Thank Bush

[Frosty]

We can have all of the oil we want, we still don't have enough refineries to process it. That's a HUGE problem right now.

[NJSPEEDER]

Originally Posted by Frosty

We can have all of the oil we want, we still don't have enough refineries to process it. That's a HUGE problem right now.

all gas sold in the US is refined in the US. hell, we have 3 or 4 major refineries in jersey alone(including sunoco's 3rd largest plant in north america in south jersey).

there is absolutely no relationship between where oil comes from and what gas costs. between taxes and the oil companies knowing that they have the consumers by the short hairs there is no way the prices are going to come down.

even with the addition of ethanol as an additive, prices haven't come down even though the cost and quality of the product we are paying for has gone down a bunch.

the fuel oil companies decide their margain, look at their costs, and stick to the simple truths of capitalist society. i forget the name of the british guy who won the noble prize for finance a few years ago, but he summed it up best i think. his thesis included the phrase "Money before mates," can't get any more on point than that.

[Frosty]

I read all the time how our refineries are running at maximum capacity and how "part" of the problem that's driving up the prices is our reserve, or lack thereof. It seems to me that part of the problem is that our refineries(which our severely outdated BTW) can't keep up.

Also, good point Tim, welcome to Capitalism. This situation is Capitalism at it's finest(or worst depending on how you look at it).

[12secondv6]

I'm a big south park fan...... so..... BLAME CANANDA!

[NJSPEEDER]

the reserves don't change on a holiday weekend, yet prices go up. reserves don't change the first week of sumer, yet prices go up. doesn't really matter how much oil is held in the domestic reserves, the gas companies will happily jack up prices every chance they get jsut because they can.
the illusion about where oil comes from or how much is in reserve effecting prices has only shown up since the advent of gasoline diluted with ethanol. they get to put out an inferior product, that you have to buy more of because of decreased economy, at a larger margain, all because you have no choice.

gas prices are an economic shell game that special interest groups and uninformed politicians use to wreck our wallets.

[//<86TA>\\]

Originally Posted by 12secondv6

I'm a big south park fan...... so..... BLAME CANANDA!

Wouldnt a good solution for this whole problem be to just take all the oil from the middle east, (i know its easier said then done) then just nuke the whole middle east until its a sheet of glass, then pave it over into a big parking lot?

if that fails, we can always blame Canada

South Park FTW!!!
________
Lovely Wendie99

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

the reserves don't change on a holiday weekend, yet prices go up. reserves don't change the first week of sumer, yet prices go up. doesn't really matter how much oil is held in the domestic reserves, the gas companies will happily jack up prices every chance they get jsut because they can.
the illusion about where oil comes from or how much is in reserve effecting prices has only shown up since the advent of gasoline diluted with ethanol. they get to put out an inferior product, that you have to buy more of because of decreased economy, at a larger margain, all because you have no choice.

gas prices are an economic shell game that special interest groups and uninformed politicians use to wreck our wallets.

Maybe so but what about the people that invest in oil futures? They help jack up prices too. We could go back and forth all day long and try to figure out why prices are going up. The fact is, regardless of the reasons, people like me and you are getting screwed.

[NJSPEEDER]

i don't consider free enterprise "getting screwed". i am not happy with all of the results, but i don't see how anything illegal or questionable is going on like it seems some people like to imply.
BTW, if anyone thinks GW or family are so in touch with controlling oil prices and looking out for the best interests of texas tea, remember that all the immediate members of the bush family lost millions and millions when enron went down. if they are so controlling and in charge of the scene, you would think they would have put the fix in on that one before they went anyplace else.

[johnjzjz]

Originally Posted by shane27

lol you will NEVER get an answer for that from anyone against the war.

BTW what about drilling in ANWR? all demoz and tree huggers oppose it, and if we were allowed to drill there we would have a lot less problems, cheaper oil and so on.

incase your wondering wtf im talking about heres a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_...ng_controversy

i remember when i voted for carter than / now cringe at that thought > the Medea before fox news was and still is far left, their was no other outlet and i didn't know any better, just like today many are being snowed and have no idea, mainly because they think they know better, I also remember that Alaska deal and if i had old news reals it would be like a Saturday night TV spoof, THEY lied than and they still doing it today > we as a country should make our dependence of oil our first priority and to hell wth the rest of them stop feeding everyone and let them figure it out on their own for once spoon fed populations are just that and never go looking to feed themselves EVER - jz

[Savage_Messiah]

I am against the Iraq war... Afghanistan is a diffrent story. I never said I was against that. I think we need to finish up thre, but that's a whole other convo.

[johnjzjz]

i dont get the difference the same bad guy different street like fort lee and harlem ???/// they both hate us because some bearded ass said they have to - jz

[Savage_Messiah]

Afghanistan was housing the organization that attacked us... Iraq was not, had a weak ass army (as we proved with how quickly we decimated it), and did not have the WMDs that were the basis of them being a threat to us.

[johnjzjz]

i have had the misfortune of watching in the service films of WW1, when mustard Gas was used on soldiers and others - than in 1919 at the end of the war all came together knowing the horror of it and it was world wide banned for any propose by any country EVER again > Iraq used it on its own people more than once killing 10s of thousands and made sure not to clean up after so all would see > I dont wish those films on anyone for any reason, but in real life this S$%# happens and having mustard gas was enough of a reason to do what we did forgetting all else -- dont even read up on it its the worst -- knowing something first hand has an enlightenment all its own -- jz

[JohnG]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Maybe so but what about the people that invest in oil futures? They help jack up prices too. We could go back and forth all day long and try to figure out why prices are going up. The fact is, regardless of the reasons, people like me and you are getting screwed.

here's one way to (try and) put a stop to that :

http://closetheenronloophole.com/

my Congressman (Steve Rothman) is working on it...

[JohnG]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

WOW some on this site are lost but real is a term comes to mind after reading that....The liberal tree huggers during Democrat administrations shut off Americas oil supply because the spotted owls to fish to were dieing off in great numbers -- some how that Will be missed in your answer how the left were the driving force to the spot we are in now

yes, I personally (usually) vote Democrat.

it is because I had a blue collar upbringing, and because I want to see that seniors aren't left behind, and that pharmaceutical & insurance companies don't dictate to doctor's what treatment is best, and because my civil liberties are dear to my heart.

that said, one issue alone doesn't dictate how I vote, no matter how important that issue is.

I'm all for drilling in the ANWR. I'm all for gun ownership. I'm all for closing our borders.

but when I think about who will do the best overall job in political offices, there isn't a single republican I can think of that has our best interests at heart.

not one.

[johnjzjz]

but when I think about who will do the best overall job in political offices, there isn't a single republican I can think of that has our best interests at heart.

not one.


to be so self cut off from the real world to think because of a political party's affiliations you just write off every one is just ?????????

[DaSkinnyGuy]

All i did was take a pic, Did I write those words on that pump? no. Second about the exxon/mobil they are their own corp that made 11.7billion dollars during 2006. third was it me or did as soon as bush became president the gas prices went up. think back 8 years ago when gas was a $1.09 then it went up to $1.50 and everyone was going crazy about that and during the past 7 years bush has been pres the gas prices have went up. I am not saying its his fault but in a way he does have a small part in it with all the others such as the feds, people in charge of the oil perserves around the county and all the other people such as even us as DRIVERS that use so much gas every year.. Maybe New jersey education didnt edumakate me enought about politics but its not my fault. I didnt read everyones comments yet if I havent answered your question.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

you keep eluding to we should have done nothing at all after 911 -- and as a pacifist your ideas are always good for a laugh ( warmongers see it that way ) soooo please amuse me with what if anything you think the USA should have or not -- as seen buy you WHAT should we have done ?????????????? --This warmonger sees it different than you > jz

Yes, we were attacked on 9/11, so I guess we should march into any country we want, destroy its goverment, police thier people, and impose our own Democratic ideas to every Arab nation who doesnt follow in line with us?
Not one single nation attacked us on 9/11. No country's army boarded 3 planes that morning, and flew into the towers and the pentagon. They flew no flag and were not affilated with any single country.
We are in Iraq, and its a **** fest. Afgan is also a **** fest. America is making zero progress in either arena, and we are sounding the alarm for Iran.

Originally Posted by Teds89IROC

The problem is OPEC, their nations account for 2/3 of the world's oil reserves and therefore control the price.

Originally Posted by shane27

BTW what about drilling in ANWR? all demoz and tree huggers oppose it, and if we were allowed to drill there we would have a lot less problems, cheaper oil and so on.

incase your wondering wtf im talking about heres a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_...ng_controversy

Yes, it would give us a ton more oil. But they are not refining it as fast as they could. The stock market is also manipulating the price of oil drasticly. Like the housing market, like the internet boom, when the stock market gets horny for something, they hound it. Oil is the new money maker.
China consumes it fast, as does America and Europe. The true true price of oil is around 60 bucks a barrel. The other price is inflated due to speculation and playing with oil in the stock market. Thats it. There is no need to turn a beautiful place like ANWAR into a thrashed out, rummaged wasteland.

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

i dont get the difference the same bad guy different street like fort lee and harlem ???/// they both hate us because some bearded ass said they have to - jz

Exactly!! Just kill ALL arabs! Thats it!! Same bad guy! Now I see America's plan on how to fight terror! KILL THE ARABS! Gotta beard, a heavy tan, and love Allah? DEAD!! Who gives a flying rats ass?!?! BELIVE IN JESUS OR DIE!!

Originally Posted by JohnG

yes, I personally (usually) vote Democrat.

it is because I had a blue collar upbringing, and because I want to see that seniors aren't left behind, and that pharmaceutical & insurance companies don't dictate to doctor's what treatment is best, and because my civil liberties are dear to my heart.

that said, one issue alone doesn't dictate how I vote, no matter how important that issue is.

I'm all for drilling in the ANWR. I'm all for gun ownership. I'm all for closing our borders.

but when I think about who will do the best overall job in political offices, there isn't a single republican I can think of that has our best interests at heart.

not one.

I agree with 99% of what you said, sans the ANWR thing.


Oil prices are being driven by several different fronts, namely speculation on the market and heavy investing and high return on it. People need oil, and people will buy it.

Call me a tree hugger cause I dont want massive oil rigs and refineries in a beautiful lands of America. Maybe I think that there are other things that can be done to help conserve instead of help speed up the consumption of oil. Here in NJ, we are blessed to have some of the cheapest gas in the Nation.

History will show that Bush Jr was one of the most useless presidents ever to be elected to office. Is it his fault about Katrina? No, Bush has no control over the weather, but there was information passed to Bush and his administration about the possibility in case of a near direct or direct hit by a hurricane to the New Orleans Gulf area that the levyes would be useless. Nothing was done, ok thats fine I guess we cant predict everything. But what really pissed me off is the total lack of orginization of the Bush admin. to assist people down there. Just sheer lack of planning in case of an emergency is what baffles me.

Is Bush responsible for high gas? Perhaps. While he doesnt directly control prices or the people who make them, he sure can put this foot down when he sees an injustice.

Bush cant be blamed for things that happend, but he sure doesnt do **** to try to help out. Excuses galore, redirection and stupid moves dominate his administration.

In 8 years, how far have we come? Since 2000, we have enterd a war on at least 2 fronts, with 2 more on the way. We have seen a major decline in employment, we have seen a huge increase in spending, we have seen outright lies by the DOD and the Bush Admin. Countless, countless things that Bush could and should have been impeached for, and nothing was done.

I put blame on the recently elected Dems that also promised change when they would take over Congress, and nothing has happend.

The housing market is in a tail spin, the dollar is sinking faster then Bush's approval rating, we are in 2 wars with no end in sight for either, and all this right before a big election where people are talking about having a guys name that rymes with Osama, and a "crazy" Woman that might make it to the white house.

This country is rotting from within. Like Rome, the fall will come from the inside as is forces are on the edges of its empire, fighting small battles and occupying land they cannot afford to maintain and govern. I look out on todays society and wonder when did all this happen? Has it always been like this?

With all this, we are worried about oil? Oil is just the tip of the ice burg.

[NJSPEEDER]

I put blame on the recently elected Dems that also promised change when they would take over Congress, and nothing has happend.

amen to that. this is one of the many reasons i refuse to align myself with any political party. the dems won the mid term elections in a land slide and have failed to do absolutely anything.

i think the roman comparison is right on point too. the parellels are endless with the passive state that mainstream society fell into in rome as the extremists around the fringe slowly destroyed the nation from with in it's own systems.

[Ian]

while the dems do have a majority of congress, they do not have 2/3 of congress which limits what they can do. that and the fact that even though they are all part of the same party, they probably cant agree on certain issues.

*edit*

and to state my original argument again, we dont have the refinery capacity to be self sustaining.

[johnjzjz]

Exactly!! Just kill ALL Arabs! Thats it!! Same bad guy! Now I see America's plan on how to fight terror! KILL THE ARABS! Gotta beard, a heavy tan, and love Allah? DEAD!! Who gives a flying rats ass?!?! BELIEVE IN JESUS OR DIE!!

politics and religion will bring out the best in people THAT said

how did you get what i wrote that twisted

1 - your correct maybe ??? but not the way you think, that fight you said ( Iraq war ) no flag, no country, did attack us - 911, well your wrong it was religious beliefs and that transcends all boundary's of land and all nationalities > BTW their Religious leaders are on flags if you haven't seen that > ( the banner mind set ) they the Muslims who ever they may be hate us as infidel's PERIOD or have you not gotten that message from watching whats going on
do you understand that if we don't take the fight to them it comes hear and its bushes fault again i know next 20 years its all what he didn't do or what he did do - NO win in history came as a result of standing in one spot and letting them attack you - you have to take the fight to them in their back yard the whole nation or nations needs to see the loss or like in WW1 30 years later it started again HISTORY repeats its self over and over again unless democracy is put in place and before you start with Nation building bull give me another example YOU have one ???????????

2 - in your answer to me it seemed you think i am a Jesus freak far right kook

wrong -- yes i went to catholic school in NYC - But it wasn't till you see first hand what people are willing to do to one another in combat that God is taken out of that equation - maybe if you believe in a higher power who knows - to allow as a supreme being what goes on, no i cant believe it - and your right to disagree its just that -- BUT in bearded land your head is removed for saying anything they don't like or has that been missed as well - stoned to death if a woman should be with a man not related to them in public HELLO ---- Gotta beard, a heavy tan, and love Allah? DEAD --- are you kidding you think thats what anyone who does not see it your way thinks REALLY get off the far left web sites they have you in their control and you dont know it - try not to only read one side look at both -- no one has all the answers Not even liberals -- jz

[BigAls87Z28]

I dont think you are a "Jesus" freak or have any association with the Religious Right.
I do think that this war with the Islamic region is on some level a religious war.
I dont look at any lefty sites, I just try to pick through the **** and find out what is really going on. I have no association with either side, nor do I really want too.
The right is so clogged with Religious **** while the Left is getting to be too odd.
Hell, Guliani now has to put on a show and dance for the Bible Belt so that he can win some of them over. Thats sad, it really is. I hope that if he does make it to office, that he only did that to appease the Rep party, and he can lay down some law when he enters the White House.

WWI happed because democracy wasnt in place? No ****ing way. What happend was that all these countries made pacts and allied with everyone else, and when the Archduke was assasinated, it started a domino effect that brought all of Europe into a major war.
WWII was almost a continuation. Due to the fact that Germany was stripped of pride and power, that the people of Germany because down on themselves. They went into a depression harder then the US did. It took a man like Hitler who pinned the problems on people who were keeping them down such as the Jews and others He then used that momentium to build himself and which brought him to power. He then built himself a massive army and trained them. He brought Germany back to greatness, even if what he did was absoluty unethical and unmoral. Nothing for nothing, but Germany has never been more pround of itself since then. Thats another story for another day, but in no way was anything involving a lack of democracy a prelude to war. These were established countires, with an established goverment, society and military. They were organized and mobilized.

Back to getting on topic of this thread.
Arabs are making money off oil because the world revolved around it. How can we limit intake of oil? By finding other sources of fuel. Hyrbid cars are still powerd by gas and still take 5 qts of oil every 5-7k miles. Better gas milage does not mean that it will stop people from using gas. At some point, such an improvement will turn around as more people will drive more since they can get better gas milage, which will negate the hyrbid effect, and they will use just as much gas and oil as previously. On top of the fact that it takes on average 8-10 years between when a new car hits the showrooms of america and makes it full stream impact into the used car market.
A car that gets 40mpg now wont be helpful to the enviroment till 2018.