2012 T/A Rumor!!

[87GTA]

So has anybody picked up the new copy of HOT ROD mag??? they have a aritcle in there about the SEMA camaro's and had a little thing in there about if the 5th gen camaro reaches it's goal for production then GM may put out a T/A in 2012 what do you guys think?????

[BigAls87Z28]

Pontiac is dead.
There will never be a Firebird, Trans Am, or any other Pontaic version of the Camaro, even if the Camaro outsold the Camry.
Ever. Again.
Pontiac's death starts 2012.

[GP99GT]

thats okay, the world is ending in 2012 anyway.

http://www.survive2012.com/

[madness410]

thats okay, the world is ending in 2012 anyway.

http://www.survive2012.com/

as soon as i saw 2012 in the title i knew someone would drop that bomb. but al is right pontiac is dead

[BonzoHansen]

So has anybody picked up the new copy of HOT ROD mag??? they have a aritcle in there about the SEMA camaro's and had a little thing in there about if the 5th gen camaro reaches it's goal for production then GM may put out a T/A in 2012 what do you guys think?????

You should read between the lines better...it's a load of bollocks.

"Now, we have no idea as to the accuracy of this story. Frankly it sounds more than a little spurious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spurious)."

"It's our jobs to spread disputatious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disputatious) stories such as these. We might even start a good rumor if it tickles out fancy."


They decided to use some big league words, lol.

[69BirdX]

pontiac and jim wagners said there was to be no t/a comeback. plus they are going bankrupt

[BigAls87Z28]

pontiac and jim wagners said there was to be no t/a comeback. plus they are going bankrupt

No they arent.

[1972LT1]

If I recall correctly, the original plan was Chevy was going to have the Camaro and Monte Carlo and Pontiac was to have the G8 and GTO. GM wasn't going to offer a 'bird because the Camaro had to sell 100k per year to keep the line going. Maybe GM would contract an aftermarket company(SLP,LPE,Saleen) to convert Camaros to 'Birds. It's that or a ricer style body kit.

[bandit88]

You should read between the lines better...it's a load of bollocks.

"Now, we have no idea as to the accuracy of this story. Frankly it sounds more than a little spurious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spurious)."

"It's our jobs to spread disputatious (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disputatious) stories such as these. We might even start a good rumor if it tickles out fancy."


They decided to use some big league words, lol.

you know i just got done with finals.... the last thing i want to see is words i have to look up ;)

[qwikz28]

there is an issue with the name Trans am, and the logistics mean that name will no longer be used. there is more of a chance of a rebadged camaro coming as a GTO than as a trans am. but as said before, a rebadged anything from a already dead company is highly unlikely, so i'm sure an impossible scenario from an unlikely company is not gonna happen :)

[Mike]

there is an issue with the name Trans am, and the logistics mean that name will no longer be used. there is more of a chance of a rebadged camaro coming as a GTO than as a trans am. but as said before, a rebadged anything from a already dead company is highly unlikely, so i'm sure an impossible scenario from an unlikely company is not gonna happen :)


to nitpick even more.......they said the FIREBIRD will never be back, so that eliminates the excuse of the t/a licensing that the people who cant get this through their heads are making

[sweetbmxrider]

the g8 gt and gxp is the muscle car of pontiac. with how the economy and the big three are, you won't see anything else.

[FBODS4EVER]

they said never on both cars in 2002. who knows if the economy picks back up. it could happen. if not. who cares. i wouldnt mind. it will only increase the value to my cars faster as they become harder to find.:mrgreen:

[V]

actually they never said never on the camaro. from day one, they said the camaro was on hiatus... the bird was dead.

[BigAls87Z28]

they said never on both cars in 2002. who knows if the economy picks back up. it could happen. if not. who cares. i wouldnt mind. it will only increase the value to my cars faster as they become harder to find.:mrgreen:

actually they never said never on the camaro. from day one, they said the camaro was on hiatus... the bird was dead.

Correct. Camaro and Firebird were put on hiatus, and then Firebird was dead, but Camaro stayed in limbo.
For the longest time, GM could not use the word Camaro when talking about any future product, or the CAW would want to know why. After the agreement to the CAW was over reguarding both cars, it was deemed that the Camaro came could start to circulate again. That was mid 2005. By late 2005, spy shots of Camaro "clown" clay models hit the internet, fueling rumors.

There wont be a Firebird at all, ever.
Pontiac is dead. I keep saying this, but it doesnt get through.
The next gen G6 will be a rebadged next gen Malibu
Pontiac will also get a rebadged Cruze to replace G5
The G8 will run its course till the next gen, and then no more imports to America.
Solstice and Sky's Kappa platform will end sometime in 2012 with no next generation platform planned.
By 2012, dealers will be told that Pontiac is dead, and by 2014, it will stop selling cars.
Saturn could take up the slack by moving into the PBG dealers that have now been formed over the past few years.

[LS1Hawk]

Maybe they'll just axe Pontiac and surprise us with a Firebird company! That would be zany!

[wrong generation]

they said never on both cars in 2002. who knows if the economy picks back up. it could happen. if not. who cares. i wouldnt mind. it will only increase the value to my cars faster as they become harder to find.:mrgreen:

umm thirdgens will never be hard to find there are to many of them for them to ever be worth anything.


and bigal87z28 is right pontiac is dead but he is wrong about the year. pontiac died in the late 70s and gm has been rebadging the camaro ever sense. hell the 82-02 firebirds are nothing more then a rebadged camaro only differance is they they have flip up headlights.

[FBODS4EVER]

umm thirdgens will never be hard to find there are to many of them for them to ever be worth anything.


and bigal87z28 is right pontiac is dead but he is wrong about the year. pontiac died in the late 70s and gm has been rebadging the camaro ever sense. hell the 82-02 firebirds are nothing more then a rebadged camaro only differance is they they have flip up headlights.

thirdgens are getting harder to find. you may think they are not as to hanging the fbod sites. how many do you actually see on the road. compared to the 80's? (probably about the time you were born?) im almost 40 i remembered when every other car you pass was either a fbod or mustang. as for parts the junkyards are getting harder to find. most of the time you can only get the part you need from a member who wrecked or blew his car up. and as for the rebadged camaro. it's true. but pontiac always had in my opinion more styling. nothing against you camaro guys. and not to start a fbod war. i would own a camaro in a heartbeat. but the birds always looked more ahead of their time. just my :2cents:

[BonzoHansen]

umm thirdgens will never be hard to find there are to many of them for them to ever be worth anything.

.that is what they said about 1st gens, then later they said that about 2nd gens...

[wrong generation]

that is what they said 1st gens, then later they said that about 2nd gens...

ya but if you think about it 1rst gens were only made for 3 years. 2nd gen although that generation lasted 12 years there are techically 3 diff cars and each one was only made for 3-4 years. so those cars are hard to find compared to when they were new. but thirdgen and 4th gens on the other hand only had 1 car for each of their entire generation and there were millions/billions of them made so they arnt ever going to be as rare. yes you can say that thirdgens can be split up in their years 82-84 85-90 91-92 but once you strip the cars down to their bare shells there is not 1 differance. it is the same car thru out the entire 11 year span that that generation lasted and their are just way to many of them for them to ever be as valuable as a first or second gens. the same for fourth gens you can split them up 93-97 98-02 but once you strip them down to their bare shells its just 1 car that was mass produced for 10 years and their are billions of them out there. i doubt there will ever be a day where you dont see a third or fourth gen in a junkyard or where you see a bare rotted shell going for a few grand. now im not trying to start a fight or anything i just personaly dont see the third or fourth gens ever being all that valuable because of how many more were made compared to other generations.

[DevilDougWS6]

and bigal87z28 is right pontiac is dead but he is wrong about the year. pontiac died in the late 70s and gm has been rebadging the camaro ever sense. hell the 82-02 firebirds are nothing more then a rebadged camaro only differance is they they have flip up headlights.

perhaps you should compare the camaro and firebird for ALL years, they are exactly the same car, they have been ever since day one. the only differences are motors (pontiac built pontiac motors, chevy built chevy motors obviously) and interior, just like it has always been. they change the nose and taillights, just like it has always been.

http://www.firstgencamaro.com/1967camarofactspics/67camaro.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/DieHardD/67firebird.jpg





HOLY ****! its the same car with a different nose, hood, and rear end!!! OMG!

[BonzoHansen]

umm thirdgens will never be hard to find there are to many of them for them to ever be worth anything.

.You're comment was "they won't be worth anything", which is a far cry from being as "valuable as a first or second gens", which nobody said.

You are wrong that 3rd gens will never be worth anything. They are already going up in value for nice ones. One reason is it is getting harder to find nice ones as many have ended in the same fate as their older brethren, in the scrapheap from normal wear and tear and otherwise hacked or destroyed by their stupid owners.

Plus you're argument is weak based on production numbers. We can all agree 67-69 Camaros get more $$ than equivalent 70-73 Camaros despite much higher production. And if you want to break it down one can easily argue 98-02 Camaros are the rarest with only 235,820 made.

Here are Camaro numbers.
Gen Camaros
67-69 699,138
70-73 450,912
74-81 1,531,936
82-92 1,529,917
93-02 680,992
Total 4,892,895

Doug, 1st & 2nd gen firebirds & camaros have mostly different sheet metal.

[r0nin89]

I've heard rumors that saturn will merge into pontiac inorder to keep the pontiac name alive.

[V]

I've heard rumors that saturn will merge into pontiac in order to keep the pontiac name alive.actually, it will probably be like Al already has stated. Not exactly a merge.


Saturn could take up the slack by moving into the PBG dealers that have now been formed over the past few years.

[V]

Doug, 1st & 2nd gen firebirds & camaros have mostly different sheet metal.


3rd gens birds and camaros have different sheet metal too. only doors roof and decklids are the same.

4th gens had all different sheetmetal(or composite body parts) except for the roof.

[DevilDougWS6]

its still essentially the same car just different manufacturer. the body shape is the same, just different fascias and rear ends. just look at the shape of the windows, the hatch, the basic frame work outline is all the same.

[BonzoHansen]

It's detail, I know, but I think the only common sheet metal in 2nd gens are trunk lids, roofs and A-pillars. Possibly floor pan, not sure on that. I believe 1st gen firebird vs camaro is similar in lack of common parts. I think most people don't realize that. Just saying that the differences in sheet metal/body panels was greater 'back in the day', so I guess supporting part of zeeks theory.

[NJSPEEDER]

If GM comes out with a T/A or any version of the Zeta related to the Firebird it will simply prove that they haven't learned anything from the years of fighting themselves for sales. Too similar a vehicle to sell enough units to justify it.

[sweetbmxrider]

didn't pontiac outsell gm every generation's run?

[BigAls87Z28]

didn't pontiac outsell gm every generation's run?

That makes no sense what so ever...but

Did Pontiac outsell Chevy every generation? Not even close. Outside of maybe a year or two, the Camaro has outsold the Firebird generation vs generation.

[NJSPEEDER]

Firebird never outsold the Camaro for any model year or at any trim level.

[DevilDougWS6]

firebirds ARE more rare hahaha!

errrr...less common than camaros

[miketa95]

hmm if their going to get so valuable maybe I can justify buying a second?

[LS1Hawk]

If GM comes out with a T/A or any version of the Zeta related to the Firebird it will simply prove that they haven't learned anything from the years of fighting themselves for sales. Too similar a vehicle to sell enough units to justify it.

Yes. But one could argue that 1) regardless of which car you buy, a sale of a Camaro or a Firebird is ultimately a sale for GM.That's like saying there should have never been a GTO, Chevelle, 442, GS, etc. because those could have been Camaro sales, and 2) GM has an advantage with offering you a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Mustang or a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Challenger.

That makes no sense what so ever...but

Did Pontiac outsell Chevy every generation? Not even close. Outside of maybe a year or two, the Camaro has outsold the Firebird generation vs generation.

Chevy might have outsold Pontiac, but without cars like the the '74 T/A 455 SDs the muscle car era would have died completely.

[BurninrubberGT]

gm had a firebird project, then when the new CAFE standards where put in place the project was canceled.

but 2012 firebird would make sense. gm has said it is keeping pontiac as their niche brand. line up would be g8 (4-door sports car), trans am (coupe), g6 (cheap performance vert), and solstice.....pontiac could once again be the performance division. also if they do come out with the firebird, i think it will look nothing like the camaro

[NJSPEEDER]

Yes. But one could argue that 1) regardless of which car you buy, a sale of a Camaro or a Firebird is ultimately a sale for GM.That's like saying there should have never been a GTO, Chevelle, 442, GS, etc. because those could have been Camaro sales, and 2) GM has an advantage with offering you a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Mustang or a Camaro or Firebird vs. a Challenger.

Costs go up because you need two assembly lines and paying to double up on a bunch of equipment, materials, and staff. You also have the half million or more to get another car certified through crash testing and everything else even though it is the same car. Then add more shipping locations since not all Chevy and Pontiac dealers share lots. The margin also gets much thinner once you account for re-engineering a new body and bumper supports and everything, come up with a second marketing plan, and do all of the other stuff related to bringing out a new model.

A-body and F-body were vastly different markets, so I dunno where you are trying to go with that.

GM's "Advantage" against the Mustang with two offerings is a myth. It confuses the market and doesn't have an end benefit for either line. Just look at the sales over the 35 years that the F-body went up against the Mustang, the Mustang was the sales leader moving more units than the Camaro and Firebird combined. Also as a single unit, the Mustang has a much better margin and spent many years right along side the F150 as the focus of Ford's profit driving.

GM's big problem has been overlapping model lines for years. There is a lack of image. If something could be done to create a real dividing line between the models, maybe they can make that work. If the difference is a few standard features and $1500 higher sticker price for the Pontiac model, that is just the same old song and dance and won't move enough units to justify the expense.

Either way, if GM doesn't get serious about advertising, none of it will sell anyway. GM has plenty of competitive products to market, just that the general public never hears about them.

[LS1Hawk]

Costs go up because you need two assembly lines and paying to double up on a bunch of equipment, materials, and staff. You also have the half million or more to get another car certified through crash testing and everything else even though it is the same car. Then add more shipping locations since not all Chevy and Pontiac dealers share lots. The margin also gets much thinner once you account for re-engineering a new body and bumper supports and everything, come up with a second marketing plan, and do all of the other stuff related to bringing out a new model.

I don't disagree with you. I understand both sides of the argument.

A-body and F-body were vastly different markets, so I dunno where you are trying to go with that.

Yes I know. I was referring to all the models as GM muscle cars in general. I don't know the numbers, but I'd argue that GM outsold Ford and Chrysler in the golden age of the muscle car due to their product offering.

I'd also argue that the Firebird would be more beneficial to Pontiac than the Camaro to Chevy. Pontiac needs a white horse to save it and that could very well be a new Firebird. It might have made more sense in that respect to bring the Firebird back rather than the Camaro...even though we know it won't happen at this point.

[WildBillyT]

Chevy might have outsold Pontiac, but without cars like the the '74 T/A 455 SDs the muscle car era would have died completely.

The muscle car era died that year anyway. I love the SD cars and would love to own one, but Pontiac bookended the muscle car era over 10 years. Started it and ended it in my opinion. '75 was probably the worst year ever for the F bodies, performance wise.

As for sales numbers, in the Firebird's best year it was still outsold by the Camaro by over 2 to 1. And the engine that was designed for the Camaro became one of the most (if not the most) popular engines of all time. I would argue that the sales numbers were because (with the exception of the first gen) the Camaro was always the more socially acceptable version of the F-body. Like it or not the Firebird (especially the Trans-AM) was more in-your-face and had love-it-or-hate-it styling.

[CJDZ24_Z28]

didn't pontiac outsell gm every generation's run?

That is Funny as hell!!! Pontiac never sold more birds than Camaro's!!!!!!

[BurninrubberGT]

Like it or not the Firebird (especially the Trans-AM) was more in-your-face and had love-it-or-hate-it styling.

very true :nod:

the camaro sold more then the firebird for 1 reason only, it was a chevy

dont get me wrong...i love camaro's...just love TA's more

[LS1Hawk]

the camaro sold more then the firebird for 1 reason only, it was a chevy

The Camaro was also cheaper.