A couple general questions... - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

Masonite · 04-07-2009, 07:05 PM

Hopefully this is the proper forum for these questions. If not, my apologies. I have a couple of questions (some may seem a bit "noobish") that hopefully someone may shed some light on to benefit myself and others' knowledge of F-bodies, and just cars in general.

1) I hear about 8-, 9-, 10-, 12-bolt rears, but I have no idea what those actually are. Can anyone explain what they are, and the differences?

2) Is there any difference between a Limited Slip Differential, and Posi-traction?

3) What is the most effective after-market security system I could purchase? I was thinking some kind of kill-switch to the battery would work, but I'd like others opinions on which works the best.

4) I'm looking for a shift knob for a manual transmission. Gardocki was kind enough to give me some websites like jegs and summitracing, but their selection is a bit limited, specifically in the L-shaped range (tall or short). Any suggestions?

5) I would like to "rust-proof" the underbody of my car. Does anyone have details on this procedure; is it easy enough for a do-it-yourself project, or should I have an auto body specialist take care of it?

6) In general, where is the best place (online and off) to get parts for my F-body; aftermarket or "original replacement parts"?

7) How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

8) What would be the best performance increase, in terms of cost-to-power ratios (the cheapest method for HP or Torque boost)? This can be specifically for my 5.0 HO TBI manual, or just in general.
*edit* The cheapest method besides putting stickers, decals, and coffee cans on the vehicle--as well as these methods work for hondas and other rice, I'm not much of a fan.

That's all I have for now. I'm sure more will pop into my head as soon as I hit the "submit new thread" button. lol

Thanks in advance, everyone!

GP99GT · 04-07-2009, 07:14 PM

answer to 2 = no, positraction = chevys name for it, ford is trac-lok, etc etc

answer to 3 = if you really want to be effective, separate switches, one to kill ignition (not battery) and one to kill the fuel pump...hidden very well of course.

answer to 7 = lots of wood

answer to 8 = basic mods, intake, headers, exhaust.

BonzoHansen · 04-07-2009, 07:47 PM

1) I hear about 8-, 9-, 10-, 12-bolt rears, but I have no idea what those actually are. Can anyone explain what they are, and the differences?

Off the top of my head...in Chevy-ese, the "bolt" count usually refers to the #of bolts in the ring gear.

Never heard of an 8-bolt.

9-bolt - The 9 bolt was built by Borg Warner in Australian. Used in 3rd gens. Considered stronger than the more common 10-bolt rear found in those cars. Includes positive axle retention (no clips). Although I am not sure if the ring has 9 bolts or just the cover. Matters not. Parts are scarce, IIRC biggest issue is the "posi" units wear out.

10 bolt - there are a number of rears that fall under this category. All are "c-clip" design, which can become a weak point especially as axles wear. When these break the axle comes out, hilarity & suffering ensue.

F-Body related there are 3 10-bolts:
8.2" - found in 1st gens, not known for its strength.
8.5" - found in 2nd gens, can be built fairly strong, stronger than most people realize. This rear has been in a lot of vehicles in some form or another.
7.625" - found in 3rd and 4th gen f-bodies, although the housings are not the same. This same basic rear is found in g-bodies and s-10 trucks and is a weakling. I always refer to it as a 7.5" rear. Or a POS.

12-bolt - found in 1st gens and a few 2nd gens (1970 only) - considered very strong and can be built to handle high HP. You can now get aftermarket versions to fit all f-bodies

Other f-body rears of note:

Dana 44 - IIRC there was a service package (parts dept only) replacement rear for 3rd gens based on the dana 44 design. I think Justin has one, they are probably stronger than 9-bolts. I've never seen one. I think it includes positive axle retention (no clips)

Dana 60 - a super strong & heavy aftermarket rear based on the Dana 60 design. Includes positive axle retention (no clips)

Ford 9" - a super strong & heavy aftermarket rear based on the Ford 9" design. Includes positive axle retention (no clips)

6) In general, where is the best place (online and off) to get parts for my F-body; aftermarket or "original replacement parts"?

that answer varies wildly based on the parts & user requirement.

8) What would be the best performance increase, in terms of cost-to-power ratios (the cheapest method for HP or Torque boost)? This can be specifically for my 5.0 HO TBI manual, or just in general.
I agree with Matt - the basics & rear gears.

Edit: Also suspension. Subframe connectors, better rear control arms, better springs/shocks & good tires make a big difference in those cars.

Masonite · 04-07-2009, 07:53 PM

thank you for answering most of these questions so far, and for BonzoHansen's detailed explanations!

enRo · 04-07-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masonite

8) What would be the best performance increase, in terms of cost-to-power ratios (the cheapest method for HP or Torque boost)? This can be specifically for my 5.0 HO TBI manual, or just in general.

Off the top of my head...
Look into getting a throttle body spacer. Do a google search on it. Not a significant source of HP but somehow gives better air intake (I believe the way the air gets sucked in, sorta like a vortex).

Get some gears. 3.73's may work well.

Basic bolt on mods like exhaust, headers, intake, etc.

LOTS AND LOTS of weight reduction... that particular engine is not a significant source of power, so to make up for the lack of power, remove some dead weight with accessories that you dont plan on using, to get that car lugging a little faster.

sweetbmxrider · 04-07-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

5) I would like to "rust-proof" the underbody of my car. Does anyone have details on this procedure; is it easy enough for a do-it-yourself project, or should I have an auto body specialist take care of it?

look into POR15. Napa carries it. http://www.por15.com/
ubg did it on here http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35696

BonzoHansen · 04-07-2009, 08:32 PM

Problem with POR is you have to have bare metal, and it can't be smooth, the POR needs something to bite into. It will peel in sheets, I have seen it. And used a lot of it.

sweetbmxrider · 04-07-2009, 08:48 PM

yeah i was going to mention that you need to etch the metal if there isn't rust. i thought he would read into it a lot before attempting anything.

Masonite · 04-07-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

yeah i was going to mention that you need to etch the metal if there isn't rust. i thought he would read into it a lot before attempting anything.

yeah, i like to read things about 5 times over before attempting something for the first time. thanks for this!

Tru2Chevy · 04-07-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Other f-body rears of note:

Dana 44 - IIRC there was a service package (parts dept only) replacement rear for 3rd gens based on the dana 44 design. I think Justin has one, they are probably stronger than 9-bolts. I've never seen one. I think it includes positive axle retention (no clips)

Dana 44 is quite a bit stronger than the stock 3rd gen 7.5" / 7.625" 10 bolt and the less common 9 bolt Borg Warner rear. It's got a 8.75" ring gear and no C-clips to worry about. Also a huge aftermarket support. And yes, I have one

- Justin

WildBillyT · 04-08-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Problem with POR is you have to have bare metal, and it can't be smooth, the POR needs something to bite into. It will peel in sheets, I have seen it. And used a lot of it.

Absolutely.

It is also important to note that factory rust prevention is a lot better than it used to be. Basic paint or undercoating can be enough in a lot of cases.

Masonite · 04-08-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Absolutely.

It is also important to note that factory rust prevention is a lot better than it used to be. Basic paint or undercoating can be enough in a lot of cases.

I have taken that into consideration, but it's for an '85, so I'm not sure exactly how well the factory rust prevention may have been then. I'd rather just be safe and have it done anyway, just in case.

WildBillyT · 04-08-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masonite

I have taken that into consideration, but it's for an '85, so I'm not sure exactly how well the factory rust prevention may have been then. I'd rather just be safe and have it done anyway, just in case.

When you do your oil changes, tire rotations etc poke around under your car and check for rust. If you start to find spots then you can clean up the areas with a wire brush/wire wheel, etch it with some type of etching solution (like Restomotive's Metal-Ready) and coat it with POR.

Pampered-Z · 04-08-2009, 03:47 PM

Just to add my .02 to what already has been posted:

1) I hear about 8-, 9-, 10-, 12-bolt rears, but I have no idea what those actually are. Can anyone explain what they are, and the differences?

Rears are referred to in two ways, the bolts on the ring gear, or the diameter of the ring gear. Normally GMs are by bolt, Ford's are by diameter. We'll leave the Dodges out of this, other then the big gun the Dana 60!

Basically, the larger the gear, the more material it has and there is more room in the differential casing for larger stronger supporting parts such as the posi, axles, etc. The bigger you go, the more weight you add to the car, as well as the HP needed to turn the parts. cost can also go up!

A 3rd or 4th gen come with a "10 bolt" rear, this late model 10 bolt came out in the late 70s and contains 7.5" ring gear (when a 350 engine made under 200HP). Pre 1977 "10 bolts" had 8.2" ring gears. and there were HD 10 bolts with 8.5" gears as well. The "12 bolt" has 8.9" gears. Ford uses a 8.8" ring, and the HD unit has 9" gears, (so the name 9" rear). The Dana 60 has 9.75" ring gear.

2) Is there any difference between a Limited Slip Differential, and Posi-traction?
There is no difference in what a LSD, Posi, suregrip ect does, it applies power to both rear wheels. Differentials basically come in 3 styles:

A) Single or Open rear - Only applies power to one wheel (typically the passenger side). Uses less of the engine's HP to turn. Good for low power engines, better fuel economy. Not good if that one wheel looses traction!

B) Posi, LSD - Uses a mechanical clutch within the rear to allow power to be applied to both wheels when going in a straight line. If one wheel was to loose traction the other tire is still applied the same amount of power. When the car turns, the pressure applied releases the clutch. (outward wheel travels a further distance then the inner wheel). Vendors set this release point and for special applications set the release point higher. (bit off subject, but this is why if your spare tire is not as tall you want it to swap tires to put it on the front. long distance driving will cause the posi's clutch to burn up!)

C) Locker or Spool - A solid or constant connection to apply power to both wheels. This is very useful for straight line racing, pulling or towing. Lockers/spools are not optimum for street cars, turning results in a tire needing to skip or skid during a turn, making them unsafe and place allot of stress on the other parts of the drive train such as the axles and rear gears.

3) What is the most effective after-market security system I could purchase? I was thinking some kind of kill-switch to the battery would work, but I'd like others opinions on which works the best.

Most type of visible security is useful, (blinking light on the dash, window sticker can save you a broken window), a kill switch is always good, something you can hide yet still access easily. One idea is to kill the signal to the fuel pump, should a thief get the car he can only travel a short distance, keeping the car from getting stolen, while getting him a few blocks away from you. I’ve seen people build them from their cigarette lighter, so they simply push it to complete the circuit.

An aftermarket system that has sound and motion detection will give you the most protection.

But the bottom line is that if they want your car, they’ll get it!

4) I'm looking for a shift knob for a manual transmission. Gardocki was kind enough to give me some websites like jegs and summitracing, but their selection is a bit limited, specifically in the L-shaped range (tall or short). Any suggestions?

What are you looking for?

http://www.flameball.com/HomePage.htm
http://www.koolknobs.com/

5) I would like to "rust-proof" the underbody of my car. Does anyone have details on this procedure; is it easy enough for a do-it-yourself project, or should I have an auto body specialist take care of it?

I use Eastwood’s products, and I’ve very happy with the results. I basically clean up the frame and underbody and applied their frame paint. I did my 99 GMC and after 9 years and almost 200,000 miles it still looked good. The new truck will be getting the same treatment soon!

6) In general, where is the best place (online and off) to get parts for my F-body; aftermarket or "original replacement parts"?

No one vendor has the best price on everything. You really need to shop for what you want. For aftermarket parts, often our site sponsors will give you some type of deal.

For original parts, gmpartsdirect.com is a good place if you know the part number.

7) How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

That really depends on the size of the woodchuck.

8) What would be the best performance increase, in terms of cost-to-power ratios (the cheapest method for HP or Torque boost)? This can be specifically for my 5.0 HO TBI manual, or just in general.
*edit* The cheapest method besides putting stickers, decals, and coffee cans on the vehicle--as well as these methods work for hondas and other rice, I'm not much of a fan.

The engine is a pump, it needs to breath. The more efficiently you can move air the better the performance, so start with the intake and exhaust. Headers are probably the best bang-for-the-buck mod. If your talking performance and not just HP, gears probably are about equal to headers.

Knipps · 04-08-2009, 03:50 PM

I'm surprised no one has said engine swap to (enter preferred sbc here) for #8

Masonite · 04-08-2009, 05:37 PM

Pampered-Z, awesome answers, thanks so much for taking all that time to write those out. Thanks to everyone else, as well. Feel free to keep posting any information you might have. I hope this is benefiting more than just myself!

BonzoHansen · 04-08-2009, 05:59 PM

Sliderule, for the record all 2nd gens got 8.5" 10-bolts, except some 1970s that got 12 bolts. I don't know how long the 8.2" continued on in Novas and other cars, but I know the Novas changed over to 8.5" at some time because people get them out of 68-74 Novas (and its rebadged cousins) for 1st gens. I'll see if I can find that info.

Also:

1st Gen (67-69) Rear Measurements:
*Total width is 60 inches
*Spring perches are 42 1/2 inches center to center.

2nd Gen (70-81) Rear Measurements:
*Total width for the rear end is 61 inches.
*The pinion is offset 1/2inch to the right from center.
*The spring perches are 45 1/4 center to center and have about 5 to 6 degrees of angle down in the front with the pinion level.

Anyone have the measurements on 3rd & 4th gen rears handy?

Pampered-Z · 04-09-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Sliderule, for the record all 2nd gens got 8.5" 10-bolts, except some 1970s that got 12 bolts. I don't know how long the 8.2" continued on in Novas and other cars, but I know the Novas changed over to 8.5" at some time because people get them out of 68-74 Novas (and its rebadged cousins) for 1st gens. I'll see if I can find that info.

Also:

1st Gen (67-69) Rear Measurements:
*Total width is 60 inches
*Spring perches are 42 1/2 inches center to center.

2nd Gen (70-81) Rear Measurements:
*Total width for the rear end is 61 inches.
*The pinion is offset 1/2inch to the right from center.
*The spring perches are 45 1/4 center to center and have about 5 to 6 degrees of angle down in the front with the pinion level.

Anyone have the measurements on 3rd & 4th gen rears handy?

Thanks Scott! I know GM did different combinations, wasn't some of it based on car wieght and engine? Back in the 70s I was a pure MOPAR guy, All we did was look for 440s with the Dana 60s! Ahhh,,, the good old days...........