E-85 and ethanol fuel alternative *rant*

[jin1481]

Just saw something about it on motortrend. It sounds and looks like a great way to wain off of imported oil and a way to get more money back into the states, where it needs to be. Its great gives me hope that we arent going to turn into japans community of ridicolously small econmic cars, believe me ive been living in okinawa japan for nearly two years now. It even says it burns cooler, cleaner, and increases performance as well as help the enviroment stuff. Hopefully this stuff takes hold and its as good as its being made out to be.

sorry first good thing ive seen doing with fuel, auto performance, and the economy in the united states of bush.

[qwikz28]

Just saw something about it on motortrend. It sounds and looks like a great way to wain off of imported oil and a way to get more money back into the states, where it needs to be. Its great gives me hope that we arent going to turn into japans community of ridicolously small econmic cars, believe me ive been living in okinawa japan for nearly two years now. It even says it burns cooler, cleaner, and increases performance as well as help the enviroment stuff. Hopefully this stuff takes hold and its as good as its being made out to be.

sorry first good thing ive seen doing with fuel, auto performance, and the economy in the united states of bush.
i dont know what you've been reading but it was wrong on all accounts.

from what i have learned in chemistry ethanol is EXTREMELY solvent and is known to be corrosive to certain metals and does not have the lubricating properties of other substances so it will cause premature wear to our engines.

as for performance and mileage: everyone's car is designed to run on the old gas so our timing is all off now. we can all expect about a 10-20% decrease in both HP and gas mileage with this new gas. why is this? ethanol bumps the octane up a bit but is very very unstable and can burn quicker or slower without warning. it is possible to adjust the timing to make up for this somewhat but because of ethanols instability it will be hard to make your car consistant.

is ethanol the end all be all? **** no! 1 gallon of ethanol requires 131,000BTUs to produce, but only has an energy value of 77,000BTUs. so we are wasting energy making energy? how is that helping the environment? how is that efficiant. if our cars could run on 100% ethanol we would need 97% of america's land to produce enough corn to make 1 year supply to drive our automobiles! (E85 is 85% ethanol so that would need ~80% of our country)

in the end we now have decreased gas mileage, higher gas prices because every gas station has to modify their equipent cause of ethanols corrosive properties, our cars are slower, and our piston rings are becoming more worn more quickly

on the other hand it does burn cooler and cleaner like you mentioned but remember there was a manufacturing process to which could offset the cleaner burning fuel. but who knows

edit: one more thing: ethanol costs $1.74/gallon... gasoline costs $0.95/gallon

another thing is if you start running your car on E85 you would need to change your oil every 1000 miles or so which sucks cause i can do that in a week sometimes

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, since the Arab is gunna back his oil loving buddies, sure he would answer like that.

The only thing that you said that is right is that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of energy, therefor decreasing gas milage as it takes more ethanol fuel to power the engine.
As for it being a solvent and being corrosive, not 100% true. Vehicles will most deffinatly need to have an updated fuel system, it wont hurt or destroy anything. And gas isnt ment to lubricate ****, thats why we have oil.
Yes, it does take more energy to make ethanol then it does gasoline. What the big driver of E85 is the end of dependance on foriegn oil to fuel our cars. Brazil has gone from an 80% to 30% dependance on foriegn oil by using its own sugar crops to fuel its cars. And in fact, the Ethanol gas they sell is MUCH cheaper to buy then gas.
What we see with high gas prices is not because of our gas guzzling SUV's or super mega V8 supercars. If what the Arab said is true, and gas is that low to buy on the grand scale, then the price we are paying at the pump is being driven up by the gas companies. They hide behind national disasters and growing economies. E85 could help America cut down on foriegn oil, and Im sure that we can find a way to maintain performance and gas milage with using E85. Higher compression engines with direct injection could deffinatly spawn support for E85.

[qwikz28]

well we can compare the ethanol to gasoline but personally i dont think that is the answer. hydrogen fuel cells have proved promising but the problem is working out the minor kinks in problems such as hydrogen explosions in the event of an accident.

ethanol makes a great temporary solution but i dont see it as the future of energy. e85 will eat up steel and certain rubbers over time and that will prove to be annoying after we have to replace every fuel system component and do engine rebuilds every 3-5 years or so.

hydrogen on the other hand is simple. the electrolysis of water yields great energy and if i recall correctly, no emissions.

i dont think we can go back to gasonline though, forget it. it burns dirty and is expensive as ****. its been a great 100 years gasoline but its time to move on

[NJSPEEDER]

E85 is only currently cheaper than gas because it is not taxed as heavily. give it some time and we can all watch it hit the same price per gallon. in terms of production cost it is only slightly more costly than fuel, that would cost would drop if production broadened some more.
ethonol still acts as more of a solvent that traditional gasoline and will shorten the service life of 95% of the engines currently operating on americas highways.
the gas companies don't mind cause they can look good to the hippies, the car companies like it cause they can charge $500 more for an engine and sell more cars since they won't be lasting as long, and the farmers love it because it is basically free money to be made from government financed crops.
ethanol can and will lower emissions, but it is at the long term expense of our wallets.
when the government/auto manufacturers/tree huggers gets its head out of its collective ass and starts persuing diesel and hybrid technologies we will all be better off.

[BigAls87Z28]

Hyrdogen Fuel Cells is the future but there are still major compliactions, the same complications that hinder E85 such as infastructure (network of gas stations, processessing plants, etc), and also takes more engergy to process hyrodgen fuel. GM as well as many other car makers are working on creating hydrogen cars.

[BigAls87Z28]

E85 is only currently cheaper than gas because it is not taxed as heavily. give it some time and we can all watch it hit the same price per gallon. in terms of production cost it is only slightly more costly than fuel, that would cost would drop if production broadened some more.
ethonol still acts as more of a solvent that traditional gasoline and will shorten the service life of 95% of the engines currently operating on americas highways.
the gas companies don't mind cause they can look good to the hippies, the car companies like it cause they can charge $500 more for an engine and sell more cars since they won't be lasting as long, and the farmers love it because it is basically free money to be made from government financed crops.
ethanol can and will lower emissions, but it is at the long term expense of our wallets.
when the government/auto manufacturers/tree huggers gets its head out of its collective ass and starts persuing diesel and hybrid technologies we will all be better off.

Id gladdly pay 500 bucks then the 5k preimum (before markup) you pay now for a Hyrbid Prius? Most people will never ever recoupe the money they spent on a Prius and most of those tree hugging douche bags spent THOUSANDS over sticker just to say they had one!! Best part is, many people are not coming near the numbers Toyota and the EPA claim!! While its still getting 40mpg or so, that is not saving the world any!! That is not reducing the need for foriegn oil at all! It still uses 100% gas to drive its engine when its activated!!
Next year, GM will introduce its Two-Mode Hybrid system. That, combined with E85 capacity and Active Fuel Managment will yield us numbers never ever seen before in an SUV. Now imagine such technology in a smaller, lighter, 2 door, 2+2 seater sports coupe!! Could you imagine getting 40+mpg and having 400+hp?
The BioDiesel idea is a good one, as the fuel is looked to as waste right now (oil left over from deep friers and such). That there kills 2 birds with one stone.

[qwikz28]

F the bs and stop working on this ethanol crap and give me hydrogen

[BigAls87Z28]

They are working on Hyrdogen.

[qwikz28]

They are working on Hyrdogen.
then whats the point of wasting time on other fuel sources? spend those resources and engineering time into fuel cells.

[BigAls87Z28]

They have, but E85 can be done NOW! Everyone bitches about GM doing stuff "in the future" and nothing NOW. Toyota isnt making money hand over fist with the Prius because they waited for hybrid technology, they lauched it NOW.

[Savage_Messiah]

Well, since the Arab is gunna back his oil loving buddies, sure he would answer like that.

The only thing that you said that is right is that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of energy, therefor decreasing gas milage as it takes more ethanol fuel to power the engine.
As for it being a solvent and being corrosive, not 100% true. Vehicles will most deffinatly need to have an updated fuel system, it wont hurt or destroy anything. And gas isnt ment to lubricate ****, thats why we have oil.
Yes, it does take more energy to make ethanol then it does gasoline. What the big driver of E85 is the end of dependance on foriegn oil to fuel our cars. Brazil has gone from an 80% to 30% dependance on foriegn oil by using its own sugar crops to fuel its cars. And in fact, the Ethanol gas they sell is MUCH cheaper to buy then gas.
What we see with high gas prices is not because of our gas guzzling SUV's or super mega V8 supercars. If what the Arab said is true, and gas is that low to buy on the grand scale, then the price we are paying at the pump is being driven up by the gas companies. They hide behind national disasters and growing economies. E85 could help America cut down on foriegn oil, and Im sure that we can find a way to maintain performance and gas milage with using E85. Higher compression engines with direct injection could deffinatly spawn support for E85.

:scratch: it's not??? :? when the prices go up and so do their profits it sorta makes me wonder...

[PBodyGT87]

Okay, so i know that you are all concerned with how much energy it takes to make E85 fuel to begin with. When they use the corn and refine it to get the ethanol, there is a ton of this bi-product material that does not go into the fuel and this bi-product waste is almost half of the amount of ethanol each batch produces, which... is a lot of waste.

HOWEVER: The bi-product can be recycled to make a more crude oil to run the machines on that refine the corn. so it would all get cycled around. That's not too bad now.

(watched a whole speacial on E85 on TV)

[Savage_Messiah]

will it waste away engines like Egypt is saying??

[PBodyGT87]

you have to take into consideration that anything that is going to run on e85 or crude bio-oils is going to be updated engine wise so that wear and tear of engines will be minimized. stuff breaks down now as it is with fossil fuels, so what's the difference? they aren't looking to totally convert, at least not for many many years. we are just looking to decrease the need to rely on foreign fuel.

[Dark_Knight7096]

Bad news for Hybrid owners anyway, something that isn't made explicitly known is the fact that about 6-9 years down the line, your battery for your electric motor is going to take a **** and you're going to have to replace it. Replacement cost? Not too much, you know that 8K or so you saved on gasoline by having a hybrid? Yea, save that, because you WILL need it. And all that good stuff you did for the environment by not making as much emissions will just about offset the long-term ecological disaster from all the batteries from all the hybrids that have to be disposed of. I'm a big fan of the fuel-cell idea! There is an emission too, it is not totally emission free. Let's see, you get some hydrogen together and you oxygenate it, hmm, hydrogen and oxygen what do they make when they are combined. Oh wait, that's right WATER! There are several cities that have buses that run on fuel-cells, I think NJTransit has a couple. There are fuel-cell cars in california. It's a totally renewable energy source! Also I'm all for bio-diesels too btw.

[qwikz28]

you have to take into consideration that anything that is going to run on e85 or crude bio-oils is going to be updated engine wise so that wear and tear of engines will be minimized. stuff breaks down now as it is with fossil fuels, so what's the difference? they aren't looking to totally convert, at least not for many many years. we are just looking to decrease the need to rely on foreign fuel.
whoa! so your saying e85 came out with expectations of it being only a temporary solution? i can live with that but i'm worried about people getting lazy and leaving that as the main power source.

and im definately exagerating the corrosiveness of ethanol. you wont see anything wearing out in your motor right away but a couple years straight of e85 will require some new parts. im pretty sure ethanol has no effect on aluminum too.

[NJSPEEDER]

hybrids are coming down in price, if more companies got involved we would see that price drop even quicker. currently the price saved on fuel over service life has been shown to save thousands over the extra expense of purchase, something no other alternative drive/source systems can even come close to claiming.
biodiesel is a good technology, buit it isn't ever going to be a savior because there is currently only 1 mass production operation in the country and it can only supply enough to feed 2 fuel stations(i forget where they are, but willie nelson is an investor). biobased diesel development woudl also end up being hampered by the same supply side expense as ethanol since current prodution of raw materials in this country is not enough to match demands as a food source and as a fuel source combined.
ethanol does not have any negative effect on engine parts while running, it is when the engine is turned off that the fun begins. since there is still some fuel present inside the engine when it is shut off, that is where your corrosion problems begin. current coating technology and evap systems help some, but most of the atomized fuel is still lef tin the engine to settle on pistons and valve faces to corrode the parts.

a little off topic, one very important thing that seems to be left out of fossil fuel debates is that cars are not the biggest users of fossil fuels. the rubber and plastics industries are. just though about that and though it was odd that no one ever says anything about using fewer zip lock bags or buying longer lasting tires to save teh enviroment. :)

[enRo]

:scratch: WTF is Ethanol 85? :rofl:

[JPiZZiJP]

Funny a thread was started about this... I was reading an article about it online a week or two ago while I was in Atlantic City and didn't have time to make a post to ask you whores your opinions lol...

[jin1481]

its a pretty good topic, good for the eviroment, good for economy, good for performance, not good for engine life. its a real good topic i would like to see it take hold, i hope the 2010 camaro uses it so i dont have to worry about it guzzling gas and funding an oil war.

[NJSPEEDER]

i hope it doesn't catch on. limited engine life at a higher price is not my idea of a good time. especially when you see that the fuel will cost just as much or more per gallon as regular gas.
if the government or anyone else wants to reduce our need for imported oil i have a radical idea, START FUGGIN' DRILLING IN THE USA!!!!! the known reserves in our own country are enough to last for the better part of a century, and that is only what is known with a handful of research points on public lands. imagine how much oil is out there if someone was to actually go looking for it seriously.
oil is not in short supply in this world, it is jsut controled very well by the OPEC nations.

[Frosty]

i hope it doesn't catch on. limited engine life at a higher price is not my idea of a good time. especially when you see that the fuel will cost just as much or more per gallon as regular gas.
if the government or anyone else wants to reduce our need for imported oil i have a radical idea, START FUGGIN' DRILLING IN THE USA!!!!! the known reserves in our own country are enough to last for the better part of a century, and that is only what is known with a handful of research points on public lands. imagine how much oil is out there if someone was to actually go looking for it seriously.
oil is not in short supply in this world, it is jsut controled very well by the OPEC nations.

Tell that to the fuggin tree-huggers.

[johnjzjz]

i dont know what you've been reading but it was wrong on all accounts.

from what i have learned in chemistry ethanol is EXTREMELY solvent and is known to be corrosive to certain metals and does not have the lubricating properties of other substances so it will cause premature wear to our engines.

as for performance and mileage: everyone's car is designed to run on the old gas so our timing is all off now. we can all expect about a 10-20% decrease in both HP and gas mileage with this new gas. why is this? ethanol bumps the octane up a bit but is very very unstable and can burn quicker or slower without warning. it is possible to adjust the timing to make up for this somewhat but because of ethanols instability it will be hard to make your car consistant.

is ethanol the end all be all? **** no! 1 gallon of ethanol requires 131,000BTUs to produce, but only has an energy value of 77,000BTUs. so we are wasting energy making energy? how is that helping the environment? how is that efficiant. if our cars could run on 100% ethanol we would need 97% of america's land to produce enough corn to make 1 year supply to drive our automobiles! (E85 is 85% ethanol so that would need ~80% of our country)

in the end we now have decreased gas mileage, higher gas prices because every gas station has to modify their equipent cause of ethanols corrosive properties, our cars are slower, and our piston rings are becoming more worn more quickly

on the other hand it does burn cooler and cleaner like you mentioned but remember there was a manufacturing process to which could offset the cleaner burning fuel. but who knows

edit: one more thing: ethanol costs $1.74/gallon... gasoline costs $0.95/gallon

another thing is if you start running your car on E85 you would need to change your oil every 1000 miles or so which sucks cause i can do that in a week sometimes
i ok my 2 cents we use alky in racing and have for many years and different combos yes we use more but the cost is almost the same as the gas is and ( NO ) engine wear issues i was always told that and never found it to be true and yes its tougth on all kinds of metals but we use a racing alky not a blend like a street car will in WW2 the germans had profected alky to another level and were recycling garbage to make it but the US oil companys would not here of that so 50 years later we are dependant on other countrys because of the power of the big oil, enviomentalist, no more drilling alloud and watch me hug a tree group i am sure someone has a diif take jz

[Frosty]

Longest....run-on....sentence....ever :lol:;)

[Ian]

:stupid:

[Ian]

Oh and there is another pitfall to running ethanol that no one spoke of yet. How would you start a car running pure ethanol in the dead of winter in say alaska? because ethanol burns a lot cooler, it wont be easy to start a motor running ethanol in the cold weather.

[NJSPEEDER]

same way they start cars in far northern spots now. engine block heaters :)

[BigAls87Z28]

Oh and there is another pitfall to running ethanol that no one spoke of yet. How would you start a car running pure ethanol in the dead of winter in say alaska? because ethanol burns a lot cooler, it wont be easy to start a motor running ethanol in the cold weather.

Which is why its only 85% Ethanol, not 100%. Brazil has a seperate tank that injects gas into the engine upon start up.

[Ian]

oh okay, because I know alcohol race cars sometimes have to warm up on gasoline, but once they get enough heat into the motor they can run the alcohol.

[qwikz28]

if a car is running lean will higher octane gas lean it out even more?

[PBodyGT87]

whoa! so your saying e85 came out with expectations of it being only a temporary solution? i can live with that but i'm worried about people getting lazy and leaving that as the main power source.

and im definately exagerating the corrosiveness of ethanol. you wont see anything wearing out in your motor right away but a couple years straight of e85 will require some new parts. im pretty sure ethanol has no effect on aluminum too.

No, not temporary. But as for now, it IS still new, and will require lots of tests and studies as far and engine performance/wear and tear goes. So for right now, it's going to remain somewhat uncommen. when i said "for many many years"" i meant that if it ever were to go mainstream, it probably wouldn't be within our lifetime.

[qwikz28]

No, not temporary. But as for now, it IS still new, and will require lots of tests and studies as far and engine performance/wear and tear goes. So for right now, it's going to remain somewhat uncommen. when i said "for many many years"" i meant that if it ever were to go mainstream, it probably wouldn't be within our lifetime.
liz it probably never should. economically and practically it is not a solution by any means. it provides no gains over gasoline, and that sucks cause gasoline is horrible. i dont need to test it to tell you it will be troublesome. especially to older cars full of steel and iron.

[PBodyGT87]

i hope it doesn't catch on. limited engine life at a higher price is not my idea of a good time. especially when you see that the fuel will cost just as much or more per gallon as regular gas.
if the government or anyone else wants to reduce our need for imported oil i have a radical idea, START FUGGIN' DRILLING IN THE USA!!!!! the known reserves in our own country are enough to last for the better part of a century, and that is only what is known with a handful of research points on public lands. imagine how much oil is out there if someone was to actually go looking for it seriously.
oil is not in short supply in this world, it is jsut controled very well by the OPEC nations.

We have oil refineries here already. In fact, there's a big one in south jersey. As it stands, we already are using fuel from our own country,and combining it with the fuel we have to import, because we really don't have a whole lot. the problem is, having enough for "the better part of a century" doesn't help us at all when we run out of fuel in after "better years". Sure, great, if we used it all now, it would be cheap for us again, then we'd get old, and then we'd have to listen to our grandchildren bitch about how they don't like the civic hybrid you, grandpa dearest, chipped in to buy for them, cuz it's slow, and they want a car like grandpa had back in the "better part of the century" (but not grandpa's POS ford.... they'r talking about his f-body, when it ran, you know, like when it didnt have a whole in the block, :lol:) and you'll have to tell him to shove it, even though gas is 5 dollars a pint, because we used up all of our own reserve fuel back in the "better part of the century", and the arabs won't import to us for any less.

So let E85 have a run. We've all got gasoline powered cars, and we'll probably all be too broke to go out buying e85 cars and hyrbids. But if half the world is gonna hop on the tree hugger bandwagon, kill off some corn and make some fuel, and lessen the demand for fossil fuel, then let them. Because when demand increases, so does the price. No one is forcing you to run your car on better crocker's cooking lard or whatever other fuel we come up with. but damnit, if it minimizes the need for gasoline, let it catch on for some percent of the world.

[PBodyGT87]

liz it probably never should. economically and practically it is not a solution by any means. it provides no gains over gasoline, and that sucks cause gasoline is horrible. i dont need to test it to tell you it will be troublesome. especially to older cars full of steel and iron.

You will be dead by the time it would take over. so what do you care? I'm saying it wouldn't happen in our lifetime. and no one is asking you ro run your car, as it stands, on e85. the felfuel cars that run on it now have different components than the gasoline ones we already drive.

[qwikz28]

We have oil refineries here already. In fact, there's a big one in south jersey. As it stands, we already are using fuel from our own country,and combining it with the fuel we have to import, because we really don't have a whole lot. the problem is, having enough for "the better part of a century" doesn't help us at all when we run out of fuel in after "better years". Sure, great, if we used it all now, it would be cheap for us again, then we'd get old, and then we'd have to listen to our grandchildren bitch about how they don't like the civic hybrid you, grandpa dearest, chipped in to buy for them, cuz it's slow, and they want a car like grandpa had back in the "better part of the century" (but not grandpa's POS ford.... they'r talking about his f-body, when it ran, you know, like when it didnt have a whole in the block, :lol:) and you'll have to tell him you to shove it, even though gas is 5 dollars a pint, because we used up all of our own reserve fuel, and the arabs won't import to us for any less.

So let E85 have a run. We've all got gasoline powered cars, and we'll probably all be too broke to go out buying e85 cars and hyrbids. But if half the world is gonna hop on the tree hugger bandwagon, kill off some corn and make some fuel, and lessen the demand for fossil fuel, then let them. Because when demand increases, so does the price. No one is forcing you to run your car on better crocker's cooking lard or whatever other fuel we come up with. but damnit, if it minimizes the need for gasoline, let it catch on for some percent of the world.
wow. liz for president?

[PBodyGT87]

wow. liz for president?

do i have your vote?

[qwikz28]

do i have your vote?
yes ma'am :usa:

[PBodyGT87]

yes ma'am :usa:

cool. what about your hand in marriage. you can be my first egyptian.

[qwikz28]

cool. what about your hand in marriage. you can be my first egyptian.
nice i'll be the first arab in congress.

[Ian]

No one is forcing you to run your car on better crocker's cooking lard or whatever other fuel we come up with.

Brian has his own cooking lard? :rofl:

[PBodyGT87]

Brian has his own cooking lard? :rofl:

No, but his Pseudonym does.

[Ian]

joke killer :wink:

[Teds89IROC]

i hope it doesn't catch on. limited engine life at a higher price is not my idea of a good time. especially when you see that the fuel will cost just as much or more per gallon as regular gas.
if the government or anyone else wants to reduce our need for imported oil i have a radical idea, START FUGGIN' DRILLING IN THE USA!!!!! the known reserves in our own country are enough to last for the better part of a century, and that is only what is known with a handful of research points on public lands. imagine how much oil is out there if someone was to actually go looking for it seriously.
oil is not in short supply in this world, it is jsut controled very well by the OPEC nations.

Amen

~Ted

[The Fixer]

So let E85 have a run. We've all got gasoline powered cars, and we'll probably all be too broke to go out buying e85 cars and hyrbids. But if half the world is gonna hop on the tree hugger bandwagon, kill off some corn and make some fuel, and lessen the demand for fossil fuel, then let them. Because when demand increases, so does the price. No one is forcing you to run your car on better crocker's cooking lard or whatever other fuel we come up with. but damnit, if it minimizes the need for gasoline, let it catch on for some percent of the world.

Amen! The biggest sin in all of this is that it's going to be very difficult to keep older cars on the road. I'm not only talking about our hotrods and muscle cars. There are PLENTY OF people that can't afford to go out and spend $20-30K every few years on a new car, so they drive older used stuff.

I know I'm not going to be in the financial position to buy a "new" car for a very long time, so I gotta keep driving my "old" American iron. And, while the 8.5:1 compression ratio of the 4.0 in my Jeep is great for running on regular unleaded, it's gonna SUCK for this E85 crap.

[qwikz28]

i think Bill is gonna be the big winner in this whole mess after he has to tune our cars to run this high octane shiz

recipe list for new fuel:
new injectors and fuel pump.
retune
change oil more freuquently
change gas tank, lines, pump and other related items as needed
rebuild engine as needed

all this for a more expensive fuel that we are not sure if it will cause less polution then fossil fuel? and for some reason liz has me convinced its not too bad of an idea :shrug:

[NP_00'T/A]

Brian has his own cooking lard? :rofl:

Lmao, I see how it is Ian ! :)

[NJSPEEDER]

We have oil refineries here already. In fact, there's a big one in south jersey. As it stands, we already are using fuel from our own country,and combining it with the fuel we have to import, because we really don't have a whole lot. the problem is, having enough for "the better part of a century" doesn't help us at all when we run out of fuel in after "better years". Sure, great, if we used it all now, it would be cheap for us again, then we'd get old, and then we'd have to listen to our grandchildren bitch about how they don't like the civic hybrid you, grandpa dearest, chipped in to buy for them, cuz it's slow, and they want a car like grandpa had back in the "better part of the century" (but not grandpa's POS ford.... they'r talking about his f-body, when it ran, you know, like when it didnt have a whole in the block, :lol:) and you'll have to tell him to shove it, even though gas is 5 dollars a pint, because we used up all of our own reserve fuel back in the "better part of the century", and the arabs won't import to us for any less.

So let E85 have a run. We've all got gasoline powered cars, and we'll probably all be too broke to go out buying e85 cars and hyrbids. But if half the world is gonna hop on the tree hugger bandwagon, kill off some corn and make some fuel, and lessen the demand for fossil fuel, then let them. Because when demand increases, so does the price. No one is forcing you to run your car on better crocker's cooking lard or whatever other fuel we come up with. but damnit, if it minimizes the need for gasoline, let it catch on for some percent of the world.

i know about the refineries that we have in the US, but they don't exactly drill for the oil do they. we use less and less domestic oil every year despite the fact that every year we pop another exporatory drilling in here and there in the desert south west and in alaska just for find a few billion more barrels available.
ethanol is a poor solution because the supply side is disappearing, unlike oil which we keep finding more and more of domestically. with more and more farms going out of business, despite goverment attempts to step in and save them, the renewable resource that everyone loves to hug and hold will soon be buried under that same hippy ******** condo or the shopping center with the natural foods store they love.
hybrid and diesel technologies are far ahead of the enviromental curve all over the world. the US is jsut lagging behind and trying to put a bandaid on the situation.
for anyoen who doesn't believe in the power of hybrids or diesels, panoz won a sports car race earlier this season with a diesel and ran a hybrid very competitively at le masn about 3 years ago. the le mans effort only failed because the hybrid power plant was stranger than the transmission, they gave up when the third one blew to pieces
also, as an FYI, my camaro runs fine, it has run well since the day the engine swap was completed.

[qwikz28]

i know about the refineries that we have in the US, but they don't exactly drill for the oil do they. we use less and less domestic oil every year despite the fact that every year we pop another exporatory drilling in here and there in the desert south west and in alaska just for find a few billion more barrels available.
ethanol is a poor solution because the supply side is disappearing, unlike oil which we keep finding more and more of domestically. with more and more farms going out of business, despite goverment attempts to step in and save them, the renewable resource that everyone loves to hug and hold will soon be buried under that same hippy ******** condo or the shopping center with the natural foods store they love.
hybrid and diesel technologies are far ahead of the enviromental curve all over the world. the US is jsut lagging behind and trying to put a bandaid on the situation.
for anyoen who doesn't believe in the power of hybrids or diesels, panoz won a sports car race earlier this season with a diesel and ran a hybrid very competitively at le masn about 3 years ago. the le mans effort only failed because the hybrid power plant was stranger than the transmission, they gave up when the third one blew to pieces
also, as an FYI, my camaro runs fine, it has run well since the day the engine swap was completed.
alaska may possibly have enough oil to supply our a country but the environmentalists have to be dicks about it. i bet they'd shutup as soon as gas prices drop back below $2

[PBodyGT87]

Gas prices would only drop for maybe about our lifetime if we use our own oil. That crude oil we get the gas form takes years and years and YEARS to produce naturally, so we'd be use it all up from our own country and then be shot out of luck because it'd take another set of hundreds of years to get the oil supply back. We really don't have that much oil here, even if we start drilling. Again, no one is FORCING you to use e85, you may continue to use your gas. And I'm pretty sure, again, that they are NOT telling you to try running your gasoline powered cars on e85. The ones that run on e85 are MADE to run on e85. I dont see what the big deal is. Let some people use it. It'll cut down the demand for gasoline when less of the population is using it. That alone will make gas cheaper, sooner.

[qwikz28]

Gas prices would only drop for maybe about our lifetime if we use our own oil. That crude oil we get the gas form takes years and years and YEARS to produce naturally, so we'd be use it all up from our own country and then be shot out of luck because it'd take another set of hundreds of years to get the oil supply back. We really don't have that much oil here, even if we start drilling. Again, no one is FORCING you to use e85, you may continue to use your gas. And I'm pretty sure, again, that they are NOT telling you to try running your gasoline powered cars on e85. The ones that run on e85 are MADE to run on e85. I dont see what the big deal is. Let some people use it. It'll cut down the demand for gasoline when less of the population is using it. That alone will make gas cheaper, sooner.
you keep talking about our lifetime like we aren't in the process of finding alternative fuels as we speak. this is something just for the upcoming decade or two until we figure this hydrogen crap.

[PBodyGT87]

you keep talking about our lifetime like we aren't in the process of finding alternative fuels as we speak. this is something just for the upcoming decade or two until we figure this hydrogen crap.

We already ARE using our own fuel. But if like you say, we are only gonna do this for another 10, 20 years, then we don't need to drill anymore here.

[NJSPEEDER]

It'll cut down the demand for gasoline when less of the population is using it. That alone will make gas cheaper, sooner.

i think you are underestimating the greed of some people. the oil companies will NOT allow themselves to lose profit margain or gross income.
this is all proven by recent history. OPEC releases more production to the US market after they see sales falling off. prices drop briefly, then go back up again.
pricing for crude and refined fuels is not supply side, it is demand side. the introduction and backing of E85 by our government will not change that. prices will continue to rise every summer just in time for travel season just because the manufacturers know they can get away with it.

i am also not suggesting that we exclusively use and refine from our own domestic wells. i just wanted to point out that we can easily reduce the percentage reliance on imported crude for the next few hundred years based solely on the limited exploritory drilling that has already been done.

[PBodyGT87]

That's fine, but i still don't see anything wrong with a a few people who want to drive flex-fuel cars.

[Brando56894]

im all for the hydrogen cars of the (near) future, yea gas burns dirty as hell but we gotta use it as for e85 i could give a crap about it :D if im not mistaken i think some gas stations already use 10% e85 mixed in with regular gas

[qwikz28]

im all for the hydrogen cars of the (near) future, yea gas burns dirty as hell but we gotta use it as for e85 i could give a crap about it :D if im not mistaken i think some gas stations already use 10% e85 mixed in with regular gas
all gas stations are in the process of the switch and NJ is one of the first to do it first

[Ian]

two years ago when I was going to school out near Pittsburgh, the sunoco stations on the PA turnpike (rt 76) all said they contained 10% ethanol.

[BigAls87Z28]

So....let me make sure Im understanding this ok...

You guys wana make this...

http://www.markhenspeter.com/images/20050727204435_pict0116c.jpg


Into this....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/BigAlZ/stupidass.jpg


so that we can have gas below 2 bucks?

The MAIN point behind E85 will be and will continue to be the end of outside oil dependance, aka the Middle East. It does not matter how much oil WE have, we still NEED the middle east. WE dont have enough oil to support us for very long. No one said E85 will replace or will be manditory for every single car.
And its not mega expensive to own one!! You can get a 23k Impala that runs on E85 in its V6's. There is no major cost you get hit with when you buy an E85 vehicle. Maybe now, but if the parts are more common on vehicles, like they will be for GM, the economies of scale will take place, and it will be nothing to own one, unlike the ownership of a hybrid drive system.

[Ian]

Al get real.....how would they fit that huge tanker ship down that tiny river? they'd probably run a pipeline out to a shipping station. but in order to do that, those mountains would have to get leveled :lol:

[JL8Jeff]

Gas prices won't go back down much ever. The price of gas in Europe has been double what we pay for a long, long time. It has nothing to do with oil companies in the US, it's due to the world demand for oil and the available supply OPEC allows. With China and Japan demanding more oil it will only run the price up. So we need alternative mixtures or start drilling in the Artic(I don't know why we aren't since the cost of oil already justifies the increased cost to retrieve it). And while we're looking for other fuel supplies we need to reduce out consumption, plain and simple. There are no mini size pickups or SUV's anymore because we Americans got greedy and wanted bigger, bigger, bigger trucks! Look at the size of the original 4Runner to the current model, it's not even close! The S10 is gone, the Tacoma got bigger, the RAV4 got bigger, the Nissan got bigger. We're a bunch of spoiled brats. I've barely put 10K miles on my 4Runner and Camaro combined for the last 18 months. If people take the time to plan out trips and don't mash the gas pedal to the floor when the light turns green, we can reduce our consumption considerably. But that will never happen.

[PBodyGT87]

im all for the hydrogen cars of the (near) future, yea gas burns dirty as hell but we gotta use it as for e85 i could give a crap about it :D if im not mistaken i think some gas stations already use 10% e85 mixed in with regular gas

You are correct, two weeks ago when the gas stations were running out of fuel over the weekends it was because the fuel companies were awaiting the ethanol that they were mixing with gas.They couldn't deliver the fuel until they recieved it and had it mixed with the gas first. Chances are, you're local gas station has already done it. I know stations around my town are, like Brant's BP station with the shop that our neighbor runs.

[BigAls87Z28]

I did notice the 10% thing on a Lukoil station.

[BigAls87Z28]

BTW...read this fellas
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/eth_energy_bal.html

Since President Bush announced the Advanced Energy Initiative (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060131-6.html), there has been an increased interest in ethanol as a fuel. Cellulosic ethanol can be produced from fast growing trees, corn stover, grain straw, switchgrass, forest products, waste, and construction waste and may yield a higher energy balance than ethanol made from corn. You can learn more about cellulosic ethanol research by going to the U.S. Department of Energy's Biomass Program (http://eereweb.ee.doe.gov/biomass/index.html) Web Site.
[/URL]Today's ethanol is produced using corn, and an increased demand for ethanol means an additional market for corn, a more stable and profitable farming industry, and an increased level of energy security for our nation.

The production of ethanol is energy efficient as it yields almost 25 percent more energy than is used in growing the corn, harvesting it, and distilling it into ethanol. The most recent findings show that corn ethanol fuel is energy efficient and yields an energy output:input ratio of 1.6. To get further details and view graphical representations of the energy balance picture, go to: Ethanol - The Complete Energy Lifecycle Picture ([URL="http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_ethanol_brochure.pdf"]PDF 4 MB (http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/2005_ethanol_brochure.pdf)), developed by the U.S. Department of Energy.
Early ethanol plants were energy intensive, raising concerns as to whether the transportation fuel being produced was worth the energy going into making it. But the efficiency of corn ethanol production has increased over the last ten years and technical advancements have improved the net energy value of corn ethanol. Today, producing ethanol from corn using our domestic supplies of coal and natural gas achieves a net gain in the form of energy and helps displace the need for foreign oil.
One of the biggest critics of fuel ethanol is David Pimentel, Cornell University. He asserts that it takes about 70% more energy to grow corn and make ethanol from it than what goes into the ethanol. Among other things, however, his analysis is based on old data and does not give any credit for the energy value of the animal feed co-product of making ethanol. On August 23, 2005, the National Corn Growers Association hosted The Debate on the Net Energy Balance of Ethanol (http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2005/august/082305.htm), which directly addresses and refutes Pimentel's claims.

[BonzoHansen]

Maybe is we can make gas out of plants, we can save some farms. All they grow in NJ is oversized & overproced houses.

[jin1481]

what have i started...

[BigAls87Z28]

I dunno, but that website ended it.
E85 does zero damage to engines made to handle E85. There are no draw backs of it unless you were to put it in a car that is not ready for E85. E85 will cut down on forign oil consumption, America FTW.
E85 is no longer energy consuming to make, and as per that web site, they have found easier cheaper and better ways to make it.
E85 cars add little to no cost to a car, unlike the mega expensive hybrid systems.
And in the end, a Silverado with E85 capability will burn less gas per year then a Prius hybrid, and you dont have to look like a tool in ugly looking car to save the world.
GM>*
The End.

[84HOtransam]

ive read extensive research over at TGO about a guy in the midwest using E85 in an dodge strip/street car.

he found the car had to be jetted 146% more with the E85 which increased fuel comsuption even though the E85 was 106 octane.

With the prices at the time of his research he found that even though he needed 146% more fuel overall he saved 25% on fuel costs over the time of his study.

[slugger27nj]

Brazil has all but eliminated it's dependency of foreign oil, so it can be done. Take note of the prices in the photo in the NY Times article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/americas/10brazil.html?ex=1302321600&en=03adc82c67600388&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[qwikz28]

ok i had read that ethanol is soluble into metals which was false as it is only (extremely) soluble in water. which is a good thing. ethanol isnt looking so bad.

[Savage_Messiah]

no one is FORCING you to use e85, you may continue to use your gas. And I'm pretty sure, again, that they are NOT telling you to try running your gasoline powered cars on e85.

...

You are correct, two weeks ago when the gas stations were running out of fuel over the weekends it was because the fuel companies were awaiting the ethanol that they were mixing with gas.They couldn't deliver the fuel until they recieved it and had it mixed with the gas first. Chances are, you're local gas station has already done it. I know stations around my town are, like Brant's BP station with the shop that our neighbor runs.

if it's being mixed into the gas already how are they not forcing it??

E85 does zero damage to engines made to handle E85. There are no draw backs of it unless you were to put it in a car that is not ready for E85.

Again... I'm pretty sure my engine's not made to handle it... so if they're already mixing it into the gas then what does it matter if some engines can handle it?

[NJSPEEDER]

I dunno, but that website ended it.
E85 does zero damage to engines made to handle E85.

how does that end it when about 2% of the vehicles currently on the road are equiped to use E85? where does that leave the rest of us? oh wait i know, spending more money!!! wahoo!! we are getting away from foreign oil by spending mroe money!!! yippeeeee!!!!

what a great solution. :roll:

funny how europe has been steadily reducing polution output and consumption for years by taking advantage of advances in diesel technology while the US tries to go off in it's own little direction that is less developed and costs more.
maybe several years down the road ethanol will be the reasonable solution. for now it woudl make sense to use existing technology instead of trying to come up with another multi billion dollar save teh world plan that the next administration will forget.

[BigAls87Z28]

The 10% is not enough to do damage. They wouldnt make it happen if it was gunna cause major stuff to cars. 85% might to an unmoddified engine, but not 10%.

Again, you are not understanding Tim.
No one is forcing you or anyone else to use E85, but there are cars that are made for it, and can run on it. Not even 2% of gas stations in America carry E85. Who is spending more money?

Point is, E85 is a great new source of fuel for cars. Will it take over ALL gas stations? No, but like Diesel, there will be a seperate pump just for E85 cars. Lets not get our panties in a bunch, no one is gunna force E85 into your gas tank.

[BigAls87Z28]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

yet another article.

Case closed. E85 will offer us better gas and for cheaper. This might cause the price of oil itself to come down as people will not need it as much and will not be in demand. Its a win win for everyone.
Dont wana use it? Fine. Id be more then happy to use E85.

[Brando56894]

I did notice the 10% thing on a Lukoil station.

yea i forget where i was gettin filled up at (maybe it was at one of the lukoils on the GSP) but i looked over and where they put they store they nozzle it said something about 10% e85

and Al youd be more then happy to use it on your current car or one thats made to run on e85?

[qwikz28]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

yet another article.

Case closed. E85 will offer us better gas and for cheaper. This might cause the price of oil itself to come down as people will not need it as much and will not be in demand. Its a win win for everyone.
Dont wana use it? Fine. Id be more then happy to use E85.
i just read on ls1tech that ford did side by side dynos of a car that was tuned specifically for pure (well 98%) ethanol and it made more power then when it had been tuned for gasoline. i hate you guys, i came into this thread depressed about ethanol and now i'm kinda excited to make the switch and tune my car for e85.

i think the real question is now if america can supply us with enough ethanol to make e85 without creating another dust bowl

[Ian]

how does that end it when about 2% of the vehicles currently on the road are equiped to use E85? where does that leave the rest of us? oh wait i know, spending more money!!! wahoo!! we are getting away from foreign oil by spending mroe money!!! yippeeeee!!!!

what a great solution. :roll:

funny how europe has been steadily reducing polution output and consumption for years by taking advantage of advances in diesel technology while the US tries to go off in it's own little direction that is less developed and costs more.

let me get this straight. Europe has reduced polution and consumption by making advances in diesel technology. I understand that. BUT....You'd still have to buy a new car for you to reap the benefits....so its really the same either way you look at it. buy a new E85 car or buy a new diesel. I't would be cheaper to convert a car to run on E85 than it would be to buy a new diesel car or truck.

The point I'm making is you cant retrofit most of todays technology, so the only option to see the benefits of the new technology is to buy a new car or truck. Both here in the states and across the pond in europe, you'd have to buy a new vehicle to see any sort of gain over what we all have now.

[NJSPEEDER]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

yet another article.

Case closed. E85 will offer us better gas and for cheaper. This might cause the price of oil itself to come down as people will not need it as much and will not be in demand. Its a win win for everyone.
Dont wana use it? Fine. Id be more then happy to use E85.

you are still missing the same point about fuel pricing. the fuel companies are not going to give up their profits. they will merely roll the lower costs into better margin and leave you and i stuck paying the same or with in a few cents of what we pay now.
need proof, diesel. it costs about 40% LESS to produce diesel as it is sold at the pump in the US. is teh price 40% lower? no, it is usually with in $.10 of regular gas. why? because they know a captive market when they see it.
this is high school level economics. if someone NEEDS something, you can stick it to them as hard as you want, and if you competitors follow suit(anyone who watches gas station prices knows how this works) then you can just keep on jamming penny after penny out of them.
ethanol as an additive or as a primary source only has a shot at changing the prices at the pump for a very brief period of time, if at all. as of right now every BP and Luk i see is priced the same as the gas station they are next to. so that 10/15/whatever percentage of ethanol is that they are saving produciton costs on isn't helping anyone.

Profit > Being fair to consumers

[NJSPEEDER]

let me get this straight. Europe has reduced polution and consumption by making advances in diesel technology. I understand that. BUT....You'd still have to buy a new car for you to reap the benefits....so its really the same either way you look at it. buy a new E85 car or buy a new diesel. I't would be cheaper to convert a car to run on E85 than it would be to buy a new diesel car or truck.

The point I'm making is you cant retrofit most of todays technology, so the only option to see the benefits of the new technology is to buy a new car or truck. Both here in the states and across the pond in europe, you'd have to buy a new vehicle to see any sort of gain over what we all have now.

my point is that the changeover to ethanol technology is more expensive than existing technology for production, research, and end user purchase(because we get to pay for the first two)
diesel already exists and is a mass market item. you do not need to build brand new refineries to produce european diesel fuel at volume, you just need to change some things to create the higher quality of diesel that they see in europe. it is a higher quality of fuel with less sediment that will go right into any existing diesel engine and only create a better runnign vehicle with no component upgrades needed.
there is also the existing technology of better diesel engines in europe. most make more power, all get much better mileage, all require less maintenance, and most burn just as clean or cleaer than their gasoline counter parts.
i am not talking about far reaching boutique companies, i am talking about Ford, MB, BMW, VW, GM, Hyundai, and prolly a few dozen other companies that have this technology already in hand and ready to sell.
why should the government drop billions into grants and subsidized(sp?) loans to pay for research and development of new technology that won't save me any money when technology that would help me buy less fuel in the first place already exists?

[BigAls87Z28]

Low-Sulfer diesel is not yet ready.
E85 is here now, they just need to expand it. If a 3rd world country like Brazil can do it, something tells me that the richest country in the world can do it too.

[Tru2Chevy]

Low-Sulfer diesel is not yet ready.
E85 is here now, they just need to expand it. If a 3rd world country like Brazil can do it, something tells me that the richest country in the world can do it too.

I think you missed the point of Tim's post.

Expanding the availability of E85 will be more expensive than making some changes to current refineries to produce low-sulfur diesel. Gas stations all over the country are already selling diesel fuel, so switching is easy. There are also already lots of vehicles on the road ready to accept this new diesel fuel, whereas very few cars on the road today can run E85.

Low Sulfur diesel will be coming out in the fall, and there should be a large increase in the amount of diesel passenger cars sold here to take advantage of this new fuel. This would save a considerable amount of money over trying to switch over everything to E85.

I'm not saying that E85 is bad, it's just going to be more expensive to implement.

- Justin

[NJSPEEDER]

Low-Sulfer diesel is not yet ready.
E85 is here now, they just need to expand it. If a 3rd world country like Brazil can do it, something tells me that the richest country in the world can do it too.

the brazilian government took over the enitre oil industry. brazils domestic fuel system operates at a loss that they recover by exporting oil, most of it to the USA.
that is how a second tier economic nation with half the number of consumers to account for can do something like that.
since the US government has no plans to take aadvantage of any of our own resources, that system won't work here.