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Old 12-04-2020, 07:11 AM   #226
LTb1ow
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To muddy the waters some more.

I believe you said you want to spray a 200 shot, correct? Which, lets assume will net you 15-20mph on top end.

So your 115mph trap goes to ~135mph, which coupled with a 3.91 won't work with a 6000rpm WOT. Really won't work with 3.73s either.

Now, if you do 3.73s with a 28in tire, you can trap 135 at a 6000 WOT.

Food for thought.
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Old 12-04-2020, 08:39 AM   #227
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Very good point
I really invite any and all comments and criticism and advice so feel free to keep it coming, anybody

So, you make sense matt, I see what you are saying. I think possibly eventually I’d try a 200 shot on a single progressive stage. I had the engine built for a 200 shot, so that’s about as high as I’d ever go, and I never wanted this car to be a nitrous hog, but more-so just be able to spray enough on the button to give me an upper hand in a serious race or to possibly spray my way into the high 10s from time to time. Not every weekend on a bracket race schedule.... so with that thought in mind, I’ve envisioned that I would simply just use my existing nitrous solenoids for a while. These are the fuel
And nitrous solenoids that came with my TPI kit and they flow up to a 150-175 shot. It would save me a few hundred$ in having to not buy new solenoids and also keep the shot more “safe” for the rings and such. Thoughts on a 150(or even 100) shot with those 3.91 and both a 26” and 28” tire ?

135 mph does seem like a lot of speed, Id be thrilled to get close to 130 if ever. I worry about the hood flying off (still debating on installing the hood pins, cosmetically it doesn’t jive with me yet).

Peak horsepower was at 6,000 rpms on the engine dyno. I'm comfortable revving it to about 6,400 in third gear to avoid shifting into OD , however I’ve taken it close to 6,700 at times in 1st and 2nd gear.
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Old 12-04-2020, 08:54 AM   #228
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Ok lets assume a 10mph gain, trap 125mph on a 100-150 shot.

3.91s/26in/125mph is crossing the beams at 6300 top of third.

IMO, if you built the motor for 200 shot and you at some point plan on that use, go 3.73s, and buy 28in slicks when you want to spray it down later.
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Old 12-04-2020, 09:27 AM   #229
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Can the car fit a 28" slick (assume some growth too) without cutting/hammering to all hell?
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Old 12-04-2020, 09:30 AM   #230
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Good info

edit: and good point brian, With my lowered rear setup, and factory inner wheel-tubs, I have had doubts. one day I'm hoping to find someone at the track, at the end of a day where I could maybe bolt on one of their 28" wheel setups with a proper 3rd gen backspacing etc. It would take a lot of the guess work out of the equation by seeing it on the car and checking fitment in real life. I didn't have a chance to do that this past year and it wasn't on my priority list. I know it would be tight, and possibly too tight, especially if I were to street-drive the car to/from the track on the 28" tires. plus growth at speed on the top end too. ugh

It will probably several years before I pony up the money for the set of drag wheels/tires I truly want which will be 28” on a convo-pro wheel. So I’ll be running these 26” Mt et street SS for at least this year and probably next year too. maybe I can find someone next year to let me test fit a wheel.


Additionally,
I’m slightly used to the car performing under what it is supposed to do according to math and other similar cars. And, actually I’m ok with that... to an extent. I’m afraid I’ll be disappointed by the 3.73 switch with time/money invested. Mathematically I see what the calculators and people are suggesting... I then have to factor in that it’s not going to perform optimally perfect and add in a little error/fail percentage to any realistic expectations, just because that's how it goes for me doing this as a hobby.

The car will also get a bit heavier with the roll bar and vac pump and a few other items so I gotta compensate for that
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Old 12-04-2020, 03:23 PM   #231
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Hook that nitrous up and see how she acts with the 3.55 first

I also still vote for manual brake over a vacuum pump, unless its crankcase vacuum
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Old 12-04-2020, 10:02 PM   #232
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the nitrous is still a definite yes on my checklist, but I kinda had a goal of running fast enough N/A to get booted from the track for no roll-bar before "cheating" my way to that personal goal with the juice. its just One of those silly "life accomplishments" of mine basically. just run N/A 11.4x and then take the journey into seeing if a 100 shot or 150 shot will get me into the 10s. It would certainly save me some money (which my budget is quite tight this year) to not do the rear gear project, but I still crave a bit more instant neck-snapping performance from the car on the streets/strip/autoX. With no desire to adjust the converter and not wanting to always feed-my-need via the bottle, what else aside from a gear swap would get me more bang for the buck, and potentially get me a 11.49x from my mid-11.8s? But you could be right, i could plumb up the nitrous and just make a few hits with it to see what the car does with the 3.55 adn then make my decision afterwards.



I gotta research more about the manual brake setup. From my basic research I remember reading that the whole brake system really needs to be finely crafted and tuned. Any inferior component/setup could cause very undesirable braking. street/strip/autocross it all has to be capable of. I certainly have a small budget this year so I would not be able to afford more than about $500 towards sorting out teh brake issue, and reconstructing my brake system/components has the possibility to become expensive real quick. Manual brakes would look nice under the hood though, nice clean firewall without the ugly booster. Thats also one reason why I will not go with a hydroboost; no way is that ugly thing going to be under the hood (and its expensive). So, I will do some reading about manual brakes in the coming weeks. feel free to enlighten me as well though!
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Old 12-05-2020, 08:59 AM   #233
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I dont remember if I posted this before or not

https://www.manualbrakes.com/3rd-gen--82--92.html

Pretty small investment IMO and the guy has already done all the research
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Old 12-07-2020, 08:50 PM   #234
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look at that! awesome. one of the things that came up during my research was about the firewall flex, which is pretty noticeable in 3rd gen cars. looks like he includes a brace for it in the complete kit, so that is good.
his included link was also helpful: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...-pictures.html

-one thing that would cause me a little bit of pain, would be having to redo all my nice clean new NiCop brake lines and how they are mounted into the freshly painted engine bay. that's a bit of a detractor as I took a lot of time to weld up any holes in the Sheetmetal and it would be unpleasant to see the drill holes remaining if I had to move/redo the lines

manual brakes would get ride of some weight (booster) and clean up the components under the hood, I am just hesitant to try something so new/unknown to me. However, it would also make me not ADD weight to the car either, by avoiding the weight of an electric vac pump in the nose of the car.

Yet, at the bottom of his page, in yellow writing, he specifies that "non low-drag calipers are mandatory" he lists the calipers that fit this description. I run a Corvette brake setup (1Le style I think is the same??) with C4HD calipers up front and C4 calipers in the rear. they are a PBR caliper. I think I would need to contact him to see that my calipers/pads would work?
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Old 12-08-2020, 06:46 AM   #235
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I'd reach out to him and run your concerns by him.

IIRC autocross and road course guys preferred manual brakes over vacuum assist due to the improved pedal feel
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Old 12-08-2020, 10:46 AM   #236
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yup, that's exactly what I have been reading. Thanks for pointing me towards researching manual brakes. I've read a bunch about manual brakes and watched some videos about it too. You are right about autoX and road course cars using them. The Detroit Speed DSE-Z car used them too. If I had known this might be a route I might possibly take when I was redoing the engine bay, I would have probably done the brake lines differently and firewall area differently. It would be tough for me to start reconfiguring that area, filling sheetmetal holes, painting, etc.

I am going to reach out to the guy you mentioned and describe my current setup to see what he thinks.
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Old 12-09-2020, 08:40 AM   #237
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I got an email back from him explaining the kit in more detail. Part of the email he explained what I should do about the master cylinder:

" With the brake setup you described, you should be able to use a smaller bore master cylinder.

I would suggest a 7/8" bore master cylinder with your setup. The smaller bore will give you higher line pressures and more clamping forces at the caliper over a larger bore master cylinder. The master cylinder in the KIT has 3/8-24 inverted flare fittings which will match your Wilwood prop valve, so you will need to run new lines down to the prop valve. The master cylinder outlets are on the driver's side of the master cylinder, so it will be away from the header heat.

I will guarantee my system and the size of the master cylinder. If for ANY reason you do not like the performance of the manual brake setup, you can return it for a full refund. No questions ask. I want you to be satisfied with what you bought from me."


So, thats good news. I'm glad to learn all of this. I am still partially un-interested in re-doing any of the brake lines, especially moving them so that I have unsightly holes (5 at least) in the sheetmetal. Overall, its not a major amount of work, but if I do it and the pads/calipers/components are unhappy, well, that would be a problem.

He attached the directions for the whole install kit, but I don't want to make a bad move by posting it here without his permission.


-edit* another thing I forgot to mention, is that when i want to line-lock the front brakes for a burnout (either at teh track or secret street location), the line-lock works, but the booster doesn't have enough vacuum in it to really hold the car back for more than a few seconds.* how would manual brakes work with this line-lock issue...* *for a vac pump, the vacuum would be there (22" of vac compared to my 7.5" of vac) so in theory, the line lock should be useful because the booster is getting proper vac for full power-assist.* right? do manual brakes even work with a line-lock?.. I will ask the guy who builds the kits




So, I am on the fence about the brake situation still. I have a thread on Thirdgen.org about this also, and one of the prevailing thoughts is to just keep using the car. The brakes do work good.. its just not "performance braking". At this point I have three options to choose from:
A. don't do anything just yet
B. vacuum pump for brakes during street and autox driving and then plumb the vac pump line over to the crankcase during drag racing to pull vac on the engine.
C. manual brake conversion, probably could work good, but I'm hesitant to make a bigger change to the system than I planned on.

I have to keep in mind that this summer I did suffer a blown out brake booster....and I don't want to keep doing that.

.



Aside from that, I am waiting a few more weeks, but I think I am going to probably go ahead with the 3.91 gears. If I can test fit a 28" tire off of a 3rd gens next year that will eventually be the route I will go for drag racing. Money budget being extra tight this year I want to look for the most "bang for the buck" modifications. Knowing my Nitto 555 tires are not the best for the street or autocross, I might have to put money towards 4 tires for better street/autoX driving. Not going to do exhaust this year that is for sure. Hopefully the roll bar and hopefully plumb the nitrous. Will probably do the gears here at my house since my neighbor has the tools and he has done some gear projects in his day. I have only helped on a 9" for rear before and back in 2003 I "helped" put in my richmond 3.73's with a mechanic. It will be a new thing for me to learn and do ... I am pretty sure that the MT Et Street SS street radial is up to the task of a better launch, but my street car suspension is the unknown variable..as to how well it will handle things. Perhaps I can bring my 1.64-1.66 sixty foot into the 1.5x zone and yank a small wheelie in the process.
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Old 12-09-2020, 12:15 PM   #238
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In regards to the line lock, from my understanding, the booster should be irrelevant. Aside from initially applying the brakes. If you apply the line lock and within a few seconds the car can roll again, the it would seem the line lock solenoid is bleeding off the pressure.
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Old 12-09-2020, 01:02 PM   #239
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good point, yea actually I can't tell if its the fact that I can't really get a strong brake pedal press creating the line pressure, or if its just that the drag radials are getting sticky during the burnout and overpowering the front brakes.

the way it "feels" to me, is that when I press the brake pedal and activate the line lock, its only moderately pressurized because the lack of vacuum (7.5") feeding the booster isn't allowing the booster to do its job properly, so in turn brake pressure and line pressure at the caliper is minimal.
-- I could be totally mis-thinking this, so if anyone knows, feel free to explain it better to me. All I know is that with the old TPI engine I could line lock the car 1st-2nd-and into 3rd gear and it would hold my extended fun burnouts. I had proper vac to the booster then, and now, not so much.

A test/solution I wish I knew about before winter arrived was to put the car in neutral, revv up the engine high, and let it drop down to create vacuum on the brake booster, then put the car into gear and line-lock it (or launch it). Apparently some guys with similar setups like mine will do this. Free rev the engine while on the starting lien in neutral, build that vacum as the throttle blades are closed, put it into gear and footbrake stage the car, footbrake launch. I had never tried this. I was launching from a low vac idle and pushing through the brakes. same for linelock. never free-revved it prior.
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Old 12-09-2020, 03:36 PM   #240
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Manual brakes all the way. You can run the lines and reuse those holes.

No brake booster will make under the hood look way better.
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Old 12-09-2020, 04:39 PM   #241
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I would certainly not keep those lines and holes where thy are, that would look way weird for the lines to be so far forward fromt eh firewall and then head back towards the firewall. I'd have to run new lines and mount them differently. also the line lock. I do dig the no-booster appearance. I'm emailing backand forth withthe manual-brakes guy and he didnt steer me away from the vac pump, in all honesyty he said

he said " The least intrusive would be to try the vacuum pump. I would do some research on it, but make sure it can supply the vacuum needed at all times. I am not 100% sure how they work as I have not researched it enough.

You also have a choice in master cylinders. You don't have to use the master cylinder in the KIT. You can go with aftermarket Wilwood if you want for a little more "BLING". You will shed 9 pounds of weight with having no booster"


so, yea, good info,
I just wish I knew this back in January. I should ask, have you had any cars with manual brakes, or has anybody here, and any details can be shared both good/bad.
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Old 12-09-2020, 06:55 PM   #242
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I had a late 80s s10 with manual brakes. Brake feel was great, it was smooth and consistent every time you stepped on the pedal
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Old 01-17-2021, 04:34 PM   #243
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I am still waiting for my 3.91 gearset to arrive from amazon, it has been a nightmare. I ordered it on Jan 4th when they had 2 left in stock. over those two weeks, it did not ship, then it was out of stock for a few days, then I was told it will arrive jan 17, then this morning I was told they canceled my order altogether and don't have any. The past 5 consecutive days on the phone with amazon and many half-answers later, it looks like I will have to find the 3.91 gearset elsewhere. This is not a popular ratio and US gear won't sell me one directly as they don't have any to sell?!? US gear was also recently bought out by a bigger company (that works on excavating equipment) who now handles their customer service and they were of little help. When I talked to Moser on Jan 4th they told me they had 1 remaining 3.91 gearset left in stock, but it was not treated with the Iso-micro finish and if I wanted to get that upgrade, I would have to wait 3-4 weeks for them to send it out and get it back, prior to sending it to me and it would also be pretty costly. Thats why I looked elsewhere and saw that 2 were available on amazon on Jan 4th; and these exact US gear ones were already ISO treated and were a cheaper price.. No luck finding one on Summit or Jegs or anywhere. Places like Mark Williams say they have it on their website, but I am wondering if they just list it as for sale and it ships from elsewhere. So, today, after amazon told me it was hopeless for amazon to fulfill my order, I placed an online order for it on Mosers website, hoping that they still have that one gearset left in stock. I already ordered the 12 bolt install kit (shims, gasket, bearings) from Moser and it is here at my house. I also have the 80-90 NON-synthetic Lucas gear oil that they recommend. I really just need the ring and pinion so I can get to work. Fingers crossed!


I had wired up the 2-step rev limiter in October real quick and just put it on a push-hold on/off button in the ashtray with the nitrous controls. I only had 1 day at the track to test it, but I found that it was a bit non-user friendly for me to hold my foot on the throttle, another on the brake, AND hold the 2-step button while staging.... and trying to release the button at the exact moment that I release the brake pedal. I did well on my first attempt but on pass #2 and #3 I didn't get an even/clean release. I didn't want the 2-step on the steering wheel or on the shifter, so I thought, hmm what about putting it on the brake pedal, and also include a master toggle switch so I don't accidentally bump it. So thats what I did.






So, in order for the 2-step rev limiter to work I have to (1)have it ENABLED in the sniper tune(handheld) and this is also where I set the rpm I want it to be at. (2)I also have to have the master arming switch (in ashtray) flipped to ON, ... and (3) I have to push down the momentary release style button on the brake pedal using my foot. It works! I also made the button's head removable, so that I could simply pluck it out and put it in my center console storage if it seems to catch on my shoe. Without the button head on the brake pedal I can NOT accidentally push the button in. I know the brake pedal pad is clunky and ugly, but to me it is better than the skinny little oem brake pedal.

Now, all I have to do while staging is hold the brake pedal (and the incorporated button) to the floor while also holding the throttle to the floor and as soon as my left leg lifts off the brake, the 2-step button releases at the exact same time. If I am ever worried about knocking the button downs track, I will probably just click the manual on/off toggle switch to OFF after I shift from 2nd-3rd gear while at halftrack.








I finally got some time to install my new Dash camera system and so far it is workign great. I need to play with the settings and experiment on sunny days, but so far so good. I might move the rear camera 1" lower, but time will tell.
I will type up the details in this other thread:
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69194


fingers crossed I can get this 3.91 gearset.
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Old 01-18-2021, 07:46 AM   #244
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That's why I had a steering wheel push button and brake switch for my 2step. Don't want to remember to manually un arm system and don't want to engage 2 step at top end decel.
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Old 01-18-2021, 08:26 AM   #245
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yup! I remember reading about it in your thread a few weeks ago. Your gameplan/layout certainly makes sense; my car I want to keep the steering wheel button free, so I decided to go with the brake-pedal release button. So, similar concept, different placement of switches to complete the circuit.

As long as I simply flip the toggle switch to OFF after the 2-3 shift, I'll never have a problem. I'm usually pretty "bored" in the back-half of the track, so flipping the switch OFF will give me something to do! Also, I never use that left side area of my brake pedal, so its very unlikely that I'd have my foot over there. And my non-drag racing tune files will just have the 2-step limiter disabled in the tune file itself, so that should also be safe. Makes sense to me.
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Old 01-18-2021, 08:48 AM   #246
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Does the Sniper allow for some type of setting in addition to just enabling the 2step? Like a mph range, where you could set it to that anything over 5mph, the 2 step wont engage? That way it would work on the line, but once you're down track, a rare chance of hitting the button wouldnt do anything.
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Old 01-18-2021, 09:10 AM   #247
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I am pretty sure on the more elaborate Holley EFI systems (HP, dominator, etc) they allow those parameters. On the sniper, I can only click a check box to enable it or not. I know exactly what ya mean, but the sniper software is the most basic of the Holley stuff.

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Old 01-18-2021, 09:19 AM   #248
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Looks like a nice and user-friendly solution to simplify the process. Hope the delivery comes through for you. Amazon customer service has been slipping when you need to actually get an item.
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Old 01-18-2021, 05:51 PM   #249
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What if you had a micro switch on the throttle body that depressed at WOT and fed a relay that completed the brake pedal switch circuit? I can sketch it out if you are interested.
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Old 01-18-2021, 08:11 PM   #250
IROCZman15
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I think I can visualize what you are saying, it makes some sense circuit wise. I do want to keep the throttle body and underhood area streamlined and clean so I'd have to find a way to neatly mount a microswitch. It might be an option if my current setup does not seem to be as user-friendly as I hope it will be. It may even turn out that I won't like using the 2-step at the launch anyways. If ya feel like making a diagram and posting it here for my (or other peoples) future use, that would be cool.


Spoke to Moser Engineering this morning and they did have a 3.91 gearset, so I had them ship it on over to me. It should be here at the end of the week. Amazon gave me a $50 gift card for their error and my troubles, but oh well.

So, I hope maybe if I have some time this Sunday, to drop the whole rear axle out of the car and start the gear install project. Since I really haven't done a gear swap/install before I figured it is best to roll the whole rear axle out from under the car and work on it on jackstands..instead of fighting everything around while working under the car . I have the gasket, the moser install kit, 3 quarts of Lucas 80-90 gear oil (non synthetic), my neighbor has a micrometer and he might even have a pinion depth checking tool. My setup used a solid-pinion spacer and no crush sleeve.
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