collector reg. 'offical letter'

[BonzoHansen]

mtnhopper1, nice reply. That is what I was looking for, how the legal profession would read it.

Originally Posted by scooter

Not to be a D*** but if you go by numbers posted in the few links here your 77 had more in production numbers than my 91 did. And if you go back to the beginning this is for cars that "DO NOT QUALIFY FOR ANTIQUE".

You're always a d***. LOL That is why I didn't use my 77 as an example. It failed the historic part.

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Exactly. The first two generations had significantly more production then the last two. I think that's why they say "current remaining number" so you can kind of qualify by that.

:P

Only 14,349 1977 (or 1977 1/2 for those who like to say stupid 1/2 years) Z28s were made, and only 5,114 were 4-speed cars. So my Z may be more rare then most Z28s. That is where the 'real' numbers end.

Hell, if I could get that down by color I bet the number is well south of 500. Only 6.3% of 77 Camaros were code 75 Orange. If I use that #, I probably have 1 of 321 or so cars. Add AC to that and the number would probably drop to below 235, although I bet it would be less since many ordered the Z sans AC. Rear window defrosted would extrapolate down to less then 87. But GM doesn't offer that kind of actual breakdown.

And that is what I meant by getting down to color/options package details.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Only 14,349 1977 (or 1977 1/2 for those who like to say stupid 1/2 years) Z28s were made, and only 5,114 were 4-speed cars. So my Z may be more rare then most Z28s. That is where the 'real' numbers end.

I see what you are saying BUT I dont think the DMV gives two ****s about the fact your car is a "Z" or not. To them it is a Camaro and that is it but those would be good arguments if they were to factor the options in, and by that I would have a fairly "rare" car too. I think EVERYONE would explain how their car is rare....

Originally Posted by mtnhopper1

In any event, I would argue that the purpose of the statute was to allow enthusiasts who own vehicles that they consider collectable to own and operate those vehicles on a limited basis without having to meet the criteria required for daily drivers. Here's the trade off: the owner doesn't have to get the car inspected, but he can't use it as a daily driver. The proofs are required to show that driver's reason for owning the car is legitimately for its collectable value and not as its daily driver. The car club letter lends some legitimacy to the driver's claim that the car actually HAS collectable value because collectable value is show by the fact that people collect them. We collect them - they're collectable.

I think this is an excellent point and thus is all we should really have to justify to the DMV, they should have no right to define what is or is not collectable! Have you seen all the crap people sell on eBay?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by scooter

I see what you are saying BUT I dont think the DMV gives two ****s about the fact your car is a "Z" or not. To them it is a Camaro and that is it but those would be good arguments if they were to factor the options in, and by that I would have a fairly "rare" car too. I think EVERYONE would explain how their car is rare....

That's kinda what I was thinking. They don't give a rat's *** about rare options like a Z54 deluxe interior and underhood sound deadening. It's a 77 Camaro to them. They aren't going to care about many options or midyear changes. If they did I could register my GTP as collector since it's a '97 GTP with no traction control, a hood prop rod and a post antenna.

[BonzoHansen]

But I think it does matter in the way you present it. Plus with mine, there was a whole marketing campaign and such around it. I could supply Z28 specific ads. I'd sure throw it in the letter to DMV.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

But I think it does matter in the way you present it. Plus with mine, there was a whole marketing campaign and such around it. I could supply Z28 specific ads. I'd sure throw it in the letter to DMV.

I think the age of your car will make it qualify. All else aside I think that this is strictly to crack down on people with modern daily drivers that try to register them as collector cars.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

But I think it does matter in the way you present it. Plus with mine, there was a whole marketing campaign and such around it. I could supply Z28 specific ads. I'd sure throw it in the letter to DMV.

You do have a point, One could say the same for other F-body's too. I suppose people with Firebirds could get the info from PHS and include the info in that. Sorry Camaro owners.....

[LS1Hawk]

It sounds to me that when the MVC says "rare" they mean a limited production number than normal, and that the car was intended to be limited from the onset of production. However, they need to do define that. At what point is a car not "rare" to them? Is there a cut off number? I know for sure my car is rare. Only 1,501 were made in '02. I guess if there were ever a problem, I could get a letter from SLP attesting to the build of the car.

[NightRydaSS]

maybe someone can clear this up for me:

1) how the hell can someone "expliot" the system? You can only drive 3K miles a yr, thats it. Clean and cut. Unless someone has 5 "collector vehicles" that they drive each 3K miles a yr. Even that, you still have to abide by the rules and regulations of your insurance company, and i highly doubt that there are enough ppl doing that to warrant them (NJ) to be such *** plungers.

2) Like i said before; SS's and WS6's truly are numbered, wouldn't that meet their "limited number" requirement?

3) they stated you could register a car as a "collector car" as long as it doesn't fall into the "historic" or "Hot Rod" class...is there a "Hot Rod" registration?

4) that sheet from the DMV says it can't be "altered" or a "hi-rise vehicle". is that just for trucks with major lift's? Like altered to be hi-rise? or are they also saying that your car can't have anything on it other then OEM parts too?

this state sucks ***. They constantly bend you over for everything from taxes to your car. I want to register my car as a "collector" so that i can have unlimited mods and not have it inspected AND so that if i put $20K into it and some tool smashes into me, i get that money back and not just BB value. The car will be driven less then 3K miles a yr for christ sake. Example; ever since i bought my beater, i have put about 25 miles on my car in 2 1/2 weeks.

Please keep this up-to-date; I won't be able to get colector insurance for another 2 yrs anyway (im only 23), but the mods i do after next yrs re-inspection date will depend on weather i can even get that kind of insurance now.

[LS1Hawk]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

I think the age of your car will make it qualify. All else aside I think that this is strictly to crack down on people with modern daily drivers that try to register them as collector cars.

I agree.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

I think the age of your car will make it qualify. All else aside I think that this is strictly to crack down on people with modern daily drivers that try to register them as collector cars.

Absolutely.

For this conversation, I am ignoring the age thing. If I had to meet these requirements, how would I approach it. The 1977 Z28 is a sub model, backed by specific print & media ads (I can supply both). Known GM production numbers of only 5114 4-speed cars (can be documented by a number of sources). My cowl tag proves the Z28 heritage (f-u phony 1st gens). It was limited run, only going from March 77-July 77.

That is tighter then my 67RS would be (again, ignoring the age thing).

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

I think the age of your car will make it qualify. All else aside I think that this is strictly to crack down on people with modern daily drivers that try to register them as collector cars.

Only 3k miles a yr. So unless you never drive, this would be worthless.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by LS1Hawk

I know for sure my car is rare. Only 1,501 were made in '02. I guess if there were ever a problem, I could get a letter from SLP attesting to the build of the car.

Get any documents you can. They will be your friend forever.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NightRydaSS

Only 3k miles a yr. So unless you never drive, this would be worthless.

It's intended to be a collector's registration- for cars that have value in the collector car market. It's NOT intended to be a partial use registration. The "no inspection" was meant to allow collector cars that were built in accordance with different emissions or safety standards than we have today to be able to be driven on the street- NOT to allow a car to have modern safety or emissions features disabled while maintaining legality.

And you think NJ is bad? I know a guy in PA who had to register himself as an automobile manufacturer in order to keep from having to install 5mph bumpers on his $100,000 Daytona coupe. Now THAT sucks.

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

It's intended to be a collector's registration- for cars that have value in the collector car market. It's NOT intended to be a partial use registration. The "no inspection" was meant to allow collector cars that were built in accordance with different emissions or safety standards than we have today to be able to be driven on the street- NOT to allow a car to have modern safety or emissions features disabled while maintaining legality.

And you think NJ is bad? I know a guy in PA who had to register himself as an automobile manufacturer in order to keep from having to install 5mph bumpers on his $100,000 Daytona coupe. Now THAT sucks.

oh...so THAT's the "exploitation" thay're refering to????

[mtnhopper1]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

That's kinda what I was thinking. They don't give a rat's *** about rare options like a Z54 deluxe interior and underhood sound deadening. It's a 77 Camaro to them. They aren't going to care about many options or midyear changes. If they did I could register my GTP as collector since it's a '97 GTP with no traction control, a hood prop rod and a post antenna.

I think they might care about options if you could convincingly say that the options make the car worth preserving. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think the IROC package was an option in 1987 (as opposed to a separate model). I think it would be pretty easy to back up the assertion that an IROC is collectable. Has anyone gotten "collector" registration in a third-gen Z or Iroc?

The point I'm trying to make is that particular models are collectable merely because they are that certain model which is no longer produced, regardless of which options they had. Such a car would have a "monetary value in excess of similar make and model vehicles with routine manufacture and distribution patterns" because it is of a body style that is no longer produced.

I'm really not sure if the NJ DMV would buy this argument, but I think it is pretty much the only one that you can make. I'm pretty sure that the intention of the statute is to prevent people from registering plane jane camaros that are less than 25 years old as collectable. It seems to me that the NJ legislature has decided that so-called "vehicles with routine manufacture and distribution patterns" (like my 1967 327/powerglide camaro) are not collectable until they are at least 25 years old, when they become "historical."

Just because this seems to be the case doesn't mean we can't try to find a loophole. The statute is poorly drafted. I think there is enough "wiggle room" in the language to register a 1991 Camaro RS as a collector vehicle. I think this is especially true because the people who are determining whether the proofs are sufficient are not lawyers, and probably have never read the statute. They are looking to see whether the vehicle seems collectable. If we write them a convincing letter, and attach loads of statistical charts, blah, blah, as exhibits, we might be able to convince them that a 1991 RS deserves the same treatment as a 1991 1LE (or even a Z28, for that matter).

Regardless of what the statute was intended to do, I think it can be done. In all honesty, these cars ARE collectable, and if the statute wasn't intended to allow plain jane camaros to be afforded collector status, than the statute is wrong. The legislators should've drafted a tighter statute.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by mtnhopper1

Just because this seems to be the case doesn't mean we can't try to find a loophole. The statute is poorly drafted. I think there is enough "wiggle room" in the language to register a 1991 Camaro RS as a collector vehicle. I think this is especially true because the people who are determining whether the proofs are sufficient are not lawyers, and probably have never read the statute. They are looking to see whether the vehicle seems collectable. If we write them a convincing letter, and attach loads of statistical charts, blah, blah, as exhibits, we might be able to convince them that a 1991 RS deserves the same treatment as a 1991 1LE (or even a Z28, for that matter).

Regardless of what the statute was intended to do, I think it can be done. In all honesty, these cars ARE collectable, and if the statute wasn't intended to allow plain jane camaros to be afforded collector status, than the statute is wrong. The legislators should've drafted a tighter statute.

I think this might be an easy thing to do, especially if Tim hears back from SEMA. A LOT of laws were poorly written and loopholes can be found, sort of like stopping at a stop sign.....

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by mtnhopper1

if the statute wasn't intended to allow plain jane camaros to be afforded collector status, than the statute is wrong. The legislators should've drafted a tighter statute.

I agree 100%. I think that's why they are backpedaling now. Way back when I got collector's sticker #000007 (or #000014 or something like that) all they did was check proof of insurance and handed it over. No voucher, no letter, no odometer check. Nothing but proof of insurance. They hosed that up, so they added the odometer check and voucher system. Now that isn't enough so they are adding new rules again...

[LS1Hawk]

I'm interested to hear what SEMA has to say as well. Hopefully with their muscle they'll be able to do something about it.

I kinda saw this coming when I got my last voucher and went to get the new sticker. The MVC and inspection station told me two completely different things about collector's reg. So I can understand the state wanting to make this more defined and avoid registering cars that aren't really collectible. But to make you show all these proofs now just to get a triangle sticker for your car is a little ridiculous.

[ar0ck]

All this fancy talk but it doesn't help me the little guy trying to get my modern 1995 Z28 that i care dearly about on the road legally with collectors registration...

Mike & my car are not our daily drivers, They are our pleasure vehicle because I'm noticing the word modern daily driver tossed around a lot.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by ar0ck

Mike & my car are not our daily drivers, They are our pleasure vehicle because I'm noticing the word modern daily driver tossed around a lot.

But this isn't pleasure vehicle registration. It's collector car registration.

This should help you try to put together the package to send them proving it is a collectible.

[ar0ck]

I'm using the collectors car & pleasure vehicle term here loosely.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by ar0ck

I'm using the collectors car & pleasure vehicle term here loosely.

I know, but when you are in contact with them, you can't.

[maroman88]

Originally Posted by ar0ck

All this fancy talk but it doesn't help me the little guy trying to get my modern 1995 Z28 that i care dearly about on the road legally with collectors registration...

Mike & my car are not our daily drivers, They are our pleasure vehicle because I'm noticing the word modern daily driver tossed around a lot.

exactly, i drive it maybe once a week if its nice out, and its either to a show or around the block to the GF's house lol. it doesnt have any emisions crap left, cuz it failed emisions last time i took it anyway. ive put 20k miles on it in the last 5 years and it was a daily driver for atleast one year in there.

my current regular inspection sticker doesnt expire until febuary but the care wont be out till maybe april, so i guess ive got some time

[mtnhopper1]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I know, but when you are in contact with them, you can't.

Right on. You get special registration because it's collectable, not because you don't use it all the time. The task is to convince them that ANY 1995 Z such as yours is collectable simply becasue it is what it is.

What I mean is that for you to say "It's a pleasure vehicle" is irrelevant to convincing them it is collectable. The fact that it is not your daily driver merely shows that you are willing to comply with the limitations of collector registration. We need to convince them that it is collectable because it is a 1995 Z. I think the fact that it is a Z28 should be enough for it to be considered "limited production."

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

But this isn't pleasure vehicle registration. It's collector car registration.

This should help you try to put together the package to send them proving it is a collectible.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.