $100-300 more for Dart Pro 1's, Canfield's, Trick Flows, or AFR's which not only flow better, they're aluminum.

J1008-4145-5, 400 Small Block 18° Dome 4.155" X 3.875" X 6.000" <--That part number is for JE Piston rings for a 4.145" bore motor. Secondly whats 18° dome? Domes are measured in CC's, however there is such a thing as 18° pistons, for 18° valve angled heads. Standard SBC's valve angles are 23° (like the Dart heads you had selected). You definately dont want 18° pistons.

Lastly, as asked above, whats your goal with this motor? What kinda cam and compression are you thinking about?

[jims69camaro]

this is my mid-life crisis car. this is the car i wish i had when i was 17, but would've killed myself if i had it then. this is the car that is just slightly north of silly but south of completely insane.

it's gonna be one of those door slammers that i will continue to maintain the registration on but doubt that it will ever see the street.

the compression ratio will be north of 10:1. i hadn't settled on a cam as of last night ( i was very droopy-eyed when i wrote that out ), but i do have a copy in an excel spreadsheet that i've been jotting prices down on. since the cam is the brains of the motor, i want it to be as intelligent as possible, and you can say X goes with that cam or that cam goes with Y. either or. the reason why new heads is beause they will recieve work. can't work heads that've already been worked. or something. i am starting out N/A, but you know that won't last for too long and i'll be reaching for a supercharger or Bank's twin turbo system or something.

i want the car ( after all, it will still have the doors - maybe not the glass ) to go south of 10s in the 1/4. while you can say a fourth gen with upgraded suspension on 10" tires can do 10s, you can't say that about the third gens. while the suspension in a third gen is light years ahead of, say, a 70s nova... it's not serious race, nor can you make it serious race without a complete overhaul. why overhaul when you can replace for about the same size wallet and get a bigger tire, to boot? i don't need the back seat, anyway, and any weight nazi worthy of the name yanks the back seat as the first thing to be removed...

like i said, nothing is set in stone, so fire away.

[jims69camaro]

no, it won't be a stick car. i could drive one in an emergency, but only in an emergency. nothing else i will own will have a stick (unfortunately).

[Squirrel]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

no, it won't be a stick car. i could drive one in an emergency, but only in an emergency. nothing else i will own will have a stick (unfortunately).

ferraris have this close paddle shift thing 8)

[foff667]

keep in mind iron is harder to work on and alot of places charge more to do iron then aluminum so you might be saving off the bat but then down the line it would catch up to you...and I'll reiterate...ITS ALUMINUM!!! and weighs 1/2 of that of iron meaning less weight meaning faster

[Slow Z]

If you wanna go well into the 10's on motor I think you gotta change pretty much your entire combo. 406, 12:1 (or more) compression, ported Dart Pro 1 230cc's (or similar), Solid roller cam with 260'ish duration @ 050, .600+ lift, Super Victor intake, 950+cfm carb (why not a Dominator?) ...Just to give ya an idea theres a million formulas that'd work...

Saying that 3rd gen f-body suspension isnt any good is far from true... The current world record holder on drag radials (high 7's) is a 3rd gen with stock style suspension. I'd say save your cash do some smart suspension upgrades and you'll be fine on stock style suspension with a 10-11.50" wide tire. Theres no reason you couldnt put the car on the back bumper with it.

[jims69camaro]

what kind of metal is that?

dart iron eagle aluminum, is that what your saying? or brodix track aluminum? or...?

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by Slow Z

If you wanna go well into the 10's on motor I think you gotta change pretty much your entire combo. 406, 12:1 (or more) compression, ported Dart Pro 1 230cc's (or similar), Solid roller cam with 260'ish duration @ 050, .600+ lift, Super Victor intake, 950+cfm carb (why not a Dominator?) ...Just to give ya an idea theres a million formulas that'd work...

Saying that 3rd gen f-body suspension isnt any good is far from true... The current world record holder on drag radials (high 7's) is a 3rd gen with stock style suspension. I'd say save your cash do some smart suspension upgrades and you'll be fine on stock style suspension with a 10-11.50" wide tire. Theres no reason you couldnt put the car on the back bumper with it.

406, 12:1 (or more) compression
i had planned on a stout compression ratio, but hadn't thought 12:1. of course, it's possible to do 14:1, but then i'd have to run 112 octane (or higher)

ported Dart Pro 1 230cc's (or similar)
dart makes a solid product, and i am fairly certain i will stay with them. the pro1s are a decent head, as well. just out of curiosity, would you go with their stock setup, or would you get bare heads and outfit them yourself? and if you would do it yourself, what would you stuf them with?

Solid roller cam with 260'ish duration @ 050, .600+ lift
i knew it was going to be solid roller. does a company make a cam that size, or would i have to have it custom ground? what roller rockers would you do it with? 1.7:1, or would 1.65:1 be enough? also, would a single profile cam work (same height intake/exhaust) or would it have to be a dual? and which would be bigger, the intake or exhaust?

Super Victor intake, 950+cfm carb (why not a Dominator?)
funny thing is, i was actually thinking about a high rise tunnel ram with twin 650s. the thing is, most people don't do the carb math. 700cfm is fine for the RPM i would be at most of the time, >5000, and anything bigger would most likely be a waste of cfm. if you see above, i only listed "carb and intake".

when you say "stock style suspension" what exactly are you saying? the torque arm with adjustable shocks and boxed control arms? this is what i consider a major overhaul, and the idea of a completely adjustable suspension (via the four-link) just wins out in my mind versus a "stock style suspension". i dunno. i'd like to see this car that you're talking about. i did a search and came up empty.

[Tru2Chevy]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

when you say "stock style suspension" what exactly are you saying? the torque arm with adjustable shocks and boxed control arms? this is what i consider a major overhaul, and the idea of a completely adjustable suspension (via the four-link) just wins out in my mind versus a "stock style suspension". i dunno. i'd like to see this car that you're talking about. i did a search and came up empty.

I haven't actually seen pics of this car, but I too have heard of it. I'm sure it's all aftermarket, but still retains a torque arm, LCAs, shocks and springs in standard location. I've seen plenty of 3rd gens go 9s and 10s with that setup.

- Justin

[Slow Z]

The guys name is Rick Head of Innovative Turbo

http://www.bmrfabrication.com says:

7.88 @ 180 mph!

Rick Head from Innovative Turbo just blew away the record for fastest torque arm car and fastest Drag Radial car. This is not a 4 link, back halved race car. It has a full interior, weighs 3465 lbs, and uses BMR off-the-shelf Xtreme Duty suspension products with Mickey Thompson Drag Radials. Congratulations Rick!

[jims69camaro]

damn...

[The Fixer]

Originally Posted by Slow Z

The guys name is Rick Head of Innovative Turbo

http://www.bmrfabrication.com says:

7.88 @ 180 mph!

Rick Head from Innovative Turbo just blew away the record for fastest torque arm car and fastest Drag Radial car. This is not a 4 link, back halved race car. It has a full interior, weighs 3465 lbs, and uses BMR off-the-shelf Xtreme Duty suspension products with Mickey Thompson Drag Radials. Congratulations Rick!

Holy Shnikes!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn, that thing is insanely quick!

[NJSPEEDER]

even in the edelbrock pro series there are a bunch of guys in different classes running mid 8's in stock suspeded 3rd and 4th gen f-bodies.
4links are old technology, dating back to teh 20's. the torque arm concept is hardly new(developed in teh 60's) but it is certainly a lot more advanced than the 4link.

later
tim

[jims69camaro]

don't ladder bars allow the same type of restriction as a torque arm? it's just the length of the torque arm, i believe, that allows it to restrict the forward motion of the twisting action involved with the rear. set me straight if i am wrong. the unique factor of the four link, and the reason i am interested in it, is the ability to adjust the instant center. not to mention the other adjustments that it allows. combined with ladder bars, i don't think it's even in the same league as a torque arm. not to mention that it allows far wider tires. not that i am going to be in the 2000 hp area anytime soon, it's just planning ahead.

while the technology may be old, if it works why fix it?

just my humble opinion, you understand...

[jims69camaro]

how'd we get stuck on the back end, anyway? i'm trying to build a motor, guys...

[Slow Z]

I could go on and on about whats better and whats not suspension wise, but thats not even the issue.

Anyway, I seriously think you should pretty much scrap your entire parts list. Its not that any parts you listed are bad, its just that they wont put you anywhere near your goal. If I was you, I'd get someone who knows their stuff. Not saying you dont, but when you wanna go 9's or 10's you cant just slap nice sounding parts together and hope they work. Theres a zillion tricks that go into it. I'd hate to spend $4500+ on a motor only to have it run 12's or blow up because I tried putting it all together without a lot of experience and know-how in the "9 second" world.

Keep in mind your talkin' 650+HP to run the numbers you want. If it was me, and I was rich, I'd take the extra easy way and buy a complete race motor from someone like Pat Musi or Scott Shafiroff ...mmm Shafiroff 434ci SBC making 600HP on pump gas, slap a nitrous fogger on it and maybe dip into the 8's. Of course, thats if you have $10k to spend on a motor, but atleast you know what you're getting and can pretty much drop it in and go knowing that if it fails you gotta warrenty. Of course, thats just one of the many ways you could go about it .... but if ya keep going the current route (with those selected parts) you'll come nowhere near your goal.

[jims69camaro]

specs on the dart aluminum 230 CNC:
PRO 1
23 Degree 230cc SBC Head


Material: 355T6 Alum alloy
Comb Chambers: 64cc & 72cc
Intake Valve Dia: 2.08�
Intake Port Volume: 230cc
Intake Port Dim: 2.180� x 1.210�
Int Port Location: Stock
Intake Gasket: Fel-Pro# 1206
Exh Valve Dia.: 1.600� or 1.625�
Exh Port Volume: 75cc
Exhaust Port Dim: 1.375� x 1.325� w
Exh Port Location: Stock location & bolt pattern
Exhaust Gasket: Fel-Pro# 1405
Flow, Intake: 308cfm @ .700� lift / 28�
Flow, Exhaust: 207cfm @ .700� lift / 28�
Head Bolts: Stock bolts can be used. We recommend ARP# 134-3601
Head Studs: ARP# 134-4001 or 234-4301 (12pt)
Manifold: Alum Single Plane Dart (opening - 1.100�x 2.000�) 5.500� tall
Milling: Min. 58cc = .060� (.0065� = 1cc) Flat Mill
Angle mill .125� safely / .200� = 49cc 1.5º (carefully)
Pistons: Most 23º aftermarket pistons.
Push Rod Length: Stock thru +.100� Should always measure (Stock length = 7.800�)
Push rod Guide Plate: Must use Comp Cam # 4808 (flat)
Retainers: Steel 10º (+.050� lock & retainer)
Spark Plug: Angle or straight, .750� reach, gasketed, Champion C59C / C59YC
Spring Pockets: 1.550� OD (.030� deeper max)
Springs: Our Assembly:
1.437D = 130# @ 1.800� / .620� max Comp 987
1.550D = 195# @ 1.900� / .690� max Comp 954
Stud Girdle: Use any standard girdle
Valve Length: 5.015� (+.100�) (std 4.890� w/1.437)
Valve Stem Dia: .3415� - 11/32�
Valve Train: Std SBC 3/8� or 7/16� stud mount
Valve Guides: 1/2� OD Int = Mag-bronze Exh = Phos-bronze (.002� press)
Valve Guide Length: 1.950�
Valve Guide Clearance: .0014� - .002� (with our .3415 dia. valve stem)
Valve Guide Spacing: 1.890� moved .030� from stock
Valve Seats: Hardened Ductile Iron, .006� press
Valve Seat Dim. Int - 2.160� x 1.810� x .350� Exh - 1.650� x 1.350� x .350�
Valve Seat Angles: Int = 32º - 45º - 60º - 70º Exh = 37º - 45º - radius
Torque: Head Bolts = 70 ft/lb; Rocker Studs = 45 ft/lb; Manifold = 35 ft/lb
Block Use: Any SBC Iron or Aluminum
Weight: 23 lbs

i like. my only question is which is better, straight or angled spark plug bungs?

[camaroracer1992]

wow jim ill sell you my motor and i can get a big block then!!
i have a bad ass worked 355 if you wanna know more email me

[jims69camaro]

Originally Posted by jims69camaro

shopping list for the 406... the budget for this project is 8k. of course, that is just the motor, for which i already have the block.

you're not the first person who waltzed into my thread looking to unload their block. but i already have the foundation, you see, way back in the first post... i bought a bare block for a reason: with dial calipers in hand and a good level eye, you can usually spot the bad things about a block. you won't be able to tell all about it, such as microfractures and stuff, but you can usually get a good idea what you're starting with.

thanks for the offer, but no thanks. hell, i've got a 350 in the '87 now that would probably make a decent stroker.

[jims69camaro]

p.s. the point, in case it's slipped by some of you, is to build a motor. i don't know why the drive is so strong, especially considering i could most likely get a 400 crate motor to produce the numbers i want, and it would come with a warranty, too.

i guess it's just something i have to do.