Holland Tunnel Bombing plot uncovered

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by camarokev

I've been saying that for a VERY long time- the PATRIOT act might cut into a citizen's privacy, but to me, the sacrifice is WELL worth it. What did people want Bush to do? Nothing? If he had done nothing, and elected to not endorse the PATRIOT act, I can guarantee you that it would make it MUCH easier for terrorists to try and do something such as this bombing to our country.

And, in spite of all of that, you STILL have some liberals saying, "THE NERVE OF OUR PRESIDENT, blah blah blah blah"... okay, fine... let's not let the government take a proactive stance and instead lets sit by the wayside and let the terrorists that we do in fact have living here among us (ever seen the movie Arlington Road?) take advantage of the fact that we have no way to spy on them. Please.

(end rant).

You are right, lets just totaly blow away the Constitution and **** any right to a fair trial, and go right to detaining people without ever listing any cause, agaisnt there own free will, and give up all our liberties and civil rights. The ends justifies the means, right?
You think that because of all this, that they are not attacking us here? Do you think that the terrorists are THAT dumb to just post stuff on the internet? What if all that was BS, and that it was ment to distract the attention away from, I dunno, destroying another part of the country.
These terrorists arent stupid, and just cause we arrested a few, doesnt mean that the others will just give up.
Im not willing to give up my rights as an American Citizen because of a crazy bunch of Muslims that want blood. They will kill and keep killing, no matter how many Ammendments and rights the goverment strips from us.

[camarokev]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

You are right, lets just totaly blow away the Constitution and **** any right to a fair trial, and go right to detaining people without ever listing any cause, agaisnt there own free will, and give up all our liberties and civil rights. The ends justifies the means, right?
You think that because of all this, that they are not attacking us here? Do you think that the terrorists are THAT dumb to just post stuff on the internet? What if all that was BS, and that it was ment to distract the attention away from, I dunno, destroying another part of the country.
These terrorists arent stupid, and just cause we arrested a few, doesnt mean that the others will just give up.
Im not willing to give up my rights as an American Citizen because of a crazy bunch of Muslims that want blood. They will kill and keep killing, no matter how many Ammendments and rights the goverment strips from us.

hmmm...Al, your quote above does what a lot of liberals do lately- take things immediately to EXTREMES. Who said anything about ****ing up the rights we have in the constitution? In order to protect our country, we NEED a law like the PATRIOT act that gives our country a right to listen in and watch over people who are doing this suspicious or are suspected or could be suspected.

Granted, a major right that is implied in "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is privacy. However, what many liberals are fighting for is the right that NO ONE be screened. How about some of these people from other countries who ARE doing things wrong and are NOT our citizens? Should we give them that same implied right when they could bomb the heck out of our country. This is where Democrats and Republicans disagree.

Seems to me like most liberals would rather have us sit on our butts, do nothing, pull out of Iraq and let them all kill themselves (a whole other issue yes, but if we pull out now, mass hysteria would ensue in that country), and just wait for our country to get bombed or attacked again. Please. At least we have a government that is doing SOMETHING to protect us.

[shane27]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

You are right, lets just totaly blow away the Constitution and **** any right to a fair trial, and go right to detaining people without ever listing any cause, agaisnt there own free will, and give up all our liberties and civil rights. The ends justifies the means, right?
You think that because of all this, that they are not attacking us here? Do you think that the terrorists are THAT dumb to just post stuff on the internet? What if all that was BS, and that it was ment to distract the attention away from, I dunno, destroying another part of the country.
These terrorists arent stupid, and just cause we arrested a few, doesnt mean that the others will just give up.
Im not willing to give up my rights as an American Citizen because of a crazy bunch of Muslims that want blood. They will kill and keep killing, no matter how many Ammendments and rights the goverment strips from us.

ok where to start
A. no i dont think their that dumb, i think we're all being lied too and terrorists dont use one of the most popular and easiest ways of communication to talk to each other, when they know their phones are probably going be tapped
B. what amendments are rights are they taking away from you? name one. their not spying on US their spying on TERROPRISTS and other big time criminals. and if thats taking one of my rights away then take it away.

i bet your the same person who would cry about the US not doing enough to prevent terrorist attacks if we didnt pass the patriot act.

[Dark_Knight7096]

Originally Posted by camarokev

hmmm...Al, your quote above does what a lot of liberals do lately- take things immediately to EXTREMES. Who said anything about ****ing up the rights we have in the constitution? In order to protect our country, we NEED a law like the PATRIOT act that gives our country a right to listen in and watch over people who are doing this suspicious or are suspected or could be suspected.

Granted, a major right that is implied in "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is privacy. However, what many liberals are fighting for is the right that NO ONE be screened. How about some of these people from other countries who ARE doing things wrong and are NOT our citizens? Should we give them that same implied right when they could bomb the heck out of our country. This is where Democrats and Republicans disagree.

Seems to me like most liberals would rather have us sit on our butts, do nothing, pull out of Iraq and let them all kill themselves (a whole other issue yes, but if we pull out now, mass hysteria would ensue in that country), and just wait for our country to get bombed or attacked again. Please. At least we have a government that is doing SOMETHING to protect us.

I'm not a liberal, I'm more republican than anything else. The problem I have with the Patriot Act is it in non-descriminatory in who it says we are allowed to watch over. If the government wanted it could watch you and get all your information and monitor you. You may say, "I don't care, I have nothing to hide". I do care, and I have nothing to hide. It's almost guilty until proven innocent to me. I wouldn't mind it if there were a few more restrictions or perhaps better reasons needed before monitoring can be done. What's the saying? "Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security," can anyone remember who said that? Some guy, maybe you've heard of him, Benjamin Franklin. There are a few other quotes that I would love to put up here that come from other founding fathers but I can't remember who said them or exactly how they were worded so I'm not gonna put them.

I don't agree with a lot of stuff this administration has done, but i'm sure now I'll just get yelled at for being a liberal, or unpatriotic or something like that, just know i'm neither.

[shane27]

ok once AGAIN, the governent isnt spying on us, their spying on terrorists. we have rights, they need a reason to by spying on you, thhir not just gunna tap your phone line and listen.

and. our founding four fathers or whatever the F they are, didnt have terrorists threats and suicide bombings. times change and you need to adjust. thats it

[camarokev]

times do change- that is why there is the "elastic" clause in the constitution.

And no, you're not unpatriotic or a liberal, wouldnt claim that at all. But, imo, Ben Franklin- isn't he the same guy that said "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy?" Come on... not the best guy to be quoting.

[BigAls87Z28]

So, if the goverment knows exactly who the terrorists are, then why dont they just arrest them? I mean, they are only listening to THIER phone calls and chat rooms, right?
They can scan ANYONE and EVERYONE's information, and can detain you for no reason. Guilty until proven innocent is right.
Im not a liberal, but I guess since im not all gung-ho about smashing in peoples doors and ripping them out of thier houses on what ammounts to be a hunch, I get grouped in with them.
And if you are going to knock Ben Franklin because of a comment about beer, you better take a good hard look at who you elected to run this great nation. Ben Franklin did more great things in a day then Bush will ever do in his life time.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

So, if the goverment knows exactly who the terrorists are, then why dont they just arrest them? I mean, they are only listening to THIER phone calls and chat rooms, right?
They can scan ANYONE and EVERYONE's information, and can detain you for no reason. Guilty until proven innocent is right.
Im not a liberal, but I guess since im not all gung-ho about smashing in peoples doors and ripping them out of thier houses on what ammounts to be a hunch, I get grouped in with them.
And if you are going to knock Ben Franklin because of a comment about beer, you better take a good hard look at who you elected to run this great nation. Ben Franklin did more great things in a day then Bush will ever do in his life time.

QFT!

[shane27]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

So, if the goverment knows exactly who the terrorists are, then why dont they just arrest them? .

yeah really, except knowing who someone is has almost nothing to do with where they are...
now your just sounding really silly so suggest you stop

p.s. who said the gov. knew exactly who they are?

[BigAls87Z28]

You did!

Originally Posted by shane

ok once AGAIN, the governent isnt spying on us, their spying on terrorists. we have rights, they need a reason to by spying on you, thhir not just gunna tap your phone line and listen.

You said, they only listen to the terrorists, so that must mean that the goverment MUST know who these people before hand? And if they know they are terrorists, why dont they just arrest them? I mean, use the Patriot Act and detain them for the rest of there life without a trial!!
And they CAN just tap your phone line for no reason! It was all over the TV about a month ago, talking about the FBI and CIA phone tapping without warrants due to the "Patriot Act" and national security. Pres. Bush gave that order and the FBI and CIA can peek into your private life whenever they feel the need.

[shane27]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

You did!


You said, they only listen to the terrorists, so that must mean that the goverment MUST know who these people before hand? And if they know they are terrorists, why dont they just arrest them? I mean, use the Patriot Act and detain them for the rest of there life without a trial!!
And they CAN just tap your phone line for no reason! It was all over the TV about a month ago, talking about the FBI and CIA phone tapping without warrants due to the "Patriot Act" and national security. Pres. Bush gave that order and the FBI and CIA can peek into your private life whenever they feel the need.

...no it just means they can interpret call from overseas and listen in on anything suspicious. it has nothing to do with knowing who they are. and for the 10th time now their NOT peeking into your life they DO NOT CARE, they have alot more to worry about then a regular civilians life. and even if they were, i havent gotten **** for anything ive said.

didnt u even read the link to the first post in the thread, they just prevented a possible attack on the holand tunnel, by spying. apperently you would rather leave the terrorists alone and let them do their thing then to protect our country

[BigAls87Z28]

Ugh..ok, well how did they find out they were terrorists in a chat room? Did they just wake up one morning and guess? Dart board perhaps? They are constantly scanning the internet, rooms of computers constantly checking and red flagging anything. If you talk over the phone, and say certain words, it can be logged and red flagged. Same things with words on the internet. I forget the program, but it seaches for certain words used on the internet. If I say such things as bomb, explosive, Holland Tunnel, etc etc, the computer will track it down.
Now, this is an example when the system does work, and the goverment can now justify its reason to pry into personal lives of millions of Americans cause they caught some terrorists.
The goverment tracks everything you say, I say, we all say. They then desipher that on some small message board related about cars, that this place isnt that big of a threat, but they might focus in on other sites that have more radical purposes, like Honda and Toyota sites....crazy asians....anyway, but its not that they just know who to look for. If it was that easy, War on Terror would be short!! They dont know who to look for. Its not the "arab" looking guy. Terror has no nationality, no race, no religion, no purpose other then to strike fear into the masses. And they are doing it with GREAT effect. They have caused America, home of the free, to live in fear. This has happend before, and will happen again in the future. History has repeated itself time and time again. McCarthy Era, Red Scare, WWII Internment Camps, hell the Cold War was all about living in fear!! Do you think that all of this, all of what we are doing today, is really gunna stop some sleeper cell in some small city from another attack? I, for one, sure as hell dont think so. All this wont ever just stop them. They wont ever give up. The War on Terror will never end.

[shane27]

you do what u can to protect your county thats the bottom line here. noone is getting screwed over becasue some fbi agent was litening to their calls to their friend. are we done here now? good.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, not to go super-liberal on you, but if the FBI did go crazy on some innocent guy...do you think you would know about it?
Point is, the Goverment doesnt know who is a terrorist so they listen to everyone and everything.
In all reality, I think our hands are tied too much and we are fighting this "war" incorrectly. Id get into it more, but my hands hurt and I have a lot of paperwork to go through at work here.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by camarokev

But, imo, Ben Franklin- isn't he the same guy that said "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy?" Come on... not the best guy to be quoting.

I have one better for you

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Much better quote.

[Frosty]

I won't sit here and claim to know all the ins and outs of the Patriot Act but Al touched on a few of them. I don't care WHO is being tapped but the mere throught of anyone in this country getting tapped without any warrants is disturbing. Oh wait, I'm sorry, the do need warrants but a court NOT of our peers(a secret panel so to speak) issues those warrants. I forgot.

Now, I'm not one if these people that wears tin foil hats thinking our government is reading our minds or anything but ok great, they can tap overseas calls...who is to say they won't change it to say "we're taping suspected terrorist calls within this country". That bothers me as well. It opens the door for other things. I don't give a **** if I, you,the neighbor up the street doesn't have anything to hide, we shouldn't have the government listing in...PERIOD.

The freedoms that make this country great are also our biggest weaknesses. Our forefathers are turning over in their graves right now knowing how much the government is involved in our daily lives. There is no right answer here because it's such a complicated subject but it really worries me that a lot of people shrug off the Patriot Act as no big deal because it makes them feel safe.

[Savage_Messiah]

Originally Posted by shane27

ok once AGAIN, the governent isnt spying on us, their spying on terrorists. we have rights, they need a reason to by spying on you, thhir not just gunna tap your phone line and listen.

And tell me, which branch of government issues those warrants?

Originally Posted by shane27

and. our founding four fathers or whatever the F they are

I really, honestly should deck you across the face for saying that.


I have said it before and I will say it again. there's a few reasons why this country was founded. Recent NJ events have sparked a little discussion on taxation without representation, which was a main theme in the Declaration.

But why did most of the settlers come here? For many of them it was because they fled places where people would be arrested for no reason and never heard from again. To prevent this from happening in the new country, there's something called the writ of HABEUS CORPUS, and it's been one of the major guardians of the people's freedom. What does it say? Things like that you can not be arrested without a cause, you have the right to a timely and fair trial, and you are innocent until proven guilty. What has the Bush administration done? Ignored all of that. Little something too called the GENEVA CONVENTIONS... look it up... bans torture of prisoners. Guantanamo Bay much?

And don't bring up the weak argument of "well they aren't playing fair so why should we"... because, well, it's not necessary.

Oh and please, not singling anyone out here, but if you're in a serious conversation and making a persuasive argument, at least make an attempt to use correct spelling, and maybe even grammar?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Savage_Messiah

Oh and please, not singling anyone out here, but if you're in a serious conversation and making a persuasive argument, at least make an attempt to use correct spelling, and maybe even grammar?

I didn't want to be the dick to point that out..so thanks.

[camarokev]

lol... i can't believe this thread is STILL going on.. hmmm... my minor was PoliSci- so, I've actually READ the PATRIOT act, for classes and for my internship, because of security with where I work. So, I'm done with the thread and argument.... we all have better things to worry about, like how to make our cars go faster and get all the chicks!

[shane27]

you are all out of your ****ing minds.we are spying on...TERRORISTS. name someone you know that got spyed on and got in trouble by the government. id like to hear who got screwed by the system. please i would love to hear it. forefathers arent turning in their graves. they have been dead for hunderes of years. are u guys paying 5 cents for soda? no becasue time change. get over it. btw how is not playing dirty not nesscarry, jeesus christ man we had 2k people die on 9/11 and im hearing its not nescarry, not THATS something our forefathers would be doing barrell rolls in their graves over.

p.s kasey why punch me in the face. thats messed up man

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by shane27

forefathers arent turning in their graves. they have been dead for hunderes of years. are u guys paying 5 cents for soda? no becasue time change. get over it. btw how is not playing dirty not nesscarry, jeesus christ man we had 2k people die on 9/11 and im hearing its not nescarry, not THATS something our forefathers would be doing barrell rolls in their graves over.

p.s kasey why punch me in the face. thats messed up man

The turning over in their graves is a figure of speech. I don't know if I can dumb it down anymore for you. You obviously have no clue as to what this country was founded and built on.

You're looking at the situation with tunnel vision. Give anyone an inch they take a foot(can you understand that?). Also more than 2K people died that day.

...also, for the love of God please learn to spell.

[shane27]

Originally Posted by Frosty

The turning over in their graves is a figure of speech. I don't know if I can dumb it down anymore for you. You obviously have no clue as to what this country was founded and built on.

You're looking at the situation with tunnel vision. Give anyone an inch they take a foot(can you understand that?). Also more than 2K people died that day.

...also, for the love of God please learn to spell.

thats really swell. you just totally went after me and said nothing about the subject of what we've been talking about. you are obviously a dumbass and u need to stop posting. you seriously had no reason to do that, and its pretty funny that you did becasue you had nothing legit to say. but anyway... go f**k yourself

[Frosty]

So you resort to name calling and cursing. Nice. So even if you are proved wrong you'll just resort to 2nd grade comebacks. Go you!

I won't even type out a rebuttal to your "do you know anyone that's been spied on" comment because it's not really worth it.

[shane27]

Originally Posted by Frosty

So you resort to name calling and cursing. Nice. So even if you are proved wrong you'll just resort to 2nd grade comebacks. Go you!

I won't even type out a rebuttal to your "do you know anyone that's been spied on" comment because it's not really worth it.

its not really worth it.... right whatever puts you to sleep at night man.

people as dumb as you piss me off to the point where i swear, sorry if your too immature to handle it
and where do you see the second grade comeback and where was i proved wrong?

[Frosty]

Wow man...you need to seriously relax. I think you're the only one that's getting all amped over this this discussion.

Relax.

Calling me douche bag isn't 2nd grade ****?

I'm only stupid because I don't agree with you. To use one of your own phrases. "Whatever helps you sleep at night".