E-85 and ethanol fuel alternative *rant*

[jin1481]

Just saw something about it on motortrend. It sounds and looks like a great way to wain off of imported oil and a way to get more money back into the states, where it needs to be. Its great gives me hope that we arent going to turn into japans community of ridicolously small econmic cars, believe me ive been living in okinawa japan for nearly two years now. It even says it burns cooler, cleaner, and increases performance as well as help the enviroment stuff. Hopefully this stuff takes hold and its as good as its being made out to be.

sorry first good thing ive seen doing with fuel, auto performance, and the economy in the united states of bush.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by jin1481

Just saw something about it on motortrend. It sounds and looks like a great way to wain off of imported oil and a way to get more money back into the states, where it needs to be. Its great gives me hope that we arent going to turn into japans community of ridicolously small econmic cars, believe me ive been living in okinawa japan for nearly two years now. It even says it burns cooler, cleaner, and increases performance as well as help the enviroment stuff. Hopefully this stuff takes hold and its as good as its being made out to be.

sorry first good thing ive seen doing with fuel, auto performance, and the economy in the united states of bush.

i dont know what you've been reading but it was wrong on all accounts.

from what i have learned in chemistry ethanol is EXTREMELY solvent and is known to be corrosive to certain metals and does not have the lubricating properties of other substances so it will cause premature wear to our engines.

as for performance and mileage: everyone's car is designed to run on the old gas so our timing is all off now. we can all expect about a 10-20% decrease in both HP and gas mileage with this new gas. why is this? ethanol bumps the octane up a bit but is very very unstable and can burn quicker or slower without warning. it is possible to adjust the timing to make up for this somewhat but because of ethanols instability it will be hard to make your car consistant.

is ethanol the end all be all? **** no! 1 gallon of ethanol requires 131,000BTUs to produce, but only has an energy value of 77,000BTUs. so we are wasting energy making energy? how is that helping the environment? how is that efficiant. if our cars could run on 100% ethanol we would need 97% of america's land to produce enough corn to make 1 year supply to drive our automobiles! (E85 is 85% ethanol so that would need ~80% of our country)

in the end we now have decreased gas mileage, higher gas prices because every gas station has to modify their equipent cause of ethanols corrosive properties, our cars are slower, and our piston rings are becoming more worn more quickly

on the other hand it does burn cooler and cleaner like you mentioned but remember there was a manufacturing process to which could offset the cleaner burning fuel. but who knows

edit: one more thing: ethanol costs $1.74/gallon... gasoline costs $0.95/gallon

another thing is if you start running your car on E85 you would need to change your oil every 1000 miles or so which sucks cause i can do that in a week sometimes

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, since the Arab is gunna back his oil loving buddies, sure he would answer like that.

The only thing that you said that is right is that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of energy, therefor decreasing gas milage as it takes more ethanol fuel to power the engine.
As for it being a solvent and being corrosive, not 100% true. Vehicles will most deffinatly need to have an updated fuel system, it wont hurt or destroy anything. And gas isnt ment to lubricate ****, thats why we have oil.
Yes, it does take more energy to make ethanol then it does gasoline. What the big driver of E85 is the end of dependance on foriegn oil to fuel our cars. Brazil has gone from an 80% to 30% dependance on foriegn oil by using its own sugar crops to fuel its cars. And in fact, the Ethanol gas they sell is MUCH cheaper to buy then gas.
What we see with high gas prices is not because of our gas guzzling SUV's or super mega V8 supercars. If what the Arab said is true, and gas is that low to buy on the grand scale, then the price we are paying at the pump is being driven up by the gas companies. They hide behind national disasters and growing economies. E85 could help America cut down on foriegn oil, and Im sure that we can find a way to maintain performance and gas milage with using E85. Higher compression engines with direct injection could deffinatly spawn support for E85.

[qwikz28]

well we can compare the ethanol to gasoline but personally i dont think that is the answer. hydrogen fuel cells have proved promising but the problem is working out the minor kinks in problems such as hydrogen explosions in the event of an accident.

ethanol makes a great temporary solution but i dont see it as the future of energy. e85 will eat up steel and certain rubbers over time and that will prove to be annoying after we have to replace every fuel system component and do engine rebuilds every 3-5 years or so.

hydrogen on the other hand is simple. the electrolysis of water yields great energy and if i recall correctly, no emissions.

i dont think we can go back to gasonline though, forget it. it burns dirty and is expensive as ****. its been a great 100 years gasoline but its time to move on

[NJSPEEDER]

E85 is only currently cheaper than gas because it is not taxed as heavily. give it some time and we can all watch it hit the same price per gallon. in terms of production cost it is only slightly more costly than fuel, that would cost would drop if production broadened some more.
ethonol still acts as more of a solvent that traditional gasoline and will shorten the service life of 95% of the engines currently operating on americas highways.
the gas companies don't mind cause they can look good to the hippies, the car companies like it cause they can charge $500 more for an engine and sell more cars since they won't be lasting as long, and the farmers love it because it is basically free money to be made from government financed crops.
ethanol can and will lower emissions, but it is at the long term expense of our wallets.
when the government/auto manufacturers/tree huggers gets its head out of its collective ass and starts persuing diesel and hybrid technologies we will all be better off.

[BigAls87Z28]

Hyrdogen Fuel Cells is the future but there are still major compliactions, the same complications that hinder E85 such as infastructure (network of gas stations, processessing plants, etc), and also takes more engergy to process hyrodgen fuel. GM as well as many other car makers are working on creating hydrogen cars.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

E85 is only currently cheaper than gas because it is not taxed as heavily. give it some time and we can all watch it hit the same price per gallon. in terms of production cost it is only slightly more costly than fuel, that would cost would drop if production broadened some more.
ethonol still acts as more of a solvent that traditional gasoline and will shorten the service life of 95% of the engines currently operating on americas highways.
the gas companies don't mind cause they can look good to the hippies, the car companies like it cause they can charge $500 more for an engine and sell more cars since they won't be lasting as long, and the farmers love it because it is basically free money to be made from government financed crops.
ethanol can and will lower emissions, but it is at the long term expense of our wallets.
when the government/auto manufacturers/tree huggers gets its head out of its collective ass and starts persuing diesel and hybrid technologies we will all be better off.

Id gladdly pay 500 bucks then the 5k preimum (before markup) you pay now for a Hyrbid Prius? Most people will never ever recoupe the money they spent on a Prius and most of those tree hugging douche bags spent THOUSANDS over sticker just to say they had one!! Best part is, many people are not coming near the numbers Toyota and the EPA claim!! While its still getting 40mpg or so, that is not saving the world any!! That is not reducing the need for foriegn oil at all! It still uses 100% gas to drive its engine when its activated!!
Next year, GM will introduce its Two-Mode Hybrid system. That, combined with E85 capacity and Active Fuel Managment will yield us numbers never ever seen before in an SUV. Now imagine such technology in a smaller, lighter, 2 door, 2+2 seater sports coupe!! Could you imagine getting 40+mpg and having 400+hp?
The BioDiesel idea is a good one, as the fuel is looked to as waste right now (oil left over from deep friers and such). That there kills 2 birds with one stone.

[qwikz28]

F the bs and stop working on this ethanol crap and give me hydrogen

[BigAls87Z28]

They are working on Hyrdogen.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

They are working on Hyrdogen.

then whats the point of wasting time on other fuel sources? spend those resources and engineering time into fuel cells.

[BigAls87Z28]

They have, but E85 can be done NOW! Everyone bitches about GM doing stuff "in the future" and nothing NOW. Toyota isnt making money hand over fist with the Prius because they waited for hybrid technology, they lauched it NOW.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Well, since the Arab is gunna back his oil loving buddies, sure he would answer like that.

The only thing that you said that is right is that Ethanol does not produce the same amount of energy, therefor decreasing gas milage as it takes more ethanol fuel to power the engine.
As for it being a solvent and being corrosive, not 100% true. Vehicles will most deffinatly need to have an updated fuel system, it wont hurt or destroy anything. And gas isnt ment to lubricate ****, thats why we have oil.
Yes, it does take more energy to make ethanol then it does gasoline. What the big driver of E85 is the end of dependance on foriegn oil to fuel our cars. Brazil has gone from an 80% to 30% dependance on foriegn oil by using its own sugar crops to fuel its cars. And in fact, the Ethanol gas they sell is MUCH cheaper to buy then gas.
What we see with high gas prices is not because of our gas guzzling SUV's or super mega V8 supercars. If what the Arab said is true, and gas is that low to buy on the grand scale, then the price we are paying at the pump is being driven up by the gas companies. They hide behind national disasters and growing economies. E85 could help America cut down on foriegn oil, and Im sure that we can find a way to maintain performance and gas milage with using E85. Higher compression engines with direct injection could deffinatly spawn support for E85.

it's not??? when the prices go up and so do their profits it sorta makes me wonder...

[PBodyGT87]

Okay, so i know that you are all concerned with how much energy it takes to make E85 fuel to begin with. When they use the corn and refine it to get the ethanol, there is a ton of this bi-product material that does not go into the fuel and this bi-product waste is almost half of the amount of ethanol each batch produces, which... is a lot of waste.

HOWEVER: The bi-product can be recycled to make a more crude oil to run the machines on that refine the corn. so it would all get cycled around. That's not too bad now.

(watched a whole speacial on E85 on TV)

[Savage_Messiah]

will it waste away engines like Egypt is saying??

[PBodyGT87]

you have to take into consideration that anything that is going to run on e85 or crude bio-oils is going to be updated engine wise so that wear and tear of engines will be minimized. stuff breaks down now as it is with fossil fuels, so what's the difference? they aren't looking to totally convert, at least not for many many years. we are just looking to decrease the need to rely on foreign fuel.

[Dark_Knight7096]

Bad news for Hybrid owners anyway, something that isn't made explicitly known is the fact that about 6-9 years down the line, your battery for your electric motor is going to take a **** and you're going to have to replace it. Replacement cost? Not too much, you know that 8K or so you saved on gasoline by having a hybrid? Yea, save that, because you WILL need it. And all that good stuff you did for the environment by not making as much emissions will just about offset the long-term ecological disaster from all the batteries from all the hybrids that have to be disposed of. I'm a big fan of the fuel-cell idea! There is an emission too, it is not totally emission free. Let's see, you get some hydrogen together and you oxygenate it, hmm, hydrogen and oxygen what do they make when they are combined. Oh wait, that's right WATER! There are several cities that have buses that run on fuel-cells, I think NJTransit has a couple. There are fuel-cell cars in california. It's a totally renewable energy source! Also I'm all for bio-diesels too btw.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by PBodyGT87

you have to take into consideration that anything that is going to run on e85 or crude bio-oils is going to be updated engine wise so that wear and tear of engines will be minimized. stuff breaks down now as it is with fossil fuels, so what's the difference? they aren't looking to totally convert, at least not for many many years. we are just looking to decrease the need to rely on foreign fuel.

whoa! so your saying e85 came out with expectations of it being only a temporary solution? i can live with that but i'm worried about people getting lazy and leaving that as the main power source.

and im definately exagerating the corrosiveness of ethanol. you wont see anything wearing out in your motor right away but a couple years straight of e85 will require some new parts. im pretty sure ethanol has no effect on aluminum too.

[NJSPEEDER]

hybrids are coming down in price, if more companies got involved we would see that price drop even quicker. currently the price saved on fuel over service life has been shown to save thousands over the extra expense of purchase, something no other alternative drive/source systems can even come close to claiming.
biodiesel is a good technology, buit it isn't ever going to be a savior because there is currently only 1 mass production operation in the country and it can only supply enough to feed 2 fuel stations(i forget where they are, but willie nelson is an investor). biobased diesel development woudl also end up being hampered by the same supply side expense as ethanol since current prodution of raw materials in this country is not enough to match demands as a food source and as a fuel source combined.
ethanol does not have any negative effect on engine parts while running, it is when the engine is turned off that the fun begins. since there is still some fuel present inside the engine when it is shut off, that is where your corrosion problems begin. current coating technology and evap systems help some, but most of the atomized fuel is still lef tin the engine to settle on pistons and valve faces to corrode the parts.

a little off topic, one very important thing that seems to be left out of fossil fuel debates is that cars are not the biggest users of fossil fuels. the rubber and plastics industries are. just though about that and though it was odd that no one ever says anything about using fewer zip lock bags or buying longer lasting tires to save teh enviroment.

[enRo]

WTF is Ethanol 85?

[JPiZZiJP]

Funny a thread was started about this... I was reading an article about it online a week or two ago while I was in Atlantic City and didn't have time to make a post to ask you whores your opinions lol...

[jin1481]

its a pretty good topic, good for the eviroment, good for economy, good for performance, not good for engine life. its a real good topic i would like to see it take hold, i hope the 2010 camaro uses it so i dont have to worry about it guzzling gas and funding an oil war.

[NJSPEEDER]

i hope it doesn't catch on. limited engine life at a higher price is not my idea of a good time. especially when you see that the fuel will cost just as much or more per gallon as regular gas.
if the government or anyone else wants to reduce our need for imported oil i have a radical idea, START FUGGIN' DRILLING IN THE USA!!!!! the known reserves in our own country are enough to last for the better part of a century, and that is only what is known with a handful of research points on public lands. imagine how much oil is out there if someone was to actually go looking for it seriously.
oil is not in short supply in this world, it is jsut controled very well by the OPEC nations.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

i hope it doesn't catch on. limited engine life at a higher price is not my idea of a good time. especially when you see that the fuel will cost just as much or more per gallon as regular gas.
if the government or anyone else wants to reduce our need for imported oil i have a radical idea, START FUGGIN' DRILLING IN THE USA!!!!! the known reserves in our own country are enough to last for the better part of a century, and that is only what is known with a handful of research points on public lands. imagine how much oil is out there if someone was to actually go looking for it seriously.
oil is not in short supply in this world, it is jsut controled very well by the OPEC nations.

Tell that to the fuggin tree-huggers.

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

i dont know what you've been reading but it was wrong on all accounts.

from what i have learned in chemistry ethanol is EXTREMELY solvent and is known to be corrosive to certain metals and does not have the lubricating properties of other substances so it will cause premature wear to our engines.

as for performance and mileage: everyone's car is designed to run on the old gas so our timing is all off now. we can all expect about a 10-20% decrease in both HP and gas mileage with this new gas. why is this? ethanol bumps the octane up a bit but is very very unstable and can burn quicker or slower without warning. it is possible to adjust the timing to make up for this somewhat but because of ethanols instability it will be hard to make your car consistant.

is ethanol the end all be all? **** no! 1 gallon of ethanol requires 131,000BTUs to produce, but only has an energy value of 77,000BTUs. so we are wasting energy making energy? how is that helping the environment? how is that efficiant. if our cars could run on 100% ethanol we would need 97% of america's land to produce enough corn to make 1 year supply to drive our automobiles! (E85 is 85% ethanol so that would need ~80% of our country)

in the end we now have decreased gas mileage, higher gas prices because every gas station has to modify their equipent cause of ethanols corrosive properties, our cars are slower, and our piston rings are becoming more worn more quickly

on the other hand it does burn cooler and cleaner like you mentioned but remember there was a manufacturing process to which could offset the cleaner burning fuel. but who knows

edit: one more thing: ethanol costs $1.74/gallon... gasoline costs $0.95/gallon

another thing is if you start running your car on E85 you would need to change your oil every 1000 miles or so which sucks cause i can do that in a week sometimes

i ok my 2 cents we use alky in racing and have for many years and different combos yes we use more but the cost is almost the same as the gas is and ( NO ) engine wear issues i was always told that and never found it to be true and yes its tougth on all kinds of metals but we use a racing alky not a blend like a street car will in WW2 the germans had profected alky to another level and were recycling garbage to make it but the US oil companys would not here of that so 50 years later we are dependant on other countrys because of the power of the big oil, enviomentalist, no more drilling alloud and watch me hug a tree group i am sure someone has a diif take jz

[Frosty]

Longest....run-on....sentence....ever