Holland Tunnel Bombing plot uncovered

[shane27]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202518,00.html
amazing how they found out, the FBI monitered chat rooms used by foreign extremists...remember how everyone was complaining about bush spying on us and all that crap...well it just saved the holland tunnel and many lives, intresting.

[Tsar]

wow people still use chat rooms? newbs...

[GP99GT]

rofl chat rooms

[camarokev]

remember how everyone was complaining about bush spying on us and all that crap...well it just saved the holland tunnel and many lives, intresting.

I've been saying that for a VERY long time- the PATRIOT act might cut into a citizen's privacy, but to me, the sacrifice is WELL worth it. What did people want Bush to do? Nothing? If he had done nothing, and elected to not endorse the PATRIOT act, I can guarantee you that it would make it MUCH easier for terrorists to try and do something such as this bombing to our country.

And, in spite of all of that, you STILL have some liberals saying, "THE NERVE OF OUR PRESIDENT, blah blah blah blah"... okay, fine... let's not let the government take a proactive stance and instead lets sit by the wayside and let the terrorists that we do in fact have living here among us (ever seen the movie Arlington Road?) take advantage of the fact that we have no way to spy on them. Please.

(end rant).

[Tsar]

dude if someone wants to blows something up, they will believe me. you know its easy to make a pipe bomb, then put it in a can of ball bearings/screws and drop it in a populated area... its been done before.

[camarokev]

i agree man, i agree... but still, creating a pipe-bomb and blowing up the holland tunnel are in two separate categories, wouldn't you agree? We're talking about preventing the big things that the people who were responsible wouldn't even be caught for most times, had not the government caught them in the act. If someone blows up a pipe bomb in a crowded area, that person is either a) GOING to be caught, or b) GOING to be dead. Not so with the terrorists that plan big things.... who is that guy still out there that we can't find yet? Bin Laden??? lol

[Savage_Messiah]

It's funny to see how a country ruled by fear, which we once despised, has become what this country is. And by funny I mean pathetic.

[Tsar]

i agree man, i agree... but still, creating a pipe-bomb and blowing up the holland tunnel are in two separate categories, wouldn't you agree? We're talking about preventing the big things that the people who were responsible wouldn't even be caught for most times, had not the government caught them in the act. If someone blows up a pipe bomb in a crowded area, that person is either a) GOING to be caught, or b) GOING to be dead. Not so with the terrorists that plan big things.... who is that guy still out there that we can't find yet? Bin Laden??? lol
yea i do agree that it would be sligthly harder to blow up Holland tunnel then to kill hundreads of people with a pipe bomb during a parade but they are kinda close. and bout the dying part - not really you can find instructions on the interted how to hook up timer to that thing. how do i know? my friend makes them and lets just say they blow **** up pretty good. one about the size of a finger blew a computer monitor completely apart... he's now making one the size of an arm... the sad thing he got all that stuff from browsing an internet, if an average 20 year old can do it so can any terrorist.

[79CamaroDiva]

I was just talking about this with a friend of mine when we were on our way back from manhattan monday night. The terrorists probably aren't going to use plane's again, that's been done. I don't think they care if they kill a lot of people, they care about what kind of damage they do to our country. People are just collateral. The twin towers were not only a symbol of pride for us, but they were the World Trade Center, hundreds or thousands of businesses were lost, it hurt us financially, the lives lost didn't matter to them one way or another.

If they take out tunnels and bridges, that would devastate our country. Maybe they don't attack NYC again, but if they did, and took out the George Washington, Third Avenue, Willis Avenue, Triborough, Queensborough, Williamsburgh, Manhattan, and Brooklyn bridges, along with the Queens Midtown, Lincoln, Holland, and Brooklyn Battery Tunnels imagine the chaos. The only way in to or out of NYC would be via Ferry. Complete pandemonium would result.

[camarokev]

yeah... I've thought about that Melissa. People are just collateral in the equation. I just hope nothing happens to NY for the next 2 months- as I type this I sit on the 51st floor of a building with absolutely NO stinking protection against a plane (even though I agree that wont be done again), but we do have a fabulous "evacuation plan"... bleh.

Tsar- sorry, you seem to know more about Pipe-Bombs than I do. (Note to self, don't piss off you or your friend) :-P

[Tsar]

I was just talking about this with a friend of mine when we were on our way back from manhattan monday night. The terrorists probably aren't going to use plane's again, that's been done. I don't think they care if they kill a lot of people, they care about what kind of damage they do to our country. People are just collateral. The twin towers were not only a symbol of pride for us, but they were the World Trade Center, hundreds or thousands of businesses were lost, it hurt us financially, the lives lost didn't matter to them one way or another.

If they take out tunnels and bridges, that would devastate our country. Maybe they don't attack NYC again, but if they did, and took out the George Washington, Third Avenue, Willis Avenue, Triborough, Queensborough, Williamsburgh, Manhattan, and Brooklyn bridges, along with the Queens Midtown, Lincoln, Holland, and Brooklyn Battery Tunnels imagine the chaos. The only way in to or out of NYC would be via Ferry. Complete pandemonium would result.
well i dont think you are right about casualties. u do know they hate americans, as in people. I mean when they were running trucks with explosives into a buildings im pretty sure they were going in for people... not a silly building. Oh and if they wanted to blow up something that meant to you a lot they would take out the statue of liberty, after all thats what you're known for around the world.

[camarokev]

well i dont think you are right about casualties. u do know they hate americans, as in people. I mean when they were running trucks with explosives into a buildings im pretty sure they were going in for people... not a silly building. Oh and if they wanted to blow up something that meant to you a lot they would take out the statue of liberty, after all thats what you're known for around the world.

k... this one I disagree with. Not that I know much about the financial world, but I am working on Wall Street in the city for a summer. Working here, I see the thing that makes this country go around.... MONEY, and LOTS of it. I'd venture a guess that yes, terrorists do hate us, obviously, but they are smart. The "big picture" tells us that when 9/11 happened, not only did we lose thousands of lives, but the stock market was shut down for days. This equals losses of money in the billions and billions of dollars for the US- crippling the economy, and thus damaging the country more as a whole, rather than just killing the citizens. The effect is stronger.

And, as far as symbols, that is one thing that I would disagree with to a point. Taking out the Statue of Liberty, while it would be a MAJOR slap in the face, wouldn't hurt anyone, wouldn't hurt our economy, etc. It's just a statue. However, where was that 4th plane headed for again on 9/11? The whitehouse. Talk about a symbol, AND the damaging effects it would have on our president, economy, etc.

When it comes to political issues, its always the big picture that matters.

[Savage_Messiah]

Kevin nailed it, their attack on Washington DC failed last time, if there really IS another attack being planned they're not gonna go for NYC again.

[Tsar]

k... this one I disagree with. Not that I know much about the financial world, but I am working on Wall Street in the city for a summer. Working here, I see the thing that makes this country go around.... MONEY, and LOTS of it. I'd venture a guess that yes, terrorists do hate us, obviously, but they are smart. The "big picture" tells us that when 9/11 happened, not only did we lose thousands of lives, but the stock market was shut down for days. This equals losses of money in the billions and billions of dollars for the US- crippling the economy, and thus damaging the country more as a whole, rather than just killing the citizens. The effect is stronger.

And, as far as symbols, that is one thing that I would disagree with to a point. Taking out the Statue of Liberty, while it would be a MAJOR slap in the face, wouldn't hurt anyone, wouldn't hurt our economy, etc. It's just a statue. However, where was that 4th plane headed for again on 9/11? The whitehouse. Talk about a symbol, AND the damaging effects it would have on our president, economy, etc.

When it comes to political issues, its always the big picture that matters.
i guy who straps himself with explosives doesnt know much about finances. Also do you know about other terrorist acts around the world? i mean everyone keeps talking about 9/11 and stuff, and sure it was huge but its not the only one. It did hurt the economy but majority of terrorist activity doesnt really do it. or maybe im missing the big picture so point me in the right direction i guess. How does blowing up and embacy hurt your economy, blowing up apartment buildings, dragging dead soldiers thru a main street, blowing up a bomb during a parade and killing 100s, chooping someones head on TV (ive seen it done a few times). I can go on and on cuz ive seen alot of those. Sure they are bad and stuff but do they really have that much to say when it comes to economy - ehh i dont think so.

As far as Statue of Liberty goes. Its what represents America to people outside of this country, just like twin towers were. how do i know - im not from around here if you didnt know. See when people outside of this country talk about america (in a good way) they dont think white house, your economy, your big bad military that can slaughter all in a milisecond, or your nuclear arsenal. They think about big ass buldings, NYC, statue of liberty, happy cows from california, big gas guzzling cars, mcdonalds, beaches and fat girls in bikinis. You take out what represents America and to some your existance will seize.

for the retarded* im not saying if someone destroys statue of liberty the US will disappear of the face of the world.

[Tsar]

Kevin nailed it, their attack on Washington DC failed last time, if there really IS another attack being planned they're not gonna go for NYC again.
the problem with that thinking is, everyone expects them to do it. usually the unexpected comes.

[shane27]

plain hijackings ended on 911
anyone who hijacks a plane will be bombarded by the passengers onboard, becasue they will have nothing to loose.

It's funny to see how a country ruled by fear, which we once despised, has become what this country is. And by funny I mean pathetic.

times change, and sometimes you need to adjust.

[Tsar]

plain hijackings ended on 911
anyone who hijacks a plane will be bombarded by the passengers onboard, becasue they will have nothing to loose.




thats what everyone says until they get into an actual situation where YOUR life has to be lost. i have the greatest example of them all. Nazi consentration camps. Hundreads of thousands of people versus um...few hundread men with guns. Guards could be easily slaughtered by that huge number of people. And if you say "well they had guns" well some hijackers have bombs and guns.

Everyone is always all talk, but when they get there they just sit there quitely like a 5 year old on a time out, its called fear. Everyone has it, true story.

[shane27]

thats what everyone says until they get into an actual situation where YOUR life has to be lost. i have the greatest example of them all. Nazi consentration camps. Hundreads of thousands of people versus um...few hundread men with guns. Guards could be easily slaughtered by that huge number of people. And if you say "well they had guns" well some hijackers have bombs and guns.

Everyone is always all talk, but when they get there they just sit there quitely like a 5 year old on a time out, its called fear. Everyone has it, true story.well look what happned to that plane that landed in pennsylvania. the passengers heard what was going on in the other planes, so some of them fought back and killed the terrorists that were on board. why? becasue they knew it was either kill the terrorists or be killed by the terrorists.

if u knew the plane u were on was going into a building would u just sit there and take it? definitly not. also the people in the concentration camps were weak, dying, and had nothing except their bodies. people on planes ahve a little more then that

[Tsar]

well look what happned to that plane that landed in pennsylvania. the passengers heard what was going on in the other planes, so some of them fought back and killed the terrorists that were on board. why? becasue they knew it was either kill the terrorists or be killed by the terrorists.

if u knew the plane u were on was going into a building would u just sit there and take it? definitly not. also the people in the concentration camps were weak, dying, and had nothing except their bodies. people on planes ahve a little more then that
the only reason they succeded is because hijackers had nothing but box cutters...if that was not the case like it usually is all the passangers that tryed to take over wouldve been shot and the plane would proceed on its way.

Sure they were weak but have u ever seen a group that big. atrittion thats how the war was won. thats how they could've helped themselves.

[shane27]

the only reason they succeded is because hijackers had nothing but box cutters...if that was not the case like it usually is all the passangers that tryed to take over wouldve been shot and the plane would proceed on its way.

Sure they were weak but have u ever seen a group that big. atrittion thats how the war was won. thats how they could've helped themselves.

well thats all their ever going to have is boxcutters becasue of plane security. no way is anyone getting a gun on board anymore.

and as for the jews, escaping a country is a little harder then being the **** out of some arabs on a plane

[Tsar]

well thats all their ever going to have is boxcutters becasue of plane security. no way is anyone getting a gun on board anymore.

wow you kidding me right? :scratch:
Airport security improved my ass. The lines got longer sure. Never in my life have a stood in line in the airport, well one time i did actually but thats cuz my mom decided to be a sheep and stayed in the actual line. Some airports have those "green corridors" that you can walk thru and checks are random at most, ive never been checked... i flew PLENTY of times after 9/11 and hasnt been checked once. that includes the time i had a knife in my carry on case that wasnt checked... airport security my ass.

[NJSPEEDER]

i think what a lot of people read into the patriot act was way too deep. it still requires a review and approval before anyone is personally monitored or tapped, it jsut changed the level of information given to the public about it.
it also had nothing to do with 99.9% of teh citizens in this country because the government has no reason to consider monitoring us.

[Savage_Messiah]

for the record, foreign extremists using a chat room smells like the biggest pile of horse crap I've heard in a long time.

[Tsar]

for the record, foreign extremists using a chat room smells like the biggest pile of horse crap I've heard in a long time.
i wonder if they were speaking english too, i mean foreign people always speak english when they talk to each other in the movies :lol:

[Savage_Messiah]

exactly :lol:

I can't take anything the Executive branch tells me at face value anymore. Sorry if I don't straight up believe people who lied to the country to make us begin a war.

[BigAls87Z28]

I've been saying that for a VERY long time- the PATRIOT act might cut into a citizen's privacy, but to me, the sacrifice is WELL worth it. What did people want Bush to do? Nothing? If he had done nothing, and elected to not endorse the PATRIOT act, I can guarantee you that it would make it MUCH easier for terrorists to try and do something such as this bombing to our country.

And, in spite of all of that, you STILL have some liberals saying, "THE NERVE OF OUR PRESIDENT, blah blah blah blah"... okay, fine... let's not let the government take a proactive stance and instead lets sit by the wayside and let the terrorists that we do in fact have living here among us (ever seen the movie Arlington Road?) take advantage of the fact that we have no way to spy on them. Please.

(end rant).

You are right, lets just totaly blow away the Constitution and **** any right to a fair trial, and go right to detaining people without ever listing any cause, agaisnt there own free will, and give up all our liberties and civil rights. The ends justifies the means, right?
You think that because of all this, that they are not attacking us here? Do you think that the terrorists are THAT dumb to just post stuff on the internet? What if all that was BS, and that it was ment to distract the attention away from, I dunno, destroying another part of the country.
These terrorists arent stupid, and just cause we arrested a few, doesnt mean that the others will just give up.
Im not willing to give up my rights as an American Citizen because of a crazy bunch of Muslims that want blood. They will kill and keep killing, no matter how many Ammendments and rights the goverment strips from us.

[camarokev]

You are right, lets just totaly blow away the Constitution and **** any right to a fair trial, and go right to detaining people without ever listing any cause, agaisnt there own free will, and give up all our liberties and civil rights. The ends justifies the means, right?
You think that because of all this, that they are not attacking us here? Do you think that the terrorists are THAT dumb to just post stuff on the internet? What if all that was BS, and that it was ment to distract the attention away from, I dunno, destroying another part of the country.
These terrorists arent stupid, and just cause we arrested a few, doesnt mean that the others will just give up.
Im not willing to give up my rights as an American Citizen because of a crazy bunch of Muslims that want blood. They will kill and keep killing, no matter how many Ammendments and rights the goverment strips from us.

hmmm...Al, your quote above does what a lot of liberals do lately- take things immediately to EXTREMES. Who said anything about ****ing up the rights we have in the constitution? In order to protect our country, we NEED a law like the PATRIOT act that gives our country a right to listen in and watch over people who are doing this suspicious or are suspected or could be suspected.

Granted, a major right that is implied in "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is privacy. However, what many liberals are fighting for is the right that NO ONE be screened. How about some of these people from other countries who ARE doing things wrong and are NOT our citizens? Should we give them that same implied right when they could bomb the heck out of our country. This is where Democrats and Republicans disagree.

Seems to me like most liberals would rather have us sit on our butts, do nothing, pull out of Iraq and let them all kill themselves (a whole other issue yes, but if we pull out now, mass hysteria would ensue in that country), and just wait for our country to get bombed or attacked again. Please. At least we have a government that is doing SOMETHING to protect us.

[shane27]

You are right, lets just totaly blow away the Constitution and **** any right to a fair trial, and go right to detaining people without ever listing any cause, agaisnt there own free will, and give up all our liberties and civil rights. The ends justifies the means, right?
You think that because of all this, that they are not attacking us here? Do you think that the terrorists are THAT dumb to just post stuff on the internet? What if all that was BS, and that it was ment to distract the attention away from, I dunno, destroying another part of the country.
These terrorists arent stupid, and just cause we arrested a few, doesnt mean that the others will just give up.
Im not willing to give up my rights as an American Citizen because of a crazy bunch of Muslims that want blood. They will kill and keep killing, no matter how many Ammendments and rights the goverment strips from us. ok where to start
A. no i dont think their that dumb, i think we're all being lied too and terrorists dont use one of the most popular and easiest ways of communication to talk to each other, when they know their phones are probably going be tapped :roll:
B. what amendments are rights are they taking away from you? name one. their not spying on US their spying on TERROPRISTS and other big time criminals. and if thats taking one of my rights away then take it away.

i bet your the same person who would cry about the US not doing enough to prevent terrorist attacks if we didnt pass the patriot act.

[Dark_Knight7096]

hmmm...Al, your quote above does what a lot of liberals do lately- take things immediately to EXTREMES. Who said anything about ****ing up the rights we have in the constitution? In order to protect our country, we NEED a law like the PATRIOT act that gives our country a right to listen in and watch over people who are doing this suspicious or are suspected or could be suspected.

Granted, a major right that is implied in "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is privacy. However, what many liberals are fighting for is the right that NO ONE be screened. How about some of these people from other countries who ARE doing things wrong and are NOT our citizens? Should we give them that same implied right when they could bomb the heck out of our country. This is where Democrats and Republicans disagree.

Seems to me like most liberals would rather have us sit on our butts, do nothing, pull out of Iraq and let them all kill themselves (a whole other issue yes, but if we pull out now, mass hysteria would ensue in that country), and just wait for our country to get bombed or attacked again. Please. At least we have a government that is doing SOMETHING to protect us.

I'm not a liberal, I'm more republican than anything else. The problem I have with the Patriot Act is it in non-descriminatory in who it says we are allowed to watch over. If the government wanted it could watch you and get all your information and monitor you. You may say, "I don't care, I have nothing to hide". I do care, and I have nothing to hide. It's almost guilty until proven innocent to me. I wouldn't mind it if there were a few more restrictions or perhaps better reasons needed before monitoring can be done. What's the saying? "Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security," can anyone remember who said that? Some guy, maybe you've heard of him, Benjamin Franklin. There are a few other quotes that I would love to put up here that come from other founding fathers but I can't remember who said them or exactly how they were worded so I'm not gonna put them.

I don't agree with a lot of stuff this administration has done, but i'm sure now I'll just get yelled at for being a liberal, or unpatriotic or something like that, just know i'm neither.

[shane27]

ok once AGAIN, the governent isnt spying on us, their spying on terrorists. we have rights, they need a reason to by spying on you, thhir not just gunna tap your phone line and listen.

and. our founding four fathers or whatever the F they are, didnt have terrorists threats and suicide bombings. times change and you need to adjust. thats it

[camarokev]

times do change- that is why there is the "elastic" clause in the constitution.

And no, you're not unpatriotic or a liberal, wouldnt claim that at all. But, imo, Ben Franklin- isn't he the same guy that said "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy?" Come on... not the best guy to be quoting. :-P

[BigAls87Z28]

So, if the goverment knows exactly who the terrorists are, then why dont they just arrest them? I mean, they are only listening to THIER phone calls and chat rooms, right?
They can scan ANYONE and EVERYONE's information, and can detain you for no reason. Guilty until proven innocent is right.
Im not a liberal, but I guess since im not all gung-ho about smashing in peoples doors and ripping them out of thier houses on what ammounts to be a hunch, I get grouped in with them.
And if you are going to knock Ben Franklin because of a comment about beer, you better take a good hard look at who you elected to run this great nation. Ben Franklin did more great things in a day then Bush will ever do in his life time.

[Ian]

So, if the goverment knows exactly who the terrorists are, then why dont they just arrest them? I mean, they are only listening to THIER phone calls and chat rooms, right?
They can scan ANYONE and EVERYONE's information, and can detain you for no reason. Guilty until proven innocent is right.
Im not a liberal, but I guess since im not all gung-ho about smashing in peoples doors and ripping them out of thier houses on what ammounts to be a hunch, I get grouped in with them.
And if you are going to knock Ben Franklin because of a comment about beer, you better take a good hard look at who you elected to run this great nation. Ben Franklin did more great things in a day then Bush will ever do in his life time.

QFT! :nod:

[shane27]

So, if the goverment knows exactly who the terrorists are, then why dont they just arrest them? . yeah really, except knowing who someone is has almost nothing to do with where they are... :roll:
now your just sounding really silly so suggest you stop:rofl:

p.s. who said the gov. knew exactly who they are?

[BigAls87Z28]

You did!
ok once AGAIN, the governent isnt spying on us, their spying on terrorists. we have rights, they need a reason to by spying on you, thhir not just gunna tap your phone line and listen.

You said, they only listen to the terrorists, so that must mean that the goverment MUST know who these people before hand? And if they know they are terrorists, why dont they just arrest them? I mean, use the Patriot Act and detain them for the rest of there life without a trial!!
And they CAN just tap your phone line for no reason! It was all over the TV about a month ago, talking about the FBI and CIA phone tapping without warrants due to the "Patriot Act" and national security. Pres. Bush gave that order and the FBI and CIA can peek into your private life whenever they feel the need.

[shane27]

You did!


You said, they only listen to the terrorists, so that must mean that the goverment MUST know who these people before hand? And if they know they are terrorists, why dont they just arrest them? I mean, use the Patriot Act and detain them for the rest of there life without a trial!!
And they CAN just tap your phone line for no reason! It was all over the TV about a month ago, talking about the FBI and CIA phone tapping without warrants due to the "Patriot Act" and national security. Pres. Bush gave that order and the FBI and CIA can peek into your private life whenever they feel the need....no it just means they can interpret call from overseas and listen in on anything suspicious. it has nothing to do with knowing who they are. and for the 10th time now their NOT peeking into your life they DO NOT CARE, they have alot more to worry about then a regular civilians life. and even if they were, i havent gotten **** for anything ive said.

didnt u even read the link to the first post in the thread, they just prevented a possible attack on the holand tunnel, by spying. apperently you would rather leave the terrorists alone and let them do their thing then to protect our country

[BigAls87Z28]

Ugh..ok, well how did they find out they were terrorists in a chat room? Did they just wake up one morning and guess? Dart board perhaps? They are constantly scanning the internet, rooms of computers constantly checking and red flagging anything. If you talk over the phone, and say certain words, it can be logged and red flagged. Same things with words on the internet. I forget the program, but it seaches for certain words used on the internet. If I say such things as bomb, explosive, Holland Tunnel, etc etc, the computer will track it down.
Now, this is an example when the system does work, and the goverment can now justify its reason to pry into personal lives of millions of Americans cause they caught some terrorists.
The goverment tracks everything you say, I say, we all say. They then desipher that on some small message board related about cars, that this place isnt that big of a threat, but they might focus in on other sites that have more radical purposes, like Honda and Toyota sites....crazy asians....anyway, but its not that they just know who to look for. If it was that easy, War on Terror would be short!! They dont know who to look for. Its not the "arab" looking guy. Terror has no nationality, no race, no religion, no purpose other then to strike fear into the masses. And they are doing it with GREAT effect. They have caused America, home of the free, to live in fear. This has happend before, and will happen again in the future. History has repeated itself time and time again. McCarthy Era, Red Scare, WWII Internment Camps, hell the Cold War was all about living in fear!! Do you think that all of this, all of what we are doing today, is really gunna stop some sleeper cell in some small city from another attack? I, for one, sure as hell dont think so. All this wont ever just stop them. They wont ever give up. The War on Terror will never end.

[shane27]

you do what u can to protect your county thats the bottom line here. noone is getting screwed over becasue some fbi agent was litening to their calls to their friend. are we done here now? good.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, not to go super-liberal on you, but if the FBI did go crazy on some innocent guy...do you think you would know about it?
Point is, the Goverment doesnt know who is a terrorist so they listen to everyone and everything.
In all reality, I think our hands are tied too much and we are fighting this "war" incorrectly. Id get into it more, but my hands hurt and I have a lot of paperwork to go through at work here.

[Frosty]

But, imo, Ben Franklin- isn't he the same guy that said "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy?" Come on... not the best guy to be quoting. :-P

I have one better for you

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Much better quote.

[Frosty]

I won't sit here and claim to know all the ins and outs of the Patriot Act but Al touched on a few of them. I don't care WHO is being tapped but the mere throught of anyone in this country getting tapped without any warrants is disturbing. Oh wait, I'm sorry, the do need warrants but a court NOT of our peers(a secret panel so to speak) issues those warrants. I forgot.

Now, I'm not one if these people that wears tin foil hats thinking our government is reading our minds or anything but ok great, they can tap overseas calls...who is to say they won't change it to say "we're taping suspected terrorist calls within this country". That bothers me as well. It opens the door for other things. I don't give a **** if I, you,the neighbor up the street doesn't have anything to hide, we shouldn't have the government listing in...PERIOD.

The freedoms that make this country great are also our biggest weaknesses. Our forefathers are turning over in their graves right now knowing how much the government is involved in our daily lives. There is no right answer here because it's such a complicated subject but it really worries me that a lot of people shrug off the Patriot Act as no big deal because it makes them feel safe.

[Savage_Messiah]

ok once AGAIN, the governent isnt spying on us, their spying on terrorists. we have rights, they need a reason to by spying on you, thhir not just gunna tap your phone line and listen.

And tell me, which branch of government issues those warrants?


and. our founding four fathers or whatever the F they are

I really, honestly should deck you across the face for saying that.


I have said it before and I will say it again. there's a few reasons why this country was founded. Recent NJ events have sparked a little discussion on taxation without representation, which was a main theme in the Declaration.

But why did most of the settlers come here? For many of them it was because they fled places where people would be arrested for no reason and never heard from again. To prevent this from happening in the new country, there's something called the writ of HABEUS CORPUS, and it's been one of the major guardians of the people's freedom. What does it say? Things like that you can not be arrested without a cause, you have the right to a timely and fair trial, and you are innocent until proven guilty. What has the Bush administration done? Ignored all of that. Little something too called the GENEVA CONVENTIONS... look it up... bans torture of prisoners. Guantanamo Bay much?

And don't bring up the weak argument of "well they aren't playing fair so why should we"... because, well, it's not necessary.

Oh and please, not singling anyone out here, but if you're in a serious conversation and making a persuasive argument, at least make an attempt to use correct spelling, and maybe even grammar?

[Frosty]

Oh and please, not singling anyone out here, but if you're in a serious conversation and making a persuasive argument, at least make an attempt to use correct spelling, and maybe even grammar?

I didn't want to be the dick to point that out..so thanks. :rofl:

[camarokev]

lol... i can't believe this thread is STILL going on.. hmmm... my minor was PoliSci- so, I've actually READ the PATRIOT act, for classes and for my internship, because of security with where I work. So, I'm done with the thread and argument.... we all have better things to worry about, like how to make our cars go faster and get all the chicks! :-P

[shane27]

you are all out of your ****ing minds.we are spying on...TERRORISTS. name someone you know that got spyed on and got in trouble by the government. id like to hear who got screwed by the system. please i would love to hear it. forefathers arent turning in their graves. they have been dead for hunderes of years. are u guys paying 5 cents for soda? no becasue time change. get over it. btw how is not playing dirty not nesscarry, jeesus christ man we had 2k people die on 9/11 and im hearing its not nescarry, not THATS something our forefathers would be doing barrell rolls in their graves over.

p.s kasey why punch me in the face. thats messed up man

[Frosty]

forefathers arent turning in their graves. they have been dead for hunderes of years. are u guys paying 5 cents for soda? no becasue time change. get over it. btw how is not playing dirty not nesscarry, jeesus christ man we had 2k people die on 9/11 and im hearing its not nescarry, not THATS something our forefathers would be doing barrell rolls in their graves over.

p.s kasey why punch me in the face. thats messed up man

The turning over in their graves is a figure of speech. I don't know if I can dumb it down anymore for you. You obviously have no clue as to what this country was founded and built on.

You're looking at the situation with tunnel vision. Give anyone an inch they take a foot(can you understand that?). Also more than 2K people died that day. ;)

...also, for the love of God please learn to spell.

[shane27]

The turning over in their graves is a figure of speech. I don't know if I can dumb it down anymore for you. You obviously have no clue as to what this country was founded and built on.

You're looking at the situation with tunnel vision. Give anyone an inch they take a foot(can you understand that?). Also more than 2K people died that day. ;)

...also, for the love of God please learn to spell. thats really swell. you just totally went after me and said nothing about the subject of what we've been talking about. you are obviously a dumbass and u need to stop posting. you seriously had no reason to do that, and its pretty funny that you did becasue you had nothing legit to say. but anyway... go f**k yourself

[Frosty]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you resort to name calling and cursing. Nice. So even if you are proved wrong you'll just resort to 2nd grade comebacks. Go you!

I won't even type out a rebuttal to your "do you know anyone that's been spied on" comment because it's not really worth it.

[shane27]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So you resort to name calling and cursing. Nice. So even if you are proved wrong you'll just resort to 2nd grade comebacks. Go you!

I won't even type out a rebuttal to your "do you know anyone that's been spied on" comment because it's not really worth it.its not really worth it.... right whatever puts you to sleep at night man.

people as dumb as you piss me off to the point where i swear, sorry if your too immature to handle it :shrug:
and where do you see the second grade comeback and where was i proved wrong?

[Frosty]

Wow man...you need to seriously relax. I think you're the only one that's getting all amped over this this discussion.

Relax.

Calling me douche bag isn't 2nd grade ****?

I'm only stupid because I don't agree with you. To use one of your own phrases. "Whatever helps you sleep at night".

[shane27]

Wow man...you need to seriously relax. I think you're the only one that's getting all amped over this this discussion.

Relax.

Calling me douche bag isn't 2nd grade ****?

I'm only stupid because I don't agree with you. To use one of your own phrases. "Whatever helps you sleep at night".you make me angry im too messed up right now too relax. i guess you have never called someone a douchebag since you were in second grade or highschool even. im sure noone on this site has either

[Frosty]

The point totally flew over your head and hit the wall behind you. I could care less that you called me a douche bag. I was merely pointing out that you resorted to 2nd grade namecalling ********(which you had no clue as to what I meant).

[deeeeeeeeeeer] Get it now? [/deeeeeeeeeer]

Also, if you get this angry because someone disagrees with you on a message board you really need to seek some help bro.

[shane27]

The point totally flew over your head and hit the wall behind you. I could care less that you called me a douche bag. I was merely pointing out that you resorted to 2nd grade namecalling ********(which you had no clue as to what I meant).

[deeeeeeeeeeer] Get it now? [/deeeeeeeeeer]

Also, if you get this angry because someone disagrees with you on a message board you really need to seek some help bro.you didnt disagre me you just insulted me three times on a post becasue you had nothing to say. The turning over in their graves is a figure of speech. I don't know if I can dumb it down anymore for you. You obviously have no clue as to what this country was founded and built on.

You're looking at the situation with tunnel vision. Give anyone an inch they take a foot(can you understand that?). Also more than 2K people died that day. ;)

...also, for the love of God please learn to spell.
theres nothing there to disagree wtih you about. you stated no facts or any useless information at all and just ranted on about my spelling and how many people died on 9/11. thats what got me angry. i mean if you have a legit point somewhere in that post please tell me

[Frosty]

Um, ok. It was in response to you taking my forefathers comment literally, lol.

But whatever. It's all good. It's a ****ing internet message board.

But, to keep this thread on topic I don't trust the government. No matter how you slice it they're invading privacy. No matter what the intentions are they're invading privacy. They're tapping overseas calls to American citizens. Is it justified? Perhaps. Is it opening a HUGE door? ****ing-A right it is.

How's that? :rofl:

[shane27]

Um, ok. It was in response to you taking my forefathers comment literally, lol.

But whatever. It's all good. It's a ****ing internet message board.

But, to keep this thread on topic I don't trust the government. No matter how you slice it they're invading privacy. No matter what the intentions are they're invading privacy. They're tapping overseas calls to American citizens. Is it justified? Perhaps. Is it opening a HUGE door? ****ing-A right it is.

How's that? :rofl:even if they were, who cares. if your not doing anything wrong what do you have to be worried about. if your talking about buying a bag of weed, have u got into trouble yet? if the FBI hears u were cheatong on your wife, are you hearing about it on the news? and for the record ive been hearing about our founding fathers since the begenning of this discussion, i know that the tearm means.what door is it opening up.. the one that told us about a possibe attack on the holland tunnel? well then open the doors, windows and whatever else u cna open. open stores, open your car, open a can of soup. open a closed box, and open something that was open and you shut it just so you can open it again.

[GP99GT]

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/7065/internets1ty.jpg

[Frosty]

I respect your opinion but that very attitude will allow the government to walk all over us. It's not the point if you're doing something wrong, it's the point that they'd be allowed to do it.

I'm saying this sincerely and respectfully: I think you need to take a long hard look and what this country was founded on and why.

[shane27]

I respect your opinion but that very attitude will allow the government to walk all over us. It's not the point if you're doing something wrong, it's the point that they'd be allowed to do it.

I'm saying this sincerely and respectfully: I think you need to take a long hard look and what this country was founded on and why.even if i dont know all it was founded on, i know one thing it WAS founded on. National Security. thank you and good night, ill be here all week folks, and dont forget thursday is the wet t-shirt contest.

[Frosty]

Really? You sure about that?

[qwikz28]

blow up the middle east and get this **** over with.... and this is coming from a middle eastern with family over there :(

[Ian]

even if i dont know all it was founded on, i know one thing it WAS founded on. National Security.

All personal attacks aside, you better be joking. When this nation was founded the only "national security" we had was a very small army and local militia. The basis that the United States of America was founded on was freedom. The freedom to do anything you want as long as it doesnt infringe on someone elses freedom. fast forward to the patriot act. I used to have the freedom of privacy, but not anymore. And who violated my freedom? our very own government.

I know what you're trying to get at with the whole "their only spying on terrorists" thing, but how are they gonna know who is a terrorist if they dont screen everyone first and filter out the non-threats? Apparently terrorists are very hard to catch even when you have many documents sitting on your desk with details about the largest attack in the history of terrorism (yes, there were many indications of the 9/11 attack well before it happened, but GW doesnt like to read, so he never read them...go figure).

Just remember that this country's defining moment was not how we responded to an attack on our soil, but rather our own terroristic attack that led to our independance (boston tea party for those who didn't pick that up). Chew on that for a while.