5 point harnesses on the street

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by coolmanvette75

In all honesty, who's really gonna bother you? My dad has run simpson 5 point harnesses on both the drivers and passengers side for the past 10 years. We have been pulled over and no cop has ever even mentioned them to us

I got ticket for wearing them from an Allentown, NJ cop while on 195 and that's was the specific reason he pulled me over, so while you may get cut some slack, it is illegal and you an be ticketed.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

I got ticket for wearing them from an Allentown, NJ cop while on 195 and that's was the specific reason he pulled me over, so while you may get cut some slack, it is illegal and you an be ticketed.

What if they are DOT approved?

FYI FFB, Simpsons are not.

[BonzoHansen]

dot or not harness are not legal in nj AFAIK. not sure any have dot anyway.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

dot or not harness are not legal in nj AFAIK. not sure any have dot anyway.

Schroth makes DOT approved ones. The stuff in the Summit catalog is not.

[BonzoHansen]

I still think they are illegal in NJ. Even if legal, a cop will still ticket you and you’ll have to go to court to fight it out. plus I think they could still do more harm than good in a street car, with no helmet and no hans. Instead of all your body moving 15"-20" and dissipating energy as designed, now just your head and neck do. yikes. and airbags add a whole extra layer of complication. and with no bar/cage might kill you in a rollover. there is actually an expectation of you moving/leaning sideways in rollover in 3 points so if the roof partially collapses you still have a chance.

all that assumes the harness is installed correctly and doesn’t compress your spine in a 25 mph fender bender.

[Featherburner]

What if your car didn't come with 3 point belts or even lap belts? How could they ticket you if your car never came with belts?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I still think they are illegal in NJ. Even if legal, a cop will still ticket you and you’ll have to go to court to fight it out. plus I think they could still do more harm than good in a street car, with no helmet and no hans. Instead of all your body moving 15"-20" and dissipating energy as designed, now just your head and neck do. yikes. and airbags add a whole extra layer of complication. and with no bar/cage might kill you in a rollover. there is actually an expectation of you moving/leaning sideways in rollover in 3 points so if the roof partially collapses you still have a chance.

all that assumes the harness is installed correctly and doesn’t compress your spine in a 25 mph fender bender.

Let's just say for the sake of discussion, they are properly anchored and installed as per manufacturer spec.

In an old car with a non retractable style dual 2 point belt, no air bag, no padded steering wheel, and no crumple zones wouldn't wider double shoulder webbing be a benefit? No more face-meet-wheel?

Originally Posted by Featherburner

What if your car didn't come with 3 point belts or even lap belts? How could they ticket you if your car never came with belts?

This.

[sweetbmxrider]

And what if the car is equipped with a proper roll bar, race seat, and harness is installed correctly. Would the lack of movement prevent you from hitting the roll bar?

[V]

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/#SN208

just some federal seatbelt info

[richduty455]

what a dick......could have just told you "you know those are illegal" didn't have to ticket you.....i mean atleast you were wearing a belt....

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

And what if the car is equipped with a proper roll bar, race seat, and harness is installed correctly. Would the lack of movement prevent you from hitting the roll bar?

Unless your wearing a helmet and neck brace, your poor neck will take all the forward momentum and swing back and forth.

No air bad to stop/slow it, and le snap snap vertebrae.

[BonzoHansen]

Define the conversation. Race car or street car? Replacing factory belts? Etc. This conversation did start with a 4th gen f-body, not a 54 Ford.

John, yea, a properly installed harness is better than no belts or lap belts. But for f-bodies I can now get quality, modern 3 points in every generation. Including good retrofit rear 3 points. Morris Classics and others. Anyone driving a 68 Camaro coupe with lap belts is a moron.

Kind of off topic, but despite what people do all the time a cage has no place in a street car. Watch that M3 wreck video for movement in an accident. Ok, let's use a harness, problem solved. Helmet? No helmet probably did not help the guy that wrecked that 74 in PA a few weeks ago.

Energy dissipation seems to be key in these things. If I’m wearing a harness the only thing still doing 65 is my head. OE seatbelts are designed to stretch. Harnesses by nature stretch a lot less, for good reason.

In the end, the assumption is 3 points is good so 5 is better is often false security. There is more to it than just belts.

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Unless your wearing a helmet and neck brace, your poor neck will take all the forward momentum and swing back and forth.

No air bad to stop/slow it, and le snap snap vertebrae.

What about all of the people who wreck while racing in any given motorsports activity that does not require a hans like device? In a stock car, yeah stock restraint systems work. In a car with a roll bar or cage, the stock restraint systems are not designed to work with them. That is why we use helmets and harnesses. It is a large risk driving a car with a bar/cage on the street without a helmet no matter what you have for belts.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

What about all of the people who wreck while racing in any given motorsports activity that does not require a hans like device? In a stock car, yeah stock restraint systems work. In a car with a roll bar or cage, the stock restraint systems are not designed to work with them. That is why we use helmets and harnesses. It is a large risk driving a car with a bar/cage on the street without a helmet no matter what you have for belts.

Wait what?

If you have air bags, a helmet, stock seat belt and a bar, you would be fine. Helmet will prevent your brain from homogenizing on the bar and air bag/seatbelt will stop whiplash.

If you delete airbags, throw a stiff steering wheel in, wear a 5point, and have a bar, well its your best interests to where something for your neck.

As far as bar on the street, you can easily set it up so the main hoop is out of the whiplash range of your head and if you have a taller aftermarket seat to prevent head to bar contact, its even better.

All it takes is money. And in the end, shouda stayed stock.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Define the conversation. Race car or street car? Replacing factory belts? Etc. This conversation did start with a 4th gen f-body, not a 54 Ford.

John, yea, a properly installed harness is better than no belts or lap belts. But for f-bodies I can now get quality, modern 3 points in every generation. Including good retrofit rear 3 points. Morris Classics and others. Anyone driving a 68 Camaro coupe with lap belts is a moron.

Kind of off topic, but despite what people do all the time a cage has no place in a street car. Watch that M3 wreck video for movement in an accident. Ok, let's use a harness, problem solved. Helmet? No helmet probably did not help the guy that wrecked that 74 in PA a few weeks ago.

Energy dissipation seems to be key in these things. If I’m wearing a harness the only thing still doing 65 is my head. OE seatbelts are designed to stretch. Harnesses by nature stretch a lot less, for good reason.

In the end, the assumption is 3 points is good so 5 is better is often false security. There is more to it than just belts.

I get that more does not always equal better, and the fact that Hagerty will insure a 1000hp street car but a 350hp car with a bar gets DQ'd underscores the fact that the bar is not the pinnacle of safety on the street. My question is that of legality on the street given a DOT approval. You can't say "well, they are user installed so they will DQ" since Morris CC stuff is user installed non-factory as well. And how many guys are still running their 40+ year old belts?

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

What about all of the people who wreck while racing in any given motorsports activity that does not require a hans like device? In a stock car, yeah stock restraint systems work. In a car with a roll bar or cage, the stock restraint systems are not designed to work with them. That is why we use helmets and harnesses. It is a large risk driving a car with a bar/cage on the street without a helmet no matter what you have for belts.

Beat me to it. If you require a bar/harness system but no HANS, then by that argument it's time for some intense whiplash?

[sweetbmxrider]

Originally Posted by LTb1ow

Wait what?

If you have air bags, a helmet, stock seat belt and a bar, you would be fine. Helmet will prevent your brain from homogenizing on the bar and air bag/seatbelt will stop whiplash.

If you delete airbags, throw a stiff steering wheel in, wear a 5point, and have a bar, well its your best interests to where something for your neck.

As far as bar on the street, you can easily set it up so the main hoop is out of the whiplash range of your head and if you have a taller aftermarket seat to prevent head to bar contact, its even better.

All it takes is money. And in the end, shouda stayed stock.

Youtube vids of airbags deploying while drag racing.....funny to watch but not when its your car. Also, you have to look at some of the intense wrecks that occur in motorsports at very high rates of speed yet the driver walks away. Then you look at 40-60mph wrecks on the street where most are taken by ambulance and any speed above that, the driver usually doesn't fair too well. So I guess we are only arguing the "street" environment here and not a track of any sort. Still, it must hold some water.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

I get that more does not always equal better, and the fact that Hagerty will insure a 1000hp street car but a 350hp car with a bar gets DQ'd underscores the fact that the bar is not the pinnacle of safety on the street. My question is that of legality on the street given a DOT approval. You can't say "well, they are user installed so they will DQ" since Morris CC stuff is user installed non-factory as well. And how many guys are still running their 40+ year old belts?

I'm not.

I guess we'd have to find out if a dot certified harness is legal. Who can do that? And I'm still not sure I'd use one on the street.

Regarding the MCC type 3 points, they replace factory 3 points (albeit a different design) in factory mount locations, that could be a key differentiation from a harness. Not sure if that matters or not. But you'd never ever get a ticket for those belts. And his stuff is tested to surpass DOT requirements. But alas your point about non-stock could be legit.

So 2 discussions here: 1) legality and 2) safety.

[LTb1ow]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Youtube vids of airbags deploying while drag racing.....funny to watch but not when its your car. Also, you have to look at some of the intense wrecks that occur in motorsports at very high rates of speed yet the driver walks away. Then you look at 40-60mph wrecks on the street where most are taken by ambulance and any speed above that, the driver usually doesn't fair too well. So I guess we are only arguing the "street" environment here and not a track of any sort. Still, it must hold some water.

Well, I think the line between a true street car and not, is being blurred here.

Yes, guys walk away from big race car wrecks, but you don't see them getting taken away because the camera rarely shows that. A regular car crash always has victims on backboards cause its a lawsuit if the EMT's don't take every precaution with a crash victim. Again, race car rules vs street car rules.

True street cars don't need bars.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I'm not.

I guess we'd have to find out if a dot certified harness is legal. Who can do that? And I'm still not sure I'd use one on the street.

Regarding the MCC type 3 points, they replace factory 3 points (albeit a different design) in factory mount locations, that could be a key differentiation from a harness. Not sure if that matters or not. But you'd never ever get a ticket for those belts. And his stuff is tested to surpass DOT requirements. But alas your point about non-stock could be legit.

So 2 discussions here: 1) legality and 2) safety.

Also begs the question; what's the difference between a Schroth DOT harness and a Simpson one? Anything other than filing paperwork?


EDIT:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?reg=571.209

I'm reading this now. Posted up for anyone else who wants to take a peek.

So far no sign of any requirement that 5 pts would not meet, other than the retractors. I think the "neck snap" due to 5 pt thing is bunk based on this text.

[Featherburner]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

John, yea, a properly installed harness is better than no belts or lap belts. But for f-bodies I can now get quality, modern 3 points in every generation. Including good retrofit rear 3 points. Morris Classics and others. Anyone driving a 68 Camaro coupe with lap belts is a moron.

Scott, have you seen retrofit 3 points for 1st gen convertibles? Front and rear?

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by sweetbmxrider

Youtube vids of airbags deploying while drag racing.....funny to watch but not when its your car. Also, you have to look at some of the intense wrecks that occur in motorsports at very high rates of speed yet the driver walks away. Then you look at 40-60mph wrecks on the street where most are taken by ambulance and any speed above that, the driver usually doesn't fair too well. So I guess we are only arguing the "street" environment here and not a track of any sort. Still, it must hold some water.

Apples to oranges I think. The kind of wreck, the circumstance really matter. Race cars don’t usually get t-boned, get hit head on or otherwise stop dead in their tracks. that is why the new camaro has stupid high belt lines, side impact protection. How many of those race wrecks involve a lot of energy dissipation? Indy cars disintegrate. Winston cup cars slide 2500’+ down the track and bounce around, maybe even get airborne. Except Earnhardt, and that didn’t work out to well for him. But usually no trees or telephone poles stopping them, etc. Plus the average pro race car driver is in better shape than I am so I expect them to fare better than I, all else being equal.

I watched a ford explorer fly through the air on the turnpike last year. So much energy dissolved from the movement, both on the street & in the air. If that girl had her belts on she lives. But she flew out the window.

Old saying is true: it’s not the fall that kills you. It’s the sudden stop.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Featherburner

Scott, have you seen retrofit 3 points for 1st gen convertibles? Front and rear?

no, which is why I said coupe. to be honest, I'd find modern seats with integrated belts if I had a convertible. Not sure about the back, might have to find a more creative answer.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Also begs the question; what's the difference between a Schroth DOT harness and a Simpson one? Anything other than filing paperwork?

Their DOT testing appears to be model specific, and I do not see camaros or firebirds. So it may be a moot point unless I'm missing something. Plus their more generic ones (and I think all the their 'street' models) all allow the retained use of the factory 3 points. Hmm.

Schroth's Tuning line of belts offers the world's only aftermarket harnesses that meet the requirements of the DOT. All belts mount to factory locations to utilize the engineering that's already gone into your car.

SCHROTH street legal harness belts are unique in their ability to be installed to factory provided mounting points along with the factory provided seat belts. SCHROTH harness belts meet all certification requirements by the German TÜV, ECE-R 16.04 and US-DOT FMVSS 209 for use on public roads. Each belt comes with complete installation and operating instructions. If your vehicle is listed in the included Vehicle Reference List the installation has been tested and appoved with the stock seat or the listed aftermarket seats.

SCHROTH QuickFit harnessbelts have the make and model of the applicable car printed on the tail strap label.

Unlike most other aftermarket harness belts, most SCHROTH street legal harness belts have a unique disconnect feature between the front part of the harness and the rear tail strap. When you are not using the SCHROTH street legal harness belts, they can be stored out of the way allowing complete access for all passengers and full use of all factory seat belts.

look at this document, look at all the warnings, seat styles, etc. involved. http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Ra...structions.pdf


I’ve read this like 3 times. these belts were not tested by nhtsa and it just shows where schroth harness might pass under certain specific circumstances.: http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/NH...f_Approval.pdf

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?reg=571.209

I'm reading this now. Posted up for anyone else who wants to take a peek.

So far no sign of any requirement that 5 pts would not meet, other than the retractors. I think the "neck snap" due to 5 pt thing is bunk based on this text.

208 and 210 matter too., as per the NHTSA doc link above from schroth
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?reg=571.208
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?reg=571.210

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

Their DOT testing appears to be model specific, and I do not see camaros or firebirds. So it may be a moot point unless I'm missing something. Plus their more generic ones (and I think all the their 'street' models) all allow the retained use of the factory 3 points. Hmm.






look at this document, look at all the warnings, seat styles, etc. involved. http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Ra...structions.pdf


I’ve read this like 3 times. these belts were not tested by nhtsa and it just shows where schroth harness might pass under certain specific circumstances.: http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/NH...f_Approval.pdf



208 and 210 matter too., as per the NHTSA doc link above from schroth
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?reg=571.208
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regul...px?reg=571.210

Another thing I just thought of. Children's booster seats are 5 pts, so it's probably not the 5 pt design that's the issure more than mounting. Kids are still developing so a good restraint design is probably even more critical.

[BonzoHansen]

yes, mounting matters a bunch. which is why every ricer moron with harnesses bolted to the floor are all going to compress their spines. seat style matters too. check that schroth document.


edit1: now that I think of it a car seat is a great example. look at the instructions. where the shoulder belts go through the seat must be above the child's shoulders.