Got that Som'bitch!!

[NJSPEEDER]

ian, since sept11 and the US' entry into the war on terrorism the number of terrorist strikes has diminished. even the terror organizations themselvces are claiming to have fewer members than ever.
our involvement is making a difference. i know that it isn't a pretty one, but a positive difference non ethe less.
this is in large part due to the death/capture of many top terror operatives and the establishment of a stable government structure that has support from around the world.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

do you want amercia to solve thousand year old regional ethnic/tribal/clan wars next?

Hey im not the one who tries to police the world and stick your nose in others peoples business.

you take care of the **** that threatens you first, then move on to other issues.

How did Iraq threaten your security? i fail to see that one.
Remember war in yugoslavia? kinda along the lines whats happenned in Rwanda and is happening now in Darfur - well you seemed to be all over that ****, didnt ya? you droped bombs and sent troops there, broke the country in half and put their leader on trial. But i guess that somehow different too, even tho both places were slaughtering people for no good reason aka genocide. im sure you'll come up with something creative like it was close to your allies or yugslavians were gonna invade US after they were done with each other.

threats to the US will always be top news compared to trouble that is regional on teh otehr side of the world.

last time i checked Iraq was in Middle East and US was in North America.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

ian, since sept11 and the US' entry into the war on terrorism the number of terrorist strikes has diminished. even the terror organizations themselvces are claiming to have fewer members than ever.

Do you mean terrorist strikes on US? then ill agree with you, if not then there's been plenty around the world after 9/11. you can google if you'd like they dont show every signle one on TV...
When did "terror organizations" say they have fewer members than ever? i doubt that actually came out of their mouths - somehow it seems um...how should i put this nicely, not true.

[BigAls87Z28]

Terrorist strikes have gone down since we attacked Afganistan/Iraq??!?!?! Every road side bomb, every IED that kills 20 people, THAT is a terrorist act!!
We are in the birth of creation, where people have been fighting for thousands of years, and we wedge ourselves between several warring religouis factions, and we expect that our guns and tanks will just solve itself.
We had Iraq under the microscope since 91. Air Force flying NON STOP over Iraq. They were NO threat to anyone.
Afganastan, I can see because that "goverment" was directly involved in with Sept 11th as well as several other of Osama's attacks.
We did not launch a full military invasion to take out suspected factories and camp sites, and that kept them at bay.
Remember, they didnt "bomb" us, they didnt blow anything up. There was no explosives on board any of the 3 planes. They were trained here, by American flying schools to fly large aircraft, and they used the planes to do the damage.
And now, look at our "free" nation, full of illegal wire taps and the Patriot Acts that can hold you in jail, not disclose your location, or tell you why you are being held against your will, all in the name of "National Security."
Years from now, we will look back on this and realise how we destroyed, yet again, American's liberties just like we do on the McCarthy Era, Internment Camps in WWII, as well as several acts passed durring WWI and Spanish-American War. History repeats itself yet again.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Well, if I recall, Pres.Clinton was lambasted for thinking of putting troops in a war against an enemy with no face, no home country, no real foundation outside of its fanatical religious belives. The non-violent approach? We have been dropping bombs on Iraq since the end of the first Gulf War, enforcing the no-fly zone. We launched cruse missles at targets with precision to take out key targets.
These people wont back down. Doesnt matter if you send 10 Tomahawks for 200k Troops, they still hate us. They will continue to hate us, and having 200k troops police the country between warring factions in Iraq doesnt help things at all. These guys are serious, and there will be no end to this. It will keep going and going.
I still have a huge problem with the US invading a country that never attacked us. We went in on an idea, that Ill admit, I took hook line and sinker, and supported what we were doing, but it became obvious that we had zero exit plan, and that we were gunan become a police force.
I dont blame the troops, and dont take this as I dont support them as I do 11000%. I blame the people that put them there.
This whole thread is gunna get out of hand, and I knew it when I posted it, but in the end, our troops are still there, and hearing every day another 1 or 2 were shot, blown up, or whatever does not help boost the morale at home. Its a mess, but its time to get out.
And if you want my honest opinion, that most of those people are animals, and that it took an animal to keep them contained.

I normally don't agree with you but I'm in agreement with you 110%, aside from the Clinton comment lol.

My biggest problem with Iraq is we went in there as their saviors...we there to save them from big bad Saddam(don't get me wrong, he's a piece of **** and should've been shot on the spot) however why are we helping people that really don't want to be helped? Also, I hear ALL THE TIME "why can't they just let us do our thing and be happy we're there". Great...but let's flip the script here. If some country came HERE would any one of us sit here and let their troops do their thing? **** no. It's sooooo easy to sit here in our cushy homes and say what others should do. I'm a Republican but IMO Bush has brought a lot of shame and tainted the party. It pisses me off because I voted for him both times lol.

I support our troops to the fullest extent. Agree with the war or not they're sacrificing more than we'll ever know to even have this simple discussion. God bless them, they're the REAL heroes of our society.

EDIT: Too lazy to fix typos

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

We are in the birth of creation, where people have been fighting for thousands of years, and we wedge ourselves between several warring religouis factions, and we expect that our guns and tanks will just solve itself.
We had Iraq under the microscope since 91. Air Force flying NON STOP over Iraq. They were NO threat to anyone.
Afganastan, I can see because that "goverment" was directly involved in with Sept 11th as well as several other of Osama's attacks.
We did not launch a full military invasion to take out suspected factories and camp sites, and that kept them at bay.
Remember, they didnt "bomb" us, they didnt blow anything up. There was no explosives on board any of the 3 planes. They were trained here, by American flying schools to fly large aircraft, and they used the planes to do the damage.
And now, look at our "free" nation, full of illegal wire taps and the Patriot Acts that can hold you in jail, not disclose your location, or tell you why you are being held against your will, all in the name of "National Security."
Years from now, we will look back on this and realise how we destroyed, yet again, American's liberties just like we do on the McCarthy Era, Internment Camps in WWII, as well as several acts passed durring WWI and Spanish-American War. History repeats itself yet again.

I need to be checked into a hospital since I'm agreeing with you again lol

I find it funny that the Republican Party has always been for smaller governement, staying out of our daily lives. Right, thanks Bush.

It seems like people are willing to give up their freedoms in the name of safety. Our biggest success(our personal freedom) is also are biggest enemy. However, if we start trading in freedoms for security and safety than they've won.

[jola]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I find it funny that the Republican Party has always been for smaller governement, staying out of our daily lives. Right, thanks Bush.

It seems like people are willing to give up their freedoms in the name of safety. Our biggest success(our personal freedom) is also are biggest enemy. However, if we start trading in freedoms for security and safety than they've won.

1. the republican party is often tied to militarism. there are exceptions to the rule republicanism=smaller government. blanket statements in politics don't always work.
2. how does attaining greater security by sacrificing more personal security means "they" have won? if we are still talking about extremist islamic terrorist cells, most of there goals (immediate at least) reside in the ousting of the west from the middle east. americans alive and well (and secure) in the middle east is pissing them off quite a bit, and i don't think its because they are winning.

[jola]

policing the world is a tricky subject. i look at it this way...i see some absolutes in the world. for instance...women should be treated like people, not property. slavery is bad. extremist terrorism like al qaeda is a negative, etc. now, as someone correctly pointed out before, america is the only superpower left. i'll take the example of darfur...shouldn't the US "police" darfur if they are unable to and europe chooses to stand by? i think the US should go in their and stop the genocide.

[jola]

Originally Posted by shane27

yeah we bombed some stupid factories that did absoutly nothing so really, we havent done much
clinton was too much of a pussy to fight back which is why we got attacked on 9.11

sorry to go back and quote this, but you guys wrote so much in a day.

US involvement in the middle east dates back to the cold war, mainly from the 70's on, NOT JUST the clinton era. the US has been operating in shady ways over there for a while. we did not get attacked b/c of 1 or 2 weak presidents. if anyone wants to go into the details of the terrorist bombings/military responses of these decades, i can elaborate.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by jola

2. how does attaining greater security by sacrificing more personal security means "they" have won? if we are still talking about extremist islamic terrorist cells, most of there goals (immediate at least) reside in the ousting of the west from the middle east. americans alive and well (and secure) in the middle east is pissing them off quite a bit, and i don't think its because they are winning.

I don't agree with that statement totally. Aside from religious reason a lot of these extrememists hate us for the fact that we're free. We don't live by a strict religious code that basically strips all personal freedoms.

..and yes when I say "they" I mean those we're fighting. So let me ask you something. Would you be ok with our government listening to your phone calls in the name of security?

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jola

i'll take the example of darfur...shouldn't the US "police" darfur if they are unable to and europe chooses to stand by? i think the US should go in their and stop the genocide.

well according to tim here they dont present a danger to US therefor we shouldnt worry about them just now. Iraq on the other hand was ready to slaughter US army with WMDs.

[jola]

Originally Posted by Tsar

well according to tim here they dont present a danger to US therefor we shouldnt worry about them just now. Iraq on the other hand was ready to slaughter US army with WMDs.

darfur offers bush zero political capital, same reason rwanda was left to their own devices. let me just use this as a push for darfur real quick...do what you can to notify congressmen of your support for stopping the genocide. back on topic, that was just to illustrate my point that i do in fact believe policing a foreign land can be legitimate. i think its pretty messed up that genocides can happen and nothing is done. people say policing shouldn't be done? bs. people are dying with no savior in sight.

[jola]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I don't agree with that statement totally. Aside from religious reason a lot of these extrememists hate us for the fact that we're free. We don't live by a strict religious code that basically strips all personal freedoms.

..and yes when I say "they" I mean those we're fighting. So let me ask you something. Would you be ok with our government listening to your phone calls in the name of security?

i agree, we are hated for our freedom many times. but freedom isn't the only thing that makes us american. bottom line for me is we are still in the middle east and will be there a long time, so unless the goal of the terrorist group is only to instill terror (which, let me put this to rest quickly, it is almost always not) then they have not succeeded.

[Frosty]

Agree with your bottom statement but what I meant was if they can make us live in fear or somehow change what this country does then yes, they in a way, have won.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Agree with your bottom statement but what I meant was if they can make us live in fear or somehow change what this country does then yes, they in a way, have won.

I agree completely with you. Our country was founded on freedom. We moved across an ocean and fought so that we could do what we want without persecution. One of the fundamental principles this country was also founded around was that if at any time the people of this nation did not feel the government was doing a good job, we were allowed to step up, overthrow our own government and restructure it to make it work. With the introduction of the "Patriot Act" (I hate that name) it is now illegal to even speak out against our government. Our freedom of speech could have us sitting in a courtroom waiting to be tried for treason if we dont watch what we say. Land of the free....my ass!

To quote one of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

[Ian]

Originally Posted by NJSPEEDER

do you want amercia to solve thousand year old regional ethnic/tribal/clan wars next?

Isn't that what we're trying to do in the middle east? We take Israel's side and help fight the Muslims? that war goes back thousands of years, has nothing to do with our safety here in America and yet, there we are, dumping a billions into a war we have no business in. and dont tell me its because the muslims bombed the israelis, the israelis have bombed the muslims before too.

[enRo]

Lets just withdrawl troops and nuke the ****ers, end o' discussion.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Ian

To quote one of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

That's the quote I was trying to think of but was too lazy to find it word for word. He's absolutely right.

[qwikz28]

Originally Posted by Tsar

yes you are wrong, you've bombed afganistan before 9/11

why you? you live in america, you are now one of us.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyKane

Lets just withdrawl troops and nuke the ****ers, end o' discussion.

my mother was born and raised in Baghdad

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by qwikz28

why you? you live in america, you are now one of us.

im also a citizen but i still mostly refer to us (russia) and you (america)...

[shane27]

Originally Posted by Ian

And if Clinton was such a pussy, why didnt they attack the WTC during the 8 years he was in office?

seems alot of people forgot about the WTC bombing in 93
http://www.drj.com/drworld/content/w2_029.htm

[Ian]

I'm fully aware of the bombing, however I would hardly consider that a sucessful terrorist attack. it only killed 6 people and wounded about a thousand others. that only stayed in the media for a few months tops and did not alter our entire nations way of life.

[jola]

Originally Posted by Tsar

im also a citizen but i still mostly refer to us (russia) and you (america)...

you're a true life russian? you just became cool in my book.

[Tsar]

Originally Posted by jola

you're a true life russian? you just became cool in my book.

hahah thanks

[shane27]

Originally Posted by Ian

I'm fully aware of the bombing, however I would hardly consider that a sucessful terrorist attack. it only killed 6 people and wounded about a thousand others. that only stayed in the media for a few months tops and did not alter our entire nations way of life.

LOL succesful or not its a ****ing terrorist attack man. and u tell those thousands of people and their families, friends co workers that it wasnt a succesful terrorist attack. and it accualy altered everyones life because since nothing was really done about it, it setup 9.11