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Old 01-29-2020, 08:38 AM   #126
IROCZman15
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Yea. There is a red plastic cover for the bus bar but not one for the jump post, I’m not sure if I’ll leave it exposed, probably not, I’ll find a way to cover it and still look good

Regarding the 3 row radiators, people have said that the middle row doesn’t do “that” much, it just radiate heat to the outer two rows. Lots of the 3rd gen guys are doing great with the oem replacement small 2 row style and they make decent power.

I was absolutely going to run a complete and separate set of wires and relays for each fan. Each one will be independent Sorry if I mid-spoke earlier. Each fan will run its kwn set of wires from the bus bar and it’s own relay

As for the links, polar bear and I chatted about it and decided fusible links would be cleaner install than blade fuses But I think as I mentioned above I need to use 14 gage link wire with a 10 gauge power wire? Not 10 gauge fusible link with 10 gauge wire right?

As for the Evans, its a lot more expensive indeed so I’ve been on the fence about that. Lower psi in the cooling system, reduced boil over, and such were some
Of the good points. Price and in-store availability were the negatives. However. Evans is NHRA approved for use, so if I ever did a NHRA event, I would be ok. At autocross and events like optima Usca and UMI autocross they never checked it but I highly doubt they would , so regarding track events... I think Evans would be legal and safe ?
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:48 AM   #127
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yes, link is lighter gauge than the circuit it protects. problem with fuses on fan circuits is the initial voltage spike on start up. fast blow fuses don't always like that.
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The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.

Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.

Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop

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Old 01-29-2020, 10:21 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonzoHansen View Post
yes, link is lighter gauge than the circuit it protects. problem with fuses on fan circuits is the initial voltage spike on start up. fast blow fuses don't always like that.
Yes I think it sounds like you agree with me that a fusible link wire is better than a blade if you set up for the fans. Is that what I’m reading correctly. Basically PolarBear and I discussed that the fuse would have a potential to blow up on the initial start up of a fan motor since it’s a high amp draw at that first time it kicks on and then it levels out and lowers down the amperage. However a fusible link would not blow, like a blade fuse would ... so that’s why we were leaning towards using the fusible link to set up.

I know that from the factory there’s a single 20 amp fan fuse in the fuse block holder under the dash. This would mean that a 20 amp or 30 amp inline fuse probably be sufficient since I am Using the oem fans, but I’d rather use a fusible link setup. Scott is that what you are in agreement on? And Adam does this also make sense to you, or I mistaken in how I am describing this?

The other option I discussed with PolarBear was the small automatic resetting circuit breakers like the ones that are underneath the dash in the metal cases on the fuse block(like for power windows etc). however, Since I already have the 14 gauge fusible link wire and it would make for a clean set up that I could easily inspect almost every time I open the hood I was thinking I would just do two fusible links coming off of the bus bar going to the two relays which go to the two fans. Thoughts ?
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Old 01-29-2020, 10:28 AM   #129
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Disregard my comment, my mind was reading it as fused section of 14 not a fusible link of 14.

That being said, having a fuse to replace is much easier. My car is setup with relay per fan and each fan has its own fuse.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:42 PM   #130
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DAVE, what side of the circuit is that fan fuse on?

EDIT: the fuse under the dash is on the trigger side, the main power is protected by a link. That is what I would expect from GM.
(1987 Camaro 5.7L diagram)
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File Type: jpg 87Camaro57.jpg (70.3 KB, 5 views)
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The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.

Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.

Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop

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Old 01-29-2020, 03:31 PM   #131
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From 80s and early 90s automakers, sure. It’s 2020, I think fusible links are out of style Use whatever you do prefer to work with
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:43 PM   #132
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yes, Scott that is correct. the 20 amp fuse in the oem fuse box is on the trigger side of the relay. that wire joined in with all those ECM wires that came through the firewall on the passenger side, many wires. as part of my engine bay cleanup, that entire wiring harness on the passenger side is gone and permanently removed. The remaining OEM wiring coming through the firewall is just going to be from the C100 connector behind the brake booster. So, thats where i will have to find a wire that is hot-in-run to tap into for my switched ignition source at #86 on the relay. I was thinking of using the power wire (red?) that goes to the Unused windshield wiper's washer motor (I no longer have a tank for washer fluid or any need for it)


I confirmed that the Holley Sniper setup uses NEGATIVE ground triggers.. so it appears to be different than the other Holley software you are using Matt. The negative ground trigger (output) wires from the sniper are green and blue. one will go to #85 on each relay.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the OEM style dual fans for 3rd gens are NOT 2 speeds. they are just on/off right? not low/high/off ?
- If that is the case, I will have the sniper turn on one fan at lower temps than the second fan....and hopefully I never get hot enough to need Fan #2 to even come on at all!


I sketched out a diagram to help me make better sense of all this.




this video here also helped me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKXhwZWTVK4
along with Scott and Polar Bear in text messages.

here are the old relays, and you can see why I didnt want to reuse them; deciding it was better to start fresh with new weatherproof relays, wiring, fusible links, and only reusing the fans, fan brackets, and short length of oem wire that will connect to the fans.
- it bothers me to see how poor condition that wiring was, and it was hidden from my normal view under hood. no more of that messy hidden stuff going forward



so, let me know if my diagram/plan needs any corrections.
also, I will be making final decisions on cooling system components on Friday, so any other suggestions/advice is helpful.
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Old 01-29-2020, 04:38 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider View Post
From 80s and early 90s automakers, sure. Itís 2020, I think fusible links are out of style Use whatever you do prefer to work with
well, its an 87, so i was saying what i expected in that.... lol


OEs are also moving to PWM stuff. I run one too. A fuse works better in that situation since there is no initial hit. I think the maxi fuses used now might be better to take that initial hit, although I am not sure about that.
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The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.

Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.

Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:05 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonzoHansen View Post
well, its an 87, so i was saying what i expected in that.... lol
OEs are also moving to PWM stuff. I run one too. A fuse works better in that situation since there is no initial hit. I think the maxi fuses used now might be better to take that initial hit, although I am not sure about that.
Once I get my car running again, first project will be running a PWM fan controller. So much nicer than a 100% on , or 0% off.

But, to minimize that without having PWM, you can utilize the three relay setup 4th gens got. Lil more complicated but I believe it lessons the hard on/off cycling.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:07 AM   #135
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If i were using relays I'd do 3 as well.

My DCC controller has been great.
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The looser the waistband, the deeper the quicksand. Or so I have read.

Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold. I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors.

Hey everybody, it's good to have you on the Baba-too-da-ba-too-ba-ba-buh-doo-ga-ga-bop-a-dop
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:30 PM   #136
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I suggested the series/parallel configuration with 3 relays, but he doesn't want the complication of the wiring
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:42 PM   #137
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I do understand thebenefit of the 3 relay method. I think I will try to run it the most basic way I can, and then if I have cooling/fan/load problems, I can add a relay and do the 3 relay setup. Still doing my best to learn wiring/electronics, so basic and simple is the realm I am trying to stay in. (for now)

ordering radiator, water pump, t stat housing, and evans tomorrow.
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Old 02-04-2020, 05:59 PM   #138
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Update:

got the power steering box back from www.powersteering.com where it got a full rebuild with various new parts. also was blasted and painted. it will certainly tighten up my steering even more, so thats good for autocross and street driving. cost $340 shipped.






worked on some wiring and covered a bunch of wires in new black split-loom. I know there are other options for wire-covering and fancier stuff; however I have not seen anything that I particularly like or want on my car. I do prefer the look and ease of using the oem style plastic split loom, so that's that.






I also spent a good amount of time cleaning most of the bolts, nuts, washers, and hardware on a wire wheel so that when I bolt everything up, the threads are clean.








pulled off the old power steering pump, water pump pulley, crank pulley, brackets, etc. cleaned them up with a wire wheel. Primer and painted. If I had the extra spending money I would get a bunch of new fancy billet pulleys and components; however I do not. I can always add them later on. I am pretty sure my OEM style alternator upper bracket won't work anymore. So I am either going to have to find a new bracket for it, or change over to a Mid-mount setup. I kinda think the mid mount setup would look better, because on the driver's side, the Power steering pump is mid-mounted. therefore mounting the alternator mid-mount on the passenger side would be more visually appealing? All I would need then is a mid-mount bracket setup, and then measure for a different belt? thoughts??




this existing alternator:



I ordered a new water pump. The proForm one fit my budget and has the increased flow. it is "polished" and had good reviews.






I went with a Champion 2 row (1" wide rows) polished aluminum radiator. Many people I have talked to with higher horsepower thirdgens are using this radiator with good success. The engine builder recommended a 160 degree thermostat, so I got a 160 stat from Meziere. PolarBear was a big help with getting me to order the proper 40 amp relays, sockets, and wire terminals.. for the two oem fans that will be controlled by the holley sniper.




I have yet to order a coolant expansion tank/overflow tank, as I want to see how the radiator and my wiring sits before ordering a ill-fitting tank. Also, have not ordered a t-stat housing, since possibly mine can be reused? I will be buying new hoses to replace my old ones; however, I don't think lower coolant hoses come with the "spring" inside them anymore.. the metal coil that keeps the hose from collapsing on itself? I would like to use that I would think?











oh, yea,


...




and....






the engine is built, broken-in, dyno tested, and has been shipped to my house as of yesterday!!!


On the dyno it cranked out 531 horsepower and 513 foot pounds of torque N/A !!!




AWESOME










I need to order a few more things in the next few days, and I am sure a few more after that.

Upcoming order includes:

- fuel line heat shielding
- fuel line fittings to get my current -8 and -6 lines to mate up to the sniper
- a oil dipstick, specific one for Dart SHP block LOK-ED-5001 ??
- a nicer disptick for my 700R4 to match the oil dipstick
- oil valvoline VR1 15-40 I guess about 7-8 quarts, some for spare ?
- valve cover breathers exposed element or shielded with metal??
- air filter and air filter housing
- a different throttle cable? I have not done research on this yet..
- a different TV (kickdown) cable ? probably?
- replacement header gaskets for my dyno don's headers. the ones I currently have are Earls # 29DD3B. I don't see why these wont work on the Dart heads?


I am NOT doing anything to hookup the nitrous to this engine for a while. I'll need to get everything else sorted out and get myself comfortable with 531hp/513 tq before even thinking of sending a 200 shot at it.


I think I plan on using my current torque converter too for now. it is an Edge racing 9" converter with 2800 rpm stall. thoughts ? Once the build sheet for the engine gets here with the cam specs, I might call the converter company and see what they recommend I do.


so, thats where I am at currently. I have run out of tasks to work on until the engine actaully arrives, and once it is mounted in the car, I can work on running wiring, fuel lines, exhaust, transmission mounting, etc.




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Old 02-04-2020, 06:41 PM   #139
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I am not sure on the motor but if it huffs a little it may be wise to run a remote puke tank to keep your motor clean.

Also, first thought is a 2800 converter is going to be wayyyyy to small behind that motor. Def call them prior to installing

Car is looking great, def going to be a show car engine bay
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Old 02-04-2020, 07:52 PM   #140
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Looks great. Im down for engine install and efi hookup. Keep me posted.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:29 AM   #141
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On the converter: It all depends on what it is. If it's a 'budget' 9" converter (Non-billet) I wouldn't install it. Will probably be too tight (as LTB1ow says) and if it's a non-billet one will probably balloon and take out your transmission. I wouldn't skimp on the converter if you're this far along; saving a couple of bucks here might cost you a lot more later on.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:34 AM   #142
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And you have to decide if you want a good na converter or a good nitrous converter....
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:44 PM   #143
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Cool, thanks fellas. the converter is an Edge Racing converter that I bought in 2016 and was spec'd out by Dana at ProBuilt Automatics. He and Andre at Edge Racing Converters assembled it to be a 2800 rpm stall 9.5 diameter. It is called a street edge lock up converter. it is not billet, but it has anti-ballooning plates built in, because they knew I was using nitrous often. I wouldn't really call it a "budget" converter because it cost about $600, but I am no expert; hence why I ask many questions!

I called Andre the day before I took delivery of the engine and discussed this with him. He said he needed to look at the Cam specs in order to decide if my converter will work for this year of N/A no-nitrous use, or if it will be too tight. As of today, I have the cam specs (see my new thread, link below) and I tried to call him later in the afternoon but he was gone for the day. He did mention, that I could send in my current converter to have it reconfigured for about $250 (plus shipping each way) Or I could buy a brand new one. I will find out more when I chat with him, hopefully tomorrow.

so, I would still like to keep this particular thread going for a little longer, since I still have some more non-engine "vehicle" topics to ask about, discuss, and post photos of...
.. however I decided to make a whole separate thread regarding getting the actual engine installed and running. it can be found here: http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthr...008#post954008

- sorry for dual threads, I figured since it might be better to keep these topics separated, hope that is ok.

one photo for here, but more can be found at the new thread, and even more can be found at this photo album link which i will add to as I take more photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iroczm...57713006026381





The gameplan is to install the engine on saturday, and then work on the plumbing, wiring, components. I am developing a LOT of questions in these areas, so feel free to read/help/yell at me at my other thread: http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthr...008#post954008
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