Getting my new 406 SBC installed, running, and driving [Archive] - Page 2 - NJFBOA - Home of New Jersey's Camaros and Firebirds

IROCZman15

10-11-2020, 12:35 PM

Short Version:

- Drove car to Atco
- Made 5 passes, best ET was 11.845 (pass 1) best mph was 115.94 (pass 5) best 60ft was 1.667 (pass 5)
- I have WOT ignition timing and AFR dialed in and set to perfection
- still working on finding optimal 1-2 and 2-3 shift points.
- nothing broke, nothing weird happened, car did its job
- packed up car and drove it home

Long version:

I decided to take the car down to Atco Dragway on Friday night for the Test and Tune. Rumors are that Atco might be closing its doors permanently as a drag racing track at the end of this season so I wanted to make some passes there as kind of a bucket-list type thing for myself. Atco is 2+ hours from me with no traffic, and despite me leaving my house at 1:30 pm, I still hit a bunch of NJ Friday afternoon traffic. I sat in traffic basically bumper-to-bumper for a good 45 minutes on rt 287 in Piscataway and the engine temperature never went above 191 deg. Made it down there right around 4:30 and unpacked my hundreds of pounds of spare parts, tools, a wheel, and misc gear. Went through tech, which was super easy and effortless. Got the tire psi, shocks, tune file, and fluids all set.

Pass 1:
6:18 pm DA was 669 53% humidity and 67*F. did a decent burnout
Launched from 920 rpm idle, converter flashed at 2,861 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6,567 (rev limiter) and shifted 2-3 at 6,072, crossed the stripe around 5,831 rpms. Checked my AFR readings, CL comp, and learn numbers in the file and those were great so I re-saved the file and used it the rest of the night.
- Had hoped that I would simply improve upon my timeslip as the night/weather got better, but just like several previous drag events at Island.. my first pass was my best timeslip of the whole night.. I don't know why that keeps happening to me!

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptrSp8nSKQ

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Pass 2:
7:51pm DA 195, 66% humidity and 61*F
-same tire pressure, same shock settings, longer burnout. lowered my shift light so I could try shifting at a lower rpm
Launched from a 937 rpm idle and converter flashed at 2,975
short shifted my 1-2 shift at 6,096 and then really short shifted 2-3 at 5,765, crossed the stripe at 5,537 rpm
short shifting the 2-3 really killed me up top, but the pass felt solid and the datalog traces looked good despite the pass being my slowest of the night

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr2-uTHJZ2s

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Pass 3:
9:37 pm DA was -39 with 70% humidity and 58*F
left the front shocks the same but tightened the rear shocks half-a-turn since my 60foots seemed a little slower than last month at Island. rear tire psi had dropped to 18.4, so I left it there. raised the shift light up a bit and also moved my rev limiter from 6,500 to 6,700 rpm.
- launched at 921 rpm, flashed at 2,770. Shifted 1-2 at 6,648 (rev limiter kicked in for a split second) and then shifted 2-3 at 6,377, crossing the line at 5,777 rpm. Noticed on the datalog (upper green line) that I was not at 100% throttle until I got into 3rd! wtf!

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFhd0Bu5YmQ

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Pass 4:
10:50 pm DA was -127 with 73% humidity at 57*F
aired up rear tires to 19.5 psi but had just a touch of tire spin off the launch. Tried launching at 1,300 rpm also. Did not get get a datalog this pass (must have not pressed "start"), but I know I short-shifted the 1-2 shift and revved out the 2-3 shift a little higher.

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38QnGeH7Y7s

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Pass 5:
11:12 pm DA was -107 with humidity at 74% and 56*F
- launched at 922 rpm and converter slashed at 2,843 rpm. no tire spin off the launch and it was my best 60ft of the night. Short shifted the 1-2 at 5,902 and then shifted 2-3 at 6,353 which had me crossing the stripe at 5,641 rpms
- if you look at the top green line on the datalog, I was only at 76% throttle all of first gear and then i got out of the throttle a little bit for the 2-3 shift. Damn it Dave! somehow, this pass had my highest MPH of the night (and ever) at 115.94mph.
video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBTKBMuvggc

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They shut off the track lights a few minutes after my last pass so I packed up my car of all the gear and aired up the tires just as they were shutting off the parking lot lights and closing the main gate. They had a track rental earlier in the day so I think everyone was just ready to close the gates and get done. Nice easy drive home on the highways with only a few weirdos pulling up next to me and trying to play around. The car ran great and simply put the torque converter lock-up ON and cruised on the turnpike for a long time doing 85 mph at 2,450 rpm and the engine temp stayed at 158-165*F the whole trip. Fueled up once on the ride home and pulled into my garage at 1:50 am. No leaks, no weird noises, no mechanical issues what-so-ever. Turned off the battery kill-switch, shut the garage door, went inside and passed out.

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Overall, I am super happy I made the trip and got some timeslips at Atco before it potentially closes its doors for racing. It was well worth the trip and the fuel cost. I improved on my previous best ET which was 11.855 at Island last month, to 11.845 at Atco. I have the drag race tune file optimized for 35* timing at WOT and the target AFR for 12.5:1 at tq peak and then leaned out to 12.7:1 at the HP peak. The AFR is staying really dialed in (pink and light blue lines in datalog). The best 60foot times come from launching the car off of an idle and my drag radials at 19psi with a 2/5 or 3/5 rear shock setting. I would like to scientifically determine my optimal shift point. I am thinking about creating a separate forum post to discuss shift points and use science and math to help me (us) determine my target 1-2 and 2-3 shifts.

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The_Bishop

10-12-2020, 10:20 AM

Maybe check your throttle linkage and make sure you're getting WOT when you hit the pedal? Also check the TPS if the mechanical side of things is right.

IROCZman15

10-12-2020, 10:47 AM

yep. its correct for sure. I just don't think I had my foot down all the way on some of those passes, like a fool. I went through a ton of the TPS and linkage checks during that few weeks in August/september when my MSD ignition took a crap. I made a few videos and stuff about it too, but the linkage and TPS readings are true. I've operated it by hand and watched the butterflies open to wot. Basically, I just wasn't on the floor with the pedal. you can see the upper green line in some of the other datalogs on this page (and previous pages) which will show my TPS gets to 100% pretty often.

But even if it didnt reach 100% apparently that is OK based on the way the Holley sniper is setup with a MAP sensor. According to Holley, anything over 85% TPS is considered full throttle. So in theory, if my throttle pedal is at 85% or 100% wide open, the engine/sniper would act exactly the same.

The_Bishop

10-12-2020, 02:04 PM

True, but the airflow wouldn't be as the butterfly valve would be partially closed. In any case, now you know what to watch for next time around!

IROCZman15

10-12-2020, 02:52 PM

True, but the airflow wouldn't be as the butterfly valve would be partially closed. In any case, now you know what to watch for next time around!

So, I am glad you said that, and I fully agree with you on that. If the blades are not 100% open, there is a slight airflow restriction into the engine. I spent a lot of time reading how TPS, Map, and VE table info works for the sniper, ad while I understand the basics of it, I still have wondered about the butterflies. The more air in, the more fuel can be added and essentially the more volumetric efficiency and cylinder pressure I can make. Most people (my tuner in Texas included) have told me that WOT is WOT on a map system. I still think of it like you are, and that if my blades are not fully open, I am giving up VE. I am glad to be able to datalog and see it, otherwise without that, I would just "assume" I was at full WOT for every pass. The datalogs show that I was only at 100% TPS on pass 1, and pass 2, 3, 5 I had some throttle fluctuation. I probably also did on pass 4, but I didn't record a datalog during it.

-the more I look at the sniper tunes and datalogs, the more I want to get back out to the track and run the car again. I am probably going to type up a separate post/thread about scientifically mathematically figuring out my optimal shift points, so I will be asking for as much group input on that as possible. I know I am splitting hairs here in search of maybe shaving down another tenth of a second or so, but I am hoping for one more good track session before winter comes along.

IROCZman15

11-01-2020, 04:50 PM

Finally getting a chance to sit down and type all this up. Too many other important things earlier this week, but the rainy day today allowed me to get this all typed up.

Had planned to go to Island on Friday night for TnT and had the car fully loaded and packed. All I had to do was throw some drinks and snacks in a bag and hit the road. A guy on TGO who was going to bring his thirdgen that runs 12.3s sent me a message saying Island was canceling due to impending fog. I was definitely bummed out because I planned on racing Friday night and then doing a big car show/fundraiser on Sunday. It did turn out that there was significant fog later at night and the DA was not great either, so Island was correct in decideing to cancel it. I decided to skip the Sunday car show and race at Island instead, so my Test and Tune happened Sunday, which was also the NETO, vs MANDRA vs Gassers event so there was a good amount of cars on the property. Weather was pretty good that day, slight wind with the occasional gust but it was crisp and cool so the DA was helpful.

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On the way to the track, almost just as I was passing by Larry's shop, my speedometer went dead, so I checked the cable and without taking things apart determined that it was a cable issue, not a dashboard. turned out that I was right, the end of the cable broke off about 3" from where it enters the tails haft housing. Due to the trans tunnel of these cars, the area is tight and the cable bend is pretty sharp...even by nature from the factory. I'll get a new one. ATP-Y-814 like $10 at advanced autoparts. In fact I think I have the receipt from when I bought this exact cable in May of this year and it has a 1 year free replacement.

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On Wednesday of last week I took out 30 minutes to wire up the 2-step rev limiter feature on the holley sniper just to see if it would help me launch at a steady set-higher rpm. Holley makes it super easy since it is a ground-trigger input and no relay is needed. Just wiring and a button. I will relocate my button over the winter, as its not in the most user-friendly spot being at the oem ash tray... more on this later.

testing 2-step at 2,500 and 3,500:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_vsvgeJJAw

and at 5,000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsNEzd5cfiE

I had created a pretty good tune file for the day and was feeling pretty confident. New spark plugs gapped at .035 and I also took some time to learn how to "index" them with indexing washers. Kept the front struts at the low setting 1 out of 5 and the rear shocks at the 2/5 all day. Rear tire pressure was at 19 psi and the front drag skinnies at 38/37 psi. The plan for the day was to shift at 6,600 rpms because of some math and calculators that I discuss in my other "shift and launch" thread on this forum.

Pass 1:
Temp was 47*, 60% humidity, and DA was -447. Did a 4 second burnout and shallow staged. Decided to try to launch using the 2-step rev limiter which I had pre-set to hold 1,600 rpms. I wasn't concerned about reaction time, more about a clean launch, which did happen! Launched at 1,676 and Shifted 1->2 at 6,573 and 2->3 at 6,632 while tagging the rev limiter a bit, and crossed the stripe around 5,842. Checked the data log and the afr looked great but I am still getting a rich spot right after the launch when the converter flashes. it is the pink dip on the datalog right after the 80 second mark.. As usually seems to be the case at most of the dragstrip days I've done this last half of the yea... my best pass of the day was my first pass.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKZCQUDu620

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Pass 2:
Temp was 49* with 53% humidity and a -246 DA reading.
Moved the rev limiter up to 6,800 and moved the 2-step rev limiter to 1,800 rpm. a 4.5 second burnout and tried to launch off the 2-step again. Couldn't get the button and my foot on the brake pedal to release cleanly so I boogered up the launch pretty bad. Launched at 1,803 rpm and 1->2 shift at 6,597 and 2->3 shift at 6,612 crossing the line at 5,723 rpms. Pretty happy with my shifting being very close to my target shift point of 6,600 but bummed out that I ruined the launch. Noticed a lot of -CL comp on the datalog, as well as the rich dip at the converter flash point, but aside from that dip, the AFR was dead on.

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK6bUgGbC8E

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Pass 3:
It had sprinkled rain in between my last pass so they had to take some time to dry the track. At 51*, 52% humidity, and a -139 DA. Put the rev limiter to 6,800 and the 2-step to 2,000 rpms. Did a 5.5 second burnout and launched at 1,911. Boogered up the launch again, this time because I think the car started to creep and I didn't release the button/brake pedal clean also. First weekend ever using a 2-step, but it was worth a shot. Shifted 1->2 at 6,648 and 2->3 at 6,638 rpms so I crossed the line at 5,907 rpms. Cl comp was better after I had adjusted a little bit of the VE table up top and the learn table had all small numbers too. Still a momentary rich pocket at the converter flash in 1st gear.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h2HqcdhsOc

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learn table after 3 runs:
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Pass 4:
Temp was 51* with 52% humidity and a -118 DA. Decided to go back to foot braking off the launch and aimed for a 1,200 rpm launch point so I wouldn't creep past the beam. Did a 5.5 second burnout and launched at 1,188 rpms. Shifted 1->2 at 6,361 (a little too early) and shifted 2->3 at 6,604 which put me crossing the line around 5,748 rpms. I had puled a little more fuel out of the area of the usual rich pocket and saw much less of a dip on the datalog (pink line). There were a few rain drops on my windshield at/during the run and I was super hopeful for one more pass, but sadly the rain came and the track closed for everyone. I packed up my gear and got the car setup for the drive home as is started to rain more.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixV87rCIWsY

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On the ride home I noticed the engine oil pressure on the oem style dashboad gauge was reading higher. Both at idle and while driving. I kept an eye on it and listened to the engine the whole way home, so no radio. The oil pressure gauge is incorporated into the tachometer on my car, and this tachometer I got from Cajun Tach supply back in the spring because it had a different redline and higher oil pressure gauge value readings. Since last week I have ordered a mechanical oil pressure test gauge online and it will be here in a few days. As part of my winter routine I also plan to pull the oil filter, cut it open and examine it along with an oil change. I now have +3,000 miles on this engine since it was installed back in February. I changed the oil and filter at 500 miles, at 1,500 miles, and now (soon) at 3,000 miles. I am hoping just the oil pressure sending unit or filter is having an issue, or even the needle on the dashboard gauge. Any thoughts?

That pretty much wraps up my racing for this year and car shows are done also. I would have loved to have an 11.7x timeslip and I tried like hell to get one, but the best slip of the year was the one from Pass 1 on this past Sunday.

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LTb1ow

11-02-2020, 06:28 AM

Can you show a plot of just the MAP values?

IROCZman15

11-02-2020, 07:28 PM

yea, if you mean just a screenshot of a datalog with only the MAP reading trace? I can do that. Or do you mean the MAP values from my tune and the VE table?

LTb1ow

11-03-2020, 06:52 AM

Yea the best run's datalog with MAP and RPM only

IROCZman15

11-22-2020, 04:36 PM

sorry, I never remembered to post that datalog, whoops

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unrelatedly, I did an oil change a few weeks ago and figured it was a good time to TRY one of those oil sample test kits. I also was curious about if the oil/filter change would remedy that high oil pressure issue that I had last month on the way home from Island Dragway.. tossed in a bottle that of AMSOIL engine flush since I had it on my shelf and ran engine for 10 mins. I will post a separate thread about that oil test.. but for now the engine oil pressure is back to where it normally is 52-55 at hot idle, and about 75-80 under moderate load. I hooked up a mechani9cal oil pressure test gauge to the threaded hole in located above the filter on the gen 1 Dart SHP block. got the same readings. So my oem style dashboard gauge is accurate. I'm still VERY baffled by why the oil pressure was reading like 100 under load and 80 at idle back in late October.

figured a new/separate thread would get more eyes and opinions so here it is:
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?p=955626#post955626

Unrelatedly, I decided to switch up my tail-lights. I had this set in storage for like 10 years. The ones on the car I did the red-tail light mod to back in 2007 and while it looked better than the orange turn signal lenses, I still wanted something more bada$$ and sleek and tinted. Took these out of storage and peeled them apart. painted the inner orange lens with the Testors translucent red paint. sealed them back up and they were the same as the ones on the car. Decided to bite the bullet and try to tint them. But first I painted the outside of the orange lens with the translucent red also with the testors. Then I sprayed a generous 2 coats of the VHT nightshade, followed by a gloss clear 2 coats. Let them cure for a few days then buff, polish, buff again, wax. installed them today. pretty happy with the sleek look. No more rainbow of colors. Not sure if I am going to leave the on/off killswitch handle red or paint it black. Plenty of light shines through, and they are just the oem style bulbs, nothign LED or anything fancy. If it looks too "ricer" or ends up being a problem, I can just swap back to the other taillights. For now, I am glad that the multi-color is gone.

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maroman88

11-24-2020, 10:37 AM

looks good, ive done both the red out and black outs in the passed also

BonzoHansen

11-24-2020, 01:40 PM

Cop guy, is that legal? Lol

The real test is how visible are they in daylight. I always find tinted tails can be hard to see on sunny days.

Joey D

11-24-2020, 03:33 PM

Cop guy, is that legal? Lol

The real test is how visible are they in daylight. I always find tinted tails can be hard to see on sunny days.

Shhhh

11-24-2020, 07:07 PM

Should just do export tail lights, be real different, lol

IROCZman15

11-24-2020, 09:19 PM

Cop guy, is that legal? Lol

The real test is how visible are they in daylight. I always find tinted tails can be hard to see on sunny days.

I haven't had a bright sunny day out yet to really see how they look, but they are not truly as dark as the photos make them look. The day I installed them was moderately sunny and I took this photo around 2:30pm and the sun was behind me facing the back of the car. (Just had the taillights illuminated and the hazards too, no brake lights activated) On the drivers side is the tinted tail light and the passenger side still had the old red tail light one.

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I'll see how it goes though out driving around one day. if I need to put the old red ones back on I can do that in 10 minutes time. or I can tint those old red ones but with less coats of VHT tint. No matter what I am just glad to have less colors back there and more of a sleek look. I don't think they are much darker than those certain year tinted 3rd gen firebird lights that came stock. For reference, see the photo of the silver bird in front of me in the staging lanes at Island dragway in post #208 above. That's just a nice clean look with not too many colors, and that is stock! The look of the yellow license plate, with black housings, white reverse lights, orange turn signal lenses, and red tail lenses was just too much color-wise; not my style. .. and Certainly no euro lights or lenses will be happening V !

I will have to be more careful on the road and mindful of traffic laws in the future though, I have made a choice in life that will make me a "regular member of the motoring public" as I step away from my current cop job. All is well and I am good, so that is that discussion for now. Hopefully good/different/fun things are to come my way in the future with a different job and career. So some of the bigger projects on the car MIGHT have to wait a bit as I get life/budget restructured. Actually, not too many big projects remain for this car, and it is ok for them to wait a bit. Roll bar, big tube full exhaust, nitrous setup, new and improved subwoofer/amp setup, and some better Autocross/street tires too. I could probably tackle some smaller stuff like the electric vacuum pump for the brake booster, weight removal, and some new stripes on the doors in the meantime since that is lower budget stuff.

BonzoHansen

11-25-2020, 07:09 AM

Really? Wow. Good luck!

11-25-2020, 07:24 AM

Fair enough, lol. I just like things that are different.

One day ill have to buy a camaro again to put my set on.

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IROCZman15

12-02-2020, 01:31 PM

long post of text, sorry,
I might start a new thread about future car upgrades/plans, since this thread was based mostly on the getting the engine in the car, getting it running, and sorting out everything during its first year of use.

This upcoming year will probably include a bit less activity, but I still hope to race it and attend events when i can. my budget is going to be much lower than it was in 2020, so I have to pick and choose what projects I do in a smart manner.

I still hope to do the roll bar, and there is a local fab shop nearby that will do it for about $2000 including swingouts, nice welds, and setting up the 5-point harness. I hope to do that in the springtime, maybe.

however, over the winter I might want to spend a small amount of money while the car is off the road. I do want to do an electric vacuum pump setup. I do not want a mechanical one with an extra pulley and plumbing on the engine. I do NEED more vacuum to my brake booster because 7" of vacuum made things a bit sketchy during autocross, drag racing, and street driving. No hydroboost, no way. A small self-contained electric vacuum pump that I will tuck under the nose of the car, hidden from sight makes the most sense. While drag racing I can also put a T-fitting into the vac line and then connect it to my crankcase to pull some vac on it and gain some more horsepower.

I also have been tossing around the idea of a rear gear switch. In the effort to make the car quicker off the line and more seat-of-the-pants faster, I could either reconfigure my 3,400 converter and leave my 3.55 gear ratio, OR leave the converter as is and change out the gears. I am actually happy with the torque converter, and it was built with nitrous hits in mind. Having it configured with a 4,000 stall would probably make autocross very difficult, and start to also get away from the true street-based nature of the car for routine driving. I cant think of a good reason to leave the 3.55s and change out the converter. So, when I had moser build the rear (february 2019) I could only hypothesize about how the new engine would pull and what gear ratio would be best for this street/strip/autox setup. I went conservative with a 3.55 ratio, and I am glad I did. The car worked great with the 3.55 ratio with the old engine on nitrous, as well as with this current 406. I just am itching for a but more low end pull, more energetic launch, and faster acceleration.

for details on my 12 bolt setup (with photos) check page #2 at post #48 at this link: http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68229&page=2 which was posted on 5/8/2019

On Mosers website, I have the choice between 3.73, 3.91, 4.11, etc. I don't think it would be worth it for my to pull everything apart and only go from a 3.55 to a 3.73. I think a 3.91 ratio would be better. I played around with several of the online gear calculators and the numbers seem to jive about where a 3.91 ratio would put me at for peak rpm/mph crossing the finish line. My motor makes peak hp right around 6,000 rpm, but holds similar hp between 6000-6400 rpm....on an engine dyno, so obviously no load on the engine. Using a 26" tall mickey thompson ET street SS tire, I am pretty sure it will be able to hook/launch well enough with the 3.91 ratio to get my a wheels up launch and a low 1.5x sixty foot time. As for a 3.91 ratio in autocross, I actually think it would make the car more responsive. a higher torque converter would mean I would have to come out of the turns revving the engine to the moon in order to start pulling in between cones/turns. A 3.91 ratio would just mean I would have to be more careful with the throttle input in order not to blow away the tires. That's fine, I can work on that.

As for street use, I don't think a 3.91 will make the car un-drivable on the local streets, nor on the highway. I have a 700R4 with overdrive, and I have wired up my torque converter clutch to a lockup toggle on/off switch that I can turn on and off in 2nd,3rd, or 4th gear. So for highway cruising, I could just lockup the converter and travel along the highway at 80 mph around 2,900 if my math is correct.

gearset: https://www.moserengineering.com/12-bolt-391-p-s-gear-us-gear.item

install kit: https://www.moserengineering.com/12-bolt-chevy-car-.item

Thoughts on a 3.91 ratio gear swap? it would cost about $400 in total including fluid and I would have to borrow a micrometer, dial indicator, and pinion depth tool from somewhere. I could pull the axle out of the car completely, or get the car up in the air in the garage and do all the wrenching with the axle in the car still.

The full blown exhaust project will probably not happen this year. I might plumb up the nitrous, but probably not until the roll bar setup is done. I am thinking that if I can shave a few thenths off my 11.82 et and maybe run an 11.5, it would justify my need for the roll bar. After the bar is in, I would be able to start dabbling with small nitrous hits without having to worry about getting kicked out of the track for no-bar rules.

Joey D

12-03-2020, 07:45 AM

3:91's sound like a good choice to me.

TaKid455

12-03-2020, 08:49 AM

Dave - Pay the extra coin & get a GM gear set if you can. Yukon/ US Gear would be 2nd choice for a street car. While you are hitting the strip, majority of driving is street.

IROCZman15

12-03-2020, 06:29 PM

cool, if anyone else has more feedback, feel free to chime on in. Would 3.91s be too non-street friendly? I kinda don't think so. I mean I used to run the 3.73 gears with the old TPI engine (and 700r4) from 2004-2019. The 3.73 ratio was never bad on the highway, and I was never looking to blast across the interstate at 90-100 mph anyways. I think anything in the 4.11, 4.xx range might be a little too much, but a 3.91 coupled with the 700r4 overdrive plus locking up t he converter would be just fine.

Larry, i did a quick search for the GM made gears, nobody seems to be selling those. would that be something I would really have to seek out or where can I find them? I was probably going to go for the "lightning finish" on the gears, and I don't think a GM gearset would offer the lightning treatment that Moser/Us gears does. Apparently it helps with break-in and stuff? Can the GM gears only be found used or new-old-stock ?

As for the 3.91 gear with nitrous, I am struggling at how to mathematically determine how my current 3.55s would work with nitrous too. If I were running a 100 shot I would probably be at the very top of 3rd gear crossing the finish line. However if I were to run the 200 or more shot I planned on running, I am pretty sure I would have to shift into 4th gear (overdrive is a 0.70 ratio) before the line so that is not optimal. If I ran the 3.91s I'd hope to be able to stay at the top of 3rd gear while crossing the line when running no nitrous (current setup), and on a small shot I'd be into 4th gear, but on a bigger shot I would be into the meat of 4th gear. Since I have no idea how to use math to figure this out, I am just doing my best guess.

Basically, I want the car for feel more alive and woken-up not only on the dragstrip, but especially on the street. I want to take people for rides and have that killer instant acceleration. It is pretty good now, but thinking the 3.91s would really deliver the "pinned in the seat" experience.

TaKid455

12-03-2020, 09:22 PM

With a 700, you have a 0.70 OD yielding you a 2.73 equivalent final drive with 3.91. With 27" tires, thats not bad. It comes to RPM *3 = MPH . Its your 1st gear that is a bit steep at 3.06. Coupled with your rear, thats a product of 11.96. I try to keep that number between 9-11 depending on combination. With 3.55, your at almost 11 . You could run the 3.91 w/ the 2.86(?) 1st gear in the 700. That would mean opening up the trans. Would also make the gear splits more even.

Blasting across interstates at 90-100...isn't that normal traffic?

IROCZman15

12-03-2020, 10:03 PM

haha, in New jersey on route 80, you are right...that is the norm sometimes!

So another friend of mine and I were chatting tonight and he enlightened me to exactly what you are talking about. Prior to two hours ago, I had never looked into this "starting line ratio" SLR math. I definitely trust you for tech advice Larry and my buddy who was explaining SLR. Using those Wallace Racing calculators I did exactly what you explained.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/calc-slr.php
You are right that the steep 1st gear of the 700r4/4l60 is a big factor. What you said about swapping out the 1st gear in the trans could be an option, but I was hoping not to have to pull the trans out of the car this year, or for a year. I could always do that 1st gear swap next time it ever comes out.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50677965297_d565ab4890_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50677982002_3e3f6f53a4_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50677899611_1d06840b60_c.jpg

As for highway cruising, I have noticed that when I activate lockup on the torque converter in OD on the highway, it usually pulls the rpms down about 400ish rpm.
So, for example, I took this photo while speedily-cruising on an open stretch of rt78 out in Pa on the way back from the UMI autoX event. I am used to locking up the converter and usually will coast at 85mph and be right at 2,500 rpms with these 3.55 gears. I think I did my math right?? If I were doing 85 mph with 3.91 gears and locked up converter... I would be at 2,753 rpms? If that math is right, thats not bad at all. (cross multiplication and such)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50160600952_7aef324411_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50160599717_296cf10fa4_c.jpg

Eventually I would like a set of stickier/taller tires, but for 2021 I am going to use the current 26.1" tall MT ET Street SS tires. If I could find a deal on the old style Centerline Convo-pro wheels, thats what I would drag race with and that would have a tall slick on it. Just not for 2021.

LTb1ow

12-04-2020, 07:11 AM

To muddy the waters some more.

I believe you said you want to spray a 200 shot, correct? Which, lets assume will net you 15-20mph on top end.

So your 115mph trap goes to ~135mph, which coupled with a 3.91 won't work with a 6000rpm WOT. Really won't work with 3.73s either.

Now, if you do 3.73s with a 28in tire, you can trap 135 at a 6000 WOT.

Food for thought.

IROCZman15

12-04-2020, 08:39 AM

Very good point
I really invite any and all comments and criticism and advice so feel free to keep it coming, anybody

So, you make sense matt, I see what you are saying. I think possibly eventually I’d try a 200 shot on a single progressive stage. I had the engine built for a 200 shot, so that’s about as high as I’d ever go, and I never wanted this car to be a nitrous hog, but more-so just be able to spray enough on the button to give me an upper hand in a serious race or to possibly spray my way into the high 10s from time to time. Not every weekend on a bracket race schedule.... so with that thought in mind, I’ve envisioned that I would simply just use my existing nitrous solenoids for a while. These are the fuel
And nitrous solenoids that came with my TPI kit and they flow up to a 150-175 shot. It would save me a few hundred$ in having to not buy new solenoids and also keep the shot more “safe” for the rings and such. Thoughts on a 150(or even 100) shot with those 3.91 and both a 26” and 28” tire ?

135 mph does seem like a lot of speed, Id be thrilled to get close to 130 if ever. I worry about the hood flying off (still debating on installing the hood pins, cosmetically it doesn’t jive with me yet).

Peak horsepower was at 6,000 rpms on the engine dyno. I'm comfortable revving it to about 6,400 in third gear to avoid shifting into OD , however I’ve taken it close to 6,700 at times in 1st and 2nd gear.

LTb1ow

12-04-2020, 08:54 AM

Ok lets assume a 10mph gain, trap 125mph on a 100-150 shot.

3.91s/26in/125mph is crossing the beams at 6300 top of third.

IMO, if you built the motor for 200 shot and you at some point plan on that use, go 3.73s, and buy 28in slicks when you want to spray it down later.

Blackbirdws6

12-04-2020, 09:27 AM

Can the car fit a 28" slick (assume some growth too) without cutting/hammering to all hell?

IROCZman15

12-04-2020, 09:30 AM

Good info

edit: and good point brian, With my lowered rear setup, and factory inner wheel-tubs, I have had doubts. one day I'm hoping to find someone at the track, at the end of a day where I could maybe bolt on one of their 28" wheel setups with a proper 3rd gen backspacing etc. It would take a lot of the guess work out of the equation by seeing it on the car and checking fitment in real life. I didn't have a chance to do that this past year and it wasn't on my priority list. I know it would be tight, and possibly too tight, especially if I were to street-drive the car to/from the track on the 28" tires. plus growth at speed on the top end too. ugh

It will probably several years before I pony up the money for the set of drag wheels/tires I truly want which will be 28” on a convo-pro wheel. So I’ll be running these 26” Mt et street SS for at least this year and probably next year too. maybe I can find someone next year to let me test fit a wheel.

Additionally,
I’m slightly used to the car performing under what it is supposed to do according to math and other similar cars. And, actually I’m ok with that... to an extent. I’m afraid I’ll be disappointed by the 3.73 switch with time/money invested. Mathematically I see what the calculators and people are suggesting... I then have to factor in that it’s not going to perform optimally perfect and add in a little error/fail percentage to any realistic expectations, just because that's how it goes for me doing this as a hobby.

The car will also get a bit heavier with the roll bar and vac pump and a few other items so I gotta compensate for that

wretched73

12-04-2020, 03:23 PM

Hook that nitrous up and see how she acts with the 3.55 first

I also still vote for manual brake over a vacuum pump, unless its crankcase vacuum

IROCZman15

12-04-2020, 10:02 PM

the nitrous is still a definite yes on my checklist, but I kinda had a goal of running fast enough N/A to get booted from the track for no roll-bar before "cheating" my way to that personal goal with the juice. its just One of those silly "life accomplishments" of mine basically. just run N/A 11.4x and then take the journey into seeing if a 100 shot or 150 shot will get me into the 10s. It would certainly save me some money (which my budget is quite tight this year) to not do the rear gear project, but I still crave a bit more instant neck-snapping performance from the car on the streets/strip/autoX. With no desire to adjust the converter and not wanting to always feed-my-need via the bottle, what else aside from a gear swap would get me more bang for the buck, and potentially get me a 11.49x from my mid-11.8s? But you could be right, i could plumb up the nitrous and just make a few hits with it to see what the car does with the 3.55 adn then make my decision afterwards.

I gotta research more about the manual brake setup. From my basic research I remember reading that the whole brake system really needs to be finely crafted and tuned. Any inferior component/setup could cause very undesirable braking. street/strip/autocross it all has to be capable of. I certainly have a small budget this year so I would not be able to afford more than about $500 towards sorting out teh brake issue, and reconstructing my brake system/components has the possibility to become expensive real quick. Manual brakes would look nice under the hood though, nice clean firewall without the ugly booster. Thats also one reason why I will not go with a hydroboost; no way is that ugly thing going to be under the hood (and its expensive). So, I will do some reading about manual brakes in the coming weeks. feel free to enlighten me as well though!

wretched73

12-05-2020, 08:59 AM

I dont remember if I posted this before or not

https://www.manualbrakes.com/3rd-gen--82--92.html

Pretty small investment IMO and the guy has already done all the research

IROCZman15

12-07-2020, 08:50 PM

look at that! awesome. one of the things that came up during my research was about the firewall flex, which is pretty noticeable in 3rd gen cars. looks like he includes a brace for it in the complete kit, so that is good.
his included link was also helpful: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brakes/724398-manual-brake-installation-pictures.html

-one thing that would cause me a little bit of pain, would be having to redo all my nice clean new NiCop brake lines and how they are mounted into the freshly painted engine bay. that's a bit of a detractor as I took a lot of time to weld up any holes in the Sheetmetal and it would be unpleasant to see the drill holes remaining if I had to move/redo the lines https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49436585516_48e31c2127_c.jpg

manual brakes would get ride of some weight (booster) and clean up the components under the hood, I am just hesitant to try something so new/unknown to me. However, it would also make me not ADD weight to the car either, by avoiding the weight of an electric vac pump in the nose of the car.

Yet, at the bottom of his page, in yellow writing, he specifies that "non low-drag calipers are mandatory" he lists the calipers that fit this description. I run a Corvette brake setup (1Le style I think is the same??) with C4HD calipers up front and C4 calipers in the rear. they are a PBR caliper. I think I would need to contact him to see that my calipers/pads would work?

wretched73

12-08-2020, 06:46 AM

I'd reach out to him and run your concerns by him.

IIRC autocross and road course guys preferred manual brakes over vacuum assist due to the improved pedal feel

IROCZman15

12-08-2020, 10:46 AM

yup, that's exactly what I have been reading. Thanks for pointing me towards researching manual brakes. I've read a bunch about manual brakes and watched some videos about it too. You are right about autoX and road course cars using them. The Detroit Speed DSE-Z car used them too. If I had known this might be a route I might possibly take when I was redoing the engine bay, I would have probably done the brake lines differently and firewall area differently. It would be tough for me to start reconfiguring that area, filling sheetmetal holes, painting, etc.

I am going to reach out to the guy you mentioned and describe my current setup to see what he thinks.

IROCZman15

12-09-2020, 08:40 AM

I got an email back from him explaining the kit in more detail. Part of the email he explained what I should do about the master cylinder:

" With the brake setup you described, you should be able to use a smaller bore master cylinder.

I would suggest a 7/8" bore master cylinder with your setup. The smaller bore will give you higher line pressures and more clamping forces at the caliper over a larger bore master cylinder. The master cylinder in the KIT has 3/8-24 inverted flare fittings which will match your Wilwood prop valve, so you will need to run new lines down to the prop valve. The master cylinder outlets are on the driver's side of the master cylinder, so it will be away from the header heat.

I will guarantee my system and the size of the master cylinder. If for ANY reason you do not like the performance of the manual brake setup, you can return it for a full refund. No questions ask. I want you to be satisfied with what you bought from me."

So, thats good news. I'm glad to learn all of this. I am still partially un-interested in re-doing any of the brake lines, especially moving them so that I have unsightly holes (5 at least) in the sheetmetal. Overall, its not a major amount of work, but if I do it and the pads/calipers/components are unhappy, well, that would be a problem.

He attached the directions for the whole install kit, but I don't want to make a bad move by posting it here without his permission.

-edit* another thing I forgot to mention, is that when i want to line-lock the front brakes for a burnout (either at teh track or secret street location), the line-lock works, but the booster doesn't have enough vacuum in it to really hold the car back for more than a few seconds.* how would manual brakes work with this line-lock issue...* *for a vac pump, the vacuum would be there (22" of vac compared to my 7.5" of vac) so in theory, the line lock should be useful because the booster is getting proper vac for full power-assist.* right? do manual brakes even work with a line-lock?.. I will ask the guy who builds the kits

So, I am on the fence about the brake situation still. I have a thread on Thirdgen.org about this also, and one of the prevailing thoughts is to just keep using the car. The brakes do work good.. its just not "performance braking". At this point I have three options to choose from:
A. don't do anything just yet
B. vacuum pump for brakes during street and autox driving and then plumb the vac pump line over to the crankcase during drag racing to pull vac on the engine.
C. manual brake conversion, probably could work good, but I'm hesitant to make a bigger change to the system than I planned on.

I have to keep in mind that this summer I did suffer a blown out brake booster....and I don't want to keep doing that.

.

Aside from that, I am waiting a few more weeks, but I think I am going to probably go ahead with the 3.91 gears. If I can test fit a 28" tire off of a 3rd gens next year that will eventually be the route I will go for drag racing. Money budget being extra tight this year I want to look for the most "bang for the buck" modifications. Knowing my Nitto 555 tires are not the best for the street or autocross, I might have to put money towards 4 tires for better street/autoX driving. Not going to do exhaust this year that is for sure. Hopefully the roll bar and hopefully plumb the nitrous. Will probably do the gears here at my house since my neighbor has the tools and he has done some gear projects in his day. I have only helped on a 9" for rear before and back in 2003 I "helped" put in my richmond 3.73's with a mechanic. It will be a new thing for me to learn and do ... I am pretty sure that the MT Et Street SS street radial is up to the task of a better launch, but my street car suspension is the unknown variable..as to how well it will handle things. Perhaps I can bring my 1.64-1.66 sixty foot into the 1.5x zone and yank a small wheelie in the process.

12-09-2020, 12:15 PM

In regards to the line lock, from my understanding, the booster should be irrelevant. Aside from initially applying the brakes. If you apply the line lock and within a few seconds the car can roll again, the it would seem the line lock solenoid is bleeding off the pressure.

IROCZman15

12-09-2020, 01:02 PM

good point, yea actually I can't tell if its the fact that I can't really get a strong brake pedal press creating the line pressure, or if its just that the drag radials are getting sticky during the burnout and overpowering the front brakes.

the way it "feels" to me, is that when I press the brake pedal and activate the line lock, its only moderately pressurized because the lack of vacuum (7.5") feeding the booster isn't allowing the booster to do its job properly, so in turn brake pressure and line pressure at the caliper is minimal.
-- I could be totally mis-thinking this, so if anyone knows, feel free to explain it better to me. All I know is that with the old TPI engine I could line lock the car 1st-2nd-and into 3rd gear and it would hold my extended fun burnouts. I had proper vac to the booster then, and now, not so much.

A test/solution I wish I knew about before winter arrived was to put the car in neutral, revv up the engine high, and let it drop down to create vacuum on the brake booster, then put the car into gear and line-lock it (or launch it). Apparently some guys with similar setups like mine will do this. Free rev the engine while on the starting lien in neutral, build that vacum as the throttle blades are closed, put it into gear and footbrake stage the car, footbrake launch. I had never tried this. I was launching from a low vac idle and pushing through the brakes. same for linelock. never free-revved it prior.

wretched73

12-09-2020, 03:36 PM

Manual brakes all the way. You can run the lines and reuse those holes.

No brake booster will make under the hood look way better.

IROCZman15

12-09-2020, 04:39 PM

I would certainly not keep those lines and holes where thy are, that would look way weird for the lines to be so far forward fromt eh firewall and then head back towards the firewall. I'd have to run new lines and mount them differently. also the line lock. I do dig the no-booster appearance. I'm emailing backand forth withthe manual-brakes guy and he didnt steer me away from the vac pump, in all honesyty he said

he said " The least intrusive would be to try the vacuum pump. I would do some research on it, but make sure it can supply the vacuum needed at all times. I am not 100% sure how they work as I have not researched it enough.

You also have a choice in master cylinders. You don't have to use the master cylinder in the KIT. You can go with aftermarket Wilwood if you want for a little more "BLING". You will shed 9 pounds of weight with having no booster"

so, yea, good info,
I just wish I knew this back in January. I should ask, have you had any cars with manual brakes, or has anybody here, and any details can be shared both good/bad.

wretched73

12-09-2020, 06:55 PM

I had a late 80s s10 with manual brakes. Brake feel was great, it was smooth and consistent every time you stepped on the pedal

IROCZman15

01-17-2021, 04:34 PM

I am still waiting for my 3.91 gearset to arrive from amazon, it has been a nightmare. I ordered it on Jan 4th when they had 2 left in stock. over those two weeks, it did not ship, then it was out of stock for a few days, then I was told it will arrive jan 17, then this morning I was told they canceled my order altogether and don't have any. The past 5 consecutive days on the phone with amazon and many half-answers later, it looks like I will have to find the 3.91 gearset elsewhere. This is not a popular ratio and US gear won't sell me one directly as they don't have any to sell?!? US gear was also recently bought out by a bigger company (that works on excavating equipment) who now handles their customer service and they were of little help. When I talked to Moser on Jan 4th they told me they had 1 remaining 3.91 gearset left in stock, but it was not treated with the Iso-micro finish and if I wanted to get that upgrade, I would have to wait 3-4 weeks for them to send it out and get it back, prior to sending it to me and it would also be pretty costly. Thats why I looked elsewhere and saw that 2 were available on amazon on Jan 4th; and these exact US gear ones were already ISO treated and were a cheaper price.. No luck finding one on Summit or Jegs or anywhere. Places like Mark Williams say they have it on their website, but I am wondering if they just list it as for sale and it ships from elsewhere. So, today, after amazon told me it was hopeless for amazon to fulfill my order, I placed an online order for it on Mosers website, hoping that they still have that one gearset left in stock. I already ordered the 12 bolt install kit (shims, gasket, bearings) from Moser and it is here at my house. I also have the 80-90 NON-synthetic Lucas gear oil that they recommend. I really just need the ring and pinion so I can get to work. Fingers crossed!

I had wired up the 2-step rev limiter in October real quick and just put it on a push-hold on/off button in the ashtray with the nitrous controls. I only had 1 day at the track to test it, but I found that it was a bit non-user friendly for me to hold my foot on the throttle, another on the brake, AND hold the 2-step button while staging.... and trying to release the button at the exact moment that I release the brake pedal. I did well on my first attempt but on pass #2 and #3 I didn't get an even/clean release. I didn't want the 2-step on the steering wheel or on the shifter, so I thought, hmm what about putting it on the brake pedal, and also include a master toggle switch so I don't accidentally bump it. So thats what I did.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50837119577_f77b1cc06e_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50846668521_3004003511_c.jpg

So, in order for the 2-step rev limiter to work I have to (1)have it ENABLED in the sniper tune(handheld) and this is also where I set the rpm I want it to be at. (2)I also have to have the master arming switch (in ashtray) flipped to ON, ... and (3) I have to push down the momentary release style button on the brake pedal using my foot. It works! I also made the button's head removable, so that I could simply pluck it out and put it in my center console storage if it seems to catch on my shoe. Without the button head on the brake pedal I can NOT accidentally push the button in. I know the brake pedal pad is clunky and ugly, but to me it is better than the skinny little oem brake pedal.

Now, all I have to do while staging is hold the brake pedal (and the incorporated button) to the floor while also holding the throttle to the floor and as soon as my left leg lifts off the brake, the 2-step button releases at the exact same time. If I am ever worried about knocking the button downs track, I will probably just click the manual on/off toggle switch to OFF after I shift from 2nd-3rd gear while at halftrack.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50846668561_1f47443517_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50846756252_7eeb9ae29b_c.jpg

I finally got some time to install my new Dash camera system and so far it is workign great. I need to play with the settings and experiment on sunny days, but so far so good. I might move the rear camera 1" lower, but time will tell.
I will type up the details in this other thread:
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69194

fingers crossed I can get this 3.91 gearset.

LTb1ow

01-18-2021, 07:46 AM

That's why I had a steering wheel push button and brake switch for my 2step. Don't want to remember to manually un arm system and don't want to engage 2 step at top end decel.

IROCZman15

01-18-2021, 08:26 AM

yup! I remember reading about it in your thread a few weeks ago. Your gameplan/layout certainly makes sense; my car I want to keep the steering wheel button free, so I decided to go with the brake-pedal release button. So, similar concept, different placement of switches to complete the circuit.

As long as I simply flip the toggle switch to OFF after the 2-3 shift, I'll never have a problem. I'm usually pretty "bored" in the back-half of the track, so flipping the switch OFF will give me something to do! Also, I never use that left side area of my brake pedal, so its very unlikely that I'd have my foot over there. And my non-drag racing tune files will just have the 2-step limiter disabled in the tune file itself, so that should also be safe. Makes sense to me.

01-18-2021, 08:48 AM

Does the Sniper allow for some type of setting in addition to just enabling the 2step? Like a mph range, where you could set it to that anything over 5mph, the 2 step wont engage? That way it would work on the line, but once you're down track, a rare chance of hitting the button wouldnt do anything.

IROCZman15

01-18-2021, 09:10 AM

I am pretty sure on the more elaborate Holley EFI systems (HP, dominator, etc) they allow those parameters. On the sniper, I can only click a check box to enable it or not. I know exactly what ya mean, but the sniper software is the most basic of the Holley stuff.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50849346212_f8623ffa10_c.jpg

Blackbirdws6

01-18-2021, 09:19 AM

Looks like a nice and user-friendly solution to simplify the process. Hope the delivery comes through for you. Amazon customer service has been slipping when you need to actually get an item.

sweetbmxrider

01-18-2021, 05:51 PM

What if you had a micro switch on the throttle body that depressed at WOT and fed a relay that completed the brake pedal switch circuit? I can sketch it out if you are interested.

IROCZman15

01-18-2021, 08:11 PM

I think I can visualize what you are saying, it makes some sense circuit wise. I do want to keep the throttle body and underhood area streamlined and clean so I'd have to find a way to neatly mount a microswitch. It might be an option if my current setup does not seem to be as user-friendly as I hope it will be. It may even turn out that I won't like using the 2-step at the launch anyways. If ya feel like making a diagram and posting it here for my (or other peoples) future use, that would be cool.

Spoke to Moser Engineering this morning and they did have a 3.91 gearset, so I had them ship it on over to me. It should be here at the end of the week. Amazon gave me a $50 gift card for their error and my troubles, but oh well.

So, I hope maybe if I have some time this Sunday, to drop the whole rear axle out of the car and start the gear install project. Since I really haven't done a gear swap/install before I figured it is best to roll the whole rear axle out from under the car and work on it on jackstands..instead of fighting everything around while working under the car . I have the gasket, the moser install kit, 3 quarts of Lucas 80-90 gear oil (non synthetic), my neighbor has a micrometer and he might even have a pinion depth checking tool. My setup used a solid-pinion spacer and no crush sleeve.

sweetbmxrider

01-19-2021, 11:16 AM

Could mount the switch to catch the gas pedal inside the car as well

IROCZman15

01-20-2021, 09:33 PM

that is very true, that would be hidden for sure. good thinking!

I didn't get home today till 9:15pm, so I missed the Atco zoom meeting, but I see that jim said it was postponed. Cool

-when I did get home it was awesome to see a UPS package arrived with my new gearset from Moser/US Gear. It was scheduled to arrive tomorrow, but I am relieved that Moser had a set in stock. Amazon gave me a $50 gift card for their error,. The set I got from Moser is not ISO-treated, and that is fine; my current 3.55 gears are also not treated.

Anyways, If I get some time Friday I plan to remove the rear from the car and hopefully get the new 3.91 gearset installed on Sunday.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50858294206_917609a805_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50857578428_f0bf6b67cd_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50858394767_598bec353b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50858294196_e263432979_c.jpg

I am excite!

IROCZman15

01-22-2021, 07:11 PM

Had a few hours this afternoon to remove the rear from the car. All went just fine, no issues except the driveshaft's u-joint nuts were more stubborn than they needed to be; locktite red I used last time. everything else came out/apart real easy.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50864826396_c768b3f724_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50864826386_5692c14ca5_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50864930772_6efed1aaa1_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50864115528_8638890a29_c.jpg
That white suds/liquid on the internals is just spray-degreaser that looks weird on camera

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50864930752_a742be8605_c.jpg

Hoping to do the ring/pinion removal and install on sunday afternoon. It will be my first time.

LTb1ow

01-23-2021, 11:49 AM

Remember the ring gear bolts are reverse thread AFAIK

IROCZman15

01-24-2021, 07:26 PM

I thought they would be also, my old 3.73 richmond gears on my old 10 bolt were reverse thread. These were not though.

Today I got pretty far, and I think I am super close to being able to button up the housing and get it back under the car.

existing 3.55 gearset removal:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872277641_f4a309fa1d_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50871576063_71ae47fffd_c.jpg

3.91 install:

Starting with the pinion's rotational drag, I have it set somewhere between the 14-18 inch pounds range. not break away torque, but rotational. this is what moser and US gears calls for.

see video (sorry, hard to film and turn at the same time) the photo below was not taken at desired/proper drag, but its the only photo I had that was not blurry. video is kinda better...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54_jH_rWrfg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872381217_f368bca691_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50871576123_62aaa3b224_c.jpg

reused the pinion races and pinion bearings. Moser said i could and should do this since my 3.55 gearset was so new and only had 6,000 miles on it since March 2018. If something went wrong, I had new bearings to use, but all went well and the new bearings are in a box still. I used a 3shim combination to get a total of 0.0425" on top of the solid pinion spacer. I did put in a new pinion seal.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872277761_eb73a40efa_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50871576133_4efa8f3e0a_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872381282_ec4ecfc16b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872277786_bd59f4a4fd_c.jpg

Used the existing carrier bearings and races also. Adjusted the sim packs on each side, and the carrier is SNUG in the housing. Can not be pulled out by hand, need a pry bar to gently coax it out. Main caps are torqued down, but not lock-tited yet just in case anyone sees something that I need to adjust.

Backlash is right around 0.0090 and 0.010. This is in spec, but the only thing I notice is a "knock/thunk" from the teeth contacting eachother. I am ASSUMING this is normal on a bone-dry set of new gears. You can hear the noise in the video. Is this normal for a dry gearset?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oByzPG-Sb24

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872381257_91dd300a38_c.jpg

desired pattern chart:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872457617_287abd0e42_c.jpg

current COAST tooth pattern:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872354341_40a276670b_c.jpg

current DRIVE tooth pattern:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50872457582_5fb63e696f_c.jpg

It took me about 4 times taking the carrier out and re-shimming it to get the current backlash and contact pattern. Might have initially used too much yellow paste, as it got everywhere so I had to do a cleanup of stuff and re-try it.

So, thats where I am at. if the pattern is as good as it needs to be, GREAT. and, if that clunk noise while checking backlash is normal for a new set of unlubricated gears, then that is also good.

IROCZman15

01-26-2021, 07:28 PM

Pretty much almost finished...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50876098106_dde2a1de84_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50875392058_fca91788b9_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50876202952_fb6fbafa91_z.jpg

Got everything buttoned up after making one small shim adjustment to the pinion's solid spacer. It was just a bit too tight, now it is perfect for rotational drag. Put the housing cover on, added the recommended NON-SYNTHETIC Lucas 80-90 gear oil and tightened up the main cap support bolts in the cover. Hung the axle back in the car and got everything back into place.
- I am seriously debating removing the emergency/parking brake cables and assembly from the rear discs. I never use the brake, and they are always a pain in the butt when I go to get the calipers mounted. Always a hassle. Might remove them and leave the handle inside the car (for aesthetics).

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50878836703_af10a1eaf4_z.jpg

Did a very brief test after bolting on the wheels and bleeding the brakes. This was NOT to break the rear in, but just to make sure I didn't hear or see any odd noises from the rear, driveshaft, brakes, or anything.

Short video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ibYF7_vYo

I will get the car out soon to do a road test and break in the gears according to what Moser and US Gear recommends:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50879644237_5ec3974d48_z.jpg

Then I will get under the car, wipe everything down clean, lube the suspension, and check the torque on all the bolts/fasteners. i also want to check/adjust my driveline angle too. That should do it!

wretched73

01-26-2021, 08:29 PM

Looks great, I'm anxious to find out how you like the new gear ratio. Too bad NJ just dumped a god awful amount of salt on the roads

IROCZman15

02-03-2021, 04:43 PM

I got smart/lucky a few days ago when I decided to do the break-in and road test of the new gearset, because now after this massive snow storm, it is really unlikely that I will have the car out for a few weeks. Here in my hometown we got 28-30" of snowfall. WILD

Anyway, when I did the road test I could definitively tell that the acceleration was better. It gave me a big smile when I did a few short "pulls" after completing the break in session. This gear swap was a great idea. I will patiently wait until Island opens in April to get a true real-world timeslip to measure the actual improvement in acceleration.

IROCZman15

02-14-2021, 07:26 PM

Took the car out for a few miles on Friday despite the salt on the roads. Wanted to check a few things over and I knew I would be fully cleaning the underside this weekend anyways. Got on the throttle a few times and I am very happy with how much better the acceleration is.

Spent a good amount of time making sure my driveline angles were all good and the pinion angle also. I am happy with it. Used the Tremec app and the iphone angle finder apps because that magnetic angel-finder from home depot just wasn't precise enough for me. I wanted the transmission to point downward a little bit more and since it is not the time to build a custom dropped trans cross-member, I built some shims to put in-between the body and the cross-member out of 1/8" aluminum plate. This gave me the downward angle I was looking for, for now. . Also swapped in a 45 tooth speedometer drive gear so that the speedometer reads correctly now with the 3.91 rear ratio.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50943853263_1053577046_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50943853398_f4de09ce17_c.jpg

those numbers above wont make sense to you unless you use the app

these might make more sense though.. but please note, these photos were taken (and posted) not in order. this is just showing what my figured I was working with were at the time.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50944654847_e3a0473abf_c.jpg

Hit every polyurethane and roto-joint with the clear marine grade grease. Used regular grease on all the steering components. I always underestimate how messy that clear grease gets. After everything else was done underneath I gave the underside a wipe down and got everything cleaned. Checked over many nuts and bolts, and as it sits, everything underneath the car is pretty much complete and ready to drive for the year.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50944655852_c539b20fee_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50943852958_96e54181a1_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50943839503_20a1145be7_c.jpg

thats it for now, if anything under the car grabs your attention (good or bad), just shout it out to me. hold all comments about the exhaust, that will be next winters project.

The_Bishop

02-16-2021, 03:40 PM

Those double-adjustable rear control arms, when you put them together did you grease or anti-seize the threads? If you do any amount of wet weather driving it's a fair bet that those will rust up, happened to me.

Blackbirdws6

02-16-2021, 06:00 PM

So clean. Very nice!

IROCZman15

02-16-2021, 07:20 PM

Bishop, yup I always use the silver anti-sieze on the chassis parts. I paint the threads and then get everything adjusted. I then wipe off the excess with a rag and after that then I hit the aluminum with some 0 grade steel wool to get them clean looking. As I am sure you are aware, the anti-sieze is a magnet for debris, so the less excess of it exposed, the less gunk will live up in the exposed threads. However, if you meant when i initially installed them several years ago, I know I used some antisieze, but I am not sure that the entire length of the threads that are "encapsulated" int he tube were liberally coated. Do you mean that moisture got into the tube part of the bar and caused rust to the threads inside the tube?

Thanks Brian. it will get dirty soon, in fact I took it out for a few miles today to check over the adjustments and for any driveline noises and vibrations. none existed, but I was only able to get up to about 60 mph on the roads today. Lots of snow melt puddles in the road that I could not avoid, so I splashed some of the underside up already. Gave the car a much needed wash today, which it hasn't been washed since November. With everything now good underneath, I will go along and use a paint-marker on the chassis adjustments and some of the underside bolts.

I also changed out the magnefine in-line magnetic transmission filter too, but did not cut open the old one yet. The fluid that dripped out from it was very clean and cherry red. nice. I am ready for driving season, having to wait stinks. Still about 1.5 months before island is open. bummer

IROCZman15

03-14-2021, 05:42 PM

had the car out a few times over the past few weeks, but today I did a bit of a longer drive and put 30 miles on it to check some things in the tune and datalog. Also, finally got the car up to "higher speeds" and there is no noticeable driveline vibration or noise with speeds in excess of 100 mph, so I think the gear project is a success. The car does pull well in all gears now when compared to how it was with the 3.55 gears.

Planning on doing the electric vacuum pump setup for the brake booster. Then I can run my fixed orifice PVC valve to the big vacuum opening on the sniper and cleanup the hoses back there. I keep in touch with a few other car buddies and some racers/street guys who do recommend an electric vacuum pump. There are a few complete kits I've seen, and a few options where I could buy the pump, buy the relay, and buy the pressure switch.

One of the better pump options that is more affordable is the GM pump that came on new gen Impalas and malibus. GM part # UP28. I have found them as low as $60 online, but here is a link to an AC Delco version of the pump. https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-20804130-Original-Equipment-Auxiliary/dp/B0049HEJFW/ref=pd_bxgy_3/139-4087908-5606441?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0049HEJFW&pd_rd_r=9264bfdd-ff7d-43ce-9f4d-d5457e1d649d&pd_rd_w=xj1lN&pd_rd_wg=4zkgC&pf_rd_p=f325d01c-4658-4593-be83-3e12ca663f0e&pf_rd_r=A299BKY05ZQ5759P4CVB&psc=1&refRID=A299BKY05ZQ5759P4CVB I would wire up a relay so the pump would turn on when the engine is on (not key on), and I would also want the setup that has an in-line sensor which will turn the pump(relay) on/off when the vacuum is within the proper range. Generally this vacuum range is 18-22", . I have read mixed reviews about various sensors, and some sensors are not adjustable, while some are, but later become faulty? Here is what I am talking about: https://www.amazon.com/Superior-K058-Universal-Adjustable-Vacuum/dp/B0778KLW7H/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 or this one (yes it says psi, but those psi numbers are in range for inches of mercury vacuum) https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source=GoogleShopping&IgnoreRedirect=true&ItemSingleId=39137025

here are a few pumps, and also a few kits. Everything has most good reviews and some bad reviews. The top of my budget for this project is $250 done and done. The Leeds $400 pump setup is just too far out of my budget despite how people seem to love it.

- https://www.speedwaymotors.com/The-Right-Stuff-28146-Electric-Brake-Vacuum-Pump,50355.html

- https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/63016/10002/-1

- https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/63016/10002/-1#reviewTab

- https://www.ebay.com/itm/393027940072?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACQBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252 Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkBIiL%252Ft03F08hHU2esq6F%25 2BxhVH9WT7pKfdMiFQdgNxwlGBXeJsUkmqCBbkiarhI0VltiFZ cC4cr%252F8T6dnE0C7OkGiJg1nYwK%252BxQocsfQLHdE%252 FQgbQp9R65G%252FV6%252BAfAxSeP98%252FqLUgOTbOWyxNv SIep13fufM1PHonGcPhIIxR5aaFQp8w9imGP%252Fh6f3sNhCr kXYOZNrvzLAqdpxqKoTw33unYX%252FgKbeWEkVuhxbACtYEQ5 1cT8ChfsRWd4gDW9NvC1k7GPZITBf4zV0ZH29Lw%252FSnMfk8 PFnbuT2MMwIIqlNME%252FVhszAtjpuWB6oyGZc0nkMx9sRqem wPGlYqe8fP%252FOlxVSJwPUDGih%252BYwsdwH9uMau5afj8u 2e%252FEQKuPaHMaEVRCYkfiNo5ANYiA2va6NoLi520tlIC1Ua ShVT32MKoQDILTVx5NDVtj9rA%252B7735zbTHCFwv%252FnFE 0crL53QkEzP5Z0XyBRKVHzJtB1Dl5z7582l%252BIT4pMiZZvf %252BJVXUGXo6fx6dvck2aECb8BkvY8UgOm%252B7%252FVKLA NBEg9nfxTbxi0UcVpOjAjBLQcBflgVAenBUMKLX%252BVp00vh qyVm0ZQQsxLwsC7C1GYqfyPeO1srD%252FSWlCwSBAarLqMWV1 12EAi%252FYbFu4Awc2Zx7ENddRmmI1r9fnusdKDXzB%252Bnc 5WMDb60N%252FsPRhjR%252BrVmMJkd65HG3z11ObaNH1cX60V A3DR4xw%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A3930279400720c69a2885e 5d458c8f6268180d9f9540%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A32 68220&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=393027940072&targetid=1068323859070&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9003736&poi=&campaignid=10459841979&mkgroupid=104612009460&rlsatarget=pla-1068323859070&abcId=2146002&merchantid=6296724&gclid=CjwKCAiAhbeCBhBcEiwAkv2cY6k5FkO3dJ4J0SjZXOBy hwnh9qprivSLVRHDOsePMjhJSTxMrnlNyxoCnSwQAvD_BwE

- https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-20804130-Original-Equipment-Auxiliary/dp/B0049HEJFW/ref=pd_bxgy_3/139-4087908-5606441?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0049HEJFW&pd_rd_r=9264bfdd-ff7d-43ce-9f4d-d5457e1d649d&pd_rd_w=xj1lN&pd_rd_wg=4zkgC&pf_rd_p=f325d01c-4658-4593-be83-3e12ca663f0e&pf_rd_r=A299BKY05ZQ5759P4CVB&psc=1&refRID=A299BKY05ZQ5759P4CVB

- https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-20939309-Original-Equipment-Assembly/dp/B00B4LERJ4/ref=psdc_15722551_t2_B075JYWCBJ

- https://www.amazon.com/Auxiliary-Electric-Assembly-Chevrolet-009428081/dp/B07Z3L8C9S/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

- https://www.amazon.com/Booster-Vacuum-Assembly-20804130-31317530/dp/B075JYWCBJ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

- https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-760152

aside from that, with Island opening up in a few weeks, I will start looking to get the tune stuff worked out. The car feels a few tenths quicker and that is with these street tires spinning on cold roads.

The_Bishop

03-15-2021, 09:36 AM

You might want to factor in some type of vacuum reservoir, as well.

IROCZman15

03-15-2021, 06:00 PM

I have thought about that for a while too. It was my first thought last year when I realized I needed more vac for the brake booster, to run a reservoir can. Old school style.

I think I want to try the vac pump on its own first. Spent lots of time reading about it and most people have success with just the pump. Some have used the pump along with a reservoir too. At this point, I am starting to watch how much weight and items I continue to add to the car and where I put them. Also, adding a can means more connection points, fittings and potential leak points. I can easily add the can later on if needed, but at this point, I might put it as "plan B". I do appreciate your advice. Thanks !

sweetbmxrider

03-16-2021, 05:37 AM

Lt1s have a plastic one stock iirc.

The_Bishop

03-16-2021, 07:37 AM

The main reason I mentioned adding the can is that the brake booster, when depressed, might need more vacuum than the pump can provide in a 'surge' which may result in an odd brake feel or worse yet, bad brake performance in the case of a sudden/panic stop. The reservoir should be a nearly inconsequential amount of weight for the benefit derived, and while it does add two more connection points to the system I'd think that would be a non-issue with the appropriate care in making those connections and clamping them.

IROCZman15

03-16-2021, 01:26 PM

Yea, the more I think about what you guys are saying the more I agree. I used to have the oem plastic vacuum ball but I sold that off during one of my last parts sell-offs online. Damn. Do you think that small vacuum ball would be good enough for volume ? I was initially thinking of one of those bigger metal tanks and trying to hide that under the car would be more of a challenge compared to that vacuum ball. Thoughts ?

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-help-vacuum-storage-canister-47077/22148574-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=22148574-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrsGCBhD1ARIsALILBYoA_pE9gQl5MaJbOLz_ 5LVirk7xLkdsirI-FDZMYzir7GLv4stw8FwaAlljEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://www.carid.com/dorman/vacuum-storage-canister-mpn-47077.html

sweetbmxrider

03-16-2021, 02:18 PM

https://m.plusmore.com/hvac/hvac_control_vacuum_tank/10188042/1993_2002/Pontiac/Firebird

Mounted under passenger frame area near horns on 4th gen. This isn’t exactly oem but similar.

LTb1ow

03-16-2021, 05:35 PM

All of those are for minimal flow stuff, IE HVAC valves, 4x4 etc...

If you are planning to store vac for brake use, I doubt that tiny line will flow anything worth a damn.

sweetbmxrider

03-16-2021, 05:46 PM

True, it does specify hvac.

IROCZman15

03-16-2021, 07:55 PM

good point!

I did some quick eyeball measuring and my brain is starting to formulate a plan. I think that I can install a normal sized metal vac can under the drivers side front "battery tray" area, ahead of the wheel well. most vac cans are about 5"x7" and I would want a little bit of room on each side of it. https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/63010/10002/-1
Since this was originally the area I was going to mount the electric vac pump in, along with the switch, I will then have to move the vacuum pump over to the area underneath the battery tray on the passenger side. Directly above this is where I actually have the 12V power distribution block and my relays for my cooling fans. So, I could put my vac pump relay next to these relays, get my 12 volt power from the nearby distribution block, and run the ground wire directly over to my huge grounding through-bolt in the front frame which is also tied to the block and to the battery. However, i would then have to run the relay's signal wire back to the dash (fuse panel) so that the pump only runs when the key/engine is on. Nothing else up front by the headlight bar that I could tap into for a key-on signal. Oh well. The its simply a matter of neatly running the hoses and the in-line switch.

Was hoping to get to this project before Island opens up on April 3rd, but its not a necessity. I can absolutely make some passes with the car as it sits now, so whenever I get this vac pump system in, that will be ok.

wretched73

03-16-2021, 08:51 PM

Honest question, Can you add just the can? Will the can store vacuum that your engine naturally makes?

Then you don't have to put in the pump

IROCZman15

03-17-2021, 07:20 PM

I think so. This was a thought early on. I dont know why I so quickly dismissed the idea actually. I think once I started doing some research on the topic I kept seeing the use of a vacuum pump and thought, well, that sounds like a better option. The can is cheap enough and is a simple install. I think I will definitely have an improvement with using a can, and if the power brake vacuum is still not up to my liking, I can just order a pump, switch, and relay and add it to the system in conjunction with the can. I think I am going to do this actually. I don't see any negative reasons why I shouldn't. Probably a $40 can like the Jegs one in black or wrinkle finish. 10 feet of rubber line. Cool!

The_Bishop

03-18-2021, 03:14 PM

Well, it all depends on how much vacuum the engine makes. If the booster needs 12"hg and the engine only makes 10" hg, you're still going to have issues. The reservoir can't 'make' vacuum. The pump will ensure you have enough vacuum to operate the brakes and the HVAC stuff, provided it's still in the car.

IROCZman15

03-18-2021, 08:29 PM

absolutely true. that is something I am aware of. with the engine ring gapped for nitrous, and the cam profile, I know that I won't make the 22 inches of vacuum that the booster wants to have. The canister will just hold more vac as a reserve for the brakes, but it wont be 22. the Holley Datalogs (see many previous pages of this thread) are defaulted to MAP and kpa readings instead of vacuum. Doing the math, I know I will fall short. we shall see!

I ordered the tank last night and probably will install it sunday. I will get to try it out a bit and then go to Island on April 3rd to really test it out. Several racers have recommended that I could get a bit more brake vacuum for staging and launching by putting the car in neutral while rolling to the line and giving the engine a few revvs. I might try this too.

IROCZman15

03-21-2021, 07:24 PM

Got the vacuum canister installed today. Mounted it under the drivers side inner fender. Used 3/8" hose from the snipers 3/8" vacuum port routed to the 1-way valve at the tank. then 3/8" hose from the tank to the brake booster which also has a 1-way valve. There is a n unused port on the vacuum canister that I put a pipe-plug in to seal it off, but I am considering maybe buying a small vacuum gauge to put in there and then maybe setup my Go-Pro camera nearby so I can see some numbers during street, strip, and autoX driving. maybe. Thoughts?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51060949782_5543f18849_c.jpg

Took the car out for a good 45 minute drive. Certainly much more consistent brakes. I took a bunch of highway exit ramps where I purposely went heavy and long pumps on the brake pedal and I was able to get a lot more long brake pedal pushes compared to how it used to be. Awesome!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51060866246_5184994412_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51060949787_364338a065_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51060152168_28baecd787_c.jpg

sweetbmxrider

03-22-2021, 05:54 AM

If you have a spot, you could run a line inside the car and mount the gauge in there.

LTb1ow

03-22-2021, 06:53 AM

Does the sniper not have a MAP sensor?

IROCZman15

03-22-2021, 01:22 PM

I actually have an aftermarket vacuum gauge in the dashboard of my Jeep Wrangler. I watch it sometimes while driving, I might do that one day but I don’t yet have an area where I want to put more gauges onto in the camaro. I never wanted the inside of the car to be bombarded with dozens of gauges. If I can do it tastefully , that could be an option.

The sniper's display does have a MAP sensor and Map reading display in kPa. Actually most tuning tables are based off the map sensor. So I can watch it while I drive, BUT that won’t tell me how much inches of vacuum is stored in the tank, it will just show what the engine is making at that moment. Right ? It also measures kPa and not vacuum so I would kinda have to do the calculations in my head while driving? There are conversion charts on Holleys websites, but it would be nice if I could have the display read inches/mercury instead of kPa.

The idea behind the go pro camera would be for me to have a general idea of what the vacuum tank itself retains when I’m coming off of a heavy throttle situation or free-revving the engine. I know it makes 8” at idle, but I’d like to actually see what it makes on deceleration and with a few revvs of the throttle while staging the car? Thoughts ?

LTb1ow

03-22-2021, 07:55 PM

Can you change the unit on the display to show inHg?

Can you add on sensors to the sniper?

IROCZman15

03-22-2021, 08:49 PM

I've actually searched for exactly that for a while, and never got a clear answer, so the answer must be no. I think the sniper can only display a kPa and a psi reading(in the boost parameter). You have to use "math channels" in the display or something like that to enable it to do its thing. If it could possibly be changed to inches/mercury, I've never seen anyone write up how to do this. Sniper does allow for some inputs into one of the weather pack connectors. Its nothing like what the Holey HP or Dominator can do, this is a base holley setup, so it wasn't designed for lots of add-on's.

LTb1ow

03-23-2021, 07:41 AM

If you can add on, I would grab a map sensor to install it on your vac tank. No need for adding guages and you utilize the setup you already have

https://lowdoller-motorsports.com/collections/pressure-sensors/products/14-7-psi-to-14-7-psi-5v-crankcase-pressure-sensor

IROCZman15

03-23-2021, 07:26 PM

yea, thats is a great idea. Glad you mentioned it. I'm not sure, so i am going to check with some of the guys on the Holley EFI forums to see if the sniper can handle this. Would be AWESOME to view the tank's vacuum in real time and to datalog the values and see more info on the logs.

IROCZman15

03-24-2021, 05:57 PM

bummer, the Sniper I have is not capable of adding a 5V reference input like what we are discussing. I was told the Holley Super Sniper, Holley X-Flow, and Dominator stuff surely does but I am certainly not financially able to go swapping to a different EFI system this year. For now I might just put that $15 gauge under there and pop my head under the fender at idle and after some revvs. I'll try the GoPro thing, but it will probably shake around to much. if I REALLY need to know, I will consider putting a gauge pod in the car. Might wait until I hook up the nitrous system, because then perhaps I can get creative with a subtle multi-gauge cluster.

Oh well, the can does seem to be working real good. I'll be taking the car to work tomorrow and a drive after. Planning on going to Island Dragway for opening day April 3rd.

The_Bishop

03-28-2021, 07:28 AM

Did you install the pump as well, or just the reservoir?

IROCZman15

03-28-2021, 10:38 AM

No, just the reservoir. I wanted to see how much of an improvement I have gained with just the tank. If unsatisfied, I can always add the vacuum pump to the system. This I would prefer, as it would cleanup some hoses at the back of the sniper TBI and intake manifold. I would also then have consistent, reliable vacuum, and that vac system (electric vac pump paired with the canister) would be exclusively for the power brake booster only. However, it is just the tank for now and there has been a good improvement. The true test will come from dragstrip and autocross sessions. Thoughts?

The_Bishop

03-29-2021, 05:27 PM

You could always use that tank/pump combo to run all the vacuum stuff so that you have a strong reliable vacuum signal to run your interior stuff, and the hoses could be hidden nicely in the fender minimizing engine compartment clutter.

IROCZman15

03-29-2021, 07:41 PM

yea, but I have no interior vacuum based stuff. My hvac system went into a landfill about 16 years ago and I gladly never looked back. What else would you be speaking of?

Unrelated: I am really hoping Island is open this Saturday, I know it stated so on their website but they really haven't been updating stuff online much recently ( I know, new baby, legal issues, covid, etc), but are they making us buy admission tickets online the night before the T&T? Do we have to fill out a NHRA covid waiver?

The_Bishop

03-30-2021, 12:55 PM

Didn't know you tossed all the HVAC stuff, so I guess that doesn't matter. Whoops.

IROCZman15

03-30-2021, 07:40 PM

nah, no worries, I got rid of that stuff so long ago and am glad I did. many reasons for getting rid of it, and only one single reason for keeping it (defog windshield in the rain). Tossed it out and never regretted it.

Anyways, I plan on going to the track for opening day, this Saturday April 3rd. I am going to prep the car on Friday. check/clean spark plugs, pull out front pass seat, swap to the drag wheels, pack tools, fuel up, check tune file, etc. Hoping to run the 11.49 so I can justify putting in the roll bar.

The_Bishop

03-31-2021, 07:39 AM

After many, many years of driving stripped down cars I now couldn't imagine not having AC. Was one of the first things I got running 100% in my '98!

IROCZman15

04-06-2021, 06:35 PM

Ok, here it goes, been busy every day since Saturday, but finally got the bulk of my post-race day checklist taken care of.

I did go over to Island Dragway for Opening Day which was a daytime Test and Tune event. The weather was chilly, but not too cold. I overheard that Atco did not open today because it was too cold, but I am damn glad that island was open because I had packed and prepped the day before along with buying a ticket and the Covid waiver form the night before also.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51098336990_559cf1d6a9_c.jpg

Decent turnout of cars. DA was great all day, but there was noticeable wind throughout the day. Gates opened at 10, and racing was 11-4pm. There were at least 4 big oil downs so the track was dead for a bit occasionally. One oil down happened literally the pass before my last pass in my lane, but that one was in the shutdown area, still a long time to cleanup.

The car did good, but not great. I was (and still am) expecting more from the 3.91 gear swap, but I have to figure out what I am doing incorrectly which is not optimizing the gear swap. I basically ran the same type of timeslips that I was running in September and October of last year. 60foot, 8th mile, 1/4 mile and mph was all about the same. Expected a quicker 60 foot for sure, and more mph but did not see it. I did get my best ever 60 foot, but it was only 0.01 second better than 2020. Also a very slight improvement in the ¼ mile with a 11.805 at 116.13 mph compared to my previous best of 11.82 at 115.96. So I am indeed confused as to what needs to be optimized. I know I somehow have to hit the launch harder (without a Transbrake) and I am nailing my shift points…so feel free to chime in as to why/how the gear swap isn’t showing track results yet. On the street, the car pulls noticeably harder in all gears. The gear swap is great on the street, but I did not feel it at the track, and the timeslips verified my seat-of-the-pants opinion also. The converter is flashing higher now with these gears and I am coming through the finish line right at peak HP instead of below it like I had previously been. See my engine dyno sheet on page 1 of this whole thread. Peak tq is at 4,800 and peak hp is at 6,000 rpms.

I made no changes to tire pressure or shocks or suspension all day
- Tire pressure front 37psi on the skinnies 19psi rear on the MT drag radials
- Front struts were left on 1/5 so that’s loose and rear shocks were at a 2/5 slightly loose

Pass 1: 4.5 second mid rpm burnout. Launched at 1,211 rpms via the 2-step. The converter flashed at 3,171 rpm. Shifted 1st-to-2nd at at 6,557 and hit the limiter for a split second., and it dropped to 4,898 rpm in 2nd gear. Shifted 2nd-to-3rd at 6,503 and it dropped to 4,871. Crossed the finish line around 6,198 rpm. 34.8 deg timing at WOT with a 12.7 target AFR.

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFE1ON2GPts

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097534011_90826c936b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51102967865_fbf3950084_c.jpg

Pass 2: Used the exact same tune file. 6 second burnout at mid rpms. Launched at 1,752 rpm via using the footbrake. Converter flashed at 3,127 rpm. Shifted 1st-to-2nd at 6,504 and it dropped to 4,762. Shifted 2nd-to-3rd at 6,501 and it dropped to 4,907 rpm. Crossed the finish line at 6,223 rpm. Timing was 34.8 and a target afr of 12.7

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUqr7kcrRkQ

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097631647_583a33e7fa_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099765139_d7ab6821de_c.jpg

Pass 3: Some slight changes in the tune, I raised the rev limiter and added 0.3 deg of timing. I also applied the learn data to the VE table and it took out a good amount of fuel on the wot part of the table. I was hesitant to do this. Did a 7 second burnout at mid-high rpms. Wanted to try launching off the 2-step at a higher rpm to see what the brakes could hold. Launched at 1,821 with my foot full on the throttle while on the 2 step. Car began to roll through the brakes so I just let it leave. The converter flashed at 3,072rpm, but about 1.5 seconds into the run the engine went soft and I got out of the throttle. Aborted the run but nothing seemed awry on my gauges so I coasted the rest of the pass and looked over the data. Saw a huge lean spike in the datalog and thankfully my 100% open CL comp limits saved my motor from going way lean on me. CL comp went up to almost 90% with adding fuel to correct the lean condition and I am very thankful for that. Still unsure what caused this.. I do need to dig deeper into the datalog, but I wanted to post stuff here first to see if anyone had any ideas. ??

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSljvt9PaAQ

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097534001_31c7c1d38b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51098338540_0e3d3f414a_c.jpg

Pass 4: used a different version of the tune from the beginning of the day. 5.5 second mid-rpm burnout. Launched at a 920 idle from the footbrake. Converter flashed at 2,995 rpms. Shifted 1st-to-2nd at 6,573 rpms and it dropped to 4,790. Shifted 2nd-to-3rd at 6,513 rpms and is landed at 4,871 rpms. Crossed the line at 6,172 rpms and timing was at 35.1 deg and a 12.7 target afr.

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH9buNy6DPc

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097534006_ed1b59a0b9_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51098338530_533a644e24_c.jpg

Pass 5: Only changed the timing back down to target 34.8 at wot and raised the target afr from 12.7 to 12.8 at wot. Did a 7 second burnout at 3,500 rpm. Launched the car at 2,142 rpms on the footbrake. I did not expect it to hold at this high rpm, but it seemed to! Converter flashed at 3,075 rpm. Shifted 1st-to-2nd at 66,58 and it dropped to 4,916 rpm in 2nd gear. Shifted 2nd-to-3rd at 6,551 and it dropped to 4,927 rpms. Crossed the line at 6,311 rpms.

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5M338pm-iM

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097631652_e6166c707b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51097615369_87f4393f04_c.jpg

.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099741842_8713bc379c_c.jpg

Loaded up the car with all my tools, gear, and hit the road home. Drove home with no problems. It was a good day. A good shakedown day after 5 months of no dragstrip passes. Nothing went wrong, just I did not get any timeslips with a 1.5x sixty and an 11.5x e.t., so I have some work to do to hit my goal before venturing into the nitrous realm. I did notice on a few passes that my oil pressure is above what the dash gauge reads. gauge reads to 80 psi and sometimes at WOT the oil pressure is above it, probably like 90. it settles right back down afterwards. this only happened at the end of last year, and everything has been fine. remember my posts about this and my oil analysis and pressure testing with an extra pressure gauge? its still doin it. ??

I am wondering if I need to tighten up the rear suspension a tad. On the return road I heard some suspension parts scuffing, and unless it’s the torque arm hitting the tunnel from my adjustments this winter, I might have the suspension too soft? Maybe the car is squatting too much on the launch? Its hard to tell from just one of Jan’s photos, what I really need is a video. The photo could be taken halfway through the launch’s squat, or at max squat, who knows.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51098104288_6f70429315_c.jpg

Feel free to comment, suggest stuff, or whatever. Videos, datalogs, photos, are all provided to helm out. Thanks!

LTb1ow

04-06-2021, 06:55 PM

I still think that RPM drop on shifts is killing your time.

IROCZman15

04-06-2021, 08:45 PM

yea man, I fully agree with ya on that. Ain't nothing I can do to change that. Certainly not going to be opening up the transmission and changing its gearing. car and gearing is now fantastic when driving on the street and i can tell its going to be better for autoX too. Trans is happy and healthy so its staying as is. Converter is also staying the same since a tight converter like this one will be very happy with the nitrous system install this summer/fall.

I gotta dig in and find whats not optimized to let these gears launch the car harder.

wretched73

04-07-2021, 06:39 AM

Raise your rev limiter so you stop hitting it. Raise the RPMs you shift at

IROCZman15

04-07-2021, 01:21 PM

I raised the rev limiter after the first pass which is the only time I hit the rev limiter. I also was trying to shift at 6,500 after lots of discussion on multiple forums where I posted data and timeslips and other info with the goal of figuring out the best shift points. I had a whole separate thread about this. So what do you suggest I shift at ? And why? I like to hear reasons instead of just blindly doing suggestions. Engine builder said to shift at 6,200 and put the main rev limiter at 6,500. So, I’m already a few hundred rpms beyond his advice.

wretched73

04-07-2021, 01:27 PM

Shift higher to keep you in the power band better on the next gear. You won't know if it works until you try it.

sweetbmxrider

04-07-2021, 02:13 PM

What rockers are on it?

wretched73

04-07-2021, 02:49 PM

What rockers are on it?

Page 1 has build sheet, shows Crane Energizer rockers-

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/rocker-arms/product-line/crane-energizer-roller-rocker-arms

Cam-
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-12-460-8

LTb1ow

04-07-2021, 05:18 PM

sweetbmxrider

04-07-2021, 05:47 PM

Yeah was wondering if they were nsa. If valve train can handle the revs, give it some more!

IROCZman15

04-07-2021, 07:49 PM

nitrous is coming this year, probably in the summer, maybe right after I do the UMI autocross event. I have most of what I need to get it setup for the 100-150 shot. I have the solenoids, bottle, buttons, and some braided lines. Just need to find a single stage intake spray plate that I like, get some fittings, and get creative with a slick way to mount the solenoids. I have been holding off on the nitrous until I hit my personal goal for the car, which is 11.499. I renewed my nitrous permit with NJ this Feburary, so nitrous is indeed coming.

I can give it another 100-200 rpms on the shifts too at the next test and tune. Was hoping the gears would bring a quicker 60 foot, anything in the 1.55 range would be awesome.

Adam, do you mean nsa or N/a ? if you mean N/a, then yes, they were. if nsa, well I don't know what that means.

also, yup, thats the cam specs and valvetrain stuff. as mentioned, specs are on page 1 of this thread in the build sheet. so some of that stuff is beyond my knowledge, which is why I ask for advice from those who do know. thanks, keep it coming!

I am hoping to maybe get out to island next Friday night for a TnT event. If there is anything I can/should do in the meantime, I gotta get a gameplan going! If I do hit the 11.49 I am getting the roll bar setup. I emailed the fabricator and he is still on board to get the project done according to my specs.

Anti_Rice_Guy

04-08-2021, 08:28 AM

Non self-aligning vs. self aligning refers to the valvetrain.

LTb1ow

04-08-2021, 06:49 PM

You are gonna need to get it on slicks and leave at as much RPM as the 2step can get you without pushing forward if you want to cut a sub 1.5

What made you pick the current 2step rpm?

IROCZman15

04-08-2021, 08:50 PM

thanks nick. I actually do not know if the rockers/valvetrain is self aligning or not? never looked into it

I picked the 2-step rpm based on where I could get the car to hold the foot brake at last year prior to it rolling through the staging beams. This was the whole discussion about vacuum pumps, tanks, launching from an idle vs high idle vs anything higher. Lots of discussion about this last year on here and on other car forums. If I am in 1st gear and rev over 1800-2,000 the footbrake can't hold the car back. It rolls the beams, so I then just take the red light and make a pass. I played around with this for dozens and dozens of passes last year. And I was foot braking while revving to try to hold a set rpm while watching the tree count down, and I thought a 2-step rev limiter would allow me to just floor the throttle while on the rev limiter so i didn't have to try to watch the tach hold 1,800 while watching the tree. that was my thought process. what can I change? I mean, I can set the 2-step to freaking 6,000 if I wanted to, but its just going to roll through the brakes at 2,000 rpms like usual. (no to a transbrake)

sweetbmxrider

04-09-2021, 03:48 AM

They are nsa, it says on the site.

IROCZman15

04-16-2021, 07:53 PM

Island dragway got rained out tonight, understandable. I was half packed and checked the phone message to find out it as canceled.

heading to the car show portion of the Swap meet at Englishtown tomorrow. Then i'll come home, and transform the car over to drag race mode, and head over to Island Dragway for Sunday test and tune. Hope all goes well. If anyone else is heading to either racetrack, keep an eye out for me and say hi.

IROCZman15

04-22-2021, 08:28 PM

I know, I know, nobody reads this junk anyways.. but it is a good way for me to keep all my stuff in one place to look back at and on the oddball chance that people can help out with what I am experimenting with, I still decide to post the details of my adventures.

Did get to Englishtown for the Swap-Meet/Car-Show event on Saturday. Rained when I was leaving, but that wasn't a problem. The crazy maniacs on the parkway and roads were insane. Even at 9 am on a Saturday, the trip was treacherous; those drivers scare me.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51130654588_6fcf9703b8_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131552080_2a0ec4962a_c.jpg

Had a good time at the show, met a ton of cool people and spent most of the day chatting tech with people. It was strange to see a boat dry-docked on the grass by where the 1000' cone used to be at the dragstrip. I walked through a portion of the swap meet and chatted with a fellow O.G. njfboa member but I didn't spend too much time browsing for parts.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51130998224_41d3bddd04_c.jpg

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Ended up very confused/surprised when they called my name for Top 5 of the whole show. I was hoping for mayyyybe top 25, but did not expect a Top 5 award. Pretty cool, they took my photo by the back wall and put it up on their website. The blue hot rod won best of show.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131025854_045ea9c713_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51130668363_6ed401df82_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51126429764_ea1fa5ce70_c.jpg

Drove the car home and pulled off the wheels, removed the passenger seat, sound system, nitrous, so that I could pack my usual supply of tools, parts, and equipment for tomorrows dragstrip day.

IROCZman15

04-22-2021, 09:05 PM

As for my birthday day at the dragstrip, well, I wish it could have gone better. I got there early like I always do and a handful of people I know were there also. My buddy John and his silver Trans Am came also, and he usually runs 11.1-11.2 range at 126 mph. He knew his clutch was on its last day, so he was easy with the car at first. I think he ran a best mph of 128 and his best 60 foot was 1.48 but I forget if he ran a best e.t. timeslip. He runs a 436 sbc N/A setup but with a 6 speed out of a dodge viper.

Anyways, the suspension stayed the same all day: front struts at 0.5 out of 5, and rear shocks were at 2.5 out of 5. Front skinnies were at 37 psi all day and the rear drag radials at 19 and 19.5 psi. Used 93 octane shell pump gas for pass 1&2, but added 1/2 can of VP Octanium (lead free) for pass 3&4. So my WOT timing for pass 1&2 was 35.0 deg and for pass 3&4 I raised the timing to 37 deg. The weather was ok, but the DA was about 1,000 all day. As was the case last time, there were a LOT of oil downs, cleanups, people who walked away from their cars in the staging lanes and backlogged the whole flow, and in general the track just moved very slow. Sadly, I only got 4 passes.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51130455566_9bbd46fdf5_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131026849_f936bf61b0_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131719557_bf8134f7b3_c.jpg

Pass 1:

Did a 5 second mid rpm burnout. I tried a 1,800 rpm 2-step launch and left at 1,849 rpm. I had done some street tuning of the 2-step to try to get the fuel table dialed in for a 2-step launch. The brakes held, but the car bogged but only a little bit. AFR went lean 19.7 and then rich 9.6. Once it recovered, the rest of the run was pretty good. As we discussed in some previous posts, I raised the rev limiter and shifted a bit higher than normal. Shifted 1-2 at 6,648 and it dropped to 4,838 in 2nd gear. Shifted 2-3 at 6,552 and it dropped to 4,868 rpm. Crossed the line right around 6,236 rpm. ET was slow, but my MPH was the fastest ever for me, at 116.59 mph.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g2Q6T_apwI

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131719562_32695fd505_c.jpg
something is wrong with their clock, but only before 12 noon. This pass was actually at 11:40 am but the rest of my timeslips are accurate regarding the time of day. This is also the case with my track day 2 weeks ago. Weird.

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131719577_015a9b6b7d_c.jpg
-you can see the wild pink AFR right at my launch, and the bump in the red rpm trace prior to the engine recovering and running normally.

Pass 2:
Used the exact same tune file. Did a 8 second burnout and decided to foot brake the launch since the last run's 2-step launch went poorly. Launched at 1,769 rpm and then the engine bogged pretty bad...almost felt like I lost the transmission. So i got out of the throttle right away. Got on the throttle a little bit while coasting down the track looking behind me to see if I needed to pull off to the side. With everything intact and no smoke, I drove down the track and back to the pits. Looked over a few things and the datalog and could only determine that I needed to change the tune file. No real info to be gained from the datalog (as far as I can see??) but I drove the pits a bit to see if 1st gear and trans felt good, and it did, so I got back in the lanes.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DarbKRbvFg (that chevelle went a 8.91 !)

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51132604313_fd1f620406_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51133170309_341c070d07_c.jpg

Pass 3: Put in a fresh tune and one that I had made for the VP Octanium octane booster. Supposedly, it is an actual non-gimmick octane booster that raises octane by several numbers, not by points of a number. I put in half a can and put my WOT timing table to 37 deg. I would like yo do more research on this topic, but feel free to comment. Did a 5 second burnout. Footbraked the launch at 1,840 rpm which is right around the brake systems limit. Since I had just experienced two bogged launches I was expecting a 3rd so I was hesitant to go full WOT. You can see the upper green TPS line in the datalog, I did not get to wide open throttle until i got into 3rd gear. However I did shift 1-2 at 6,433 and it dropped to 4,713 rpm, and shifted 2-3 at 6,604 and it dropped to 4,825. Crossed the line around 6,082 rpm.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmhvxZ7t0T4

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51131719572_9258340d3d_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51132604333_cbe89187c6_c.jpg

Pass 4:
A bit frustrated, i just wanted a good clean full throttle pass knowing that the track day was ending and there were just so many track cleanups I was not going to get the 6 passes I had hoped for. Used the same exact tune file as pass 3, including the 37 deg of timing with the VP octane booster. Did a 6 second burnout and footbraked the launch at 1,450 rpm. Car hooked to a normal 1.67 sixty foot and the converter flashed around 2,720 (little lower than usual now). Shifted 1-2 a bit higher than I ever had at 6,763 and it dropped to 4,868 rpm...it actually tagged my new 6,800 rpm rev-limiter just a bit too. Shifted 2-3 at 6,605 and it dropped to 4,861. Went through the finish line around 6,203 rpm. Finally a good pass and with higher rpm shift points. Disappointed that it only resulted in a 12.005 at 114.09 mph.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Lb3GX_JTY
-If I had run my normal 11.80-11.85 I would have had a real cool side-by-side pass with that 2nd gen camaro! Even though I went 0.022 red, it would have been real cool side-by-side action. I actually started gaining a little back in the last few hundred feet.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51133505350_9b4fb37197_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51132604328_ba93f7d847_c.jpg

Log book:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51133505345_7fde93bdc0_c.jpg

Sidenote: I put the Go Pro on the drivers side to see how much the rear end is squatting on the launch. I tried it on the passenger side, but it fell off in the staging lanes 3 times when the car was just sitting there doing nothing. I'll get it to stick better next time, but in each above video is some footage of the rear squat.. This photo would have been from pass #1 or 2 when I was in the left lane:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51132400051_4b78b6e417_c.jpg

Anyways. That's that. I hope to go back in early May for a Friday night TnT. An 11.7x at 117 mph would really thrill me . I also plan on moving ahead with the 6-point roll bar project in late May.

sweetbmxrider

04-23-2021, 03:49 AM

Always enjoy the updates, Dave.

LTb1ow

04-23-2021, 05:43 AM

For what its worth, in termy x world, you can't tune the 2 step, its a modifier that turns off the learning for the main fuel table when activated. Unless you make a custom table for two step, but I do not think thats what you are doing?

Looks like your converter likes to foot brake leave, you cut your best short times doing that. Now you just gotta get it to move better mid track. 8-)

I would stop playing with WOT timing, find what it likes by reading plugs at end of track, or seeing where it stops gaining MPH. Then leave it. (Granted I am coming from a boosted mindset, so idk if NA guys chase timing based on weather?)

Either way, cool to read the updates :nod:

wretched73

04-23-2021, 12:42 PM

I'm glad you tried upping your shift point, too bad about those lean spikes. Any ideas on what could be causing it?

IROCZman15

04-23-2021, 08:37 PM

Matt you are correct, I do not have the capability to make a separate 2-step table. What I have been trying to do is make a set "drag race' tune file that has the best VE table and timing table values in the area of cells where the 2-step comes off and closed loop comes in. Since this area of rpm/load will only be hit once during a full 1/4 mile pass, people have suggested I spend time tuning that area to eliminate the bog/spikes. It has been suggested that I do some street tuning using the 2-step on a steep upward hill or while holding the brakes during a launch. I did try this and thought I had it close, but apparently not. Oh well, something to revisit later on. I am fine with footbraking, and the free-rev I give the engine while in neutral while pulling to the starting line is helping build vacuum in the vac can and I am happy about that at the launch while footbraking.

As for WOT timing, I might try one more experiment with it, and this time I might actually lower it from 35 deg to 34 deg or 33.5. I have not played around with those numbers yet and some of my SBC buddies with similar setups run 33 and 34 deg timing. Maybe I have been over timing it just a tad; enough to knock off some power, but not enough to knock and cause noticeable detonation. Maybe I can get to the track next friday night for T&T.

As for the shift points, yup, I did give it a shot. A few of the shifts I nailed, right at 6,604 rpm and 6,605 rpms. I had another thread on this site listing my best runs and tech info, but here is the current sheet. I am liking the 116.59 mph, but thats weird because thats the first run where the engine bogged off the 2-step and then got going again, so it wasn't even a full pass.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51135099519_f46271e3b0_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51135435190_8d74e1c9e4_c.jpg

As for hte lean spikes, as far as I can tell it is the computer coming out of a 2-step open loop table and then going closed loop with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, causing the oxygen sensor readings to get wonky. At least thats how I understand it. So, in theory, if I made a pass only in open loop, this would not happen. But then I run the risk of my CL comp and fueling being too far lean/rich if my base table is off... so I am hesitant to do that and make a mistake.

Blackbirdws6

04-24-2021, 06:38 AM

Congrats on the trophy. Well deserved. Happy birthday as well and nice to see you made it out to the track. I think it's time to engage the nitrous!

IROCZman15

04-24-2021, 07:12 PM

Thanks man!
nitrous setup is coming late summer.
After another month timeframe of drag racing (and upcoming roll-bar install) I want to get the new tires on the car (the new falken Azeni RT 660) so I can get the car back autocrossing a bit before the UMI autocross event in July. I also have a few car shows I kinda want to get to, so I might switch back to autocross/car show mode for a bit. After the UMI event, if my budget is there, the nitrous system will get done. I have most of the stuff, just need a nice plate, and fuel lines with fittings, as well as a fuel pressure safety switch, and to fill the bottle. I plan on using my same solenoids from the TPI kit which flow up to a 150 shot I think. Since the roll bar will be installed, I won't have to worry about getting kicked out for running in the high 10's (hopefully). So potentially, this upcoming Friday night TnT at island might be the last drag race event for a little bit.

IROCZman15

05-01-2021, 08:54 PM

The adventure twists and turns! This one is not fun to type, but it is part of the reality and the journey.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51152253439_bd5c3e03ec_c.jpg

So I planned on going to Island on Friday night for Test and Tune; had the car setup with the drag wheels on and loaded with gear but was watching the weather because there was intermittent and but high winds during the day. Turns out that Island canceled TnT Friday night, and that made sense because the weather was indeed lousy. So my weekend plans changed and I decided I would go to a car show with some buddies in Sparta. Just had to switch the wheels and unload the gear and put the sound system and passenger seat in. Since that was easy, I decided that I would finally tackle a small task that I had wanted to do this winter:

I have not been a fan of the Holley Coolant Temp Sensor being mounted front-and-center in the top of the intake manifold. To me it is unsightly and also, it reads the temp of the coolant just before it exists the engine/thermostat. Figured it would be more helpful to know the coolant temp in the cylinder head instead. So, the holley sensor is hard wired to the sniper unit, but MANY people relocate it by simply cutting the wire open and splicing in wires to extend it. Simple. Easy. No sweat at all. In doing so, I had to drain some Evans Coolant out,and I guess more spilled than I planned on. I was able to save some, but not much..

see the location of the sensor, like a weird totem-pole; no thanks
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49899561753_45848f2956_c.jpg

sensor moved, but pipe plug not installed during this photo, because this is where I added the remaining coolant into the engine. I put in two new and matching pipe plugs on each side of the thermostat housing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51152571880_a7c3105801_c.jpg

So I moved the sensor after extending the wires. Easy. Fired up the car and was adding back the salvaged Evans coolant, as well as 1/2 gallon of Evans that I had remaining on my shelf. Sadly it was not enough to get everything filled, but I fired up the engine anyways and left it get up to temp. Temp climbed pretty quick and I knew the sensor was going to read higher, but it got real hot real quick, rocketing up to 230 and I shut it off. Its 8:30pm now on Friday night, and no local sores carry Evans. I also notice that the pesky SLOW and minimal drip that I have noticed under the car during the past few months is back, and is now steadily dripping coolant. My heart sinks, as I realize that I have made the slow leak now become worse.

Woke up early and drove my truck over to Power Portal Automotive in Hackettstown where they sell Evans. Got there 8am before anyone who works there arrived and bought 2 gallons. Drove home expecting to be able to put the coolant in, burp the system and see how bad the leak is....and if its not bad I was going to drive up to the car show in Sparta. Turns out the leak is even worse than last night, so I bag the car show idea, pull the car back in the garage, start cleaning up the the mess in the driveway and figuring out where the leak at the back of the engine is coming from. Soon I realize that it is fortunately NOT a head gasket...but its the back of the intake manifold. It is not going to fix itself, so I start digging in and disassembling everything. My thoughts were confirmed that the intake manifold gasket much have been very slightly breached before, and the events of Friday night probably opened the gasket's hole up even more. It is at the back of the engine, on top of cylinder 7. FYI, I know that I committed the cardinal sin of intake manifold removal when I used a screwdriver to separate it from the heads. As I was doing it, I knew I should not be doing it, but I was just so damn frustrated at that point in time). I will shave the divots and make sure the new gaskets seal nicely.

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Very thankful it is not a head gasket. Just to be sure, I checked and torqued the head bolts that I could reach with the valve cover off, and along the bottom rail.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51152253339_d43b7ba5a5_c.jpg

So, I gotta get gaskets for my Edelbrock Victor Jr. manifold. From my research it looks like Edelbrock #7201 or Fel-Pro 1206 or Fel-Pro 1205 gaskets. I plan on using a bead of black RTV on the front and rear china walls. Right? or what else?

The cooling passage dead ends here at the intake manifold. it does not cross flow, Anything you suggest I do to prevent this from happening again? Evans coolant runs at a very low pressure but I don't want to have to deal with this again.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51151700548_c482e2a3ac_c.jpg

Torque to 25 foot pounds in the proper order/sequence.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51152636090_51151dd7d0_c.jpg

While I am in here, I am going to re-do some wiring and tighten things up to be even cleaner. I MIGHT take the time to drill and tap a hole in the actual manifold to thread in a NPT fitting that will allow me to run my PCV vacuum hose to this port, instead of the very tiny vac port of the sniper unit. Thoughts? I've seen it done before, and it will clean up my vacuum hoses at the back of the engine. Perhaps it can even be capped later if I do get an electric vacuum pump, OR I can run a semi-permanent vacuum gauge to this port if needed. Thoughts on sizes or if this could be a problem? I do know its common to do.

I am also going to relocate the huge oil pressure sender unit because I have never liked where it has been located near the firewall. Its bulky and in the way of wiring and will be in the way of how I route my nitrous lines/solenoids later on. So I want to move it to the oil pressure port that is directly above the oil filter on this Dart SHP block. This is the same port that I have used to check/verify my high oil pressure issues in the past. The tester gauge has always read exactly the same as my dashboard gauge, so I know that if I move the sender to this blocks lower port, it will read correctly. Any thoughts or advice before I do this?

So yea, exciting, but unplanned. The leak was not going to get better on its own, so its better it happened here in my driveway instead of when I was possibly real far from home out at an event.

Blackbirdws6

05-02-2021, 03:14 AM

Oh the joys of a project car haha. Fresh gaskets and nice bead of rtv should do the job. Things like this just happen so I wouldn't get overly concerned.

As for the vacuum port, nothing wrong with doing what you proposed. 3/8" or 6an will be fine if using it to pull through a catch can with check valve.

The port above the oil filter will also work just fine for oil pressure reading.

IROCZman15

05-02-2021, 08:25 PM

haha yup. quite a curveball that spiraled a bit further than I expected too!

Did not have time today to work on the car, but did learn that Advanced AutoParts in Rockaway had 1 set of the intake manifold gaskets, so I went there this morning and picked them up along with the Permatex Right-Stuff gasket maker, and two different sized brass NPT fittings.

Possibly after work tomorrow I will get everything cleaned up and maybe get some parts reinstalled. I am happy about relocating the oil pressure sender, it clears up a lot of room back by the firewall. I was always unhappy about where it was since I put it in last winter.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51152868238_c9a775e905_c.jpg

I am not fully sure if I do want to drill and tap the manifold just yet. Not only do I not really need to at this moment, but if I go with the electric vacuum pump for the brake booster, I will then be making the large vac port on the back of the sniper available to be used by the pcv, which now is just going to the very small ports on the sniper baseplate. So, if I were to put the NPT pipe fitting barb into the manifold, I would then be capping it off fairly soon as it would be unused...unless I did ever decide to put a vacuum gauge somewhere inconspicuous in the cabin...then I would run the vac gauge to this npt port. Not really a fan of that idea, but maybe, maybe in the future I will revisit it. Also, on these victor junior manifolds, there really isn't a nice flat spot to drill and tap into, every surface has an angle, see photo of where my "best" spot would be, and if you look across from it, you can see the inside of the plenum area is a triangle shape. Also I do not currently have a NPT tap and die set. Lastly, I do not know where I want to mount the nitrous solenoids, lines, and how I want to position the spray plate. It would stink if I mounted this vacuum fitting and then it became in-the-way of the nitrous equipment. So, I might skip this whole vac port idea for the moment, but keep the fittings here on my parts shelf.

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Anyways. I think thats it for now. I checked the oil a LOT of times during this, but I guess I should do an oil change anyways. Damn, this oil only had about 400 miles on it.

LTb1ow

05-03-2021, 06:36 AM

If you fit it, I would personally run a aluminum carb spacer and thread & tap your vac fitting into that.

IROCZman15

05-03-2021, 08:08 PM

Certainly a good idea. I had thought of that in spring of last year when I was researching phenolic carb spacers. I got (and still run) a phenolic 4 hole 1/2" tall spacer to help solve the infamous "holley sniper whistle". I thought about putting a vacuum port into it then, but was concerned that the height was not enough. My other issue with it is, well, I know I will be putting a nitrous plate right in that spot where the current spacer is. I didn't want to have a real tall stack of spacers and nitrous spray plates, so I withheld from doing so.

Small update, after work today I had two hours free, so i got everything as clean as I could and got the intake manifold set back onto the engine. snugged al the bolts down, and then torqued them to the proper spec in the order that is illustrated a few posts above. I used the permatex 90-minute ready "right Stuff" sealant on the Edelbrock 7201 gaskets. Letting everything sit overnight and tomorrow after work I hope to get the sniper back on, fuel lines, vac lines, and coolant in the system. I also have to reinstall the hyperspark distributor, phase it, set inductive delay, and whatnot. Going to top off the Evans coolant, recheck the torque on the bolts, change the spark plugs, hookup the throttle cable, TV cable, and tI have some wiring to clean-up and make even less visible than before. After that, I want to run the engine for a few minutes, and then drain the oil and change the filter. Does this sound like an o.k. plan, or am I missing something important?

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Blackbirdws6

05-03-2021, 08:56 PM

You got it covered. Press on!

IROCZman15

05-05-2021, 08:26 PM

thanks man!

Got everything installed, checked, and double checked this afternoon. Put in new spark plugs and the distributor timing was set to match the hyperspark and all that needed to be done also. Got it up to temp and checked timing and static-timing. Also, no leaks of anything, so I am happy about that. Took some time to redo some of the wiring that got moved around during the disassembly. Things at the back of the firewall are much neater, and I am happy about that. Oil pressure if great (still high, but that's been discussed on and off for many months now) and the relocated oil pressure sender makes me happy. All in all, successful project, and it would have needed to be taken care of sooner or later because that coolant leak could have started dumping coolant into the engine without me knowing, so I am glad that this was tackled now. It was too rainy here to do a test drive, but I will do it tomorrow. Did a datalog while the engine warmed up and fiddling with the timing stuff. Will also change the oil and filter tomorrow, and hopefully if the test drive is good, will get the car setup for drag racing Test and Tune this Friday night at Island Dragway.

Recap with question: Just this past week I relocated my Holley Sniper's coolant temperature sensor. It used to be right in the intake manifold next to the thermostat housing and was very unsightly. I cut the wire and extended it, allowing the CTS to now be mounted in the coolant port that is on the passenger cylinder head between cylinder 6 and 8. I then put a pipe-plug at the hole in the manifold and I am very happy with the look.

I expected to read higher coolant temps, but now that I am visually seeing the higher temp numbers on my sniper's display, I am getting curious. Typically I was used to seeing 178-185 at the sensor when it was at the top of the intake by the thermostat. Now I am seeing 225-235. I used my temp gun to check the block, heads, manifold, and the temp gun confirms my 230 reading at the head, as well as the 175 number that is still at the pipe plug area at the intake manifold.

So, in short, the engine is running exactly the same, but I am wondering if these higher CTS values are now something I need to consider during changes to my tune files. What do I need to change immediately, and what should I keep an eye on and adjust later????

wretched73

05-06-2021, 07:07 AM

I say don't let those numbers trouble you. As you said, you expected them. Good luck at T&T, looking forward to a new PB

Blackbirdws6

05-06-2021, 07:47 AM

You'd have to take a look at your tune to see what spark and fueling is doing at those higher temp readings to know if there will be a difference in performance. Have fun at the track.

thehazguy

05-06-2021, 07:04 PM

See you tomorrow night at Island. I'll have the 57 there.

IROCZman15

05-08-2021, 02:31 PM

Great hanging out with you Jerry. You have an incredible wealth of knowledge and experience, so I hope to get to see ya more often. Jerry went runner-up in the gamblers race last night!

I might edit and add stuff to this post later on, but I'll try to get most of it out here now. First thing first, the intake manifold gasket repair held up just fine, no leaks, no loosened bolts, all good. Radiator still has a very slow drip, but Champion is waiting on a hopeful order/shipment from china to ship me out a new one under their lifetime warranty. I'll keep waiting. But the intake is good.

Got 8 runs in. most were garbage due to an issue I am very eager to resolve. Something is happening in Closed loop in ONLY first gear where the CL comp is adding a tremendous amount of fuel and causing the engine to stumble. Pass #2 was good and did not stumble, and after the 6th pass, I said to hell with it and trusted that my base tune was good enough for me to turn off closed loop fuel compensation and just run an open loop (base fuel table) pass. I was still hesitant and expecting it to bog so I was not at full WOT in first gear, but when it took it and didn't misfire, I went WOT and ran a full pass. It actually hit so hard it slightly spun the tires at the launch. Hot lapped it and did the same exact thing just to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and it did the exact same pass, but it spun the tires even more at the launch. So, good news, the base table is great (a little rich) but that means the closed loop compensation is way screwed up and only in first gear. - Details below

** also below, I might be considering getting an inexpensive set of front 90/10 drag struts to bolt on if I am going to be doing a drag race event. Unless I am missing something, Its only two bottom bolts, a top nut, and a brake line bracket to remove the strut. Something I can swap in 15 minutes while putting the drag wheels on or off. Reason I am considering this, is because if I am spinning the tires now at NA power on the open loop launch, there is no way a koni yellow strut will transfer the weight properly to the back on a nitrous launch. Even on the softest and loosest koni strut setting, you have to use 2 hands and your whole body to try to lift the front of the car up at all. With a 90/10 I've seen guys be able to bounce the car like a toy. So I am considering this, and would swap them off for street and autocross use of course.

Did not get any GoPro footage, didn't' have time to play around with it. Some of my dashcam videos are corrupt, so I only have recordings from 4 of the 8 passes, and I did not include any rear-camera video footage. Also, Did not remember to check the DA after the first 3 passes as I was so scatter-brained about what the heck was going on with the 1st gear fueling. The Da started around 800 and was pretty much down to 600 or so by the end of the night. It was humid and rain was expected. I kept the drag radials at 19.5 and 19 psi all night, and the shocks stayed at .05 out of 5 on the front koni struts, and 2.5 out of 5 on the rear koni shocks.

Pass 1: no video
4 second burnout. launch from idle at 878 rpm. converter flashed low at 2543 rpm and then the first bog/misfire of the night happened right around 3,000 rpm. see the jagged pink line in the graph, thats my actual AFR.The pink line should be super super close to the light blue line (target AFR). And the rising yellow line above it is CL comp, which is what the computer is adding to my base table to try to get the AFR to where my target (12.7:1) afr wants to be. CL comp added 56% !!!! before I got out of the throttle, pedaled it, and then revved 1st gear to 6,723, second gear to 6,524 and finished the run at 6,065. This "bog" in first gear has happened earlier this year at TnT . My buddy John was there with me and we looked at the tune file (GCF file) and can not make sense of why it would be adding THAT much fuel).

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Pass 2 : no video5 second burnout. footbrake launch at 1,661 and flashed at 2,668 rpm. No bog! Shifted 1st at 6,461 and dropped to 4,803 shifted 2 at 6,532 and dropped to 4,853 and crossed the finish line at 6,128 in 3rd great. An optimal pass. felt good. full pass, no blips, bobbles, or issues. The pink line is very close to the light blue line, AFR was good, nothing weird. the yellow CL comp line had very low single-digit fuel compensation numbers. I was happy, and the 11.94 at 114 seemed promising because thats where this car has been happy before.

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Pass 3: video with audio of the bog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNndIXpspk

A 6 second burnout, and footbrake launch right at 1,598 rpm. After the converter flashed at 3,050 the CL comp (yellow) camein hard and added an INCREDIBLE amount of fuel... actually up to 76% additional of my base table for a total of 391 lbs/hour of fuel at that point. I shifted during this while getting out of the throttle, pedaled it, and got back into it for the rest of the run, even shifting 2nd very early at 5,691. Getting frustrated after this run. John and I were looking at the base table and CL comp limits and parameters, Nothing is activated that we can see that should require this much fuel compensation to be coming in at these rpms in 1st gear. Even in 2nd and 3rd gear, the table doesnt use this much fuel at these rpms.

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Pass 4: video with audio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7hvy74ORNA

5 second burnout, launch at 1,769 and flash at 2,755 rpm. It actually spun the tires at the hit, you can see the car rotate sideways to the left as the tires are spinning just a touch. Yet, again, a "lean spike" and CL comp comes in hard, ramping up the fuel compensation into the 50%and60% value from my base table. I get off the throttle, back on it, shift and make another confused trot down the dragstrip. The yellow line should not be like that, no way, not at all.

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Pass 5: video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_u0wmqzATA

5.5 second burnout. launch at 1,530 flash at 2,602. stumble, misfire, "overfueling", pedal it, abandoned the run.

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Pass 6:
4 second burnout. 1,719 launch and I actually cant tell where the converter flashed on this log. same stumble, bog, CL comp way up, got out of it and abandoned the run.

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*** Please don't think that I was just continually running the same tune trying on hopes and dreams that it would resolve itself... I was adding in fuel to the base table in the areas that it was CL comp adding, in hopes that it would be sufficient.* BUT there was no way I was going to add 60% more fuel to those areas. that number does not make sense. Again, I wasn't that dumb to just keep on running the same exact tune. Adjustments were made to the closed loop tunes in between runs.*

.

Got very frustrated, and John and I decided that If I am comfortable with my KNOWN good base table numbers (from al the track stuff last year) I can just make an open loop pass and turn the Closed Loop fuel compensation off, as well as the learn data. So basically, just fueling the engine off of the base table and the base table alone.

Pass 7:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmRynW_u-kw

(OPEN LOOP) 4.5 second burnout. Footbraked a little low at 1,210 and because of the recent bad launches, my foot was hesitant to go full wot. the light green line on the Datalog shows I was at 80%-84% throttle for all of fist gear, BUT THERE WAS NO STUMBLE OR BOG. I must have been so stunned, that I shifted way early, at 5,530 rpm. I then went to 110% wide open throttle and shifted 2-3 at 5,691 rpm (way early) and finished the run at 6,115 rpm. I was ecstatic, surprised, and impressed. I noticed the AFR numbers were a tad rich while I was making the pass (12.3:1) but I had NO time to make a change, because they were closing the lanes in 2 minutes.

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Pass 8; (Open loop) Drove directly back into the staging lanes, and I think I was the very last car down the strip that night. launched at 1,862 rpm and a flash at 2,478 rpms. I was still hesitant to go FULL WOT in all of 1st gear and all of 2nd gear (green line). No bog in 1st gear at all. The base table is good, and open loop is good, no input from CL comp involved. Shifted 6,549 and 6,294 under about 87% throttle and then went WOT in 3rd gear.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51165207247_9147a23c09_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51166974265_ee666ee1e0_c.jpg

Hungout with John a little bit more (he has a 3rd gen silver TA that was racing with me 3 weeks ago. Needs a clutch replacement. His car runs 11.0 and 11.1x Goal is 10.9 next time out. Lives in woodbridge, very cool guy. Put the car back into a known good closed-loop tune and drove home.

TOTALLY CRAZY INSANE LEARN TABLE NUMBERS?!?!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51166655079_df8615bb7a_c.jpg

base table of the day:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51166107813_a5831bb551_c.jpg[

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51166974295_48155a518b_c.jpg

any ideas what in the heck is going on in first gear with that HUGE fuel compensation?

Also, thoughts on a set of 90/10 front struts for drag days?

TaKid455

05-09-2021, 09:30 AM

GO to basics. While it will be touch to see now since you drove it, what did the plugs look like? Is 1 cylinder spark/ fuel , ect, not happy? This kit only has 1 O2 sensor? If so switch it to the otherside. This will tell if 1 bank is acting up. You may not feel it.

Other idea, and its semi far out, is exhaust scavenging. You could be scavenging too much and pulling the incoming charge out of the chamber directly into the exhaust resulting in a lean condition. Thus why its is adding fuel.

Is your ECU setup to turn CL off after a given TPS % or is it CL all the time?

You said this was only in first gear?

PS .. this is what happens when you drive by w/o stopping to say Hi. You stay forever 12's.

The_Bishop

05-09-2021, 01:26 PM

That coolant temp sensor you swapped locations isn't just a display, right? It's part of the Sniper EFI? It's real possible that the 'tune' is now off due to it seeing much higher coolant/engine temperatures.

LTb1ow

05-09-2021, 02:09 PM

Sounds a lot like a dead or dying wideband sensor to me.

Hopefully you have learn function off right?

IROCZman15

05-09-2021, 07:18 PM

Thank you all for the replies and ideas. Any help is much appreciated.

Larry: yes just one O2 sensor for the holly sniper. Unfortunately my DynoDon's headers only have a bung for the O2 sensor on the drivers side. It is in a good spot, but it is unlikely I will be drilling and welding a bung to the other side. I plan to remove these headers in the winter for a set of bigger long tubes, so I don't want to modify a good set of headers that will soon be for sale. I did not check plugs that night at the track, and as you mentioned, I did drive home after so the plug readings would be skewed.
-the fuel charge scavenging theory is something I have never even thought of. I see what you are saying. That would be WILD if that were happening. Wouldn't it be more pronounced at higher rpms such as at the top of 2nd or 3rd gear though instead of such a short period of time mid-rpm in 1st gear?
- The ECU Closed Loop Parameters can be adjusted by me. They can be left on al the time, off all the time, or pretty much anything in between. there are options for if I want it to deactivate at a certain Throttle position, rpm, etc. However, on my first 6 passes, I simply left Closed Loop (and Learn) on because I feel safer that it will make the right adjustments and save the engine if something went awry in the base tune. AS it turns out, this is exactly the opposite of what happened, and the closed loop feature went wild adding fuel, but if it needed to do it for some unknown reason, it did the right thing. I just then need to find out "what" caused it to add fuel.
- And yes, this has only ever happened in 1st gear and only at the track. Not during street driving, heavy street driving, burnouts, or anywhere else. Only 1st gear at the track. Once during my early April track day, once during the April 18th track day, and then 5 times (out of the 6 closed loop passes) from this weekend. Bizarre
-Ah man, every single time I drive past the shop, I look to see if there is any activity in the parking lot and if So I would instantly take a detour and say hi. But I don't want to be that annoying fella who just stops by randomly and barges in, so usually I just drive past. I can stop by next time!

Bishop: yes, the coolant temp sensor that I relocated is not jsut for data display on the handheld. The sniper uses it for lots of tables. However, prior to heading to the track I went out and bought one of the highly recommended accurate Standard TX3 coolant temp sensors. I wanted my tables and tunes to be just as I have had them for the past 14 months. So I installed the NEW temp sensor in the exact spot on the intake that the holley used to be in. I left the holley one in the passenger side cylinder head so that I did not have to drain coolant. I unplugged the connector from the one in the head and moved it to the new one in the intake. Basically, all temperatures were dead spot on all night at the track. I also don't pull away any ignition timing based on temperature until way higher temps from where it was running on Friday night. I do appreciate your thought process, but I thought of that all ahead of Friday and there should be no correlation between the CTS and this bog issue. Also, remember, this bog happened in early april and mid april when the CTS was untouched.

Matt: So, I am partially thinking it might be oxygen sensor related. I have read countless times about the Holley O2 sensors failing, but the symptoms people describe don't seem to match mine. Lots of topics on this at the Holley forum, and most I have read just have a sensor go pegged dead lean at 35 or something. I don't have that. After those two open loop passes I was confident in the base table and knew that the engine wasn't hurt or anything. Nor the trans. So, to test that idea that an O2 sensor was acting wacky, I loaded up a known good (non-drag race) tune and drove home, eyebaling the AFR readings the whole time. And, the whole time, the afr and o2 sensor did nothing that even suggested it was problematic. I drove 30 minutes, in all 4 gears on the way home, even with some moderate pulls on rt 80 just to run the engine and efi through its paces. Its fine, never bogged, never did any crazy afr readings.

feel free to keep the advice coming. Would love to get this issue resolved really soon, as I am due to bring the car for the roll bar install in a few weeks and would really like to have an 11.7x pass under my belt by then.

LTb1ow

05-09-2021, 07:56 PM

Another thought, in theory if you were losing fuel pressure it would read lean, and CL would try to dump fueling in there. Or a injector not firing as it should.

And since you had spark plug wires and headers off, def make sure you have all cylinders firing and no exhaust leaks prior to WB.

What percentage do you have CL set to? IMO, if the tune is solid, you should have learning turned off and only allow small percentage CL changes.

TaKid455

05-10-2021, 09:07 AM

"Wouldn't it be more pronounced at higher rpms such as at the top of 2nd or 3rd gear though instead of such a short period of time mid-rpm in 1st gear?"

It would be consistent in each gear. RPM may vary but the affect would still present itself.

As stated, something is telling the ECU its lean or has an extreme temp cold or hot. ECT or IAT sensor.

You could have a wonky O2, but one would presume it would be consistent regardless of gear.

Look through your IAT, O2 & ECT data. You are looking for a blip leading up to & including the problematic area as the issue is only occurring for a brief.

Blackbirdws6

05-10-2021, 02:41 PM

A couple questions.

1. How much fuel did you run in the tank? You're getting what looks like a nice little lean spike on the initial hit which calms down through the run. Did your prior logs show this?

2. Are you logging fuel pressure and system volts? I'd be curious what those values look like through the run.

IROCZman15

05-10-2021, 07:44 PM

Matt:
Yup. I am very meticulous about bolt checks and triple checking that everythign is tightened down after a heat cycle or two. That's kinda built into who I am, and I have a pre-race event check list where I make sure I do my specific bolt checks, headers and exhaust has always been on the list. I agree wit hyou about if I was losing fuel pressure it would read lean. However, al that happens is usually a lean spike and then the CL comp sees this little spike and goes crazy adding tremendous amounts of fuel. There is indeed somethign interesting/confusing I noticed on pass #5, which I will post below, because the AFR was RICH at 10.0 and hte CL comp was going nuts adding fuel anyways. See below. I agree with you about limiting learn and CL comp amounts. I had everythign locked down pretty good last year to where the CL comp could only take away 10% of fuel and could only add 25% fuel across the whoel table on all of my drag-race based tunes. This seemed to work out well. I was told that this is wise, but a smarter decision would be to have the Cl comp be able to add 100% but only take away about 10-20%. Reason being, in case a mechanical problem actually really did happen, the computer could save the engine by adding fuel quicker than I could come off the pedal or turn off the engine. That made sense to me, but it might have opened the floodgates (literally) for the CL comp to start doing whatever it wanted to do, including adding massive amounts of fuel for an unknown reason.
.

Larry: yes, glad I wasn't thinking incorrectly about that aspect of it. So, since I see almost NO Cl comp added at the top of gears 2 and 3, especially while at WOT, I am pretty confident that it is not a fuel system or fuel delivery issue. Some of the guys on the Holley forum are telling me its fuel system related, and I will investigate this aspect as much as I can, but I am still thinking it is tune, ecm, sensor, related. Same thinking as you regarding that O2 sensor being wonky. I would think that in the course of the last 5 weeks of driving the car, 3 drag race days, and whatnot, the O2 symptoms would be more prevalent than just simply acting up at Island dragway in a drag launch. I would see all sorts of wonky readings at various times. basically my learn table would look insane after simply driving the car a distance (like to and from Englishtown a few weeks ago), yet the learn table was super clean and low numbers, low enough that I never even decided to transfer the info to the base table. I am going to do my best to carve out some time to really dig into the datalogs and turn on every available sensor/parameter in each view-page and see if I can find this blip. If it is there, that will be the smoking gun.

Brian:
I had a completely full tank. The Shell gas station just half a mile away from Island Dragway is now open and I fueled up the whole tank with 93. I always make sure I have a full tank or as close to it as possible. I've never been of the thought that I can save a few pounds of weight and run a half tank of fuel. This became apparent to me back in 2017 at the Optima Street-car challenge when I was doing autocross and speed stop laps and my tank was low and for sure it was starving the old engine. I have always seemed to have either a rich or a lean spike at the hit whenever I launch. Since I am always leaving either at idle or a 1500-1800 rpm foot brake, and it is TBI so no injectors per cylinder, it has done both lean and rich spikes. I spend a lot of time refining the base table in this area, and I can only do so to a certain extent, without it getting screwed up during the burnout when it hits those same cells in the base table. Also, sadly, the Sniper software can not log fuel pressure. My mechanical analog gauge can, but that is under the hood. Testing of it over the winter showed it to be at 61-62 psi and the sniper's internal regulator likes fuel pressure at 59.5 psi, but they say give or take a few psi is fine. As for volts, my Holley reads low. It is wired directly to the battery with 10 gauge wire. When the battery reads 12.2 and the car is off, the sniper reads 11.9 or 11.8. On the datalogs, the battery trace is very consistent, yet numerically low at 13.3 volts...but it has been this way for every datalog in the last 14 months. The alternator is a powermaster unit and it is only a few years old. If you guys would like I can enable the battery trace on any datalog and show ya that it only drops by 0.1 and at most 0.2 volts at the hit of the throttle.

Pass 5:
This would stink if it was a failing injector or the like. Yet, I keep coming back to the clean Open Loop datalogs. But last night I did take notice of something on a closed loop pass, Pass #5, between 36 seconds & 39 seconds, which is when I launch.

What do you make of this situation:
- I had a fully cleared out Learn Table, all 0.0 numbers on there.
- Base tune is very solid and has been used many times prior.
- I footbrake launch from 1530 RPM and AFR goes rich, never does it spike lean.
- It goes immediately into Closed Loop and gets rich to about 10.0 AND then at the same exact time CL Comp comes in ADDING fuel. First at +4% then at +14%.
- AFR somehow gets less rich at 10.7, but the CL Comp is now +23%.
- AFR finally gets to Target AFR, but now the CL Comp is at an insane +57%.
- I feel the engine bogging, and I get out of it just at the same split second that the AFR now finally gets actually lean, at 14.7, and at this moment the CL Comp is +77%.

Why would CL Comp add tons of fuel if it's already reading a rich mixture? If as you said, fuel pressure is not at 60, well maybe that could so it, but is there a chance this is all an intermittent Closed Loop EFI problem and not a mechanical issue? There were no lean spikes until I got off the throttle. That makes no sense whatsoever to me. Anyone?

Datalog Screenshot:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51168398582_bf459d6b58_c.jpg

LTb1ow

05-11-2021, 07:11 AM

Check any of the modifier tables, perhaps they are now hitting cells that the new ECT allow?

IROCZman15

05-17-2021, 07:22 PM

I can get into more details about the 1st gear bog if anyone would like to discuss that further. Spent lots of time looking at past datalogs and examining the VE table and modifier tables. Also checked as much mechanical stuff as I could (fuel pressure gauge reads 62psi and barely takes a dip when engine is revved, all exhaust bolts tight, all injectors are spraying equally, zip-ties the notoriously unreliable injector connectors to stay locked in, checked a few plugs, etc). Did some test driving, the car acted better, but the true test would come on the track.. which I went to yesterday for my last Drag race day until probably the Fall of 2021. Also in the tune, I took away the ECU's ability to be in closed loop all the time. One of my thoughts with this bog, is that the ECU is spiking rich, lean, rich lean so quickly through 1st gear it cant make up its mind about what to change quick enough. So for the first two passes, I kept the ECU in open loop until 4,000 rpms. For the second two passes, I kept the ECU in open loop for until 4,500 RPMS. The car didn't bog or stumble at all in first gear, but there was usually a very quick spike in the AFR trace. I've been told that on initial "tip in" with no air filter and a TBI, I should expect a spike/blip. So by keeping the ECU in open loop past this point, it avoided making ANY changes, and it really only came in to adjust my CL fuel compensation when I was higher in the rpms in 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear. I'm happy about that.

Also, I decided to buy the most inexpensive front DRAG strut available to see how the car lifted at launch. I bought the Lakewood 90/10 Drag strut. I know there are adjustable struts for big $, but I do not have the budget for those. These lakewood's do come up quick. I filmed a few short videos of them compared to the koni yellows when I did the strut swap. I have yet to edit or upload those videos, but I will do so in the next week. The lakewood 90/10 drag strut is not as "treacherous" on the street as some people have made it seem. The car was a bit floaty on the road, but I also had no front sway bar, skinny front tires, and the 90/10s. The did help the car lift and transfer weight better, but I launch at such a low rpm, that They aren't able to do their best job just yet. more on all that in the future.

Front tires were at 43 psi all day and rear tires were at 19 psi all day. Lakewood non-adjustable 90/10 struts up front and the Koni yellow shocks in the rear were at 4/5 all day which is medium-tight.
-fun note, every car in the lane next to me all 4 passes ran in the 9 second zone, so I felt like a total chump!

Pass 1:
Did a 6 second burnout, and now I am getting used to shifting into 2nd gear during the burnout, before I would just do 1st gear. My buddy John was there and we decided to see if I could get a little more RPM off the launch by not only going heavy on the foot brake, but also using the E-brake. The car began to roll just as I got close to 2,100 rpms and almost rolled the beams, so I just left. Datalog showed I went WOT at 2,228 rpms and the converter flashed at 3,015 rpms. No BOG ! Shifted 1st gear at 6665 and landed in 2nd gear at 4,732. It was right after the shift, when I saw the red light on the dashboard, and realized that I had not fully put het E-brake back down!! What a dope. So I fully released the e-brake, shifted 2-3 at 6,530 and landed at 4,870 rpms. Crossed the line at 6,214 rpms. Entire run was at 34 degrees of timing and target afr was 12.8, DA was 1365, Temp was 71 deg, and Humidity was 42%.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186055361_ce98f5bb86_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186094036_b3cc62b72b_c.jpg

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZJG5RGI_sw

Pass 2:
Another 2-gear, 6 second, mid rpm burnout, just enough to get the tires to smoke a puff. Footbrake launch at 1575 using the ebrake, and I put it down fully this time. Converter flashed at 3,018 rpms and I shifted out of first gear at 6684 rpms and landed in 2nd gear at 4870 rpms. Shifted 2-3 at 6596 and landed at 4888 rpms. Crossed the line around 6,100 rpms. Target afr was 12.8, Timing was 34.0 deg, DA was 1286 Temp was now 70 deg, and humidity 44 deg.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51185363587_5aa933cf85_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186875379_c53f622b67_c.jpg

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D2oIybKBpw
-this video John filmed finally gives me an idea of how the car leaves the line. I can try to view itin slow-motion, but I can't see any tire spin, rear body squat, or anything bad.. it just leaves from such a low rpm that it takes a little effort to get up-and-go...

Pass 3: (quickest pass ever, so far)

Mid rpm 2 gear burnout for 5 seconds. Launched from an idle this time at 933 rpms and the converter flashed at 2950 rpms. Shifted out of first at 6,545 and landed at 4841 in 2nd. Shifted 2-3 at 6593 and landed at 4910. Crossed the finish line at 6,202 rpms. I had bumped the timing up one degree to 35.0 deg, and we also leaned out the target afr a little bit to 13.0. DA was 1174 temp was 68 deg and 48% humidity. In the lane next tome was my friend Kevin who runs high 9's in that awesome Trackhawk.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186055366_9909faa39a_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186094041_5cfcf55b90_c.jpg

video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M__Jokh5nU

Pass 4:

6 second, mid rpm, 2 gear burnout. Launched basically at idle again since my 60 foot was great last time. Converter flashed a little low this time, at 2812 rpms. 1-2 shift was 6736 landing at 4,876 and the 2-3 shift was 6,552 landing at 4,847 rpms. Finish line rpm was 6,230. Target AFR was 13.0 and ignition timing was 35.0 I did not remember to check weather data before this last pass.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51187125635_a766660c61_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51185401627_23ddb33389_c.jpg

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGTGxinJOE

So overall, man, I was really realllly hoping for a timeslip with an 11.79x et on it at around 117 mph. I am o.k. with the timeslip from pass 3 which was 11.8000 at 116.19 mph. I do think it is possible, but I will have to wait for a while as I switch the car over to autocross and car show mode for the summer months. I am also set to have the roll-bar installed in June.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186055391_65bcf1263d_c.jpg

After getting home, and as always keeping an eye on the high oil pressure, I removed the drag wheels to give them a wash since they will be going away for a few months while I switch to autocross. At this time I noticed a crack in the hub of the drivers side front Jegs SSR wheel. WOW. scary. I removed the passenger wheel and noticed a similar crack. Wow, extra scary. I have never ever, not even once, used an impact gun to tighten these down. I always, always, always use my mechanical torque wrench. I bring them to 90 ft/lbs each, and then bring them to 110 ft/lbs each. How the heck could these have both cracked? I do think they are salvageable, and I am going to research what to do. Cast aluminum, so I am thinking the crack can be opened up to its deepest point, welded with aluminum filler rod, and buzzed down. Thoughts?

Drivers side:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51187125675_c55c4d5f95_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186836689_c0d596e63e_c.jpg

Pass side:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51186055356_24c6942c4e_c.jpg

Blackbirdws6

05-18-2021, 03:36 AM

Wow that's more than a little scary. I assume the hub size isn't too tight on the wheel? Anything on either hub that would somehow cause it to bind a little? I wouldn't attempt to get that fixed personally and contact Jegs to see what they can do for you.

wretched73

05-18-2021, 06:53 AM

You can absolutely weld them up, that isn't an issue. I'd see about a warranty with Jegs as well. Glad you noticed them before it turned into a bigger issue

IROCZman15

05-18-2021, 09:20 PM

Hubs on the rotors are clean and clear. In fact, from time to time I clean them and then I smear a little coat of silver anti-sieze on the hub part of the rotor hat too, as it helps with removal on some of my other vehicles where the wheels aren't removed all that often.
The hole in the wheel hub has plenty of clearance on the hub and dust cover area too, nothing too tight, but not sloppy loose either. Whenever I install any wheel on any car, I sit down under the wheel opening, roll the wheel into my lap, and use my legs to lift the weight of the wheel into place, and HOLD it there while I hand spin on the lug nuts. I used to use an old school speed-wrench too, and then I would get out the torque wrench. Fr about 20 years now, My process has never been problematic for wheels on any of my vehicles or others, so it is weird that very similar cracks developed on two wheels in a short timeframe. I had both wheels off the car just the day before, while I was installing the Lakewood 90/10 drag struts. Not saying that i examined the backside of them, but I did not see any signs of cracking then.

My rule of thumb for the past 20+ years has been that steel wheels get torqued to 80-100 foot lbs, and aluminum wheels 100-120 foot lbs. My original aluminum iroc wheels, my eagle alloy aluminum ones, my boze forged aluminum ones, and these jugs SSR wheels were all always torqued to this 100-120 spec. Looked at the JEGS SSR wheel tech sheet and they call for an astoundingly LOW 40 foot pounds. I'm sorry, but I could not bring myself to drive the car for a moment if I only torqued my front wheels to 40 foot pounds.
- scroll down to the "instructions tab" on this website and view instructions pdf. https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/680251/10002/-1
and step #5 says approx 40 foot lbs.

weird

Anyways, I agree with wretched, I think they are fixable. Either by a professional wheel shop or by a good welder who can weld aluminum. Not just fill it, but pre-heat the aluminum wheel, grind open the crack, and structurally repair the crack. I am going to call jegs in a day or so, but I am assuming that since I am not the original purchaser of the wheels, they will just tell me, hey, nothing we can do for ya. I will make the phone call though. I really like the wheels and want to keep them for a few more years until I can get my dream drag race wheel/tire setup. Centerline Convo-Pro skinnies and rears. One day, one day.

Blackbirdws6

05-19-2021, 07:02 AM

So are you going to torque them to 40 or something else?

IROCZman15

05-19-2021, 11:05 AM

No way would I be comfortable torquing them to only 40 foot pounds. I’ll get em fixed and maybe torque then to 80-90. 40 seems so low. I’m no metallurgist or science guy but I don’t know how 40 would be tight enough on an acorn lug nut on wheels that turn, street drive, and are used as actual wheels

sweetbmxrider

05-19-2021, 11:13 AM

Are you sure the acorn is seating into the wheel and not bottoming out? I think I remember jegs and summit having issues with Chinese knock-off wheels.... looks like there is damage opposite of the crack, don’t know if it was existing though

IROCZman15

05-19-2021, 03:17 PM

Good point. I’m pretty sure that they aren’t bottoming out but I’d really have to check. I know I have always had to use a 1/4” spacer between the rotor and wheel to deliver the clearance from the inner rim-face to the caliper fins. This I researched before buying the wheels and I found this answer on the corvette forums ( I run a C4 HD brake setup) for those who use the JEGS SSR wheel. I tried without the spacer on the first day I had the wheels and they did scuff them caliper. So the 1/4” spacer is mandatory. I’m pretty sure the wheel damage is my doing and it’s off that the same damage is on both front wheels. I will be repairing/saving the wheels but in the interest of preventing this from happening in the future, I’ll check a few things like you guys have suggested. And I’ll call JEGS too

LTb1ow

05-19-2021, 04:40 PM

Personally, if those were my wheels they would be hitting the scrap pile asap.

IROCZman15

05-19-2021, 07:52 PM

Understood; both sides of keeping/tossing the wheels. Not going to immediately scrap them, I have several months before drag racing again. They are repairable, and thats probably the route I am going to go. Can't afford more new wheels. Been spending too much money on this car recently and I don't make much money at my new job. Roll bar, struts, Falken tires for all 4 corners, race day costs, will need tires mounted and balanced, and then an alignment. If someone wants to buy me new wheels or give me new wheels, thats another story.

Decided to take a closer look at the wheels today. Noticed something that I never took a close enough look at before. Weird. Some kid of machining that removed some of the metal on the hub face. Noticeable difference in the metal height. Hard to see in the pics. Also I included a photo of the spacer that I use, and the ridge that is in the hub face is not from the spacer. It looks actually machined. Wondering if this ridge/step in the metal face caused the hub to repeatedly get tightened strangely enough to distort the wheel and eventually cause a crack.

Check this out. Different material thickness at the wheel hub face. Less material towards the center opening of the wheel, probably a fed thousandths of an inch. Why would this exist?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191115659_f8a1677d84_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51190339596_ba528182b6_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191405940_04b943f2ec_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191108044_11c5f95521_c.jpg

Blackbirdws6

05-19-2021, 09:22 PM

Don't be offended but I'd guess this is just the quality of a cheaper wheel cast and then machined to do it's job. Tolerances won't be perfect. Perhaps the spacers aren't perfectly flat either which could cause uneven stress on the wheel resulting in cracks from you tightening them past recommended. I recall the aluminum wheels in my grandfather's XJS jag being so soft that they would bend if you didn't torque them down right.

In any case, I agree that I'd be concerned with running them with 40 ft lbs on the lugs but going beyond what's recommended could likely lead toward more cracking. Food for thought and recognizing funds aren't there for new wheels. Perhaps fix and sell these and maybe a different set will pop pup that will not be a stretch on the wallet.

IROCZman15

05-20-2021, 07:54 PM

no, not offended at all. I am always in search of tech advice and opinions from those who know mroe than me, so I would not get offended. I tend to write a LOT in my posts but only in an effort to put as much info out there and avoid any back-and-forth questions regarding a topic that I could just simply type out initially.

Yup, I agree, it is probably a combination of cheap cast Jegs wheels, that odd machined grove on the back of the hub, maybe an imperfection that is/was on one of the spacers, and me slightyl overtightening them. I could see it being more prone to damage if I rammed them on with an impact gun on the max setting, but thats not the case.

I had done some re3asearch too, and also a friend mentioned that usually for wheel tightness specs, its not so much the wheel that dictates the torque specs, its the torque rating of the lug stud. usually 12 mm and 1/2 studs are in the 80-120 range depending on which entity you find your info from.

Yup, I am going to keep my options open for a while. I was fortunate enough to pickup a free Miller Tig Welder and a free Linde Mig welder and I just finished installing a 100 amp 220 volt subpanel in the garage. I bought some welding equipment, a mixed gas cylinder and a pure argon cylinder and have just gotten a change to start playing around with those welders. Just fired up the Tig welder for the first time ever just this afternoon after work. Might get some practice in during the next few months and see how I can attack the wheel repair. if it doesn't seem to work, well, then the wheels just were not meant to be. Yea, we could all say that bringing them somewhere is an option too, but if I just caved in and brought my car to a repair place every time it needed something, well I would not enjoy this hobby very much at all. I'll see. Not overly concerned at this point really.

wretched73

05-21-2021, 07:01 AM

Have you ever Tig welded before?

Regardless I think you can handle the repair with a little practice before hand.

TaKid455

05-21-2021, 07:14 AM

Kenvil welding down the road from you can fix these.

Before you fix these yourself, practice not only Tig welding but also the fun of welding cast aluminum. It is doable but a dirty casting can make the job 'fun'.

Dirty meaning used / run through mud & physically dirty when made or porous. Also a beginner's tip when welding thick aluminum, its a big ice cube & will suck up heat leaving you with a nice cold booger weld. Adjust your settings accordingly.

The_Bishop

05-21-2021, 05:10 PM

In my mind, you need to consider two factors:

How much is your car worth to you?

What did those wheels cost?

Personally, I'd scrap 'em. Can they be fixed? Probably. Will they ever be 100% trustworthy again? Nope.

Those spacers aren't helping anything, either. If you need those spacers, then what you really need is a wheel with the correct offset to replace what you have now.

IROCZman15

05-21-2021, 08:59 PM

Yup, I get it. but think about how many OTHER thongs could fail or come loose on a car which could cause havoc. Especially a modified car built by a hobbiest like me. A simple 0-ring could go out on a fuel injector (tom bailey), A brake line could blow out, a bizarre ignition issue could wreak havoc on the engine (been there done that September last year), so I am not going to go full blown panic mode about a crack in a wheel. I was more after the scientific and tech info related to how salvageable it could be.

I will eventually bring em to a place for evaluation such as: Kenvil welding which Larry suggested, or USA wheels in Fairfield, or Harry of Harry's Hot Rod Shop in Dover (nearby Fania roofing). My neighbor who passed away from Covid in April of last year was a professional welder his entire life, he would have been great to chat with and practice welding with. RIP John

Just yesterday afternoon, I fired up the TIG welder for the first time I have ever used a Tig welder. Was pretty cool! I will have to get used to the action of using a foot pedal and feeding a rod with a glove on. I get free scrap metal (steel and aluminum) at work and I am all excited to practice as much as I can. I know I am not experienced enough to do it now, especially on cast aluminum like you guys discussed, because it is very tricky. But, perhaps I'll develop the necessary skill to attempt the project. Since I am not yet an accomplished welder, this is why I have opted to have a pro-welder install the roll bar in June. I'm not one to back down on a challenge or be hesitant to improve my mechanical abilities, but a roll bar setup is out of my league now. Going to keep practicing on scrap metal, and then move on to building a rolling cart for the welders and gas cylinders.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193642437_86e9f0ccd9_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193664702_8eef10a9ed_c.jpg

As for the spacers, I only use them to clear the brakes on these drag wheels. I had my Boze Forged wheels built to my backspacing specs and they are spot on. The Jegs wheels were a damn good deal from a good buddy so I was lucky to get them that cheap and use them for many drag days and street driving. Having a customs et of drag wheels is not in my price budget now as I have money budgeted for roll bar, and othe stuff mentioned above.

also cool:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51193642442_526b41a119_c.jpg

PolarBear

05-22-2021, 09:32 AM

Honestly, this is something you should be in a full panic over. That crack can be welded over, but unless you grind out the entire crack it will still be there once you, cosmetically, weld over it.
Isn't your car worth more than some cheap wheels? Is it worth the risk of one of them coming apart at speed and totaling your car?

I am not a welder, but I do OK at it. Personally I wouldn't even attempt to do a cast wheel as a first TIG project. It's cast, it's dirty, it's not flat and you'll need to push that welder pretty hard to get enough heat into that flange.

IROCZman15

05-22-2021, 09:55 AM

wretched73

05-22-2021, 05:52 PM

Still
Not
Panicking

These aren’t daily driver wheels on a daily driver and I don’t do the king of the hammers competition with this car. I have plenty of time to decide what do to and how to go about this.

Of MUCH more concern than the cracked wheels, is my
High oil pressure issue that has been present since September/October of last year. Willing to discuss it if the discussion is tech related

Glad you aren't panicking lol IMO those guys are blowing the cracked wheel out of proportion. This is NJ, the roads are dog **** on their best day, cast or forged wheels are no match and they are repaired regularly. Get your practice in, clean it up nicely, lay a nice bead.

Did you post about the high oil pressure issue before? It doesn't ring any bells. With your meticulous maintenance, I don't think I'd worry about it much.

IROCZman15

05-23-2021, 08:17 PM

I had success today getting the wheels repaired. I am now ready for Drag Week 2021 and the Pikes Peak hill climb.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51199719435_2e7024e43e_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51198659331_5edaefb665_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51198867233_4632da2e80_c.jpg

(joking obviously)

Yea, as for the oil pressure, I had noticed it all of a sudden became higher than usual just on my last Test and Tune day at island in October of last year. I did my research, and called the engine builder as well as Melling (oil pump) tech support. Both of them said its on the borderline of being problematic, but to keep an eye on it. So I have kept an very watchful eye on it for sure. I have verified the reading with an auxiliary Maddox pressure gauge and the dash needle is correct. I initially typed a little bit about this on the thread where I got an oil analysis test-kit done, just to make sure everything was healthy in the engine as 2020 came to a close. http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69185

I have read a whole ton of internet stuff about high oil pressure. The consensus is that the check valve in the pump is probably stuck closed. (not the check valve bypass valve in the filter) I don't have oil leaks, and when I did the intake manifold repair I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary in the valley tray, under the valve covers, or in the oil or oil filter after I did an oil change when the intake manifold was back on. It is a Dart SHP block, so it has priority-main oiling, meaning that the upper valvetrain could be effected from an oil pressure. Would really suck to have to drop the oil pan just to check for a POSSIBLE "stuck check valve" and find out that it is something different.

Might hookup the auxillary oil pressure gauge again and take a video of cold start, cold warmup, and driving around to help explain what I am seeing, but at idle its 70psi, and while driving and wot it floats above the dash gauges readout of 80, so I am guessing it is in the 95-100 range. It is a melling high-volume pump; not a melling high pressure pump.

I installed the lakewood 90/10 struts a week ago and they definitely helped with the weight transfer of the car at launch. I did not even have a hint of tire spin, but I still can't get the nose airborne, likely because I can only leave from idle or high idle, or up to 1,800 rpm. From m research, nobody makes a great transbrake for a 700R4, and I am skeptical of going that route anyways.

I did make a video about the Lakewood 90/10 front strut install, just because i was impressed with how quickly the struts sprung up. To skip past my chattering, you can start the video at 7:30 mins in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys_FwFkD7hI
- However, since I am not drag racing for a few months, I already took the struts off and put the Koni yellows back on the car, along with the front swaybar.

This weekend there was a big fundraiser car show-cruise event here at Lake Hopatcong, with the Cops-n-Rodders club. They had about 400-425 cars that metup and drove around the lake. Tons of spectators along the route, the mayors and police and firefighters all worked to block off roads and ENCOURAGED BURNOUTS ! There were certain spots along the way where everyone was frying the tires; seriously almost everyone! I did 12 burnouts along the way, some of them using the line-lock an going from 1st, 2nd, and into 3rd gear, right next to police and spectators. Way cool!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51198656791_8c181ba7b6_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51197944812_51aed224c9_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51198864728_5c4af9d90b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51197944832_5ef7dbc46f_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51199432954_cd924c3146_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51197947017_3e8e9a448d_c.jpg
- I was always curious to see if my brake lights were bright enough in the pure daytime sunlight after spray-tinting the rear tail-lights, and this photo answers my question
-Also, just moments after this photo, I did a good burnout directly under that american flag. Someone got videos from far far away of this burnout spot, my car comes across the screen at about 20:05 in the video.....which was apparently filmed with a very bad camera! link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRA6vtSBYY&t=1247s

lastly, on the way home from the cruise, I stopped by the local concrete quarry to weigh the car as it sits in full street mode. This is with the whole sound system in, empty nitrous bottle, full full tank of fuel, full interior. Weight with me in the car is: 3760 and without me is 3560. Seems legit, as I weigh about 194 pounds. I weighed the car now to find out what it weighs pre-roll-bar-installation. Last time I weighed the car last year was right before a test-and-tune dragstrip event and the car was stripped down in the interior and if I remember correctly, it was 3320 pounds.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51198659201_816aa59d71_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51199719150_d9bb9f5193_c.jpg

Thats it for now.

IROCZman15

06-08-2021, 08:06 PM

A buddy of mine sent me these two photos that someone random posted online from that Lake Hopatcong cruise:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51235047068_c1a83003da_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51235612699_9b4dbef2fc_c.jpg

Got a great deal on a used NOS nitrous cheater plate from a guy on thirdgen.org. Will clean up the gasket/mounting surfaces and probably paint the outsides of it silver to match the theme of my engine.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51234837041_4177a3e281_c.jpg

The car is currently at the Fabrication shop for the roll bar install. He will be starting on it this week, as the swing-out pieces just arrived.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51234837051_7aa3b44616_c.jpg

I ordered the SFi padding for the main hoop, and not sure if I will use the non-SFI padding anywhere else, but I got two pieces anyways since they were only about $5 each. I got this cool 2-part paint, with a button on the bottom that releases an activating agent. Just need to pickup some good etching-primer.

Also, when the car gets back, I need to replace the radiator. It has had a very small pinhole leak somewhere in the lower area of the core/rows, and I can not visibly see it. Champion has LIFETIME FREE REPLACEMENT on these radiators. I have been in contact with them for many months, waiting on an EXACT replacement of my 2-row AE951 radiator, but they have not had any in stock in months. Sadly the cores are made in china, and nothing has come over in a long time. So, instead they shipped me a 3-row replacement. Hopefully it cools just as well, and does not leak. Free shipping both ways, and hopefully I don't loose too much fluid while I do the replacement.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51235903500_75cbb18458_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51235612769_79bd6dfa65_c.jpg

While the car is out of the garage, I am doing a bunch of work to have better storage, work areas, and use of the space.

wretched73

06-09-2021, 07:18 AM

Nice, looking forward to more updates.

Before you hit anything with self etching primer, make sure the 2K you put over it will not have an adverse reaction. 2k is pretty much the best primer out there and I doubt you'll need a self etching primer under it

TaKid455

06-09-2021, 08:08 AM

Regarding the 2k, some are DTM. Some are not. Read the data sheets. Since its a nice car, if its going to react, it will. Meanwhile, a ****box will be fine.

IROCZman15

06-09-2021, 08:24 PM

cool, thanks!

great suggestions. I am surprisingly having a bit of difficulty in determining which primer is suggested, even on the spray max websites, and data sheets. Nothing on the back of the actual can says anything about primer, just what I should do when I swallow it, and some stuff in French. On the website, Nobody seems to mention it. They just mention their whole array of primers. Actually, on page #2 under "substrate" they say:
" Metal, Steel, Stainless Steel (cleaned and sanded). Depending on the surface select the appropriate
Primer to achieve maximum adhesion and corrosion protection "
so.... ??!?!

here is a link:
https://www.spraymax.com/en-us/products/product/top-coats/2k-hot-rod-black/

and here is that data sheet Larry mentioned.
https://download.kwasny.com/datasheets/TMB-3680212_(US)EN.pdf

This is strange, because I want to get the primer right for the best adhesion, but I can't currently find the answer to which aeresol primer to use.

My initial choice was this SEM etching primer, which is what I used on my engine bay project last winter. I can buy it locally at an auto-body supply store in Denville, but I don't want to buy/use it if it is wrong.
https://www.semproducts.com/product/self-etching-primer/39683

my other option is to buy the same brand's primer, So, Spray Max Primer. like this:

https://www.spraymax.com/en/products/product/primers-fillers/2k-epoxy-primer/

Initially I wasn't sure If I would need an etching primer or an epoxy primer. I won't have any thing that needs to have a filler-primer, so really, it is just what will be best on mild-steel, welds, and nearby Sheetmetal. Etching primer? Epoxy primer? I feel like I should definitely know this, but I am drawing a big blank right now

EDIT: Now I am thinking my best choice is probably this DTM Direct-T-Metal Primer by Spray Max
https://www.spraymax.com/en/products/product/primers-fillers/2k-dtm-primer-filler/

Thoughts/suggestions?

wretched73

06-10-2021, 06:56 AM

I'm not sure what you have. Every time I've heard 2k referenced, it has been 2k epoxy primer.

I'd get any 2k epoxy primer.

For example, eastwood's says not to spray over etching primer-

https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-s-2k-aerospraytm-epoxy-primer-gray-black.html

IROCZman15

06-27-2021, 07:16 AM

Had dropped the car off a few weeks ago at the fabrication shop. He had some other projects to finish, but once mine arrived at the shop it was in-line. Miro is a 1-man operation at his shop, but his quality of work is top-notch. He got a good amount of progress done this week, and if all goes well he will be finished with it by Friday of this week. Then my plans are to get the bars primed and painted. Swap the radiators. Get the 4 new Falken tires mounted, and get an alignment. After that I hope to get to a SCCA or MSNE autocross event at Giants Stadium before the UMI event in 1 months time.

Base plates installed (power wires were pulled away from the sheetmetal, that is not how they normally are routed):
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51273830136_3fea234df0_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274003063_11abe876b3_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274003093_d4ddaae593_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51273830236_1a8e60c0ee_c.jpg

He ensured all the interior panels fit and are fully removable with the bars in place, so in the event I ever need to take panels off there wont be any problems.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51273081657_1674980dca_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274003113_88985dc0c8_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274858670_1674980dca_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274858660_21215395f0_c.jpg

sweetbmxrider

06-28-2021, 05:56 AM

Lookin good

IROCZman15

07-02-2021, 07:51 PM

Picked up the car today from M.T. FABRICATION, in Stanhope, NJ...just 15 minutes from my house.

Miro is an incredibly welder and a very easy person to talk to. He took good care of the car while it was there and I highly recommend him to anyone and everyone. Everything is MIG welded except the joints for the swingouts/door bars. Those are TIG welded so that the weld is not raised as it prevents anyone from scraping their hand on the raised metal.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285190782_7582e1ff64_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285938741_af43409714_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51286968075_d207a126ed_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51285950841_e2990736fb_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51286669429_d4f358b644_c.jpg

I will be masking, prepping, priming, and painting the roll bar tomorrow.
in the coming week I still will need to:
- use upholstery dye on the front seats
- get the 4 new Falken tires mounted and balanced
- get a front end alignment
- swap out the Champion radiator with its replacement
- probably get a replacement battery for my 75/25 Optima Red Top battery p/n 8022-091 (one that fits into my battery box, possibly an Odyseey )
-sign up and get to an Autocross event at Met Life Stadium for next weekend.

IROCZman15

07-03-2021, 07:53 PM

Many hours of masking the car off, covering everything exterior and interior, scuffing surfaces with red scuff pads, wiping down with acetone; and finally primer, and paint. Also used some $5 upholstery dye to dye the front seats black.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51288118873_92cdd96edf_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51288667949_3dec025810_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51288120953_76e89ff415_c.jpg

sweetbmxrider

07-05-2021, 06:38 AM

Lookin very nice sir

IROCZman15

07-05-2021, 09:09 PM

Thanks! I'm pretty stoked about it for sure.

Got the interior back in today and did a half-setup of the 5-point harnesses too. Gotta spend some time getting them adjusted. No big deal really, just didn't get to it today. Decided to take out the oem seatbelts, I had toyed with the idea of leaving them in place for when I am just doing a short drive, but having them along with the 5-point harness looked too cluttered for me.

This winter I will be redoing the trunk area and stereo system with new subs and a new amp. . Right now it is just laid in place and not wired up, because I have to take it out most weekends in July for some autocross events.

Took some photos, but not really good ones yet. Filmed a video also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8FJ086sR4U

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51293065343_a616c82f13_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51292885981_c87afbc6f8_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51293891185_0f092d0795_c.jpg

thehazguy

07-06-2021, 08:57 PM

Dave, nicely done. Looks excellent

sweetbmxrider

07-07-2021, 11:26 AM

It does look excellent

Anti_Rice_Guy

07-07-2021, 11:41 AM

I used fabric paint on the vinyl seat of my boatercycle and it's lasted 5+ years in the sun and salt water.

The new setup looks as amazing as promised.

IROCZman15

07-07-2021, 08:10 PM

thanks fellas. Glad it turned out well.
Nick, I might try that fabric paint, if ya want to text me the product info, I will do some research. The seats I have are an off-brand and I can't find any info on what exact fabric they are made out of, but I am sure it is a non-natural synthetic type.

Getting the tires mounted Friday as well as the alignment done.
I am thinking of:
- an even 5.5 caster (same numbers for each side, as opposed to bigger # for crown in streets)
- a -1.0 deg camber
- I might go complete 0.0 for tow in/out. Used to go 3/32 toe in for the past 20 years, but I have been told that 0.0 is best for drag racing, and for autocross, actually 3/32 toe OUT is better. Thoughts?

Was hoping to get to an autoX this weekend but there is nothing at the Meadowlands, and the one down in Warminster, PA is some kind of novice driving school thing, so I am not going to go to that. I will be signing up for autoX for July 18, at Met Life.

I also still have to install the roll bar padding.

Did get the new/replacement radiator installed yesterday after work. It went in with no problems. All champion could give me was a 3 row at the current time, when I had previously had the 2 row. Hoping it cools similar enough. If not, I will have to wait until they have the 2-row radiators back in stock and ask them to ship me the proper replacement one.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51297284426_807db55fcf_c.jpg

wretched73

07-08-2021, 07:01 AM

I'd shoot for -0.065 to 0 for toe

IROCZman15

07-13-2021, 08:23 PM

cool, thanks.

Got the new tires put on. Alignment done also. Put about 80 miles on the tires so far, damn they are great! They do throw around a LOT of road pebbles into the wheel-wells and the outer fenders. yikes. Traveled about 15 of those miles in active rain too, and while I was a bit nervous, they did good and nothing silly happened. Didnt get good photos of them on the car yet.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51310753299_30455f82cf_c.jpg

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51309289517_425bf3915a_c.jpg

As mentioned before, the new replacement radiator is installed and doing well. Temps seem to be pretty much about where they usually are, but time will tell if the 3-row is better/same/worse than the 2-row. I am just happy for no leaks.

Decided to dig into the oil pressure issue again because I have some autocross events coming up. Hooked up the mechanical gauge and got readings of 55-60 psi with a cold engine at idle. With some revvs on the cold oil/engine it went to 85-90 i am happy with this. Just the readings on the dashboard gauge tell me a different story and it is unsettling looking at an incorrect gauge wile driving. Did lots of wiring testing, swapped out sending units and pulled out the dashboard. I could get into details but I don't know if it is worth it. I emailed the company who built the tachometer (which has the oil pressure gauge built into it) and he is kind enough to send me out a new board to try out, so hopefully that will be here soon and fix the problem. basically even though i know I have healthy oil pressure, i want to visually see it on the dashboard gauge. Instead, as soon as key on/engine off the needle maxxes out and lives there, showing me that I have 120+ psi of oil pressure with a non running engine.
I have tested grounds and ohms and whatnot.

I just signed up for the MSNE autocross day this upcoming Sunday at Met-Life Stadium. Hopefully it will be sufficient practice prior to the UMI event next weekend.

Blackbirdws6

07-14-2021, 08:11 PM

Tires look nice and sticky. They should do well. Oil pressure still seems high on throttle but as you covered before, it will live. Have fun at the auto x.

RamblerRacer

07-15-2021, 08:12 PM

Go out and get in man!

JT

IROCZman15

07-18-2021, 07:20 PM

The AUTOCROSS at Met-Life stadium got canceled today. Not because of rain, not because of low turnout, but for a really unfortunate reason....parking.
So, yesterday there was supposed to be a Monster Truck Monster Jam event, which got rained out. So, the stadium rescheduled it for today, the same day as our MSNE autocross event. Both COULD have gone on simultaneously, but the word is that the stadium realized that they could gain more money in vehicle parking fees from monster jam spectators, compared to the money they would gain from MSNE autocross. So, at freaking 9 pm last night, less than 12 hours prior to the start of the autocross race, they canceled it on us. What a bummer it was. I planned my whole weekend around this and needed the practice so I could get used to the new tires, new roll bar, 5 point harnesses, and to built an EFI tune off of what I would have gained today. Now I will be showing up to the big UMI autocross with no real autocross seat time. Not cool. not fun.

I took the car over to an industrial/business park area and did my best to run the car through some pretend slaloms, tight turns, and lock-to-lock turns. Car did well, tires got sticky and picked up a ton of rocks/gravel. Kept it at safe speeds, but doing this was not nearly the equivalent of what I could have practiced at a real autocross. I am mad at Met-Life stadium for being greedy and pulling the last minute cancellation on the MSNE group. I'm guessing if it was the SCCA autocross group scheduled for today, they would not have gotten bumped out in favor of parking.

wretched73

07-19-2021, 06:55 AM

Well that blows.

IROCZman15

07-21-2021, 10:51 PM

heading out to Clearfield, PA tomorrow mid-day for the UMI Performance Autocross. Still have to pack the car up tomorrow morning and then it is about a 4 hour drive to get out there. Scott, Billy, and Joe are going as usual, and a few thirdgen.org people I know will also be there. Won't be back until Sunday probably.

Blackbirdws6

07-22-2021, 10:04 AM

Have fun and safe travels. It's a good ride and a great time.

IROCZman15

07-22-2021, 11:05 PM

Just when I thought everything was in place for a great weekend, a complete curveball comes my way! During my drive out to the event I had a misfire, and checking the holley sniper handheld I realized that there was a fuel issue because it was compensating by adding a TON of fuel. Determined that one of the 4 injectors in the holley sniper throttle body is not flowing any fuel; verified this by looking down the barrels. 3 of the injectors spray fuel, the front passenger side does not. As i was troubleshooting this on rt 80 in Nj I was texting with Larry and changing tunes and going into open loop mode. The sniper CL comp and learn functions did their job quite well and I did an easy cruise alllllllll the way to the track, which took 5 hours instead of the usual 4 hour. Chatted with Tom, Ramey and a bunch of people here while trying to source a replacement. Apparently Holley uses a non-available style/specification of injectors, and when people's injectors fail, they require the sniper to be shipped back to holley for repair. Kinda not what I had hoped to hear, 230 miles from home, and less than a few hours before my favorite autocross event of the year. O'Rileys auto parts has an LS# injector that may fit, but it only flows about half the fuel 942 pounds) compared to the 100 pound holley injector. I ordered it anyways, it is Standard Motor parts PN FJ988 and it wont be in their store here by the track until 4pm tomorrow, which is when day 12 of autocross ends.*

* Not sure what I am going to do, would hate to sit the event out before I even make one lap. I could run it on 3 injectors and just add a ton of fuel to the other 3 injectors to compensate..because it is a TBI setup.* *Man, of all the weekends for something to fail, it had to be this weekend. jeez

LTb1ow

07-23-2021, 07:23 AM

Sucks but I would not run it when you know it's down or rigged.

You will end up with a pair of cylinders with poor afr unless you try and adjust via fuel cylinder trims to "fix" the smaller injector.

IROCZman15

07-24-2021, 06:23 AM

I will type up a better version if this next week after this ordeal is all said and done, but just as a brief update here is where I am at now.

After learning from this forum that I can't just go out and buy a holley specific 100# injector, I spent tons of time searching for a compatible one. O'Riley autoParts is near the track and was able to order me a "comparable" one, but for 4pm on Friday. The race is all day Friday and Saturday, but I had them order it anyways. IT is standard Motor Parts STD FJ988 which cost $83.

In the meantime, I knew I was going to miss the day of racing, so I tried calling local shops at 8am when they opened up Friday. A local diesel fuel injector repair shop was my best bet, but they told me they doubted they could check mine. They turned me on to a guy names Al, who is a retired engine builder and local winning racer of years gone by. I called Al, who was busy at the moment but he told me to meet him at a local Napa. I then borrowed Scott’s truck and met Al, and followed him through the hills of rural PA out to his house. He certainly was a local engine builder, with trophys, old racing hats and Polaroids, engine parts galore, a 2000 trans am Ws6 with a 427 and two stages of nitrous as his current toy car.

He had a fuel injector tester at his home garage, and we were hopeful that he could remedy the situation. He put the injector into an ultrasonic bath cleaning for 10 minutes, back-flow cleaned it, ohm tested it, pulled out he internal screen, ran a speed test and so forth. The injector would click, but not flow a drop of fluid. his determination was that the internal mechanism of the injector came apart, so there was no saving it. He tried, but it was hopeless. Went back to the track and spectated.

Luckily ORileys had their truck come in at noon instead of 4 pm. So I borrowed Scotts truck again and got the injector. Height wise it was the same but I noticed the bottom seat was tapered where the Holley injector is flat. Went back to the track, installed it after conferring with some of my buddies. Worked and sprayed!! Wow! Very cautiously I looked for leaks and none were found. I went out and made a lap, even though my plugs were fouled and tune was not the best. Made a decent lap but the whole
Time I was ready to get out of the throttle
If it started to backfire, but it did not. Made a couple more autocross laps and everything seems good to go now for the full day of racing. I changed the spark plugs last night and re-loaded a clean tune as well.

What a roller coaster this situation has been, but I am hopeful I can race all day today and then drive the car the 230 miles home tomorrow morning.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51329839313_1357a49511_c.jpg

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So let’s see how today goes…!

wretched73

07-24-2021, 07:11 AM

Glad you're getting it sorted. Looking forward to more updates

IROCZman15

07-26-2021, 09:48 PM

Whew, what a weekend! I will certainly type up an event recap in the coming days, perhaps even next week. Gotta upload photos, videos, etc.

I did ensure that the "replacement" injector stayed snug in the TBI and did not leak. I reloaded a clean tune file and made some fuel tune adjustments to accommodate for the lesser flowing injector. I was indeed able to race all the laps on Day 2 of the event and The engine/EFI performed well despite being down on capable power. Did not explode the engine, did not run it lean, did not foul the new spark plugs, and it didn't even misfire. Thank God for CL-Comp% and datalogging!

Drove the car home on Sunday morning and had zero issues with the drive aside from my dashcam is starting to get sensitive to vibration/harmonics it seems. Will discuss that later or in the other dashcam thread maybe

Anyways, today I called Holley. I am on the Holley EFI forums and have done heavy research on this dead injector topic over the last few days. I knew Holley was going to say "we will not ship you a replacement injector, we can only fix it if you ship the whole unit to us in kentucky". After 45 minutes on hold I spoke to a staffer who fully agreed that my situation was crappy. I got the answer form him I expected. I fought him tooth and nail for half an hour about simply just sending me (or selling me) a proper 100# injector. They refuse to do it. It is a liability if someone installs the injector wrong and burns down their car.... I just do not understand this.. Holley sells FUEL pumps, fittings, lines, gauges, regulators etc. All of that can certainly be installed wrong too though. Someone can overtighten a fitting and crack it, causing a jet stream of fuel to spray out just the same as anyone can damage an O-ring. People on the Holley forums have been angry and in disbelief about this exact topic for years and years now, but nothing can be done. They won't send you a replacement injector. (sidenote, back in the fall of last year they did send me a replacement internal fuel pressure regulator inside the sniper ... and I installed it, which was more "involved" than an injector,....but wth, its their "policy). I asked them where I could buy the exact injector from another supplier (so they were no longer burdened with liability) and they would not give up the source of their injector supply.

Not having much options, I started an RMA number/claim just in case I decide to send this whole sniper in to them for repair. IT will take them 2-3 weeks to get it repaired. Sadly, I can do the injector repair in 3-5 minutes.. tops... start to finish. If I do send the unit in, that will stink, but it will allow me to continue to use the car and race it for the rest of the year. I still plan on spraying a small nitrous shot at it in the fall too. If I were to wait until winter to send the sniper in, I would just be limited to car shows and cruise nights, as I am not going to race the car with 3 normal injectors, and one inadequate injector that only flows 42 pounds instead of 100.. despite mathematical "duty-cycles" and all that can be adjusted in the tune.. I'm just not going to be dumb and race it that way.

I will get to the event recap, just gotta decide what is best to do on this topic first.

LTb1ow

07-27-2021, 10:54 AM

It has one wide band and no way to fuel trim cyl per cyl, so its dumping fuel into the other cylinders to pretend that the over all AFR is good. Happy nothing went wrong, but seems super sketchy to have run it like that.

Kinda a long shot, but in theory couldn't you source four new 100# injectors that physically fit and fill in proper injector data?

IROCZman15

07-27-2021, 09:08 PM

Oh, trust me, it was "super sketchy" to say the least. I was terrified of burning the car down for 100% of every second of the entire weekend. I looked (and felt) like an idiot because I had my tuning laptop with me and I was constantly checking datalogs and tune files. Scott and Billy were joking at me about the computer, and I deserved it, but I mentally just had to make sure I had everything "adjusted" as well as possible. As for racing, its tough to tame yourself back when you have this situation while you go out there and make a series of good laps and want to keep going and improving.

As for the injectors, through the magic of the internet, I made a few in-roads with some people who have some "parts donor" sniper EFI units, and some of them are willing to sell me an oem holley sniper injector. Working on making that transaction take place this week hopefully. I could try what you mentioned, but so far there has not been anything that can be found that checks all the proper boxes regarding size, diameter, flow, electrical connector type, and whatnot. At first glance, the terminator injector is the closest one, but there are mixed reviews on its functionality on the Holley EFI tech forums. Therefore, I am really striving to get a specific Sniper injector for the sniper. (Sidenote- I may only keep the sniper TBI EFI for another year or so, I think I am going to want to upgrade to something with more features, like a Holley Terminator or the 24X system that Larry has been suggestion. Maybe in 2023 though)

LTb1ow

07-28-2021, 06:03 AM

If you are used to Holley software, don't do yourself the disservice of going backwards with a 24x 0411 PCM setup. (unless you just mean 24x or 58x with Holley)

IROCZman15

07-28-2021, 06:34 AM

I had thought about that too, so that’s why I am probably staying with Holley but I will see what is new/available at that time whenever that time does come to be. If that time was now, I would do terminator x but in two years or so, I’m sure there will
Be something newer and better. We shall see, it’s a long way out anyways

Sent PayPal money to a performance shop
Owner way out west who is on the Holley EFi forums and he has a few spare injectors. $40 plush shipping. Should be here in a week.

IROCZman15

07-28-2021, 08:58 PM

Here is a recap. Get a drink and some snacks.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51340234098_12b15752ac_c.jpg

Had the car fully loaded and left my house for the 230 mile trip out to UMI Motorsports Park at 1pm on Thursday. Eight (yes, 8) minutes into the drive, a moment before I turned onto route 80, I felt a misfire and noticed lean AFR numbers in the Holley handheld display. I was confused but I got onto route 80 and soon pull over at the nearby "rest area". Check over some things and load a new tune file just in case something was weird with the one I had in the car. Still same misfire after driving another 10 minutes, and I pulled over again as I got nearby Blairstown. Checked spark plugs, wires, fuel lines, etc. Turned on my laptop, checked the learn table, and opened up the CL comp limits to let the computer compensate fueling and help smooth out the lean condition. This did work, but something was still not right. Limped the car for 200+ miles (4.5 hours) while watching the AFR like a hawk. That was nerve racking; 200+ miles is a long time to think about the problem and how to resolve it. During the drive it occurred to me that I probably had a bad fuel injector, and my thoughts were confirmed when I pulled off the air cleaner and saw that 3 injectors were pushing fuel, but the front passenger side injector was not flowing any fuel. WILD. I had hoped to get on at the track because Every year at UMI, the Summit Racing parts trailer is on the infield and sells parts. They can also OVERNIGHT parts to the event, since they are over in Ohio. However, sadly I later learned that this year.. no summit racing trailer at all! Anyways, when I got to the track, Scott and Billy were there and we discussed the problem. I was all jumbled up in my own head, but Scott is an ace with sourcing out parts online. He used the Holley part number (which is internal to Holley) to get the specs of the injector and find a suitable replacement injector in size, but not in fuel flow. Apparently a fuel injector for a 2014 SS camaro LS3 is of a similar shape/size. O'Riley auto Parts is about 7 minutes from the track so we went there since the website said they had some LS3 injectors in stock. They did not! The soonest they could get one would be 4pm on Friday, which would mean that I would have to sit out with a dead car for all of day 1. What a bummer. Didnt sleep much that night. Spent a few hours on the Holley forums and online reading about how quite a lot of people with Holley Sniper units have had locked up injectors and have explored possible remedies....yet nothing has been found to be a 100% complete replacement/fix.

click below for a 9 second video of the failed injector:
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/51339287322_65369e3568_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mdFguf)IMG_1670 (https://flic.kr/p/2mdFguf) by David Martin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/iroczman15/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51339294362_98c722e9a5_c.jpg

The next morning I called a local Diesel injector cleaning service who told me they could not help me, but the gave me the cell phone number for a guy named AL who is a retired racing engine builder and former winning dirt track racer. I called Al and he agreed to meet with me in Clearfield mid-morning. I went to the track for the drivers meeting and event opening ceremonies. Racing started and my group was called, but instead I borrowed Scott's truck and met Al. I then followed him way out to his house/garage/barn and this was wayyy out of cell phone service and off the grid. He turned out to be a really really cool guy, his garage is filled with old trophies, hats, engines in various states of assembly, etc etc.. AND a fuel injector testing/cleaning machine. Sidenote - Al has TWO silver 2000 trans am's one is his wife's and it has 33,000 original miles, and the other one is his.. it has a 427 LS engine, TWO 150 shot stages of wet nitrous, a 12 bolt, t-56, long tubes, and so forth. He fired that thing up with the exhaust uncorked and it sounded awesome. He no longer races, but has fun on the streets.

Anyways, he back-flowed the injector and fluid came out. He put it in an ultrasonic cleaning bath for 10 minutes too. He ran a speed test on it and used a pick to make sure that the pintle would open. The injector would click, you could hear it and feel it, but it would not open when it clicked. The conclusion was that the internal mechanism inside the injector is broken or disconnected. Therefore it was stone dead for life. I drove back to the track, using my memory and geography to find civilization again, and I stopped at O'Rileys on the way. They said the injector was not in, but it should arrive on the 3:55 pm truck. Then, back to the track and arrived just in time for lunch break. As I was eating lunch, Scott and Bill joined me and I divulged my adventure. As I was talking to them, O'Rileys called me and said, Hey, the injector is in! What the heck guys, I was just there 15 minutes ago!

Anyways, I borrowed Scott's truck again, went to Oriley's, and picked up the STD FJ-988. (It only flows 42pounds of fuel where the Holley injectors will flow 100 pounds. I've looked at drag race datalogs and My fuel flow duty cycle is around 68%) BUT, It does match for size, but the bottom mounting surface of the FJ-988 is tapered, while the sniper injector is flat. I was willing to try to install it, knowing I could return it if needed. Got back to the track, installed it, checked for leaks, and fired the engine up. It ran, idled, and revved up. No leaks, and my tune files and spark plugs were allll sorts of screwed up, but I was so happy, I didnt care about fixing those at the moment. Scott and Bill asked the track bosses if I could make a lap, and then I did. We all had fire extinguishers at the ready! I was super timid about leaning on the throttle and my foot was ready to leap off the accelerator if I heard or felt a misfire. I didn't though!

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Was able to make 4 runs in the afternoon, still nervous, but with boosted confidence that I could salvage the weekend. Despite being down on some top-end power (due to the less capable injector) I made some good runs. Nothing too fast, but I was also on brand new tires that I did not know how much I could realllly lean on them because I had no experience with them since last weekend's Met-Life event was canceled. After the track was cold, everyone got cleaned up and UMI put on a dinner at Ken's motorhome. Fire pits, cornhole, a country singer, and tons of food.

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For day 2, they ran the course backwards. I still was uncertain about how frisky I could get on the new tires when they were cold, and I found out real quick in the hard right turn at the beginning of the course during Run 1 of Day 2. That run I got a DNF, since I blasted through a wall of cones. The rest of the day I made clean passes, but still a bit timid. I think the hot tires could have taken more and more, so it is my fault for not working them harder. A fellow autocrosser told me I have too much rear brake because he said he could see my rear wheel almost stop when braking in hard turns, but my front tire is rotating much faster. So I took some rear brake bias out of it. Can't actually tell if it did anything though? Anyways, I had a blast on Day 2, despite coming up justttt shy of making a 39.xxx second run. A bunch of us then went over to Denny's beer barrel pub for burgers and whatnot.

Stayed overnight and drove home in the mid-morning after a double breakfast. Car drove great on the ride home and engine/EFI was happy. Car was filthy, but that is easily remedied. Will be getting a replacement injector from a guy in Oregon next week. All weekend, even in the long staging grid lanes, I never saw a temperature above 194 deg. So the new replacement 3-row radiator is doing its job just fine! Another thing that I was happy about, was the whole brake/vaccum booster situation. I haven't made any autocross runs since the UMI event in 2020, basically a year ago to the day. I know the vacuum canister has been working on the street and also for drag racing, but I can now say that I had zero power-vacuum-brake issues on hte autocross course. So, I am pretty well set without an electric vac pump or going manual brakes. The $30 canister seems to have done just what I needed.

All in all, it was a roller-coaster weekend for me. Despite al my excessive preparations and planning, something totally bizarre can happen and throw everything into a frenzy. Glad that I was heading to a place full of hundreds and hundreds of racers and mechanically skilled people and I appreciate the help of Billy and Scott very much.

I don't think there is a need for me to post up any screen-shots of my tune files or datalogs like I usually do for drag racing. Unless someone wants me to.

I will post some photos I took of the other cars maybe tomorrow, and in a few days I will load some of the professional photos that UMI took.

I did have an issue with my dash-cam cutting out, and I think it is vibration related. I don't think it is from any type of harsh shocking vibration, but more like harmonics as it is windshield mounted. I am trying out a thicker padding now to see if it will insulate the camera better. So, basically I don't have very many videos to upload and share. Some dashcam files were corrupted or not available. I also was so wacked out on Day 1, that I never bothered to set up my GoPro camera either. It is what it is!

Day 1:

only run I have footage from is Run 7:
40.766 seconds
https://youtu.be/wa66a26XcJs

Day 2:

Run 1:
DNF !
https://youtu.be/mGFbT3VoStQ

Run 2:
42.731 seconds
https://youtu.be/g260dFochr8

Run 3:
40.917 seconds
https://youtu.be/MvGz4g_z0j0

Run 4:
41.408 seconds
https://youtu.be/Mj5LQDdPplI

Run 5:
40.978 seconds
https://youtu.be/skTRG2pLKpE

Run 6:
40.674 seconds
https://youtu.be/LxgicKcDruE

my best run from day 1 was 40.447 and from day 2 was 40.674. That number gets added together for your total time, and then thats how you stack up. UMI does classes by year of the car. So you could have a super highly modified car in the same class as a stock-ish street driver just because of the year of the car. Makes rankings weird, but that is how they do it. I finished 25th out of 43 in the Mid muscle class. I looked over the overall numbers and had to do a lot of adding positions of the classes together to find where I finished overall and I finished in 78th place out of 126 registered competitors. So about the 62nd percentile, which is not too shabby, especially due to the surprise circumstances I found myself in.

Scott:
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BTK:
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Me:
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RamblerRacer

07-31-2021, 07:00 AM

Great job keeping after it and salvaging the weekend. The car is slick.
I’d like to try some auto crossing myself after my TA is finished

JT

thehazguy

07-31-2021, 10:27 AM

Dave, nice update and pic's. You could of thrown in the towel but stuck with it. Now that's being a "Trooper" Keep the posts going, look forward to seeing what you're up to.

IROCZman15

08-09-2021, 08:59 PM

Thanks guys! I appreciate it.

I was able to buy an actual Holley Sniper Injector from one of the fellas on the Holley EFI forums for $40. He runs a performance shop out in Oregon and has a few snipers that have become "parts donors". He shipped me the injector, and I installed it in a matter of minutes. Test primed the injectors and all 4 sprayed. Loaded in a known good tune and the car ran just like it should. Issue solved, and hopefully staying solved. I will be hanging on to the O'Rileys FJ988 injector in case of another bizarre injector failure, but now I know where I can get sniper injectors should the need arise; I will probably buy one more from him to keep as a spare.

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51354473569_5970e11483_c.jpg

Had a bunch of conversations with Jegs over the past few months regarding the cracks in the front wheels (see photos/description back from around may 2021). As mentioned before, since I was not the original purchaser of the wheels, they couldn't help me out with a zero-cost replacement. They agreed that the cracks in the hubs were odd, and also that the machined surface of the hub was not true. I was offered a take-it-or-leave-it reduced price of $106 per wheel, so i decided to just go ahead and buy two new ones. Prior to this I did bring the wheels to the fabricator who built the roll bar and he said he could certainly fix them for me, but his work load is too heavy for a while and it would cost me more than $106 per wheel for him to fix. If I can ever get my Miller EconoTig welder to weld aluminum properly, I still might try to fix them one day if I am looking for oddball projects to do. Yet, for now, I will just peel the tires off the cracked wheels, have the tires mounted on the new wheels and put the cracked ones off to the side to be re-visited another day. Looks like Jegs (or whoever casts this wheel) has made some changes to the design over the years. The spokes are bigger and the triangle windows are bigger. There is less meat to the rim, and the hub area is also different too. Both wheels are 15"x4" but the design has changed. I think I like it better, but I will see what it looks like on the car with a tire.

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Took the afternoon on Saturday to do a clay, polish, sealer, wax job on the exterior paint and got het car looking mighty slick. Planned on going over to the TriCounty Car show over in Wayne on Sunday, but they canceled it due to iffy weather. Turned out to be a really nice weather day, but oh well.. another canceled event for me this season, seems to be a trend.

There is a MSNE autocross next week at MetLife Stadium and I think I am going to sign up. It is a Friday (usually MSNE is Sundays), but I am off on Fridays, so I think I will give it a go. IT might be my last autocross event of the year, as I did want to start getting nitrous stuff installed come September. So a very short autocross season was caused by Met Life canceling two events, and me having the car away at the roll-bar fabrication shop the entire month of June. It's ok, UMI was a general success and man, these tires are just killer!

oh, also, Motor Trend did an online article about the UMI event.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/umi-performance-autocross-challenge-coverage/
Pretty good gallery of action photos.
In my photo it was when I was heavy on the brakes just before going into the 180 degree left handed downhill turn in the afternoon of day 1.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51368766913_02c20e7c03_c.jpg

IROCZman15

08-22-2021, 04:03 PM

Took the car to the MSNE afternoon autocross at Met-Life arena parking lot J. Had given everything a thorough check over beforehand too. These events at Met-Life are far more stretched open and longer than the AutoCross events I have done at UMI, Warminster, and Optima (NJMP). They also run your run group in a hot-lap style, so there is only a few minutes of "down time" in between each run... really quick turn-around time. Basically 8 runs all within 1 hour's time. Was excited to put the new Falken tires to the test. Have found that the tires like to be between 32-33 psi up front and 28-29 psi in the rear, when the tires are hot. Have the Koni Adjustables set at 1/5 and 1/5 so on the softer side. This setup seems to work for me the best.

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https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51394793537_9e053dbb1a_c.jpg

I was learning the course and in the middle of my 3rd run, all of a sudden I felt the power steering give out on me. "Not this again" I thought, and finished the lap and went to check the system. Found that the cap had unlocked itself and Lucas PSF got all over inside the engine bay, even on the headers. Cleaned it up, and tried to put the cap back on, yet it would NOT click on and lock into place, it just free-spins ! WTF, ha. No matter what I knew I could not loose the cap, either making more laps, or on the ride home, so I freakin' duct-taped the cap onto the housing so it would not go tumbling away and be lost forever. I've been down the road of overheated power steering system before, in fact July of 2020 at a MSNE event. So I tried to cool off the power steering reservoir and the DeRale power system fluid cooler (installed summer 2020) and made another lap. Still, no power steering, but only at low rpms. At mid and mid-high rpms, its there. The pump doesn't whine or scream like the other blown up one did, but it does not power-assist at low rpms.

Took some experienced autocrossers for ride-alongs and also went for some spine-crushing, g-force pulling animal laps in their cars. That was a thrill. I did not hit any cones, but did spin the car out for a loop at the very very last turn of run #4. I only did 6 out of the 8 laps, because I sat out twice while trying to cool the psf system down. The trans temp, coolant temp, and everything else with the car/engine was in perfect working order. My holley efi "Learn table" was super good, and my efi tune was really spot on. The brakes, suspension, tires, all were awesome, but the lack of power steering definitely killed me. Drove the car home, in the rain, through construction on Rt 3 and 46 in Friday afternoon rush hour traffic, with an intermittently working power steering system! Jeez, that was no fun. made it home, cap was still held on by duct tape, but of course the system was not holding fluid properly.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51396290244_d448debe3c_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51396569250_6be8b717ea_c.jpg

Learn table after the total data from all 6 runs:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51395556586_c1d7586565_c.jpg

Event results:
https://axwaresystems.com/axorm/liveresults.php?op=finalresults&clubname=MotorSportsNE&op2=on&fbclid=IwAR3ndgt1y5ShxtXBodxcP0ddmTUNeISoEF9pIVI7K 53F2AtwuLkpI5qcZY0

I finished 3rd out of 5 in class D.
I went for rides with Irman Karamat and Ryan King, both of them are in the RACE tire class and have very purpose built autocross cars.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51394793417_11d37615aa_c.jpg

I have found that the GoPro video footage is better to watch from an autocross race style, as you can see my steering input and the course. My front/rear dash cam was up and running and shooting 4k video, but it just shows the course, and not really the amount of steering input or car's cornering. So I only included the short videos of the GoPro action.

Run 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1hTqK_Gu4Q

Run 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4Nojbpn0k

Run 3:
right at 0:43 seconds into the run you can see my arms on the steering wheel just get tight, this is when I felt the power steering system give out, right in the tight left turn and slowed way down as the car went way wide. I then had to muscle the car through the rest of the lap, and do the same for the remaining 3 runs that I did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbPvIsCiesM

Run 4:
spun out on the very last turn, didn't hit a cone, but it killed my time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C6GeExriHo

Run 5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFmr5WJPWeY

Run 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnbbG-P-xNI

The next day I took the car over to the quarry after I had put the sound system back in it because I wanted to get a new "street' weight of what this pig weighs in at when I am in full regular street mode, especially now that the roll bar install is completed. I was stunned and sad to see that it weighs 3,780 pounds with me in it, and 3,600 pounds without me. This is with a full tank of fuel, empty nitrous bottle, roll bar, full interior, sound system installed, and my 18" wheels. Yikes.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51394793492_10857ed18b_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51396569270_0613eee497_c.jpg

As for the power steering system/pump. Gotta figure out what to do, as I would prefer to NOT have to replace a ps pump every year. I know there are some performance options out there, but I will make this very clear, I have yet to find one that would look good under the hood. I do not want some mess of hoses, or a bare gen 2 style modern looking pump. Cosmetics and engine bay appearance is a big deal to me, and I will not sacrifice that just to have a better PS pump and reservoir. I already have an in-line DeRale PS fluid cooler, and it has not done me wrong at either UMI autocross or other autocross events... it seems to do the job. I think I need to find a way to better cool the fluid, even if it means a fan on a toggle switch or something. I have only used regular Lucas PSF, but I am not learning that there are superior "race" PS fluids out there too. I am hesitant to buy another gen1 style "teardrop looking" ps pump and reservoir, but so far it is the only one that looks good under my hood. Any thoughts?

-also, I had a spare PS cap(with dipstick) from my old pump and it locks onto the reservoir just fine, so the busted one is going in the trash, and I now have a sealed system, but still no power steering at low rpms.

I am switching back to drag racing for the fall as I had planned to do anyway. Will be getting the tires mounted on the new Jegs wheels next week. I am also going to begin the nitrous install in the coming weeks. I think I might be better off starting a new thread on that topic as opposed to detailing it on here.

IROCZman15

08-27-2021, 08:52 PM

Got the tires pulled from the old cracked jegs wheels, and put onto the new jegs wheels. I am digging the look!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51406134102_c2e2340c15_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51407150943_734f34ee0b_c.jpg

Got the replacement power steering pump delivered yesterday and installed it today real quick. I am not expecting the world of this thing, but it will allow me to street drive, drag race, and car show until the end of 2021 season. During the winter, I plan to send one of my old power steering pumps to Turn One so they can upgrade it to run at a higher pressure. Total cost for this pump was $89 delivered. It was ebay for $104, but it arrived with no chrome cap and the seller said they did not have any more caps to give me, so he took $15 off the price and he is refunding me $15. Luckily I had an old chrome cap in my parts stash, so I just used the old cap for this new pump!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51407935770_a8a47d3c49_c.jpg

Power steering pump madness:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51407935780_d18c890688_c.jpg

starting the nitrous setup install this weekend. That is all discussed in my other thread as it made more sense to keep the nitrous stuff a separate discussion:
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69274

IROCZman15

09-26-2021, 08:11 PM

I think that my detailed car update belongs in this thread and not in the nitrous thread because this is where I usually do my event/car recaps. The nitrous thread might get used specifically for nitrous system tuning and adjustments, but vehicle stuff I want to keep here.

So,

I street drove the car over to Island Dragway on Friday night for Test and Tune. Disclaimer, key words, test-and-tune.. that's all this was.. I was not going for any glory shots, but I did have some hopeful goals in mind for the test and tune session. I also told myself I did NOT care if I got a 30 second long reaction time today, i was simply going to leave when i was ready; reaction time was of zero importance. I had a few buddies who were there with me making some passes and a few other buddies who were there to spectate, so sometimes it was hectic in the pits. They only really ran cars for a few hours, as there were multiple long oil-down shut downs, and they closed the track about 10:20 pm instead of 11pm. I still got some good test hit in and drove the car home afterwards without any issues. Took the car to a local car show today, and I have been doing car shows the past 3 weekends also, bringing home some trophies, and putting several hundred miles on the car in the process. Very much enjoying all of it.

Pass 1:
All motor. Since I had not made any dragstrip passes since May 2021, I wanted to do an all motor pass just to get myself back into the routine of staging, launching, shifting, etc. The car is heavier now with the 6-point roll bar and harness setup. I am using the brand new Jegs SSR front skinny wheels which replaced my other cracked Jegs skinnies. Both weigh the same, but I just figured I would mention that these are the new wheels because there was some debate about the topic back in June on this thread. Front tire pressure was 48 and it stayed at 48psi8 all night long. Rear tire pressure was 21. Rear chocks were set at 3/5 setting , so medium, and front struts are a 90/10 lakewood drag shock which are not-adjustable. I am only launching off a foot-brake, no more 2-step limiter or anything, it messed up my afr readings/computer at the launch.
- I launched at 1660 rpm and the converter flashed at 3063 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6460 and dropped into 2nd at 4754rpms. Shifted 2-3 at 6476 rpms and dropped to 4846 rpms in 3rd gear. Carried 3rd gear across the finish line at 6265 rpms. Surprisingly, even with a heavier car, I ran an 11.84 at 115.5 mph, which is super close to my best runs from May 2021 which were were all around the 11.80 and 11.85 range. Also the 60 foot was right where it usually is, and the 8th mile a tad slow, but still in the ballpark. So that was cool and gave me confidence.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51521600453_3440df51d5_c.jpg
notes( their date/time is way off. The date is off by a week, and the time is off by an hour, and it was off by an hour all during the spring season also.. would have thought they would have fixed this?!?!) The time and date on the bottom corner of my video footage is exact and correct.

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51521600513_98e0373cc5_c.jpg

In car video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9JDggmGtw

Pass 2:
Had the 100 jets in the nitrous plate and I was ready to make a small PROGRESSIVE nitrous hit just to see that all systems were functioning properly. I had a slow ramp from 50hp-to-100 hp over the course of 2 seconds which I know is very uneventful. I have tested this on the street multiple times, but I wanted to do it at the track also. I launched the car at 1238 rpm and thats about all I have data for. For some undetermined reason, my datalog in nonsense (same for pass 3). The datapoints and data traces make no sense whatsoever. I did quickly hit the revv limiter at the top of 1st gear. I do know from memory that I did not spray until mid way though 2nd gear, so no nitrous in 1st gear. I then got off the nitrous for the 2-3 shift and back on it for most of 3rd gear. Therefore, my 60 foot, 330ft, and 8th mile are all N/A and my timeslip reflects that when compared to other N/A runs. My top end of the track shows improvement and I could feel the nitrous doing its job but I also felt it shut off when it reached the high-side rpm limits that I setup, so I got off the throttle just before the finish line, knowing that the solenoids and whatnot were flowing etc. Checked 3 spark plugs after this run and timing marks were good, no metal glitter on the ceramic, all looked good.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51520561312_b57f0df12c_c.jpg

Datalog NONSENSE:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51522282190_8ac6709cf5_c.jpg[/url]

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnbZx47ZbWo

Launch video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glI6mxj4k-U

Pass 3: With the datalog from Pass2 being useless, yet knowing the fuel/nitrous/ecu was doing its job properly, I decided to change from a progressive shot to a fixed 100 shot. I also lowered the rear tire pressure to 19 psi, but kept the rear shocks set the same at 3/5. The datalog is totally useless here, and I will be working with the Holley EFI forum guys to figure out if it's some wacky setting, or something I need to fix myself. I did not spray nitrous at all until the middle of 2nd gear ( you can hear it in the video) so therefore my 60 foot and 330 are N/A but then the 8th mile time/speed starts to get better. I got off the button for the 2-3 shift but then right back on the button in 3rd. Again, my high-side limit rpm limiter for the nitrous killed the nitrous at 6,100, so I was N/A from basically the 1,100 foot mare to the finish. You can clearly hear the engine pitch change when the nitrous deactivates and it sounds like its breaking up. This is exactly because as one of my safety parameters, I have the ecu delaying the timing 4 degrees (while the nitrous is on) AND for .5 seconds after the nitrous is deactivated. So its a safety feature, but I might shorten it up for next time, because the motor is not making good power 30 degrees in WOT when it has 200+ more feet to go before the finish line. SO, this is something i could not plan for while doing the tune, I had to have it happen in real life in order to find it out. I have a solution for all of this which I will elaborate on at the bottom of the page.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51522282155_90fe6e08ec_c.jpg[/url]

Datalog: what an insane looking datalog for a dragstrip pass!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51520561362_41708d8645_c.jpg

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxlu5_pJ9oc

Launch video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyU7Bt2UToc

Pass 4:
used the same exact tune, same shock settings, and dropped the rear tires to 17.4psi at the advice of my buddies. Had a proper datalog this time too!
They were calling "15 minutes until staging lanes are closed" as I was getting to the lanes.
Launched at 1,753 rpms (footbrake) and the converter flashed at 2,986. Nitrous came on at 3,500 in 1st gear and stayed on until 5,791 rpms in 1st gear. Shifted from 1st to 2nd at 6,571 rpms and it dropped to 5,020 rpms in 2nd gear. Nitrous was on the 100 shot all through 2nd gear, which I shifted out of at 6,585 and this dropped it to 5,082 rpms in 3rd gear. Nitrous was on all of 3rd gear until it hit my (newly increased) high side limit of 6,300 rpms where it shut off and I was N/A until the finish line at 6,597 rpms....with only 30 deg of timing for .5 seconds ...instead of my usual 34 deg N/A. Youc an hear it "break up" a few hundred feet before the finish line, but thats for the same reasons I listed above at the end of pass 3. This is why MPH is lower than it should be.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51521374566_66ff243eed_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51522081234_41fae2ffec_c.jpg

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQ_V7aEEK0

Pass 5:

I had no time to look at the datalog or check plugs after this run. They were calling 5 minutes to staging lanes are closed as I was getting my timeslip. (look at the time difference between slips #4 and #5, and even though he hours are wrong, the minutes are right!) My buddies were all jacked up and said, you gotta get a 10 second pass tonight, so I did the only thing I had time for, and did a super quick nitrous jet change, from the 100 shot to the 125 shot jets. Pulled into the staging lanes and they are waving me to the burnout box yet I didn't have my helmet on or harness bucked yet! Slammed on my helmet and I was the last car to make a pass in the Race-tire lanes.

So, I did a healthy burnout and foot brake launched at 1709 with the nitrous button down. My low-side limit wont allow the nitrous to kick on until 3,500 rpms, and after the converter flashed (around 2860 rpms) I felt the nitrous come on. It shut off at my high side limit before I shifted out of first (at 6,502 rpms) and into 2nd where it landed at 5,208 rpms). sprayed all through 2nd gear until it clicked the nitrous off and I shifted 2-3 at 6,458 rpms and it dropepd to 5,175 rpms in 3rd gear. Sprayed all through 3rd until it reached the high side limit so it clicked off at 6,346 rpms and I muddled my way the last few hundred feet to the finish line, crossing at 6,456 rpms, with a freaking 10.99 at 122.5 mph!! WHAT IN THE HECK!!!

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51520561342_578f87852b_c.jpg
(they had problems with their 60-foot cone so they turned it off. Some of my buddies also had .000 on their timeslip for the 60-foot but I would have love to know what it was. I am thinking like a 1.54, but without actual timeslip, I am just guessing)

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51522081224_05a7daa84e_c.jpg

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffHSSKLSEMY

Full video with my reaction after reading the slip at 2:14 in the video. ha (and you can hear the announcer still calling "lanes are closed" at around 2:01 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxibcE8AEos

Took a while to chat with my buddies and packed up the car. All my gear was super wet from the fog and moisture/humidity. Drove the car home with a huge smile that things seemed to be working properly. Brought he car to the local quarry to weigh it in drag-race mode as compared to street mode. It weight in at 3,420 pounds without me in it and 3,600 pounds with me in it, yet only half a tank of fuel. So that is its race weight for the rest of this year. Would like to get it lighter over the winter, but WITHOUT compromising street, show, or autocross purposes.

Without me:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51521374506_077ed830b1_c.jpg

With me in it:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51521600468_ef5491cb63_c.jpg

So, All in all, a pretty successful first nitrous TEST-and-TUNE session. My bottle heater did its job perfectly too. I have a few ideas for how to not just "coast" through the last 200 feet of the track, and one of them involves taller tires. I know I will certainly Do this for my next set of tires, but I won't be due for new tires until spring of next year. So, I am thinking, I might play around with getting on the nitrous sooner, and holding it through the shifts, which will put me at the top of 3rd gear just before the 1000 foot mark. And, while it sucks to have a 4th gear that is less than 1:1 ratio (in this 700R4), I can then shift into 4th gear and spray 4th gear for the last few hundred feet. It would be better than what I am doing now. Yet, there was no way for me to mathematically figure this out, until I physically made some passes. I also want to see if I can hit the nitrous out of the hole as I launch, instead of waiting for it to come on mid-way through 1st gear. Might really improve my 60 foot times, get me a wheels up launch, and I would like to see if my suspension takes it. As it is now, from the launch videos, it looks like I could crank the right rear shock a bit tighter to a 4/5 and leave the drivers side a 3/5. There is also air-bags for the springs too as an inexpensive technique, but that's only if I do have launch issues while launching on the button. I also WILL be throwing a bigger nitrous shot at it in the coming weeks, so there is no doubt in my mind that I will have to shift into 4th gear. I'm thinking the car has the potential for a 10.75 pass around 129 mph before the year is over on a bigger shot.

sweetbmxrider

09-27-2021, 06:33 AM

Nice, Dave! Congrats!

IROCZman15

09-27-2021, 06:17 PM

thanks man. was fun.
Didn't actually expect I'd get into the 10's before that night, probably could have been more patient, but in the heat of the moment, it all worked out. To me, it's only "kinda" a 10, but I'd truthfully like a few more high 10 second passes to "back it up" and run a bit quicker. Will be going back for more improvements and test hits; probably Friday night October 8th at Island

thehazguy

09-27-2021, 08:35 PM

Dave, as stated in our text messages. Congrats. Worked on your plan and it panned out. "SWEET" Nice video on the 10.99 run. I'll try to make it on 10/08/21 with the 57.

:nod:

Blackbirdws6

09-29-2021, 09:35 AM

Congrats!! Not expecting 10s and seeing the slip must have been a fun experience. The MPH gain from the shot with it coming on/off the nitrous through the gears def suggests it will go quicker.

IROCZman15

10-10-2021, 04:32 PM

Went to Island Dragway on Friday night for Test and Tune, along with Jerry who was running his 57 Chevy. We had a good time; early on the track needed to come around a bit, but after that, things went pretty well. Glad to have helpful advice from Jerry with all his wisdom, thank you dude! Before arriving at the track, I stopped to visit with Larry and Chris at 2nd Gen Engineering and we chatted for a bit as well. Good times!

Front struts are non-adjustable 90/10 Lakewood's and the rear Koni shocks I set at 3/5 drivers side and I tried 4/5 on the passenger side. Front tires were at 48 psi all night and the rear tires were between 18.0 and 18.4 psi all night long. Still suffering from the nervous jitters with the nitrous and even sometimes forgetting to hold the damn button down during the whole pass. That I hope to change, and hopefully soon! The moisture content was high all night, humidity in the 89%-91% according to my app. The DA was about 1200 at the start of the night and right about 1,000 at my last run, again according to my app, which is less reputable than most.
-on all nitrous passes I had the nitrous set to come on at 3,000 rpms. I might lower this to come on directly when I do launch because its almost feeling like I have a "double launch" sensation.
- I use the same timing numbers for my 100 and 125 nitrous shots, so I actually use the same tune file. so even though it says F125 on the page, I use that same file for a fixed 100 shot.. same goes for the progressive shots. I am pulling 4.5 degrees of timing for both a 125 and 100 shot. So it is at 29.5 deg on nitrous, and 34 deg on motor.

Pass 1:
All motor, no nitrous. Did a very short burnout because I forgot to pump the brakes hard before activating the line lock, so about 1 second into the burnout it pushed through the brakes and darted me forward. The track starter motioned that I could do another one (and I should have) but I told him no and staged. Foot brake launch at 1475 rpms and it instantly spun. Pedaled it, short shifted 1-2 at 5400 rpms, and then short shifted 2-3 shift at 5,421 rpms, crossed the line at 6177 rpms like a total goofball and it ran 12.23 at 113. The top green line is my Throttle position sensor, so you can see I was not at full throttle most of 1st gear and all of 2nd gear.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51574515724_d8f7858497_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51574514444_e77585b377_c.jpg

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U560xdwQQiU

Pass 2:
Hoping to redeem myself from the above nonsense, I decided to do a progressive-ramp 100 shot. After a proper 7 second burnout, I footbraked the launch at 1580 rpms and then the ramp came in at 3,000 rpms. The 1.52 sixty foot felt real good! The green line in the datalog thats across the middle of the page, you can see the timing ramp before it goes flat. When it is flat I am on the nitrous, when the line goes upwards and then flat and then downwards, those are moments I am off the nitrous. As you cans ee I was off the nitrous between the 1-2 shift, the 2-3 shift and again (twice) at the top of third gear. Anyways, I shifted 1-2 at 6,700 rpms, 2-3 at 6,230 rpms, and crossed the finish line at 6515 (of the nitrous). Same as last TnT event, I am out of rpms at the top of 3rd gear (more info on that later), but thats why you hear the engine "lay over" about 200 feet from the finish line.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51573022817_b505f01356_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51574514284_38c215652b_c.jpg

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxxjR17KXVo

Pass 3:
Changed from a progressive 100 shot to a fixed 100 shot. Did a 6 second burnout and footbraked the launch from 2,002 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6,706 rpms, 2-3 at 6,417 rpms, and across the line at 6,536 rpms. Again, not on the nitrous with 200 feet left before the finish line.. out of rpms. I was on the button the whole time and the only time the nitrous turned off is when it hit the "high rpm limit" at the top of 1st gear and also at the top of 3rd gear. I did notice (and can be seen in the log also) that I had less footage between where I was and the finish line when the nitrous went off at the top of third. food for thought!

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51574513444_340be6e09e_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51573021342_ea64ed51fe_c.jpg

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqhbmUODOMQ

Pass 4:
I decided I was ready to change from a 100 shot to a 125 shot, so I did. Did a 7 second burnout and footbrake launched from 1693 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6,782 and 2-3 at 6486 rpms which put me crossing the line at 6477 rpms. I know the nitrous clicked off at the top of first gear, and it appears that I got off the button while shifting from 2-3..and didn't get back on the button for over 2 seconds.. .until I was mid way through 3rd gear! ugh, you can hear it in the video too.

Timeslip:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51574073668_8eb0ae1fe0_c.jpg

Datalog:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51573021217_4545f5c40b_c.jpg

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf0lhM3OumI

continued below...