Machine Shop nightmare - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

zraffz · 09-22-2012, 10:27 PM

(Skip to bold font if you don't feel like reading)
So I recently decided to trade motors with my older brother, gave him a rebuilt 350 with a roller cam and vortec heads (freshly broken in & fully dressed) and agreed to remove his motor/install new motor and buy him headers for a freshly machined 350, .030" with a scat 383 assembly (came balanced from scat), splayed mains, an aggressive flat tappet cam, roller rockers and a set of TFS 23* 195cc heads (all brand new)

The shop assembled his short block and upon throwing on the flex plate I noticed the motor was a nightmare to turn. I pulled the timing chain off and noticed the cam was literally seized in place. Pulling it out just a hair I could see the front cam bearing was damaged. Still wouldn't rotate. Pulled the main caps and the front two main bearings were scored - along with the crank; just enough to catch a finger nail. From there I noticed piston skirts rubbing on the cylinder walls and a ton of metal shavings EVERYWHERE (in the cam bearings, lifter holes, oil galleys.... pretty much everywhere but in the main & rod bearings).

Further investigation revealed this... (You can see the counter weights have been ground down significantly in a few spots and the metal shavings on the edge of the main journal)

The block appears to have been clearanced the slightest bit under the cam area and around the bottoms of the cylinders. My rod caps were ground along with the counter weights.. I know damn well he didn't rebalance this. Is it salvageable?! Is their any way scat had done this to balance the crank?

LTb1ow · 09-22-2012, 10:42 PM

Why would you assemble a motor without checking balance?

zraffz · 09-22-2012, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Why would you assemble a motor without checking balance?

I didn't assemble it. The rotating assembly came balanced with a sheet from SCAT. The machine shop put it all together for him cause I didn't have the time.

I'm sorry I didn't except any of this. The thing wouldn't freaking turn, cam wouldn't turn with the cam gear on it. Metal shavings everywhere. Skirts rubbing the cylinder walls. Bearings grooved. Looks like a monkey took a grinder to the crank. Only reason I'd ever go back to that machine shop is to beat him in the head with the crank.

LTb1ow · 09-22-2012, 10:50 PM

Pull it apart and dump it at a respectable machine shop to see what can be salvaged.

MyFirstZ · 09-22-2012, 10:54 PM

Picture looks like a half ass attempt at knife edging the crank.

Best bet is run it to another machine shop. I'm not to sure how much they can remove from a crank but it may not pay since you may keep finding more and more issues.

Good luck!

The crank journals are my biggest concern they can be turned and polished but not sure how much. A crank can be rebalanced/drilled and knife edged on the counter weights

zraffz · 09-22-2012, 10:55 PM

It's stripped down to bare block. I am almost certain the rods can be salvaged and the piston skirts have a few light scratches. Crank defiantly has some issues though.
I spun the motor maybe one full rotation. Can't imagine if this thing managed to fire up what would have happened.

Guess Monday I'll have to take a trip to the reputable machine shop and not the a-hole hillbilly that's 15 minutes from my house.

zraffz · 09-22-2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFirstZ

Picture looks like a half ass attempt at knife edging the crank.

Thanks. That crossed my mind when I was taking it apart but I can't imagine why it was only done to 2 of the counter weights. I don't think SCAT would do such poor work if they had done it.

MyFirstZ · 09-22-2012, 11:43 PM

That is odd. I don't think a company with a reputation like scat would do work like that.

L695speed · 09-22-2012, 11:55 PM

I hope that isn't Bob's work is it? That looks messed up. Here is a thought though. Did he get the wrong bearings put on? If it was not rotating fairly freely then its possible the bearings were too tight. Another thought...did they lube the bearings?

zraffz · 09-22-2012, 11:55 PM

I don't understand why he would cut it like that. Nothing would have contacted the block. He obviously ground the hell out of something after it all was bolted in place judging by the amount of metal shavings.

zraffz · 09-22-2012, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L695speed

I hope that isn't Bob's work is it? That looks messed up. Here is a thought though. Did he get the wrong bearings put on? If it was not rotating fairly freely then its possible the bearings were too tight. Another thought...did they lube the bearings?

Regardless of right or wrong bearings, he is responsible for measuring all clearances. He was given $500 just to assemble it (not including any grinding to clearance).
I want to say the crank isn't true to spec judging by the slight hairline scratches in the bearings/journals already. That's just another thing he should have checked before assembly.

The #2 and I want to say #5 pistons appear to be what was causing the friction. I haven't checked the bore but it appears his honing isn't correct in those cylinders. The rings completely compress into the pistons and cause the skirts to rub the cylinder walls.

L695speed · 09-23-2012, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraffz

Regardless of right or wrong bearings, he is responsible for measuring all clearances. He was given $500 just to assemble it (not including any grinding to clearance).
I want to say the crank isn't true to spec judging by the slight hairline scratches in the bearings/journals already. That's just another thing he should have checked before assembly.

The #2 and I want to say #5 pistons appear to be what was causing the friction. I haven't checked the bore but it appears his honing isn't correct in those cylinders. The rings completely compress into the pistons and cause the skirts to rub the cylinder walls.

Something must be going on then because when he checked my crank and bores in the 88's TPI 350 he said all was good and had all the pistons pressed. Sure enough when I assembled it, it was exactly what he said it should be with the plastigauge and I was able to easily turn that motor even with the timing chain on. Not defending his work there because you're right something is definitely off, but I'm wondering if he might be rushing jobs..... Still he should have at least called up and said something was wrong if he found something before proceeding. Providing he is the one at fault. Unless he had someone else put it together........ I sometimes see another guy in the shop helping him.

stoney2677 · 09-23-2012, 09:48 AM

Rogers Speed Shop in cranford is very good and honest. Union county may be farther than you wanted to travel but...

zraffz · 09-23-2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L695speed

Something must be going on then because when he checked my crank and bores in the 88's TPI 350 he said all was good and had all the pistons pressed. Sure enough when I assembled it, it was exactly what he said it should be with the plastigauge and I was able to easily turn that motor even with the timing chain on. Not defending his work there because you're right something is definitely off, but I'm wondering if he might be rushing jobs..... Still he should have at least called up and said something was wrong if he found something before proceeding. Providing he is the one at fault. Unless he had someone else put it together........ I sometimes see another guy in the shop helping him.

This motor was actually at his shop twice. He had it for 2-3 months. The first time we got it back I took a lifter out and saw metal shavings along with pieces of rag on the cam. He was supposed to take it back apart and clean it... doesn't look like he did that.

Last night I made a few phone calls and heard nothing but bad things about him. I will say he didn't do a bad job cleaning my heads but even when he tanked my block it came out terrible.

Looks like I'll be taking a trip to Five Star after work tomorrow. Might as well let them clean up the crank, rebalance, change cam bearings, maybe do the final hone and tank it again.

L695speed · 09-23-2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraffz

This motor was actually at his shop twice. He had it for 2-3 months. The first time we got it back I took a lifter out and saw metal shavings along with pieces of rag on the cam. He was supposed to take it back apart and clean it... doesn't look like he did that.

Last night I made a few phone calls and heard nothing but bad things about him. I will say he didn't do a bad job cleaning my heads but even when he tanked my block it came out terrible.

Looks like I'll be taking a trip to Five Star after work tomorrow. Might as well let them clean up the crank, rebalance, change cam bearings, maybe do the final hone and tank it again.

Alright, let me know what you think of Five Star. I will be needing a machine shop to at least do cam bearings, freeze plugs, and bore out the block for my motor when I get that far. Maybe clearance the block if I need to have that done. Sucks when you have to drive a ways just for machine work. I had to clean up the block he did for me, but I attributed that to the serious amount of **** that was in that particular block. I'm wondering if he tanked yours after mine. If he did then its possible he didn't change the fluid out.

The other guy who is local did the head work on my brother's MR2. Did a very nice job and gave it back to us in a heavy duty plastic wrap. Guy's name is Mark and he runs A-1 Crankshaft. But we've only used him for the one time. I hear he builds serious motors, down side is people complain about his turnaround time. My brother botched the reassembly so I can't confirm anything beyond he did a real nice job with the head rebuild. I would go to him but when I build a motor, I don't want to be waiting forever with the parts to assemble it while he does the machine work. I guess I'll have to talk to him again once I get enough parts to justify starting the build.

zraffz · 09-23-2012, 12:49 PM

My block was disgusting after he tanked it. I pressure washed it but black crap is still showing up in my manifold/coolant. He did a descent job on my cam bearings & freeze plugs on one motor. However this one, he destroyed one of the cam bearings when he installed it (it is actually cracked). I'm terrified to pull the freeze plugs to see what comes out.

L695speed · 09-23-2012, 01:23 PM

my oil was jet black after 60 miles on the one block he did. But I expected to have dirty as hell oil for the first 1000 at least. But yeah I did have to clean up residue on the block surfaces, coolant seems ok so far. Have over 500 on the bottom end. But regardless, it sounds like it was a good move for me to do the assembly myself. Not sure I would trust the stroker build to him anymore if he did all that **** to that one motor and screwed it up.

zraffz · 09-23-2012, 03:40 PM

Same issues.
He was fair the first time he took the motor back to clean it up, although he didn't do a good job. I feel like he just cleaned off what was visible. Anyway, I am praying he is willing to work with me on this. All I ask of him is to hot tank the block again, remeasure the cylinders to make sure they aren't out of shape and buy/install cam bearings.
At this point I'd rather do the final hone, send the rotating assembly somewhere to get balanced/crank polished and assemble it myself.

LTb1ow · 09-23-2012, 05:07 PM

Wait, why in the world would you even bother taking it back to that shop? Clearly they can't do decent work, so if you really want compensation, have them pay another shop or something.

zraffz · 09-23-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Wait, why in the world would you even bother taking it back to that shop? Clearly they can't do decent work, so if you really want compensation, have them pay another shop or something.

Don't think I have any chance of that happening. I would kick him the work he can't possibly mess up unless I have any chance of recourse/suing him.

LTb1ow · 09-23-2012, 05:12 PM

IDK man, to me its not worth the potential second round of headaches from shoddy work.

Whats the phrase.. fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me?

Featherburner · 09-23-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraffz

Same issues.
He was fair the first time he took the motor back to clean it up, although he didn't do a good job. I feel like he just cleaned off what was visible. Anyway, I am praying he is willing to work with me on this. All I ask of him is to hot tank the block again, remeasure the cylinders to make sure they aren't out of shape and buy/install cam bearings.
At this point I'd rather do the final hone, send the rotating assembly somewhere to get balanced/crank polished and assemble it myself.

Sounds like you need to invest in these, and learn how to use them!http://www.powerhouseproducts.com/ph...ore-gauge.html
http://www.powerhouseproducts.com/ph...-0-6-0001.html
http://www.powerhouseproducts.com/ph...cator-0-1.html

zraffz · 09-23-2012, 06:22 PM

I couldn't agree more lol. I'll need to purchase those in the near future. Currently I can hone my block on my own with the help of a friend (works at a shop that builds strictly drag cars' drivetrains).

coolmanvette75 · 09-23-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraffz

I couldn't agree more lol. I'll need to purchase those in the near future. Currently I can hone my block on my own with the help of a friend (works at a shop that builds strictly drag cars' drivetrains).

And why dont you have them build your motor then? Seems like they know what they are doing...

MyFirstZ · 09-23-2012, 07:58 PM

Sometimes you wanna keep your friends seperate from doing business.