build a motor Vs a crate motor

[NightRydaSS]

Is it cheaper to just buy a fully built crate motor or to re-build one using ur stock block?

My LS1 SS has 84K miles on it, and im thinkin about future mods. I would like to put L92 heads, Intake, and cam in it. i would also like to stroke it (either 383 or 402 CI). SLP sells their ZL402 CI motor for $8.5K, and minus the tune for the PCM, it is a "turn key" motor they say.

Pricing out the rotating assembly, heads, cam, intake, machine shop for the block, and the labor to install it; it is cheaper to just buy the crate?

the thing is i'd hate to waste a perfectly good (to my knowledge anyway) block. Or is it; i do have piston slap (not too bad tho), so i would magine i have some clyinder scratches, but machining them to fit the stroke should clean that up, right?

i was also thinking about throwing a prochagrer on it instead of stroking it, but i would still have to have my motor re-built to handle the power so i wouldnt think it would be any cheaper.

This wont happen for a couple yrs (im buyin a beater this summer), but I'm just tryin to price some things at so i kno where i could be at.

what do ppl norm do?

[Pampered-Z]

Myself I would not buy a performance create motor, but I want things done my way, or at least have the engine builder tell me what they know is better. Over the years I've dealt with a few different builders, I always found that when you talk to them you learn allot about how they work and what you can expect from them. The builders that gave me what I expected, I became a repeat customer and never hesitated to recommend them to others. Those that didn't never seen me again! You really don't know any of this from a create.

If you do look at the create motor, you really need to price out exactly what parts are in the create motor compared to what you would install if you picked all the peices yourself, and base that on what you want from the engine as far as HP. Not all strokers are created equal. Say a 400 HP stroker may not have the same parts as a 600HP stroker. Likewise when you have an engine built you can get what you want done and talking to the builder is always a big plus as they can make good recommendations or tell you what they do that could be better. With a create motor you get what they ship you.

Also, what year is your engine? My knowledge of LS1 engines is a bit limited, but I understand the 1998-99 blocks are not equal to the 2000+ plus blocks. So if your looking for around 500 HP and you have a 98-99 then you might want to just look at a replacement.

[NJSPEEDER]

the nice thing you have with a crate motor vs doing your own assembly of all or part of the engine is having someone accountable if there is a problem. not that there aren't inconsistances or problems with crate motors, just that a crate motor from a specialty company like SLP will have a lower chance of a problem and you already know what kind of power to expect.
another nice thing about a crate motor is the time it saves. having to order and wait for everything takes weeks and sometimes months. compare that to a crate motor you can have at your door with in a few days of buying it.
you may want to ask some of the other shops in the area what they charge for a complete engine too. places like harris speed works, ttp, and js performance
are all in the general area and also have the ability to prepare a complete motor for you.

[Batman]

Keep in mind you can only botr an LS1 .010" over, then it is re-sleeve time. I would suggest getting an LS2 shortblock (stock or 402) then decide what top end you want, just make sure you get the right pistons.

[NightRydaSS]

- To answer your question Pampered-Z, it is an 01' LS1
- What exactly is "re-sleeving"? Is that something i should avoid?
- NJSPeeder; yea i was thinkin about that too, i know JSPerformance is on here, i wonder if he read this post b/c i like to hear his $.02.

i was just thinking: i kno the stroker kit is about $2.5K- $3K, the L92 "top end package" is between $1.5K - $2.5K. Then i'm thinking installation labor, machine shop labor. I also thinking about how good my current block is b/c i do have some piston slap and it has 84K miles on it as of now. The new crate is $8.5K, tested and with a warrenty...so i dunno...

Im not tryin to build a race motor, i just want somthing that can keep up w/ a Z06 and with the next Gen of Camaro's. It will see some track time. I love my car, and dont plan to ever get rid of it, so i want to make sure it can keep up with new sports cars and make it hella fun to drive and sound like a mean bitch!

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NightRydaSS

- To answer your question Pampered-Z, it is an 01' LS1
- What exactly is "re-sleeving"? Is that something i should avoid?
- NJSPeeder; yea i was thinkin about that too, i know JSPerformance is on here, i wonder if he read this post b/c i like to hear his $.02.

i was just thinking: i kno the stroker kit is about $2.5K- $3K, the L92 "top end package" is between $1.5K - $2.5K. Then i'm thinking installation labor, machine shop labor. I also thinking about how good my current block is b/c i do have some piston slap and it has 84K miles on it as of now. The new crate is $8.5K, tested and with a warrenty...so i dunno...

Im not tryin to build a race motor, i just want somthing that can keep up w/ a Z06 and with the next Gen of Camaro's. It will see some track time. I love my car, and dont plan to ever get rid of it, so i want to make sure it can keep up with new sports cars and make it hella fun to drive and sound like a mean bitch!

Most aluminum blocks have steel sleeves in every cylinder to provide longevity. That way the piston rings don't ride on aluminum, etc. If you do decide on a crate motor, I have one major piece of advice for you: Read every single line of the warranty. People have false impressions of what is covered and what is not covered, and how to make a claim. Do NOT assume that if you break something that it will be repaired for free.

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Most aluminum blocks have steel sleeves in every cylinder to provide longevity. That way the piston rings don't ride on aluminum, etc. If you do decide on a crate motor, I have one major piece of advice for you: Read every single line of the warranty. People have false impressions of what is covered and what is not covered, and how to make a claim. Do NOT assume that if you break something that it will be repaired for free.

i guess that makes sense about the sleeves.

i'm, just thinkin that w/ a crate, all the parts were choosen b/c they kno they will work together. i dont have to worry about choosing parts that really dont match.

I just think that if building a motor ala-cart using my stock block is going to be the same price as buying a new crate motor with NO miles on it that was tested and has a "warranty", im better off doin that.

I kno if anyone knew what to do, you guys would.

what do ppl who dont want a full out race motor do? what is "cheaper" and a better way to spend money?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NightRydaSS

what do ppl who dont want a full out race motor do? what is "cheaper" and a better way to spend money?

They do both. You can have a motor built to your specs or you can buy a crate competition engine from somebody like Musi or Shaffiroff.

[V]

in my case, i bought a GM crate service engine, and then installed some performance components myself, like camshaft, valvesprings, ported oil pump, arp rod bolts, etc. i wasnt concerned with a warranty though

[Pampered-Z]

Originally Posted by NightRydaSS

what do ppl who dont want a full out race motor do? what is "cheaper" and a better way to spend money?

well, this is a bit of a lame answer, but just to give you something to think about. I'd say you can fairly easily build a low 12 second car with a heads/cam package and gear change. Hopefully BATMAN can jump back in here. Nick has built a few different LS1 motors and can give you real experience about some different combinations and how the car reacted on the street and strip. Don't forgert you need to support those mods too. Fuel system, suspension etc.

My engine falls between a race/street motor I'd say. The smallish cam give the car good street manners, but once the RPMs go above 3,000 and boost builds the engine completely changes. I have to "tip toe" around town keeping the RPMs in the safe zone, but the car drives fine on the highway. I do however have poor gas mileage! A bigger cam would make more power buy I don't think I could cruise with the car?

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by Pampered-Z

well, this is a bit of a lame answer, but just to give you something to think about. I'd say you can fairly easily build a low 12 second car with a heads/cam package and gear change. Hopefully BATMAN can jump back in here. Nick has built a few different LS1 motors and can give you real experience about some different combinations and how the car reacted on the street and strip. Don't forgert you need to support those mods too. Fuel system, suspension etc.

My engine falls between a race/street motor I'd say. The smallish cam give the car good street manners, but once the RPMs go above 3,000 and boost builds the engine completely changes. I have to "tip toe" around town keeping the RPMs in the safe zone, but the car drives fine on the highway. I do however have poor gas mileage! A bigger cam would make more power buy I don't think I could cruise with the car?

hmmm, i guess what ur sayin is: If you looking for a street/strip car (to compete) it is better to build what u want, and to buy a crate if your looking for street/mild strip not to compete? that is what it sounds like u meant/did for yourself.

Im just looking for the best bang for the buck. It doesn't sound like one way is cheaper then the other; just that one way (building it) gives you more options to get exactly what ur looking for.

I was thinking about SC'in it, but if i went with the ZL402 i think that would be over kill since i dont want to make it into a full blown race car. I dont want to go so far overboard i can drive it around anymore. I think a "stock" LS1 dyno'ed on HotRod TV w/ a procharger at 500+ rwhp. I think GMHighPerformance Mag dyno's a ZL402 at around 427rwhp.

I'm just tryin to advoid headachs; BATMAN if you read this, chime in.

[jwscab]

you just have to weigh your options vs how much you want to spend. Keep in mind that what you mentioned won't work, as the L92 heads require a 4.00" bore, so you are stuck moving to at least a 6.0 block.

you also have to determine how much power you want to put out. If you are only looking for 450-500HP, the stock bottom end is perfectly fine, you might consider getting a set of 243 heads and a camshaft, and you are there (in reality, this ls series can handle more power than that, but people like the secruity blanket of heavier duty parts). It will be defintely cheaper, since you probably only need minor machinist cleanup on everything, vs buying a new stroker crank and etc etc. You'd probably get new pistons (if you need a bore.), but otherwise, it's just soft parts (seals, rings, bearings), so it will be cheaper component wise, might be pricier if you don't do the work yourself, but it still will work out cheaper than a crate.

if you are looking for stupid levels of power, a pre assembled crate is a good idea, since you probably would be replacing everything anyway.

[NightRydaSS]

Originally Posted by jwscab

you just have to weigh your options vs how much you want to spend. Keep in mind that what you mentioned won't work, as the L92 heads require a 4.00" bore, so you are stuck moving to at least a 6.0 block.

you also have to determine how much power you want to put out. If you are only looking for 450-500HP, the stock bottom end is perfectly fine, you might consider getting a set of 243 heads and a camshaft, and you are there (in reality, this ls series can handle more power than that, but people like the secruity blanket of heavier duty parts). It will be defintely cheaper, since you probably only need minor machinist cleanup on everything, vs buying a new stroker crank and etc etc. You'd probably get new pistons (if you need a bore.), but otherwise, it's just soft parts (seals, rings, bearings), so it will be cheaper component wise, might be pricier if you don't do the work yourself, but it still will work out cheaper than a crate.

if you are looking for stupid levels of power, a pre assembled crate is a good idea, since you probably would be replacing everything anyway.

so i CAN'T put L92 heads on my stock LS1 block, I'd have to bore it out?

[jwscab]

well, the valve centerlines were spread out, so I guess you could make it work if you bought bare ones and used smaller valves(if the seats are small enough, but thats negating the cheap aspect, not to mention, the wrong direction for performance.

I don't think an overbore will help on the ls1 block. need to go .100" over so that means a new sleeve if that's even possible.

[NightRydaSS]

hmm, didn't kno that. maybe i should go with some nice heads and cam (like u said), re-build my bottom end (forged parts, still keeping it 350ci), and throw on a procharger.

i dont want crazy power, i want this car to be streetable and what-not. Im thinking no more then 500hp, i also dont want to have to sell my soul to satan to be able to afford it.

bascially i dont want to get blown away by a Z06 or the new generation of camaro. I love my car, and im not crazy about all the new electronics they are throwing into the new cars, or the fact that they are ass over heals expensive. I just want to give it a lil more "emph" so im right on their asses.

Also...i know we all knock ricers on here, but i have seen some real ricer cars that are nasty...my point is i dont EVER want to experience getting my ass handed to be by a civic, i dont care if it does sounds like a jet plane, it is still a civic... u kno?

idk, i guess ill just have to weight it out when the time comes...

[NJSPEEDER]

500hp with a LSx motor can be done with stock parts easily and it will stay together for a long time. there really isn't any reason to go buying forged stuff unless you plan to put together something with lots of boost, spray, or high compression.
saying you want to beat a Z06 isn't a very specific goal. do you want to beat one with an average driver behind the wheel? that is a mid 12 second car. maybe one with a good driver? that is a mid 11 second car. that is a broad range to think of. it would be better to arrange the build up of your whole car around a specific goal, something with measurable performance marks to reach. jsut saying you want to beat a specific car is meaningless when you consider the effect that the driver mod has on the outcome.
there is no reason to worry about electronics either. they are really the best tool you can have in a car. any time tuning is needed the answer is right there in front of you, no need for guessing or hunting, just plug in the lap top and it will tell you whats up.

[NightRydaSS]

how much boost can the bottom end of a "stock" LS1 realistically handle with out going into orbit? I mean "reliably"; like i dont want to drive 500 miles and go boom. I want something i can cruz around in.

[jwscab]

your best bet is to do some research. Ls1tech.com has a huge archive of, well...ls1 tech. use it to your advantage to check out what people have been pushing through these blocks. For sure though, I doubt you are looking for more than the limit of what the stock stuff can do.

head/cam easy to what you want.....for more power, just put some forced induction on it. especially if you want more daily driver than race car.