Why the Mustang succedes BIG TIME!

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

...These cars won't sell well. They didn't in the 60's, either. ....

A noteworthy fact often overlooked. The best though are the stories of mopar dealers de-birding superbirds because no one wanted one. LOL, ah how time smooths history

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

A noteworthy fact often overlooked. The best though are the stories of mopar dealers de-birding superbirds because no one wanted one. LOL, ah how time smooths history

Even the all mighty ZL1 that everybody fawns over now...sold like crap. I think it was around double the price of an regular SS Camaro at $7200, and Gibb could only sell 13 of them. The rest got redistributed.

GM even had the two ZL1 prototype cars that were around $9000 when they were all done. Talk about steep for the time. An average house had a price of $15000.

[LTb1ow]

So Ford is wasting money making some "race car" mustang ( kinda ironic) and that will cause the demise of the camaro?

Something along these lines?

[Blacdout96]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

Exaclty. Ford doesn't have an answer to the Vette. Even the GT40 was weak in the knees when up against the Vette, especially considering the price point.

Ford GT vs. Z06
0-60 - 3.3 4.5
0-100 - 7.4 8.3
1/4 - 11.2 12.2
top speed - 205mph ( elect. limited) 198mph
60-0 - 114 108.4
HP - 550 505
Torque - 500 500
weight - 3,485lbs. 3,130
power/weight - 0.15 0.15
Skid - 1.01 1.01


If a price tag is a factor when it comes to buying a supercar, then you shouldn't consider buying one. If your looking for a car thats affordably cheap and fast, go vette, if you want to make a statement, have a sense in style, AND go fast, you go GT.

Originally Posted by Jersey_TA

They look nice, but I've ridden in my buddy's boss's Ford GT and it was by far the most uncomfortable car I've ever ridden in.

It was based of an iconic race car that was 40 in. ( the lowest GT40 was the MkIV @ 38.5 in.!!) this one was the tallest @ 44in, believe me, buying a car that low, you gotta understand they were built to fit people comfortably peopel th size of Kasey

Originally Posted by Frosty

Drove one....cool cars, just not $200K cool. Can has ZR1 for way less.

your right you could, the Z06 is a mass produced car compared to the GT, and thats like saying a Pagani Zonda is cool, just not 3/4 million cool, your buying and exclusivity car, there's nothing exclusive about a Z06 compared to the GT or other supercars.

[NastyEllEssWon]

he said zr1...not z06





and in the gt's defense.....the bar the zr1 set wasnt set yet

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

Ford GT vs. Z06
0-60 - 3.3 4.5
0-100 - 7.4 8.3
1/4 - 11.2 12.2
top speed - 205mph ( elect. limited) 198mph
60-0 - 114 108.4
HP - 550 505
Torque - 500 500
weight - 3,485lbs. 3,130
power/weight - 0.15 0.15
Skid - 1.01 1.01


If a price tag is a factor when it comes to buying a supercar, then you shouldn't consider buying one. If your looking for a car thats affordably cheap and fast, go vette, if you want to make a statement, have a sense in style, AND go fast, you go GT.



It was based of an iconic race car that was 40 in. ( the lowest GT40 was the MkIV @ 38.5 in.!!) this one was the tallest @ 44in, believe me, buying a car that low, you gotta understand they were built to fit people comfortably peopel th size of Kasey


your right you could, the Z06 is a mass produced car compared to the GT, and thats like saying a Pagani Zonda is cool, just not 3/4 million cool, your buying and exclusivity car, there's nothing exclusive about a Z06 compared to the GT or other supercars.

I'd MUCH rather go for a replica GT40. Complete with megaphones and all. Seeing as how the GT is impractical anyway.

[Frosty]

Blac, those numbers don't make sense. I've only seen 1 Ford GT run at the track so I can't say ALL run a certain time but this one wasn't anywhere near 11.2's(nor have some of the Youtube vids I've seen). Also, show me a single Z06 that runs 12.20's and I'll show you a driver that shouldn't own the car. A C6 Z06 is a solid mid 11 second car all day long. Further proof that magazine times are pointless.

Explain how a car that has only 45hp more and weighs over 300#'s more can run a full second faster in the 1/4...no way.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

Ford GT vs. Z06

apples & oranges.

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by Frosty

BTW, GM offers a Camaro shell for drag racing applications.

As far as I know there was a full out drag version of the Challenger...we all see how well that helped sell the car.

What exactly are you basing the lack of Camaro buzz on(I have my theories but I'll play nice)? ANY new model we get all kinds of hype then die down...do you want people blowing GM engineers for the next 5yrs? The buzz over the redesigned Mustang died in about a year then it was business as usual.

I'm sorry but factory drag car products DO NOT sell cars...GM could go build a 1200hp, $200K drag car and I(along with the masses) could care less. I'm either going to buy a new Camaro or I'm not....why would some pet project influence my decision to buy or not buy? Anyone that gets influenced by a drag car like that they can't afford is an idiot.

BTW, the days of 3200lbs cars are LONG gone....WAY LONG gone...there are too many safety requirements and bells and whistles the public wants. Sure, go strip out a Z28 to have nothing in it...GM would sell about 10 of them to die hard enthusiasts.

I still don't buy this super Mustang influencing a single street model sale...one has nothing to do with the other IMO. Some people are using this pet project to rip on GM...then they would be the same people whining that GM spends $$ on stupid stuff....this would be a perfect example. GM would see absolutely no benefit to building some stupid drag car.

The Challenger suffers from the same disease as the Camaro, its fat (4100lbs) and how do you offer a sports car in its first model year and not offer a manual transmission? That was a poorly thought out move on Dodge's part. I don't think 3200lb cars are long gone. A 2009 Mustang GT, the direct comparison for a Z28 tips the scales at 3400lbs. I doubt Ford has sourced some unobtainium somewhere to build the car with. Tell the GM engineers to cut 400lbs from the curb weight, I'm sure they can do it.

I'm basing the lack of buzz because I don't see them? I see the same cars on the dealer lots that I pass on a regular basis. Maguire, Elkins, Superior. Maybe they are selling and being restocked with identical cars? And in case you think I'm anti-Camaro because I have a firechicken, you'd be way off base on that one. I'm not even anti-Camaro I just see the car as a dissappointment given the chance to start from a clean slate. How can GM produce the CTS (and CTS-V) and the G8 from a clean slate and put together such a beautiful car that sets the standard and not do the same with the Camaro. I think they got sucked into the retro theme (chasing the Mustang AGAIN) and forced the design to the extent the styling suffers. We know the car will perform because the driveline is world class.

GM already built and blew countless millions building some POS SSR truck thing and horribly failed attempt to revive the GTO....

Originally Posted by Frosty

Them building that car has nothing to do with a following, has nothing to do with them drumming up sales...it has everything to do with "wow, look at what we did". A few rich wanna be drag racers will buy them and shove them in a heated garage so they can rub one out to them as it sits there.

Maybe there aren't many new Camaro's up by you but there are a ton around here. There was a waiting list for how long? The car is selling just fine.

400lb's is a lot of weight to trim and the Z28 hasn't been a SCCA tribute since the 60's. As far as the Z06 engine goes I believe they're phasing out the LS7(I could be wrong though).

With all of the safety equipment that's required it's hard to keep the weight down. Yes the car is bulky, yes the looks are subjective but the car handles its own just fine. It smokes it's competitors, Ford is just now upping the ante with the 5.0 Mustang, GM has time to respond. As of right now the Camaro is king of the hill...not sure why there's such an issue.

Your right some rich guys will polish the cars in a heated garage with man juice, but you don't think it has the slightest trickle down effect on a young impressionable male buyer? Maybe he see's one run and gets the itch. So he ends up in a base GT versus a V6 car, but he go the idea....?

Don't use the LS7 then....but give it something special.

If the car (1SS or 2SS)stands on it own, then don't mess with it. But let Z28 stand head and shoulders above that. What are you gonna add to the Z28? More power, definitely! More creature comforts (espresso machine in the console)? The Z28 isn't going to make or break the sales for the car, that's the V6's job. Do the Z28 right, give the HP, the suspension and brakes. Lessen the creatures comforts or make use of alternative materials to trim the weight.....and let it rip.

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Hard core performance drivers will want a set list of specs and certain omissions. Radio delete, special ring and pinion, carbon fiber body panels, dry sump, etc. These cars won't sell well. They didn't in the 60's, either.

In order to keep the car alive they need to offer features that regular people want- like heated seats, XM radio, GPS, useless 22" rims, etc.

One of the reasons the Mustang is still around is because it's such a solid V6 seller. That affords them the ability to screw around with V8 models.

I realize I'm in the minority, but to me the Z28 is all about performance. I hope GM sells the V6 cars buy the boatloads and that buys them some flexibility with the V8 cars, like the Mustang model.

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

Even the all mighty ZL1 that everybody fawns over now...sold like crap. I think it was around double the price of an regular SS Camaro at $7200, and Gibb could only sell 13 of them. The rest got redistributed.

GM even had the two ZL1 prototype cars that were around $9000 when they were all done. Talk about steep for the time. An average house had a price of $15000.

I'm not arguing for ZL1 type builds. Just a nice reasonably light Camaro with an upgraded suspension with a bump in power and a manual transmission.

Who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

[BonzoHansen]

I thought I just read where the new mustang is much closer to Camaro weight. might have been the fully loaded GT500 or whatever the top shelf model is.

[NastyEllEssWon]

lol frosty...there was a zr1 guy down at atco this year....iirc he wasnt running much faster than high 11s.....we all know theyre faster than that....the type of people that own these cars are the type that cant drive em either...



coughcoughbugatticrashedinlakecoughcough

[Blacdout96]

The ZR1 shouldn't be compared to the GT since the GT's production ended before the
ZR1, so my comparisons are kept in the same build years.

Apples to oranges, yes, that's what im trying to say, but everyone seems to compare the two.

stats are stats, thats the 1/4 times I got. You gotta remember, theres a supercharger sitting atop the motor giving low end response, big honking tires to grip with, and the motor is located closer to the rear, giving that little scoot off the line compared to the Z06. I'm sure you saw faster time,s but I'm going by what the stats say.


And WBT, I agree, I'm sure the GT is a little more comfortable, but you can't beat an old school 4 weber 48IDA carbed 302, fat flared GT40 replica

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

I realize I'm in the minority, but to me the Z28 is all about performance. I hope GM sells the V6 cars buy the boatloads and that buys them some flexibility with the V8 cars, like the Mustang model.



I'm not arguing for ZL1 type builds. Just a nice reasonably light Camaro with an upgraded suspension with a bump in power and a manual transmission.

Who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

My point was that the performance-first mentality only applies to a small group of people as it always has, and no money is to be made there. Yes, it sucks, but I don't see it changing.

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

And WBT, I agree, I'm sure the GT is a little more comfortable, but you can't beat an old school 4 weber 48IDA carbed 302, fat flared GT40 replica

Nope. 7500RPM through the megaphones is something that stands in a class all its own.

A shot of a family friend's headers during development (pre final weld and polish):



This car is done now and is awesome...

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

I thought I just read where the new mustang is much closer to Camaro weight. might have been the fully loaded GT500 or whatever the top shelf model is.

Yeah the GT500 super duper version is 3900lbs...but the GT is pretty still a relatively light car at 3400lbs.

GM doesn't need to chase the GT500-Super Snake-Shelbly-Parnelli Jones-Boss-Mach I-Cobra Jet edition.

Let the aftermarket builders do that.

Just build the Z28 to completely annhilate the GT....completely and totally and let the thing have some personality....

[1QWIKBIRD]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

My point was that the performance-first mentality only applies to a small group of people as it always has, and no money is to be made there. Yes, it sucks, but I don't see it changing.

I understand I guess I'm just old. Compared to the 12V Cummins Turbo Diesel I drive everyday, just about anything is pure luxury. So for me it would take very few creature comforts to WOW me. But I guess if you (generally speaking) cruising in a a new Malibu or G8 or Camary or Accord, then maybe you've become accustomed to a more refined existence.

So who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

I understand I guess I'm just old. Compared to the 12V Cummins Turbo Diesel I drive everyday, just about anything is pure luxury. So for me it would take very few creature comforts to WOW me. But I guess if you cruising in a a new Malibu or G8 or Camary or Accord, then maybe you've become accustomed to a more refined existence.

So who is the target demographic of the Camaro anyway?

Well, I'd stand in line right behind you for a performance-based Z28, that's for sure. But we are the minority. It will probably have assorted doodads that make it tubby bitch heavy so they can sell more of them.

[Blacdout96]

Originally Posted by WildBillyT

My point was that the performance-first mentality only applies to a small group of people as it always has, and no money is to be made there. Yes, it sucks, but I don't see it changing.



Nope. 7500RPM through the megaphones is something that stands in a class all its own.

A shot of a family friend's headers during development (pre final weld and polish):



This car is done now and is awesome...

Hold it, hold it, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddd I'm half chubbed


they did a good job, Weslake valve covers and all. And it looks like it's painted in the original Gulf Colors, just like the one Mr. Collier owns!! And before any of you say no, it's light blue, yes those are the famous colors, but originally Gulf wanted them to run a dark blue and orange scheme.

[WildBillyT]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

Hold it, hold it, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddd I'm half chubbed


they did a good job, Weslake valve covers and all. And it looks like it's painted in the original Gulf Colors, just like the one Mr. Collier owns!!

Those are Gurney Weslake heads. Very very nice setup, done by Olthoff racing I believe.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by 1QWIKBIRD

Don't use the LS7 then....but give it something special.

You....do....know....what....motor....is....going. ...in....the...Z28....right?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

stats are stats, thats the 1/4 times I got. You gotta remember, theres a supercharger sitting atop the motor giving low end response, big honking tires to grip with, and the motor is located closer to the rear, giving that little scoot off the line compared to the Z06. I'm sure you saw faster time,s but I'm going by what the stats say.

That's fine, stats are stats and I'm saying there's not a snowball's chance in hell that car is running a consistent 11.2's...no way, no how. EVERY video I've seen has the GT barely edging out a stock Z06...and the Z06's with longtubes and a tune are blowing them out of the water....it can't be the case that EVERY driver of the GT was bad. The source you quoted for the Z06 is horribly off...they seriously must've had a special kid driving it.

Like I said, I think the GT is a cool car and yes it's a "status" car but for $200K(that's what the dealers were getting for them), no thanks. You can keep the status and the ego that goes with it.

[Blacdout96]

sure, yuo could put long tubes, and tune, and it'll beat the GT, but then you can throw a smaller pulley, tune and if you want upgrade the exhaust on the GT, and it's back to square one where the z06 is edged out by the GT stock for stock were talkign about though, no mods.

[LTb1ow]

Ford sucks. Mustangs are slow. Mod motors blow.

/thread.

[BonzoHansen]

Originally Posted by Frosty

You....do....know....what....motor....is....going. ...in....the...Z28....right?

not an ls7

[Blacdout96]

and GT's shouldn
t be at a drag track in the first place, not their original intentions, should belong on a nice twisty piece of Nurburg

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Blacdout96

sure, yuo could put long tubes, and tune, and it'll beat the GT, but then you can throw a smaller pulley, tune and if you want upgrade the exhaust on the GT, and it's back to square one where the z06 is edged out by the GT stock for stock were talkign about though, no mods.

I understand that, my point was there isn't a full second difference between the cars stock for stock.

Originally Posted by BonzoHansen

not an ls7

Nope, I think he's missing what motor is really going in there.