Steroids and Baseball

[98tadriver]

Originally Posted by Squirrel

I agree, its part of the sports world... Nothin in this world is pure, why should sports?
Does anyone talk about tiger woods getting laser eye surgery? He now has better than 'perfect' vision, is that cheating?

so youve watched "Bigger Stronger Faster" too? lol i was gonna say the same thing

i suggest other people watch it too. It will clear up alot of myths and misconceptions about steroids and related things out there. its not a one sided movie either

[NJSPEEDER]

I just see it as a simple truth that everyone who participates in anything competitive is gonna look for any advantage they can. Most people will do it with in the rules, someone will always cheat.

I see having a glass of scotch before a game the same as using steroids because it can improve an individuals performance. Maybe one guy needs to calm his nerves a bit to play where as another needs to be a bit stronger. Either way it is using a chemical to improve your performance.

The truth is that steroids weren't against the rules of baseball at the time all of these tests were taken and failed. Even better than that, most of the forms of steroids that have been popular in sports for decades haven't been actually illegal until the last few years. So these guys weren't even actually breakin a law in many cases.

Look at someone like Mark McGuire who's first big "steroid" accusation was because he has a bottle of perfectly legal, over the counter, androdestinedion(sp?) in his locker. It's not a steroid, it is an agent to promote muscle flexibility and help keep muscles hydrated for better post work out recovery. I know this because I worked at Vitamin World in college and we sold it, by the case, dozens of bottles a day. What is really wrong with it? Long term use is linked to liver problems, it said so on the bottle.

It just baffles me that rules can be retroactively made up because someone wants to make a story of things that happened 6-10 years ago. It wasn't against the rules at the time, in most cases the congressional investigation is following up on a non-crime, and there is no benefit to the general public.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

I see having a glass of scotch before a game the same as using steroids because it can improve an individuals performance.

Really? Under what context would a competition be untainted then? What about gatorade vs water?

[MonmouthCtyAntz]

LoL, not saying you but most of the guys that work at vitamin shops/ gnc's dont know jack except for what they read in flex magazine or the bottle....and it sounds like your talking about creatine, that keeps water in your muscles not andro. Andro was suppose to naturally raise your test. levels, and for what they charged for that crap it would probably be cheaper to go out and get the real thing. Ive been out of it for a few years but I starting working out at 16. I trained under Rich Gaspari for a few years and work in his gym for about 5 so I know a little about it . Regardless if the MLB had any ruling on paper about it is still Illegal in the United States.

[Frosty]

Baseballs is a joke, the commish is a joke, I love how they went after JC Romero for having a GNC supplement that as NOT on MLB's banned substance list. He's suspended for 50 some games...the league said they will not entertain the idea of lessening the suspension.

Here's my take on this situation. If a player knowingly takes a banned substance they should be kicked out of baseball, PERIOD. If players took enhancing drugs before they were banned then so be it, I see no harm in that. It's competitive sports and everyone is striving to be the best...if that means having to take some pills then that's what you have to do.

If a player is caught taking a banned substance their stats should be stricken from the record books, they should be kicked out of the league. It just seems like there's no real consequence. A good friend of mine is a CCRN, if he fails a drug test he loses his job and the state of PA will strip him of his CCRN license, PERIOD.

I think MLB is just a joke, I'm a baseball fan but I'd love nothing more than to see the league collapse.

[98tadriver]

if you ask me, its not cheating. you cant just take something and expect to break records without training hard. you can fill yourself up with all kinds of test boosters and other supplements, but it will not do you any good if you dont train. people dont seem to realize that. taking these things doesnt automatically make u a better athlete. you have to train and practice just as hard, if not harder to see any kind of results

[Frosty]

Ron, I don't think anyone is staying these drugs take the place of training. Unless I missed it in this thread I don't think anyone here has said it.

We can debate whether performance enhancing drugs should be banned or not but for now there are certain drugs that are illegal. If a player is caught using them then the punishment should be swift and severe. If a player used them prior to them being added to a banned list then I don't see how a player should get into any trouble.

[BonzoHansen]

I hate A-Rod, but I think he is getting the shaft here. I have since this broke last weekend. Who leaked this? What is in it for them? Why not the whole list. It all stinks. To be honest leave the guy alone, I mean I do not care where he goes on vacation or if he is dating Methuselah, oops, I mean Madonna. Enough already.

I also think the MLB Players Union screwed up royally and that may be the bigger story in the long run.

Here, article in today’s WSJ, I added some notes & some highlighting

For A-Rod, Placebos Might've Worked Better

Which moment of President Obama's Monday press conference on the stimulus package was more stupefying: that a Washington Post correspondent asked what the president thought about Alex Rodriguez's admission that he had used steroids or that the president replied? For the record, President Obama said he was depressed by the revelation -- aren't we all? It's fortunate for our national well being that Britney Spears wasn't also having a bad week. (I couldn’t believe that idiot asked BO that)

From the maelstrom of words in the wake of Saturday's Sports Illustrated story (by Selena Roberts and David Epstein) that in 2003 Alex Rodriguez tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs, a few significant facts have finally emerged.

Mr. Rodriguez has admitted using Primobolan and testosterone from 2001 to 2003; no penalty was attached to the use of such substances before the Basic Agreement between the players and Major League Baseball went into effect in 2004. Primobolan is not a prescription drug, and legal penalties for its use range from minimal to nonexistent; testosterone is a legal prescription drug.

Though both steroids are popular among athletes, it isn't certain what effect, if any, they have on performance in baseball. "It's almost impossible to say," says Will Carroll, author of "The Juice: The Real Story of Baseball's Drug Problems." "The main reason for baseball players to take PEDs is to increase power, but hitting a baseball has so much to do with hand-eye coordination, and there's no clear indication that testosterone and Primobolan help you hit a baseball better."

Mr. Rodriguez's entry in the record books tends to support this. From 1998 to 2000, while playing for the Seattle Mariners, he hit just 51 home runs in his two home ball parks (the Mariners moved in July 1999) and 74 home runs on the road. As ESPN.com's Rob Neyer notes, statistics generated on the road are "usually considered a more genuine measure of a hitter's power, as a single ball park might inflate or deflate home run totals." From 2001 to 2003, after being traded to the Texas Rangers and playing his home games at The Ballpark at Arlington, Texas -- regarded as a hitter's park -- he hit 86 home runs at home and 70 on the road.

If the PEDs A-Rod took increased his power in his home park, one wonders why they did nothing to improve his power in other American League stadiums.

That, of course, is not the issue the media seem to be addressing. The main issue is . . . Well, since baseball had no penalty at the time Mr. Rodriguez used the drugs and there is no evidence that they improved his performance, what is the major issue? According to Marvin Miller, former head and founder of the Major League Baseball Players Association, "There is a major issue, one which virtually no one has mentioned, namely Alex Rodriguez's civil rights."

Mr. Miller was referring to the leaking of information from the test results. In 2003, the union and MLB agreed to anonymous testing of 1,198 players to determine the extent of drug use in the sport. It was agreed that if 5% of the players tested positive, then random testing would be implemented in 2004. The linchpin of the agreement was that the names of the players who tested positive would not be revealed to the teams or the athletes. When results indicated that 104 players had used some type of PED -- at least 104 is the number now being given, though it has not been confirmed, nor were the samples retested to make sure the initial findings were accurate -- the agreement for random drug testing was activated.

On Nov. 19, 2003, only six days after the testing was finalized, a grand jury subpoena requested by federal agents investigating the Balco steroids scandal was issued for the actual test samples, which were at a lab in Long Beach, Calif. The union requested that government lawyers withdraw the subpoena for all the 2003 test results. And when they refused, the union filed papers asking for clarification on what the government was entitled to. The next day, however, all samples were seized, not just samples from the 10 players associated with the Balco investigation.

In April 2004, both the baseball commissioner's office and the players union were dismayed to receive a report from federal officials that listed the names of the 104 players believed to have tested positive. How could that have happened if the tests were anonymous? Apparently, says a source connected with the union, the lab's code was cracked and the samples were identified.

Fast forward to this past Saturday, when the SI story was released. We're now left with three major unanswered questions: Who made the leak, why did they leak it, and why was Alex Rodriguez's name the only one leaked?

No one can be sure why A-Rod's was the only name mentioned, but as baseball's most highly paid and publicized player, and the only player to be publicly linked with Madonna, outing him would have generated the most publicity.

As to who did it and why, there's a very short list of candidates, says Mr. Miller. "MLB, the union and the federal investigators all have the information, and if the first two had anything to gain by revealing a name on the list, I can't imagine what that would be."

Meanwhile, after more than five years of litigation, the union's lawsuit to recover the 2003 test results is pending in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit and might end in the Supreme Court. And at least 103 other players will be having some uneasy nights.

[Jersey_TA]

The greatest baseball players in history never needed steriods way back when baseball started....why do they need them now???? They should play baseball for the love of the game......not the freaking paycheck. If you love the game you shouldn't need anything other than your heart to play.

[Frosty]

If I didn't have muscular dystrophy and could pick whatever career I wanted I'd be a hockey player...why? Because I love the sport...however if I could make $8 million/year compared the $250K/year I'd also be playing for the money, wouldn't you?

[ta350]

Originally Posted by 98tadriver

so youve watched "Bigger Stronger Faster" too? lol i was gonna say the same thing

i suggest other people watch it too. It will clear up alot of myths and misconceptions about steroids and related things out there. its not a one sided movie either

Word. That Documentary is unbiased and right to the point.

[CamaroJoe1987]

i personally dont give a **** about the steriod use, that just basically means they are too pussy to actually work hard

[Mike]

Originally Posted by CamaroJoe1987

i personally dont give a **** about the steriod use, that just basically means they are too pussy to actually work hard

you have to work just as hard on steroids as off, or you end up as a waterlogged blob

[ta350]

Originally Posted by CamaroJoe1987

i personally dont give a **** about the steriod use, that just basically means they are too pussy to actually work hard

People that use steroids work much harder than people not on them. If you use steroids and just work out normal your not gonna see the desired results... you'll put on more body fat than anything, unless you have a clean diet, work out harder than most people, and get the proper amount of rest. A few of my friends are BBs (Body Builders) and they are the most dedicated and mind set people. Theres no such thing as roid rage either, these guys wouldnt hurt a fly.

[madness410]

well i know some athletes dont use steroids to bulk up or be stronger, some use them to recover quicker, like UFC fighters. maybe some athletes in the mlb use them for that purpose also.

[bubba428]

didn't read the whole thing so if somebody else said it...O WELL

who cares? they'll hit/throw the ball harder put on a better show...if they want to trade being retarded strong for having a big attitude and tiny balls thats they're problem

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by ta350

Theres no such thing as roid rage either, these guys wouldnt hurt a fly.

Maybe with them but I know people that were taking steroids while working out and they were loose cannons.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Maybe with them but I know people that were taking steroids while working out and they were loose cannons.

Yeah, same here. Testosterone levels way too high.

[BonzoHansen]

Maybe steroids are like some recreational drugs or booze and it just magnifies your personality. So a hot headed douche is just more hot headed on roids. As George Carlin said "sure, it magnifies your personality, but what if your an a**hole?".

There are many different drugs and some likely have different effects on the system so maybe you can't lump them all into a bucket that says "they cause rage" or whatever. Drug A may increase rage where drug B does not. So I think it might be fair to say the results from one or a few person niether proves nor disproves harmful effects.

[98tadriver]

Originally Posted by CamaroJoe1987

i personally dont give a **** about the steriod use, that just basically means they are too pussy to actually work hard

You are wrong sir. go back a few posts and read what i posted.

[98tadriver]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Ron, I don't think anyone is staying these drugs take the place of training. Unless I missed it in this thread I don't think anyone here has said it.

We can debate whether performance enhancing drugs should be banned or not but for now there are certain drugs that are illegal. If a player is caught using them then the punishment should be swift and severe. If a player used them prior to them being added to a banned list then I don't see how a player should get into any trouble.

you missed it, lol a person or people mentioned that its "cheating"

[CJDZ24_Z28]

I gave up on MLB back in 90's..

[Knipps]

I still say the drug olympics are the way to go

[Crayface]

what popular athlete doesnt use steriods???? thats an even better question...... they all do nowadays ever D3 football teams are juicing hard, its become intensly popular within the past two decades but as my opinion i just dont give a f***, there the retards ruining there body not me

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Knipps

I still say the drug olympics are the way to go

"oh, that's gonna hurt the big Russian".