My take on the 6thgen....

[Blackbirdws6]

If federal regulations didn't require all the extra items in today's cars, they would put the cost in other places or offer the stripped down performance car you are referring to. The market has shown they can build an expensive Camaro and people will pay for it. Just business.

[BigAls87Z28]

Everyone has to play by the same rules.
The performance of the new SS is outstanding and it looks as if the six is no slouch either, again.

Price wise, new Camaro is right in line with Mustang and Challenger RT Scat Pack (regular RT isn't as powerful as GT or SS). Expensive, but no more than anything else.


As for "affordable" performance, There is still plenty there. 275hp turbocharged 4, 335hp V6 engines. There is a 40hp difference between the 3.6 liter V6 and the Challenger's 5.7 liter V8.

The Camaro, along with Mustang and every other car out there, continues to evolve and become stronger, better, and faster every generation because that is what we as fans and consumers demand it to be. It's the American way.

But when the new one comes out and you have to pay a little bit more for that? Well, that's the other side of the American way.


If anything, it's a bit more expensive because it's made in America, again.


I can't wait to drive one as it sounds like it drives like a 1LE turned to 11.

[sweetbmxrider]

I think Brian could weigh in with the best opinion on owning a highly modified 4th gen vs signing paperwork and taking a monthly payment with the hell cat. I wonder which he'll like better.....

[NastyEllEssWon]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

I think Brian could weigh in with the best opinion on owning a highly modified 4th gen vs signing paperwork and taking a monthly payment with the hell cat. I wonder which he'll like better.....

You're also talking about a $70,000 car compared to a 15 yearish old car that retailed for 30 grand. Of course he'll like it better.

Tim makes a good point as does the others who point out the features cater towards a different crowd. I fell in love with the F-bodies because they were an entry level performance car...but now they're so expensive that when you get into the price range for a Camaro you can start looking at better options than a Camaro.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by NastyEllEssWon

You're also talking about a $70,000 car compared to a 15 yearish old car that retailed for 30 grand. Of course he'll like it better.

Tim makes a good point as does the others who point out the features cater towards a different crowd. I fell in love with the F-bodies because they were an entry level performance car...but now they're so expensive that when you get into the price range for a Camaro you can start looking at better options than a Camaro.

Clearly they were never entry level looking at the prices. Maybe when they first came out but comparing a first gen to a sixth gen is beyond laughable. To the first point, the amount of money, time, etc put into the 4th gen to make it comparable yet not on the same level as the new car option furthers the point. Everyone seems to want the moon and the stars for pennies on a dollar. Its not going to happen.

[Blackbirdws6]

Folks have to remember there are different types of enthusiasts. Those who want a blank slate (cheaper base car, good engine, etc) and want to do what they wish with it (whether build it themselves or send it to a shop for a $10k+ upgrade). Then there is the group that would rather just spend some extra money, get the upgrades they would have eventually done and have a warranty to go with it. Then there is the crazier group who buys the top tier model and then proceeds to spend more on upgrades for the sake of being different or just want to have more. These segments can be broken down further but I think you get what I'm saying.

I agree pricing for cars has generally gotten out of hand but the market is supporting these types of vehicles and prices. You can spend just about $30k for a Civic these days.... That is what I found so appealing about the G8 GT ($29,995 base price and loaded it was around $33k). It offered everything I generally wanted in a good size package. You won't find a V8 rear wheel drive new car for under $30k. Maybe there is that amazing deal or that left over model on the lot but that's few and far between. It is also a fact that over 70% of new car loans are leases, not purchases. That tells you something. Manufacturers can increase the price which marginally increases the lease payment for customers. The car is now valued "higher" from an industry perspectiveand the consumer usually rationalizes that they can afford the new car since the incremental price difference in payment is justified. "My 5th gen was nice but man, this SS is such a better performer so it's def worth the extra couple hundred a month in payments."

I think we can all agree cars of today perform far better than those of the past and with added safety to boot. You expect the cost to be the same? Sure, brakes are brakes, shocks are shocks, etc but progress requires $. More performance in general means components now need an upgrade in durability and quality to last through the warranty period.

Bottom line, the car industry is a business and if the market supports a $47k SS Camaro, then GM will keep making them. If you want a more budget friendly performance vehicle, sorry but you will need to "settle" for a V6 Camaro. Most guys don't like the thought of that but keeping it in perspective, the new V6 Camaro will likely embarrass the older V8 models in many ways.

Personally, I went back and forth on spending the money on the Hellcat. Not to discredit the car or my decision, but deep down it is a high $20k car with a bunch of engine/drivetrain and cosmetic upgrades. Is that worth $30k more? I think you know my answer to that one. I considered upgrading the G8 to be a Hellcat killer but knowing me, I would have taken it a touch too far. I guarantee it would cost me at least $30k to produce a well sorted vehicle by a shop and then what am I left with? A highly modded G8 that would get pennies on the dollar for the upgrades should I decide to sell it. Like all modified cars, they will have their quirks and little issues. A new car can be the same but if that happens, I take it to the dealer and have them handle it. It's a very different vehicle than the TA but that was the point. The bird is the weekend toy where I can row the gears and makes lots of noise. The Hellcat is the car I can pack full of people, ride in comfort with all the bells and whistles while leaving it just as it is.

[NJSPEEDER]

Has nothing to do with what I want, its a business model. One that GM has been trending their image lines towards since before the bailout. Look at the feature lists and price ramps of the feature models and Caddy as a brand. They are moving away from having models in every catagory for every consumer and towards having simple introductory models and high margain aspirational models.


If it was what I would want there would be a way to order a Camaro with a V8, upgraded suspension, and manual tranmission without having to pay for a package that includes leather power seats, super upgraded stereo, or any of the other things that I have no interest in. Unfortunately none of the big three make any such models any more.

[Blackbirdws6]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

If it was what I would want there would be a way to order a Camaro with a V8, upgraded suspension, and manual tranmission without having to pay for a package that includes leather power seats, super upgraded stereo, or any of the other things that I have no interest in. Unfortunately none of the big three make any such models any more.

As you said, its a business model. It allows them to package items in bundles so folks have less of the ability to rationalize the individual prices, easier to build, reduces complexity, construct-ability, etc. The market for guys looking for what you want is shrinking so like any good business, you cater to the bigger market.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Has nothing to do with what I want, its a business model. One that GM has been trending their image lines towards since before the bailout. Look at the feature lists and price ramps of the feature models and Caddy as a brand. They are moving away from having models in every catagory for every consumer and towards having simple introductory models and high margain aspirational models.


If it was what I would want there would be a way to order a Camaro with a V8, upgraded suspension, and manual tranmission without having to pay for a package that includes leather power seats, super upgraded stereo, or any of the other things that I have no interest in. Unfortunately none of the big three make any such models any more.

No because that is a terrible business model. Most people buy cars as dd's as well. They like having seats that can be sat in to california, a super upgraded stereo that also has a back up cam and can adjust the car on the fly, and all of the other things you don't have an interest in the majority do. You would be the smallest minority wanting a stripped enthusiast pavement pounder. At that point, wouldn't you want to build the car yourself to your desires and standards?

[NJSPEEDER]

Yes, everyone wants and can afford the most expensive version of everything ever invented. Thats why there are so many millions of Ferrari's roaming the streets of NJ and Hyumdai's are such a rarity.

It's not an absurd notion to think that people aren't always interested in every possible feature available. Even looking back to 4th gens, lots of Z28's with cloth, manual adjust seats even though power leather was available.

Base models, across every range, outsell the fully equipped versions. Its not an industry secret. Its also not a business secret to have clearly defined tiers of products on offer. Some priced so that people can join and be comfortable with the brand and others that people will aspire to buy in the future.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Yes, everyone wants and can afford the most expensive version of everything ever invented. Thats why there are so many millions of Ferrari's roaming the streets of NJ and Hyumdai's are such a rarity.

It's not an absurd notion to think that people aren't always interested in every possible feature available. Even looking back to 4th gens, lots of Z28's with cloth, manual adjust seats even though power leather was available.

Base models, across every range, outsell the fully equipped versions. Its not an industry secret. Its also not a business secret to have clearly defined tiers of products on offer. Some priced so that people can join and be comfortable with the brand and others that people will aspire to buy in the future.

Hence the base offerings. Not every camaro is a fully optioned z28/ss/whatever. You are right its not an absurd notion to think a practical person wants a practical car. I'm sure car companies also realized a muscle/sports car is impractical and tiered the options as such. I don't get why there is such butt hurt over a highly desirable car that can perform and be comfortable/entertain/used daily/creature comforts that the majority market wants. You being the minority wanting what no one wants will never sway them. You can buy the z28 track car actually. Highly tested around the ring and proven to perform with no bull ****. You can also hop on craigslist and buy a budget beater to build to your liking.

[NJSPEEDER]

Can you get an SS/Z28 that only adds the V8 and suspension upgrades? The answer is no. Just because a more basic model exists doesn't mean that all the price points and desires of the entire market are met.

I don't see how it qualifies as butt hurt that I don't want to spend my own money on a laundry list of options I have no interest in. Its a business decision, GM decided which markets to go after and how. Doesn't mean every person on the planet fits into their plan.

And however fast anything goes around the ring with a professional driver isn't of any great consequence to me. Don't live near teh ring and not a professional driver. Also, once again, not interested in all of the mark up and extras included in the cost of the Z/28

I do find it comical that you seem to understand and acknowledge that less costly cars do sell but somehow say in the next breath that it is a minority opinion and no one would ever buy them. Which is it? Do les expensive models sell or should all base models be done away with in favor of completely loaded models?

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

Can you get an SS/Z28 that only adds the V8 and suspension upgrades? The answer is no. Just because a more basic model exists doesn't mean that all the price points and desires of the entire market are met.

I don't see how it qualifies as butt hurt that I don't want to spend my own money on a laundry list of options I have no interest in. Its a business decision, GM decided which markets to go after and how. Doesn't mean every person on the planet fits into their plan.

And however fast anything goes around the ring with a professional driver isn't of any great consequence to me. Don't live near teh ring and not a professional driver. Also, once again, not interested in all of the mark up and extras included in the cost of the Z/28

I do find it comical that you seem to understand and acknowledge that less costly cars do sell but somehow say in the next breath that it is a minority opinion and no one would ever buy them. Which is it? Do les expensive models sell or should all base models be done away with in favor of completely loaded models?

I can't find exact numbers but didn't the 5th gen outsell the mustang? That must speak of who wants what in the general market. You don't want a professionally tested product with proven performance? What do you want? To slap random parts together and hope it works? Or do you research the products you buy, that are tested to their limits by professionals, and have proven results? It is comical that less costly cars do sell. I would never want one. But some people like an eco box to rack up miles and drive a to b m-f with no ****s given other than getting there and getting home. Those same people don't give two ****s about a sports car. I can only imagine the numbers have been run and they know what makes sales happen. The same feathers were ruffled in the jeep world when jeep introduced the 4 door wrangler.....and they sell like fuggin crazy. They sell with premium interiors and power windows and automatics and hard tops! I drive my 2 door, manual everything every day and love every second of it. I am clearly the minority.

[BigAls87Z28]

What you consider a "suspension upgrade" might vary from person to person.

If you go right now and buy a regular 1SS, that would be plenty car for anyone out there and outperform anything under 40k.

Chevrolet has offered upgraded packages like their much admired magnetic suspension, larger caliper and two-piece rotor, and dual mode exhaust as an option. If you want these options, you can add them as you see fit and you do not need leather seating or an RS package to get them.

In all honesty, a 275hp turbo Camaro with 18" wheels would satisfy 70% of the buying public, and you could get it dolled up under 32k.

I just built one on Chevy's site. 1LT with the 2.0T, 6spd manual (standard) with RS package, upgraded cooling and 4 piston Brembos is under 30k.

275hp, 300ftlbs, manual trans, 3400lbs, 4 piston Brembo brakes, fancy LED accented lighting, and pure America for under 30k.

[WayFast84]

That actually sounds like an amazing bargain for under 30k . It will seem like a much better bargain once Cobb makes an accessport for it.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

I can't find exact numbers but didn't the 5th gen outsell the mustang? That must speak of who wants what in the general market. You don't want a professionally tested product with proven performance? What do you want? To slap random parts together and hope it works? Or do you research the products you buy, that are tested to their limits by professionals, and have proven results? It is comical that less costly cars do sell. I would never want one. But some people like an eco box to rack up miles and drive a to b m-f with no ****s given other than getting there and getting home. Those same people don't give two ****s about a sports car. I can only imagine the numbers have been run and they know what makes sales happen. The same feathers were ruffled in the jeep world when jeep introduced the 4 door wrangler.....and they sell like fuggin crazy. They sell with premium interiors and power windows and automatics and hard tops! I drive my 2 door, manual everything every day and love every second of it. I am clearly the minority.

So on the basis of what you are saying anything that sells must be the majority of the market and therefore nothing else should exist. So all you really want is whatever the most popular trim of the most popular car is, right?

We are talking about the value that cars deliver to individuals, to that ends I, as in me personally, see no value is being forced to pay for a pile of random and unrelated options just to get the one or two that I want. Its that simple. I'm not saying others don't want or are not willing to pay for all those things, I am saying I'm not interested and I know there are others that agree with me.

I don't know where you came up with the magical comparison of brand new car featured the way someone would like it and some one paycheck hero on craigslist, but its completely ridiculous. A V8 equipped car that lacks power leather seats or extra speakers or any other optional extra would in no way change the Camaro having been tested or driven around the ring.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

So on the basis of what you are saying anything that sells must be the majority of the market and therefore nothing else should exist. So all you really want is whatever the most popular trim of the most popular car is, right?

We are talking about the value that cars deliver to individuals, to that ends I, as in me personally, see no value is being forced to pay for a pile of random and unrelated options just to get the one or two that I want. Its that simple. I'm not saying others don't want or are not willing to pay for all those things, I am saying I'm not interested and I know there are others that agree with me.

I don't know where you came up with the magical comparison of brand new car featured the way someone would like it and some one paycheck hero on craigslist, but its completely ridiculous. A V8 equipped car that lacks power leather seats or extra speakers or any other optional extra would in no way change the Camaro having been tested or driven around the ring.

If you want to run a successful business, yes. Most individuals would equate more with better value unlike you. Most people would want all the nonsense you hate. Maybe you should try building the car and see what they actually "stick" you with. Seems you can option a car out with relative ease.

[NJSPEEDER]

I've built the Camaro plenty of times, can't get it formatted the way I want. The most power with the least non performacne related options isn't available. As nice as the turbo 4 sounds as a platform it doesn't appeal to me knowing a few hundred more HP can be optioned.

As far as business, there are a lot of ways to make money. Not all require on being all things for all people or making everyone take whatever is supposed to be popular. Across brands and across time there are piles of examples of car companies eliminating features from cars and in many cases people even paying more for the honor. You can look at the old MOPAR Neon ACR program or the recent lines of Lambo lightweights, history shows there is a market for building performance cars with less other stuff.

[sweetbmxrider]

Are you comparing a camaro to a lambo? I mean, the z28 is like what you are describing but you hate that too. Part of running a good business is maintaining image. Imagine showing off your brand new ss with a big motor and no stereo or ac and cloth seats. That would discourage the uninformed buyer. Now show the same car with hid headlights, 9 speaker stereo, and heated leather seats. Wow, the uninformed can't believe how many features it has!

[LTb1ow]

I keep trying to build the Camaro of my dreams to impress all the guys in the trailer park, but side pipes, muncie 5 speed and 3/4 race cam aren't being shown. I won't even get into the lack of double hump heads.

Its outlandish.

[Featherburner]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

I keep trying to build the Camaro of my dreams to impress all the guys in the trailer park, but side pipes, muncie 5 speed and 3/4 race cam aren't being shown. I won't even get into the lack of double hump heads.

Its outlandish.

There's your problem! The Muncie was a 4 speed.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Featherburner

There's your problem! The Muncie was a 4 speed.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Featherburner

There's your problem! The Muncie was a 4 speed.

Reverse is a speed. Right?

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Are you comparing a camaro to a lambo? I mean, the z28 is like what you are describing but you hate that too. Part of running a good business is maintaining image. Imagine showing off your brand new ss with a big motor and no stereo or ac and cloth seats. That would discourage the uninformed buyer. Now show the same car with hid headlights, 9 speaker stereo, and heated leather seats. Wow, the uninformed can't believe how many features it has!

To your point, the buying public is more sophisticated and more picky with what they want now. Even econoboxes are designed to feel luxurious. Deleting commonly desired features is a step backward.

There will probably be a 1LE model that's less optioned up but it will still include creature comforts that make the car appeal to a broader audience.

[V]

The only thing keeping me from getting a 2016 LT/RS is the fact that the back seat is just too small. Being that I can barely fit 1 child seat in the back of my 2014, there's no way in the future I could fit 2 comfortably. It really not practical for even a front seat passenger with the child carrier in place.

But with that said, I still like the new camaro very much. The 4cyl actually would be something I would consider. The current 3.6l v6 isn't that bad and actually does make the car fun enough for a daily driver. My old sky had a 2.0T and was quick(yes lighter i know) and my moms ATS sedan has the 2.0T and moves out pretty well. I wonder if the current 2.0T responds to mods just as well and the 2.0 LNF ecotech turbo motors did.

Last night I priced out a few combos of the camaro. A great base daily driver came in at like 28k and change. Thats a 2.0 LT with the RS package. My current '14 is an LS model and I really wanted the RS package but I wasn't willing to spend the extra money. In order to get the rs package, you needed at least an LT model(~3k more than a LS), and then another 1500 for the rs package. I ended up just buying used RS lights front and rear and installed them, along with a spoiler and body color roof molding overlays. So for 2016, I like that they did away with the pointless LS package.

Since the fact the car is simply a 2-door, that is what will prevent me from getting one anytime soon. Instead I'll be looking at some used performance 4 door sedans when my lease is up, like a 09+ CTS-V. But I do wish I could get a 6th gen camaro.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

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