LS1 Swap

[BigAls87Z28]

Well as some of you know or dont know, I am swapping in an LS1 into my 87 Camaro. This will be a more tech driven discussion, trying to get ideas and pool thoughts on best way to approach problems if and when I come to them.

List of things that will be done durring this process, not in order:
1) Engine swap
2) Trans with converter
3) Repin and splice harnesses
4) Motor mounts to Kmember
5) Moddify and install 4th gen tank with upgraded pump
6) Install sub frame connectors
7) Install trans cooler
8) Install rear
9) Install Corvette valley pan

Others to add as we go along

At this point, the 305 and 700R4 is out, harness is pulled, and the engine bay needs to be scrubbed. At this point, the major work will be put off till cleaning, paining, and splicing is done. In this time, parts will start to arrive and I will start gathering ideas on the best way to approach things.

Several things that have been brought up.

1) What torque converter to go with? The car that the engine came out of ran a 4000 stall in a 4L60E and ran high 11's. Not sure on the rear gear, but I do have cam specs, and Ill post them. Rear gears will probably be a 3.73 rear. The car wont be a drag-race only car, as it will spend a lot of time on the street so I do want soemthing a bit more civil.

Ill post more as I go on. If anyone has ideas, tips, or whatever, post up!
If you want general BS, go ahead and jump into the Jersey Shore section.




Ok: timeline added to first post, with highlighed things done

Ok, time lines in what I want to do.

by July 8th
Old mounts removed, K painted and brackets put in
Remove and send out the harness to have redone and ready for my car and sent out
Finish painting engine bay

by July 17th
All the parts for the trans in and assembled
Purchase headers and torque converter
Start bolting things together.

by July 23rd
Decide on what to do with gas tank.
Install new Speedo
Get harness back
Prep for install
Find exhaust shop to make y pipe.

By July 30th
Install 4th gen gas tank and all new lines and fittings (if decided to go 4th gen tank)
Install engine and trans.

By August 6th
Fix all bugs and pilot runs. Inspect and insure. Make appointment with exhaust shop

By August 13th
Maiden Voyage.

[LTb1ow]

Size of the stall is not really as important as the other variables for the stall, look at Kirk's compared to mine, his is real loose and doesn't move the car till a pretty high RPM versus mine which is reasonably tight and gets the car going pretty well with normal driving.

I would say around a 3000-3200 stall speed, should be nice at the track and not kill your highway driving, although if you get a TCI 6speed 4L80E... ;)

And I thought Brandon's rear was 3.42s?

You gonna get the PCM re programmed or at least tweaked for a lighter car and different stall etc?

Trans cooler is pretty easy, I would highly recommend doing something similar as to what Kirk ended up doing, hardlines suck.
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48508

Not sure what the deal is with your fuel tank but a fuel pump sway is easy and reinstalling the tank is easy if you are swapping rear ends, just do the two at the same time.

I would hold off on the SFC's until you get that thing out of your god forsakenly crooked driveway and after a few miles of driving.

What are you plans for gauges etc?



For the awesomeness thread...
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51706
:)

[MonmouthCtyAntz]

3600-4000 ...3000-3200 is mild for a LS1 w/ 4L60E...

[LTb1ow]

3600-4000 ...3000-3200 is mild for a LS1 w/ 4L60E...

Much lighter car, and he is primarily going to DD it. To large of a stall will kill the fun of driving the car. If you do get a larger one, make sure its not loose as hell for drag racing...

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415639

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/821133-stickies-here.html

Start reading Al, that or call up JSperf or yank/circle D/Vig etc and tell em what you have and what you want.

[BigAls87Z28]

Sounds good. Im still debating on sending out for the harness or not. It would save me a bunch, but it would eat up a lot of time.

I think I got me a trans too now...

[1984camaroz28]

http://www.speartech.com/

i use them for all my swaps they are well worth the money

[KirkEvil]

Much lighter car, and he is primarily going to DD it. To large of a stall will kill the fun of driving the car. If you do get a larger one, make sure its not loose as hell for drag racing...



Actually a lighter car would get up going easier than a heavier car with a high stall. The right way to do it would be to look at the torque curve of the motor to choose stall rpm, then get it built with an str to fit the torque multiplication you want for the car's weight.

My stall to yours act completely different because you have a different powerband and tq curve, different gears, and you have a mystery stall rpm.

From what I've read, Vigilante stalls run loose. You should not throw out the idea of getting a 4000 just because of my case. Yank SS series stalls only need around 2000 rpm to get going which would be perfect for DD. Circle D has built a great rep on LS1tech for custom building stalls to fit the users criteria. I think you should at least go with a 3600.

[sweetbmxrider]

Trans cooler is pretty easy, I would highly recommend doing something similar as to what Kirk ended up doing, hardlines suck.

to get technical, the only nhra approved trans lines are braided and metal. i think you are allowed like a foot of rubber but can't be the whole line.

[BigAls87Z28]

Thanks Adam. Worse case, Ill reuse the lines off the 700.

What do we think guys and gals? Paint engine bay black or keep it red?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs508.snc3/26666_1447389617596_1018838304_1301784_2976774_n.j pg

[qwikz28]

Thanks Adam. Worse case, Ill reuse the lines off the 700.

What do we think guys and gals? Paint engine bay black or keep it red?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs508.snc3/26666_1447389617596_1018838304_1301784_2976774_n.j pg

Black. I don't know much about torque converters, but I think black will look good and be easy to clean.

[BigAls87Z28]

Here are some general progress pics. they can be found on my facebook.


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs488.snc3/26682_1445127241038_1018838304_1295212_5720391_n.j pg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs508.snc3/26682_1445126521020_1018838304_1295206_2456526_n.j pg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs488.snc3/26682_1445124600972_1018838304_1295197_2874238_n.j pg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs508.snc3/26682_1445124080959_1018838304_1295195_8312706_n.j pg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs488.ash1/26666_1447390257612_1018838304_1301785_7113821_n.j pg

[Featherburner]

Is the car going to be black? If you're keeping the factory color on the outside, keep it on the inside.

[92REDBIRD]

Red would look good.

[sweetbmxrider]

i personally would go black. if you go to a car show and look at the older muscle cars, they have black under the hood. its just a clean look. keeps your attention on the motor and red can be overpowering at times. just my opinion.

[NastyEllEssWon]

id keep it red...having a different color underhood usually looks like you got the car resprayed a different color and was too lazy to do it live :nod:

[sweetbmxrider]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/tbird31/Dscn08372.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/tbird31/Dscn08412.jpg

:)

[LTb1ow]

to get technical, the only nhra approved trans lines are braided and metal. i think you are allowed like a foot of rubber but can't be the whole line.

Yea, I believe Jegs has a push lok option that is NHRA, not 100% on that but either way, hard lines are a pain to deal with, a nice SS braided line would look nice as well. :nod:

And yea, dunno what I was thinking on the weight/stall...

[BigAls87Z28]

also, another question to gauge people's thoughts.

Go with the stock gas tank and an Corvette fuel filter, or go with teh 4th gen tank. Recently Ive thought about scrapping the 4th gen tank idea....but I do have one.

[LTb1ow]

also, another question to gauge people's thoughts.

Go with the stock gas tank and an Corvette fuel filter, or go with teh 4th gen tank. Recently Ive thought about scrapping the 4th gen tank idea....but I do have one.

Either way tank has to be dropped no?

Stock tank would mean one less headache with the stupid ass gauge disaster you want?

[sweetbmxrider]

i would gauge costs and go the least expensive route ;-)

[BigAls87Z28]

Well...tank cost me 40, the Corvette fuel filter is 50, and I have to replace it like a normal fuel filter.
Pros of the filter
Dont touch the tank and dont have to worry about modding the pump so the gauge can read
Has a built in regulator
Cons: cost 50 bucks a clip every time you change it.

Pros of the tank:
plastic tank increases capacity
surrounded in a bucket to stop fuel starvation.
fits into stock location

Cons:
mod the tank for gauge
tie new pump to old harness.

[LTb1ow]

You are gonna leave a stock TPI fuel pump from 1987 in there?

Ugh. Come on Al.

Now whats so fancy about this vette filter? It does the bypass thing right? But the reg is where?

[sweetbmxrider]

pretty sure he mentioned a walboro. in any case, i'd run a hotwire kit.

[LTb1ow]

Ok, just looked at the vette thing, so its a reg/filter combo...

For 50 bucks, can't you find a non adjustable regulator and then run a semi-custom setup?

Have it mimic the vette combo but separate the reg and filter.

[JerzLT1]

Size of the stall is not really as important as the other variables for the stall, look at Kirk's compared to mine, his is real loose and doesn't move the car till a pretty high RPM versus mine which is reasonably tight and gets the car going pretty well with normal driving.

I would say around a 3000-3200 stall speed, should be nice at the track and not kill your highway driving, although if you get a TCI 6speed 4L80E... ;)

And I thought Brandon's rear was 3.42s?

You gonna get the PCM re programmed or at least tweaked for a lighter car and different stall etc?

Trans cooler is pretty easy, I would highly recommend doing something similar as to what Kirk ended up doing, hardlines suck.
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48508

Not sure what the deal is with your fuel tank but a fuel pump sway is easy and reinstalling the tank is easy if you are swapping rear ends, just do the two at the same time.

I would hold off on the SFC's until you get that thing out of your god forsakenly crooked driveway and after a few miles of driving.

What are you plans for gauges etc?



For the awesomeness thread...
http://www.njfboa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51706
:)


im pretty sure that he could have a 5600 lock up stall and it wouldnt effect his highway driving since it would be locked at highway speeds....

Al i would go with a 3600 but i really think that you should call Josh or one of the manufacturers directly

[LTb1ow]

im pretty sure that he could have a 5600 lock up stall and it wouldnt effect his highway driving since it would be locked at highway speeds....

Al i would go with a 3600 but i really think that you should call Josh or one of the manufacturers directly

Mine locks up, and its locked up round 3k cruising at 70-80mph.....

[Blackbirdws6]

If you are not good at wiring or have an exact plan of attack, pay to have the harness done for you. Last thing you want to do is troubleshoot a stupid wiring mishap.

For the fuel...whichever is easier honestly. If a $50 fuel filter saves you a lot of hassle...its worth it in my book.

Also I would keep the engine bay red. Black wouldn't look bad but I just like the red better on your car.

[KirkEvil]

Paint the engine bay black. do it.

As for the 4th gen tank, you will have to cut up the in-tank bucket to fit a walbro 255, which ruins the "fuel starvation" prevention design of the bucket. But, if you race around with less than 1/8 tank you deserve to run out of gas.

[BigAls87Z28]

Alright, need help.
Got an email from a guy, saying that he has a built trans for sale, 650 shipped. He doesnt use paypal, so that kind has me sketched out. He says that Paypal is for scammers? He has a "merchant account"?
I dont feel totally secure just sending this guy cash, and then being out 650....

[Blackbirdws6]

Alright, need help.
Got an email from a guy, saying that he has a built trans for sale, 650 shipped. He doesnt use paypal, so that kind has me sketched out. He says that Paypal is for scammers? He has a "merchant account"?
I dont feel totally secure just sending this guy cash, and then being out 650....

$100 deposit and rest in cash on pickup? Where is it?

A merchant account means he should be able to accept credit cards. I would throw it on a good credit card and if he scams you, call the cc company and get your money back. Get a clear email from the guy with all details of the transaction for your records. Ask clearly when this will be shipped after payment is received along with tracking and delivery confirmation.

[BonzoHansen]

Alright, need help.
Got an email from a guy, saying that he has a built trans for sale, 650 shipped. He doesnt use paypal, so that kind has me sketched out. He says that Paypal is for scammers? He has a "merchant account"?
I dont feel totally secure just sending this guy cash, and then being out 650....

Does he have a phone number?

man, $650 for a used trans with a generally sketchy track record. You live life on the edge.

[LTb1ow]

http://performabuilt.com/level-1.html

1600 and we can drive to PA to pick it up. Used transmission sight unseen = large pallet of potatoes.

[edpontiac91]

http://performabuilt.com/level-1.html

1600 and we can drive to PA to pick it up. Used transmission sight unseen = large pallet of potatoes.

I have to agree 100%. Knowing who you are buying it from means you have something to fall back on in case the trans pukes up. I realize that co$t is an issue, but why rush this project and wind up with a major problem.:shock:

[Mike]

agree with everyone, if a part that important is too far to inspect prior to buying, then it looses the "good deal" aspect..

[KirkEvil]

Also, $650 for a mystery "built" trans is sketchy. I could say my trans was "built" after I put a $100 transgo kit in it...

[BigAls87Z28]

1600 is way out of budget right now, plus converter.
Id rather pick up a stock 4L60E for 350 bucks and let that blow up down the line.
Im gunna have to get more details on the guy and what exactly is done to it.
He emailed me saying that he would back it up with his shop's 2 year warranty. I found his SN on ls1tech, and it seems he just signed up there and saw my post.

Ill get more info from him.

Here is a post of him selling stuff on ls1tech. One of the sponsors kind of vouched for him...so I dunno. I guess KY built his trans? Ill shot them a PM as well.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/parts-classifieds/1292295-everything-sale-must-go.html

[NastyEllEssWon]

nothing in that thread is mentioned about a built trans. ky didnt even mention the trans either. if he had it built by a shop surely he has receipts....i wouldnt buy it without any :nod:

[sweetbmxrider]

i bet a stocker with 100k on it would be stronger than a trans behind that turbo setup.

[WildBillyT]

1600 is way out of budget right now, plus converter.
Id rather pick up a stock 4L60E for 350 bucks and let that blow up down the line.
Im gunna have to get more details on the guy and what exactly is done to it.
He emailed me saying that he would back it up with his shop's 2 year warranty. I found his SN on ls1tech, and it seems he just signed up there and saw my post.

Ill get more info from him.

Here is a post of him selling stuff on ls1tech. One of the sponsors kind of vouched for him...so I dunno. I guess KY built his trans? Ill shot them a PM as well.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/parts-classifieds/1292295-everything-sale-must-go.html


Ask for a build sheet and reciept at the very least.

[BonzoHansen]

Only a sucker pays more than core costs on an unknown auto trans.

[enRo]

Unless I missed it here, what trans do you plan on going with?

[BonzoHansen]

Unless I missed it here, what trans do you plan on going with?

4L60E

[BonzoHansen]

Just score one from a junkyard like Contemporary Corvette over in Bristol, they usually have F-Body parts on hand. 90 day warranty and they didn't give me any grief on mine when I found the water pump shaft had been bent.

I told him he should have bought a whole DT from them with a warranty. But Al is cheap (or is it pennywise & pound foolish?)!

[LTb1ow]

I told him he should have bought a whole DT from them with a warranty. But Al is cheap (or is it pennywise & pound foolish?)!

Yea, Al mentioned they do no sell em separate. So that is not a viable option.

[BigAls87Z28]

I told him he should have bought a whole DT from them with a warranty. But Al is cheap (or is it pennywise & pound foolish?)!

What Matt said you old fool.

You people think I did no ****ing research on any of this? Im just spinning the wheel and hoping for the best?
Jesus H Christ...

I talked to Fparts and Contemp Corvette about selling me the trans itself, and they do not seperate the engine and trans.

Its not a matter of being "cheap" its a matter of budget. I dont feel like pouring every dime I have into this car, but I want to build a solid vehicle without blowing cash. Its called a budget, and I want to stick to it.

My whole outlook on the trans changed when I got the engine. I guess that people found 1 trillion dollars worth of valuable materials inside LS1's, so thier prices have gone up a decent amount, and unless I got something I had to rebuild myself, buy a junked car, or get something I didnt want, pricing was all over the map.

I thank the guys over at SSP for giving me two offers on engines and dealing with them was fantastic. I only wish I acted faster on the first offer, but I think for the little bit more money I spent, I got a better deal.

Now that the engine will produce more power then factory, Im trying to look at the best way to approach the trans. Now its not making an amazing amount of power, say 500hp+ to the wheels.

The trans guy has gotten back to me

New electronics
Hardened pump rings
New Accumulator Pistons
New Valve Body Spacer Plate
Modified Pump Assembly
Oversized Boost Valve
Set up to Precise Race Clearances
transgo hd2 Shift Kit
· High Quality Overhaul Kit, Frictions and Bushings


· Borg Warner dual cage 29 element Input Sprag


· Wide rear sun gear bushing

· Heavy duty sun gear shell “The Beast”

· High Energy 2-4 Band

· High Energy 7 friction clutch pack with full thickness Kolene Steels


· Teflon Pump Bushing

· Sonnax 4th gear billet servo kit

· Billet 2nd gear Servo kit

· Upgraded Bearing Type Reaction Carrier Shaft

· Wide 2-4 Band

· 4L65E 5 Pinion OEM Front and Rear Planetary Set

· zpac 3-4 clutch pack with full thickness Kolene Steels

· Input drum Steel sleeve prevents input drum breakage at spline area

[LTb1ow]

Al, any proof that all that was done, and done well?

[BonzoHansen]

Just busting your balls, lol. Besides, I said whole DT, not a trans! :)

[BigAls87Z28]

Al, any proof that all that was done, and done well?

Im sure he could show me a bill, but it seems he owns a trans shop. Now I know there is a lot of mark up in transmissions, on top of the fact that if he did it himself, it probably only cost him that much to build it.
My question is more along the lines that eve if it is all done the way he says it is, it was behind a turbocharged high displacement race engine. Exactly how long do I have before it blows up?
But I guess you could say that about any trans matched to an engine.

[LTb1ow]

Im sure he could show me a bill, but it seems he owns a trans shop. Now I know there is a lot of mark up in transmissions, on top of the fact that if he did it himself, it probably only cost him that much to build it.
My question is more along the lines that eve if it is all done the way he says it is, it was behind a turbocharged high displacement race engine. Exactly how long do I have before it blows up?
But I guess you could say that about any trans matched to an engine.

Cmon now, that is just sillyness.

There is no local junkyard with a 1998-2002 4L60E they can pull for you?

They did come in a lot more than just plain ole Fbods

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah I have talked to two guys on ls1tech about pull outs. Price difference is not much.

[LTb1ow]

Yeah I have talked to two guys on ls1tech about pull outs. Price difference is not much.

Yea but a pullout would be from a stock ish non drag raced engine.

I dunno, seems like a real risk, or a good gain.

[z28rob18]

i have one from a truck its a POS but would work as a core to get rebuilt

[enRo]

Al, I dunno how long you plan on waiting for a trans, but I'm pulling my 4L60e for a T56 I recently picked up soon... just don't know how soon. I'd be willing to let it go dirt cheap if you need it. It's still in the car, so if you wanted to take it for a ride to see how it runs, it's all good.

[WildBillyT]

Al, I dunno how long you plan on waiting for a trans, but I'm pulling my 4L60e for a T56 I recently picked up soon... just don't know how soon. I'd be willing to let it go dirt cheap if you need it. It's still in the car, so if you wanted to take it for a ride to see how it runs, it's all good.

^ this

[BigAls87Z28]

Thanks Noah ill let you know.

[BigAls87Z28]

If anyone wants to stop by today, let me know. Im home early from my meeting so Ill be hangin outside. Dunno what to do now that everything is cleaned out. I was gunna jack the back end up and start to prep for gas tank removal. I should get a pump and suck out that gas....

[transmaro93]

just let the tank down and then siphon it out after wards... that what i did... getting it back up with the tank full is harder than getting it out... and its a pain to siphon the gas out from the filler neck... dont think im gonna make it today though unless adam wants to pick me up... i just dont feel like driving..

[LTb1ow]

If anyone wants to stop by today, let me know. Im home early from my meeting so Ill be hangin outside. Dunno what to do now that everything is cleaned out. I was gunna jack the back end up and start to prep for gas tank removal. I should get a pump and suck out that gas....

yea got the sister's graduation nonsense and a final tmmr, so I am a no go tonight.

Friday evening I'll help you drop the rear if you haven't already.

[BigAls87Z28]

I think Im gunna skip out on it tonight. I got my Corvette valley pan in the mail today. Might give that a try.

[BigAls87Z28]

Alright guys, Im trying to think of what kind of SFC's to go with. Ive searched on TGO and it seems to run the gambit in reguards to what fits better with the LS1 swap.

Third gen guys, what have you got?

[LTb1ow]

Now, I am a newb on the lameness of third gens... but you said the LS1 fits into stock crossmember, so why the need for different SFCs?

[Mike]

exhaust routing?

[LTb1ow]

exhaust routing?

I dunno?

I am going off 4th gen style and 2 points do not come anywhere near interfering with exhaust.

I dunno. :?:

[Mike]

yeah but its run differently on a third gen...

the floors should be the same though, al could probably use 4th gen subframe connectors and it will work

[BigAls87Z28]

4th gen's front subframe is totaly different, different mounting points.

Its not a matter of a totaly different style, but there are several different times. Some run inside the frame rails, some run outside. Some are tubular, some are boxed. The problem arrises with the LT's and custom Y pipe, plus a bit of rerouting the exhaust around to meet with the I piple.
Standard y pipes for LT'ed small blocks will apparently not work. Dunno why since they would exit in the same manner, and 4th gen y's wont either/

[LTb1ow]

Looks like they all try to do a three point setup.
http://a925.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/98/l_eb0990e417626304c2650c93563625d4.jpg

So the exhaust is the issue Al?

[BigAls87Z28]

Exhaust can be an issue for some of them, tight fitment can be another. Ive looked at UMI's stuff and its pretty strong. Ive been reading over on TGO and some say its meh fitting, some say it fits like a dream.

[LTb1ow]

Exhaust can be an issue for some of them, tight fitment can be another. Ive looked at UMI's stuff and its pretty strong. Ive been reading over on TGO and some say its meh fitting, some say it fits like a dream.

Can't they be custom made?

And why are you worrying bout SFCs ?
They certainly will not help that LS1 get into that turd gen, start doing the harness.

[BigAls87Z28]

Im really leaning towards sending it out. I guess its possible to knock it out in a few days, but its gunna be a biiiitch.

Alright, looking at three different different sets
Alston Racing gets fantastic reviews on TGO
UMI and BMR are tied for reviews. Some have said that welding in both the Alstons and the BMR's make the car super ridged, but why anyone would want to add that much weight to thier car unless they are pushing some serious power is beyond me.
Price wise, Alston's are the cheapest.

[sweetbmxrider]

i bet its going to be a bitch to get sfc's to fit well on a car from 87, especially 3 points.

worry about the exhaust after you have a motor and headers in so you can actually SEE wtf is up :)

[BonzoHansen]

Cant you use the same exhaust after the cat? Maybe some custom work up front.

[BigAls87Z28]

Custom work for the y is already known. That's the problem and why I need to worry about the sub frames
now and not later. No one makes a well fitting y pipe for this swap yet.

[BigAls87Z28]

Custom work for the y is already known. That's the problem and why I need to worry about the sub frames
now and not later. No one makes a well fitting y pipe for this swap yet.

[BonzoHansen]

Welcome to modifying a car! Have one made, maybe try Mufflex. AAA Plus will tow you this far for free. :)

[WildBillyT]

Welcome to modifying a car! Have one made, maybe try Mufflex. AAA Plus will tow you this far for free. :)

If the OD of the tubing is the problem, look into having a y made with oval tubing. The equivalent of 2.5" round is only 1.75" oval. Pricey, but again- it is a swap.

[sweetbmxrider]

and thats how stock ls1's do it! even betta!

[edpontiac91]

Im really leaning towards sending it out. I guess its possible to knock it out in a few days, but its gunna be a biiiitch.

Alright, looking at three different different sets
Alston Racing gets fantastic reviews on TGO
UMI and BMR are tied for reviews. Some have said that welding in both the Alstons and the BMR's make the car super ridged, but why anyone would want to add that much weight to thier car unless they are pushing some serious power is beyond me.
Price wise, Alston's are the cheapest.

Hey Al, I am super anal about what goes into my car and by chance I wanted a set of SFC. One of the club members had a set of ALSTON's for sale and had heard they were pretty good from TGO. Had them installed (took about 4 hours to WELD them in properly) and was SUPER impressed with the way the car felt right away. It took away all of the bounce and shake over bumps and made the car feel like you were driving a much heavier car. They weight about 20 pounds but well worth the investment in what it can do to the ride quality of these rock N' roll beasts. I think all you need would be JUST the ALSTON's, as adding the UMI set would be great for a road race set-up, but overkill for a DD.

[BigAls87Z28]

What did you do for the evap? Did you pass legal inspection? PM me thatt answer.
If I swap out the gauge ill do the same for the tach just to keep it the same.

[LTb1ow]

yea and if you just swapped a new pump in the stock tank, couldn't you then run a regular either vacuum based reg or adjustable up front?

[BigAls87Z28]

Could do that, or could just get the Corvette fuel filter.
But I have the tank, and want to use the tank.

Ok, as far as the guages, Ive looked some aftermarket gauges and I think Im gunna go ahead and get new electric speedo and new tach, Sport Comps. Priced from work, it would cost the same.

[LTb1ow]

Could do that, or could just get the Corvette fuel filter.
But I have the tank, and want to use the tank.

Ok, as far as the guages, Ive looked some aftermarket gauges and I think Im gunna go ahead and get new electric speedo and new tach, Sport Comps. Priced from work, it would cost the same.

If you go that route can't you get a fuel gauge that would work with the LS1 sender?

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah, but then Id have to get all the guages...800 bucks later!
Modding the tank or the gauge seem to be the better route there.

[BigAls87Z28]

I realized that replacing the Tach removes the oil pressure gauge!! Damn it, there is no end in sight...

[LTb1ow]

Cheap stall converters = bad bad news.

Yank/Vig = good news.

Simple.

[BigAls87Z28]

I used an evap cannister from an '80-something Monte Carlo, no solenoid just an inlet and outlet. Plumbed the inlet to my car's existing steel vapor line, plumbed the outlet to the LS1s evap solenoid.

It has passed inspection at the local state-run inspection station every time. Blew cleaner tailpipe emissions than the wife's 2002 Land Rover in 2005 when I compared the printouts that year.

Hrmmmm...Guess Ill be hooking the factory charcol canister back up! good thing I didnt smash it on the ground into a million pieces.

The AutoMeter Sport-Comp speedo dial is a very close semblance to the stock speedo. Orange needle instead of white, otherwise you'd have to look very, very hard to see that they're different manufacture.

And as you've found, swap the tach = find a new place to put the oil pressure gauge.

Pic of mine in progress is attached. That little green printed circuit board at 6 o'clock was the front light, it's gone now. Set the guage back enough and it backlights via reflection off the steel bezel same as the other gauges.


hrm....looks very stock. I thought about just dropping it in the hole?

[JSPERFORMANCE]

Yeah we have done a couple...

http://jsspeedandcustom.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=973

This is just the latest one to leave the shop.
It has working a/c all factory gauges, speedo and tach are correct stock gas tank with the stock fuel pump and filter, and if you didnt lift the hood you would never know the car isnt stock. (That is until you hit the go pedal)

I am not trying to down you but you are really not approaching this swap in the correct direction. If you want it to look and work like factory it is gonna cost some $$ in parts and labor as well (spent correctly of course). I have already re-wired two swap cars that "experts" adapted the factory 4th gen harness to work in the third gen car.. they were fire hazards to say the least..

Budget is not about spending as little as possible, its about spending the right money in the right places.

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah we have done a couple...

http://jsspeedandcustom.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=973

This is just the latest one to leave the shop.
It has working a/c all factory gauges, speedo and tach are correct stock gas tank with the stock fuel pump and filter, and if you didnt lift the hood you would never know the car isnt stock. (That is until you hit the go pedal)

I am not trying to down you but you are really not approaching this swap in the correct direction. If you want it to look and work like factory it is gonna cost some $$ in parts and labor as well (spent correctly of course). I have already re-wired two swap cars that "experts" adapted the factory 4th gen harness to work in the third gen car.. they were fire hazards to say the least..

Budget is not about spending as little as possible, its about spending the right money in the right places.

Thanks Josh.

One thing that the Firebirds have over Camaros is that they have electric speedos in 87 where Camaro doesnt get it till 90. Makes that whole speedo deal different...makes me wish I had an 87 TA...
Swap looks clean Josh.

[BigAls87Z28]

The speedo is an in-dash model. I bought an extra plastic instrument housing (white part the gauges mount into) at the junkyard, opened up the rear of the speedo area, and mounted the unit in place using its two threaded studs.

Or you could just drop it into the hole, but then you'd need to connect the front light (no huge deal) and you'd have this big 5" oddball speedo sticking out of your instrument panel.

You connect it to 12VDC ignition switched, 2 grounds, and the PCM's speedo output (original purpose was for the Traction Control System or the ABS, I think) goes to the Square Wave input terminal on the speedo.

Put the speedo into self-calibration mode, drive 2.00 miles, then click it out of calibration mode. Done.


Are you saying you have to cut out the back of the white guage holder? I think this would be a good deal still. Im not 100% on that Cable X box.

[Frosty]

Like Josh said it's about spending the RIGHT $$$. Chris(the owner of that blue Firebird) spent the right $$$ on the right parts to make the swap as seamless as possible.

To do a swap like that the RIGHT way isn't cheap but worth it IMO.

[BigAls87Z28]

Eh, Im not tryng to find the cheap way out either. I want to find the best way to do things, hence the question.

[Frosty]

I wasn't saying you were being cheap or anything. ;) Was just making a general statement.

[BigAls87Z28]

I gotta see your car in person man. Thank you.

[BigAls87Z28]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs151.snc4/36918_1454366072003_1018838304_1320593_3154605_n.j pg

Engine bay is primed. Gunna sand and throw another coat of primer on to get rid of some of the real crappy spots.

The car was in an accident with my father some 20+ years ago. Sanding down some of the parts show a little body filler. Gunna hit up some of the spots, and then lay down a few coats of Bright Red! Should be a pretty sight.

[BigAls87Z28]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs153.snc4/36964_1456682609915_1018838304_1327856_2783782_n.j pg

Layed down some paint. Surprised by how close it is to the stock color.

[Blackbirdws6]

Red was the right choice. Lookin good.

[BigAls87Z28]

Thank you. Ill try to snap some shots today when I get home.

[Featherburner]

Red was the right choice. Lookin good.:nod:

[deadtrend1]

just get UMI SFC's. You really dont need to use that little third piece for it that goes above the exhaust. It 2 points will be fine.

[KirkEvil]

Im not sure why everyone thinks red was the right choice. All you can compare it to so far is a half painted engine bay against newspaper wrapped fenders....

I wanted it black :-?

[BonzoHansen]

Im not sure why everyone thinks red was the right choice. All you can compare it to so far is a half painted engine bay against newspaper wrapped fenders....

I wanted it black :-?

LOL, I wasn't going to mention the masking or lack of full dis-assembly but since you opened the door. Labor is free.

[JL8Jeff]

Im not sure why everyone thinks red was the right choice. All you can compare it to so far is a half painted engine bay against newspaper wrapped fenders....

I wanted it black :-?

LS1's are used to body color matched engine bays. :nod: Black would make people stop and think about it too much and that would take the spotlight away from the LS1!

[KirkEvil]

LS1's are used to body color matched engine bays. :nod: Black would make people stop and think about it too much and that would take the spotlight away from the LS1!

And the bright red engine bay doesnt distract you from the the engine? If you have to think about matching paints, you are too old. Al also hates 4th gens so matching paint violates his beliefs. Besides, I think it would be neat to come up looking at a turd gen engine bay in all black, then realize what powers that piece of ****.

When you see the LS1, you will **** bricks...

[LTb1ow]

Not to go toooo far off here, but he is gonna have at least three LT1 owners get that silly motor in there, is gun be oily. ;)

[BonzoHansen]

Pretty engines look best in semi-gloss black engine compartments.

[Featherburner]

I wanted it black :-?Black is played out. :-P

[BigAls87Z28]

Im not sure why everyone thinks red was the right choice. All you can compare it to so far is a half painted engine bay against newspaper wrapped fenders....

I wanted it black :-?

Its pretttty damn close. I have the correct Bright Red paint that I might spray as the last coat if its that off, but considering the outside has 22 years outside, and the engine bay is less then 24 hrs....its really close.

[BonzoHansen]

Pay Rich to buff the outside, I bet it gets even closer.

[BigAls87Z28]

I have thought about it. I am going to also repaint the hood this year, as well as FINALLY replace the headliner.
Hood was painted in the same super ****** paint that the rad support was. Stupid late 80s Land Rovers...

[sweetbmxrider]

its going to be near impossible to get it to match with a can of paint. wax/polish will help along with us dumping fluids everywhere on the install :D

Pretty engines look best in semi-gloss black engine compartments.

BAM!

[Mike]

good to see this thread just turned into the same thread as the jersey shore thread...

[LTb1ow]

good to see this thread just turned into the same thread as the jersey shore thread...

Al is in a mid point between needing tech.

And mods could always parse and mend.

[Mike]

Al is in a mid point between needing tech.

And mods could always parse and mend.

can they? they are participating..

[BigAls87Z28]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs033.ash2/35026_1460654389207_1018838304_1338747_5664301_n.j pg

These arrived yesterday.

[LTb1ow]

You drive a vette?

[BigAls87Z28]

All day! CORVETTE ENGINE!!

[Blackbirdws6]

Wait....you didn't say a vette engine was going in your car!!! This changes everything!

On a serious note, I'm assuming you will be filling in the CORVETTE and going with something a bit more custom?

[BigAls87Z28]

Why yes...yes I am. Quesiton is what color to paint the covers. I thought about going back to the red...but thats gunna be a lot of red!

[Blackbirdws6]

Why yes...yes I am. Quesiton is what color to paint the covers. I thought about going back to the red...but thats gunna be a lot of red!

Yea I wouldn't do red. I think glosss black with maybe just red camaro letters would look nice as an accent. Could throw a red stripe on there also. You get the idea.

[NastyEllEssWon]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/Jsaul83/010101.jpg



just a quick 2 second chop of what i would do...which is ironically what blackbird suggested. :nod: btw if you need the font to make an oaktag stencil for the ''camaro'' the font name is ORAMAC ;)

[Blackbirdws6]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/Jsaul83/010101.jpg



just a quick 2 second chop of what i would do...which is ironically what blackbird suggested. :nod: btw if you need the font to make an oaktag stencil for the ''camaro'' the font name is ORAMAC ;)

Just what I pictured and it is not ironic I have impeccable taste. :)

[Featherburner]

Just what I pictured and it is not ironic I have impeccable taste. :)Even if you have to say so yourself! :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

Very very close to what I want to do. I want to leave the raised stripes and 5.7 in red too.

Ok, time lines in what I want to do.

by July 8th
Old mounts removed, K painted and brackets put in
Remove and send out the harness to have redone and ready for my car and sent out
Finish painting engine bay

by July 17th
All the parts for the trans in and assembled
Purchase headers and torque converter
Start bolting things together.

by July 23rd
Decide on what to do with gas tank.
Install new Speedo
Get harness back
Prep for install

By July 30th
Install 4th gen gas tank and all new lines and fittings (if decided to go 4th gen tank)
Install engine and trans.

By August 6th
Fix all bugs and pilot runs. Inspect and insure

By August 13th
Maiden Voyage.

[BigAls87Z28]

Now, lets get a little feed back on the tank situation
Im still way up in the air over it. There are a lot of benifits, but also some sizeable drawbacks.
Ive gone over it before, but Ill bring it up again.
4th gen tank allows the tank to regulate the pressure and not an aftermarket unit.
I get a plastic tank thats a bit lighter, but I get the advantage of the bucket that keeps the pump surrounded in gas.
I also have to adapt either the sender or the gauge so that I know how much fuel is in the tank
4th gen tank also gives me an evap canister attached to the tank.
But...i cant use all that fancy stuff unless I go with a total 4th gen dash. The dash has something to do with controling the evap canister.

Now with a third gen tank, I can leave it there, and run either an aftermarket regulator, or run the Corvette fuel filter which regulates the pressure and has a built in return fitting to go back to the stock tank.

Another problem is evap and what happens.
With a 4th gen tank, I really dont know what goes on. There is an evap solinoid mounted to the side of the fuel rail. Vinny said not to remove or possible hazard as in explosion, and with any Evap system its likely that will happen.
Now if I stay with the stock tank, I guess I will have to reuse my old evap canister? But how will that be connected? I gotta start digging around TGO and LS1tech more.

[The Fixer]

4th gen tank also gives me an evap canister attached to the tank.
But...i cant use all that fancy stuff unless I go with a total 4th gen dash. The dash has something to do with controling the evap canister.

Now with a third gen tank, I can leave it there, and run either an aftermarket regulator, or run the Corvette fuel filter which regulates the pressure and has a built in return fitting to go back to the stock tank.

Another problem is evap and what happens.
With a 4th gen tank, I really dont know what goes on. There is an evap solinoid mounted to the side of the fuel rail. Vinny said not to remove or possible hazard as in explosion, and with any Evap system its likely that will happen.
Now if I stay with the stock tank, I guess I will have to reuse my old evap canister? But how will that be connected? I gotta start digging around TGO and LS1tech more.

If I were you, I'd do the whole 4th-gen dash. You'll solve your speedo issue, tach issue, oil pressure gauge issue, AND tank problem. Seems like a win in my book. Do it!

[BigAls87Z28]

I just dont want to even try to venture into that swap. So much stuff that would have to be done, lots of custom stuff. I dont like how they look either.

[BonzoHansen]

Im still way up in the air over it. There are a lot of benifits, but also some sizeable drawbacks.
Ive gone over it before, but Ill bring it up again.
4th gen tank allows the tank to regulate the pressure and not an aftermarket unit.
I get a plastic tank thats a bit lighter, but I get the advantage of the bucket that keeps the pump surrounded in gas.
I also have to adapt either the sender or the gauge so that I know how much fuel is in the tank
4th gen tank also gives me an evap canister attached to the tank.
But...i cant use all that fancy stuff unless I go with a total 4th gen dash. The dash has something to do with controlling the evap canister. I highlighted a very important pat for a street car. EFI does not like to be fuel starved.

The comment about the 4th gen dash required to use 4th gen evap can't be right. I'm going to read the book. I still don't understand why using the entire fuel system from a 4th gen doesn't work for you. My experiences still tell me GM engineers are better engineers than I am.

[BonzoHansen]

So I thumbed through my 99 Camaro service manual (ebay score $50) and it looks like the EVAP solenoids get ground from the PCM and power from a hot run/start circuit. I see nothing interesting in regards to needing a dash

http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/24/54/72/large/0996b43f80245472.gif

[BonzoHansen]

Talk to John @ speartech, I bet there is a way to make your gas gauge work with this.
http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/24/bc/8e/large/0996b43f8024bc8e.gif

[BigAls87Z28]

99 might not have the plastic tank. I thought it was 00 and up. I didn't understand the dash thing either.

[BonzoHansen]

99 does. I still have the one I pulled from the one I stripped.

[Mike]

my 99 has plastic too...

[BigAls87Z28]

Hrm I thought 00 was the change over. Oh well whatever still needs something with the dash to activate the evap because the sending unit sends a signal to the gauge which then activates the whole process. Something like that.

[BonzoHansen]

Who told you that?

[Mike]

i have had my dash out and played with every wire behind it, i dont remember any emissions related wires

[sweetbmxrider]

S244, fuel level sensor and fuel pressure sensor are on the same circuit. there's your problem.

[BigAls87Z28]

IYeah its on TGO. when I get home ill post up the correct info as I forget the correct wording.

[PolarBear]

but I get the advantage of the bucket that keeps the pump surrounded in gas.

This, and the fact your tank would never rust.


I also have to adapt either the sender or the gauge so that I know how much fuel is in the
If you are not worried about the PCM getting the proper input then it is as easy as swapping the sender board, I did it and while I was in there I did the Racetronix pump. Took me about 30 minutes for both.

Now if I stay with the stock tank, I guess I will have to reuse my old evap canister? But how will that be connected? I gotta start digging around TGO and LS1tech more.

No one answered my queestion on TGO about how the dash controls anything. From my understanding the PCM does ALL the work regarding the EVAP. IMO I think changing the resistor on the back of the fuel level gauge is the way to go in the situation. I have another cluster I can mess with and another fuel bucket I am can try, but I hadnt planned on doing any of that right now. I will get it all out this week/weekend and see what I can do, for a few dollars at Radio Shack I think this is a no brainer.


Also FYI to all, the 98 had a steel tank and 99 and up got the plastic tank.

[BigAls87Z28]

James, yeah I didnt understand how the dash did anything. It sounded as if the gauge in the factory dash sent a signal to the pcm, which would then activate the evap...if thats whats im reading right on TGO.

The advantages of the 4th gen tank is a great deal, and I already have one so that really helps things.

[BonzoHansen]

I think TGO info may be wrong on that according to my book. Reading more now, be right back...

[sweetbmxrider]

The PCM uses the fuel level sensor input in order to determine the amount of fuel in the fuel tank. The PCM disables the engine misfire diagnostic when the fuel level is too low and the EVAP system diagnostic when the fuel level is either too high or too low. The PCM also controls the fuel gauge based on the fuel level input.

it really seems like if you want to use the 4th gen tank and have your fancy emissions crap connected and working, you need to use an ls1 cluster. i'm sure there's ways around everything if you don't wanna do that.

[BonzoHansen]

S244, fuel level sensor and fuel pressure sensor are on the same circuit. there's your problem.

My initial instinct is you are looking on the wrong side of the pcm for fuel gauge reading. that is the serial out of the PCM. I'm thinking you can tap the lead right off the sender. I'm not even sure why the pcm needs fuel level info for running the engine, but it does appear to impact emissions related items. I'd bet 99.9% of the conversions out there do not use fuel level in. You can't tell me that all the LS swaps in old cars use fuel level in.

From reading the 99 service manual it appears EVAP and fuel pressure sensor work in unison to some degree. Some EVAP codes need 15%-85% fuel level as a testing condition. EVAP issues may throw off fuel pressure readings, which is based on tank pressure, not line pressure as you’d think of it. So based on 30 minutes of reading DTC codes and looking at diagrams, I think you can make both work but I’d stay as close to OE as possible and your EVAP connections need to be spot on. And I see zero evidence of feed back from the gauges. EVAP and FP readings both go to the pcm 1st, then a serieal out for fuel level to the gagues. Why would they get a reading back?


I think this is a decent primer document:
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/_res/pdf/installation_guides/ls_engines/19244807E-ROD.pdf

[BonzoHansen]

The PCM uses the fuel level sensor input in order to determine the amount of fuel in the fuel tank. The PCM disables the engine misfire diagnostic when the fuel level is too low and the EVAP system diagnostic when the fuel level is either too high or too low. The PCM also controls the fuel gauge based on the fuel level input.it really seems like if you want to use the 4th gen tank and have your fancy emissions crap connected and working, you need to use an ls1 cluster. i'm sure there's ways around everything if you don't wanna do that.

Why? That tells me the pcm feeds the gauge. I have not found anything on the opposite yet.



Al, good for you. EVAP is a zero HP loss, high gain emission control. Evaporating fuel is terrible for the air.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, then I come to this question is that what do I do? I just let it vent out?
I guess GM needed a way to have the computer be in constant check of the pressure in the system for emissions control purposes where in older cars it was more or less kind of just hoped that everything was hooked up together.

Al, good for you. EVAP is a zero HP loss, high gain emission control. Evaporating fuel is terrible for the air.

Im picking up sarcasim a bit?

[BonzoHansen]

Is speartech doing your harness? If so, call him for his $0.02.

I still think you can do the 4th gen fuel/evap swap part for part. Again, look at the e-rod instructions. pretty similar I think. with all your goofy gm nutwork at gmi can't you get a number of a gmpp tech to talk to?

[BigAls87Z28]

GM Performance Parts will know nothing
GM Performance Division was disbanded and the members were sent into each of the remaining divisions after Chap 11.

People I talk to are not engineers, they are PR/Communications people with very little contact with anyone from powertrain.

And no, Speartech is not doing my harness.

[sweetbmxrider]

listen, i'm having a little trouble thinking straight but from what i can gather you can't run the evap can without the instrument cluster. i'll try to read into it more but it just doesn't seem to be possible without all of the pieces.

evap **** is very finicky and i hate it

[BonzoHansen]

listen, i'm having a little trouble thinking straight but from what i can gather you can't run the evap can without the instrument cluster. i'll try to read into it more but it just doesn't seem to be possible without all of the pieces.

evap **** is very finicky and i hate it

I'd be curious to know as it makes no sense and the book mentions nothing in any of the related DTCs I read. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I do not see that in the book.


Al, how does evap work in your car now?

[Tru2Chevy]

The PCM uses the fuel level sensor input in order to determine the amount of fuel in the fuel tank. The PCM disables the engine misfire diagnostic when the fuel level is too low and the EVAP system diagnostic when the fuel level is either too high or too low. The PCM also controls the fuel gauge based on the fuel level input.

Is this what is throwing you off Adam?

I read this as the PCM uses the fuel level sensor input from the tank to determine the level in the tank. Then it does what it has to do with the codes based on the level in the tank, and then the PCM outputs a signal to the fuel gauge based on what it saw from the fuel level sensor in the tank.

I don't see any reason why this output from the PCM can't be used to run a stock fuel gauge in some way.

- Justin

[BonzoHansen]

Is this what is throwing you off Adam?

I read this as the PCM uses the fuel level sensor input from the tank to determine the level in the tank. Then it does what it has to do with the codes based on the level in the tank, and then the PCM outputs a signal to the fuel gauge based on what it saw from the fuel level sensor in the tank.

I don't see any reason why this output from the PCM can't be used to run a stock fuel gauge in some way.

- Justin

I don't see why the cluster is needed...but....that 'out' on the pcm is a serial out, so I assume it carries other info too. So I think that is no good.

[BigAls87Z28]

I'd be curious to know as it makes no sense and the book mentions nothing in any of the related DTCs I read.


Al, how does evap work in your car now?

There is a canister on the driver side behind the headlights. There is a vent tube that comes up from the tank to the canister. There is a connector that I assume controls what goes on with the charcol canister, with vac tubes going into the engine.

[BonzoHansen]

So it does have some sort of solenoid now? Huh.

GM makes it work for the e-rod, so you should be able to as well.

[LTb1ow]

I don't get it.. you are making this way to complicated.

Why don't you just run the silly EVAP and get an aftermarket fuel guage driven off the LS1 output?

[sweetbmxrider]

Is this what is throwing you off Adam?

I read this as the PCM uses the fuel level sensor input from the tank to determine the level in the tank. Then it does what it has to do with the codes based on the level in the tank, and then the PCM outputs a signal to the fuel gauge based on what it saw from the fuel level sensor in the tank.

I don't see any reason why this output from the PCM can't be used to run a stock fuel gauge in some way.

- Justin

I don't see why the cluster is needed...but....that 'out' on the pcm is a serial out, so I assume it carries other info too. So I think that is no good.

yeah the pcm sends class 2 info to the cluster and i am not sure if some of that wiring in the schematics is tied into the cluster. i could be completely over-thinking it which is ususally what i do.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, its been tried and as of right now it hasnt been done without the use of the 4th gen dash.

And an aftermarket or stock third gen gauge, it wont work. You have to use the 4th gen dash...dummy.

[NastyEllEssWon]

Well, its been tried and as of right now it hasnt been done without the use of the 4th gen dash.

And an aftermarket or stock third gen gauge, it wont work. You have to use the 4th gen dash...dummy.




so your saying they dont make aftermarket gauges that run off the stock ls1 fuel gauge signal??? :lol:

[BigAls87Z28]

No, the gauge is not a problem. Moddifying the sending unit or the gauge itself isnt a problem.
The problem is evap and what to do with it. Even keeping the third gen tank, the problem is what to do about evap.

[V]

i think everyone needs to take a step back and look at this issue again. I have not read up on the issue, nor do i have any direct experience with an ls1 swap, yet there are some basics. One option would be to "utilize" a 4th gen cluster, but in a different sense. You can just remove the main board and install it behind the dash or in some area as to serve a purpose of being connected but no need to actually use it. Times like this one needs to think outside the box. You could even try to replicate maybe what that circuit wants to see, i read 15-85% before, correct, if so, whats the Ohm reading or signal voltage at say 75%? you'd need to start looking into ides like that maybe. What about tuning issues? can you change a setting in the PCM to activate the EVAP circuit fulltime regardless of any possible "feedback" from the cluster?
id think looking into these things would be more productive than going back and forth about who says it will or wont work, just my own opinion.

[BigAls87Z28]

Yeah I have thought about finding and replicating the circuit or a system to mimic it. I think some have tried but end up bailing out due to complexity and cost. Some would rather just swap the dash and do it that way. There has to be an easy way to do this then swap in that god awful dash.

[sweetbmxrider]

yeah, **** evap. stick a one way filter on the hose and good night

[LTb1ow]

yeah, **** evap. stick a one way filter on the hose and good night

And have a car that rivals mine in reaking of gas at idle, yea fun. :|

I would def try to get the EVAP system working, even if its just a line hooked up to the tank and a manual operated noid.. :nod:

[BigAls87Z28]

I was trying to think on how I can keep the stock canister working. I dunno if the LS1 computer can be used to switch the solinoid.
Im gunna keep looking on TGO and see what some have done.

[PolarBear]

Im picking up sarcasim a bit?

I think he is being genuine as he wouldnt bother with looking stuff up if he didnt care. Scott and I see eye to eye on some of the emission related stuff, I want to put cats on my 73 because I hate the smell of the exhaust without them and with the newer technology adding them doesnt hurt the performance that much. Two high flow cats on a true dual exhaust isnt going to cost anythng but high RPM power, something which my BBC isnt going to see too often.

Al, how does evap work in your car now?

In theory all the EVAP stuff is the same, controlled by the PCM at some point. The newer car is just using more input as to when and how it should be comannded. IIRC the TPI/TBI/MPFI command EVAP under light cruise after the car is in closed loop?
The physical hookup is also basically the same, except the canister is on the tank in the 99-02 cars and in the 3rd gen it was in the engine compartment. I am on the same page here as I left the canister and everything on my 4th gen tank when I put it in. In time I had planned on running the wires to the back of the car and hook the 4th gen canister to the 7730 computer, it is after all just a solenoid that controls this.

The problem Al is that if what is said is true about the cluster you are not goign to be able to get the EVAP to work with or without the 4th gen tank. If this is the case there really isnt too many cons inusing the 4th gen tank instead. If you want to screw the PCM you can swap out the resistor board on the bucket and get the correct value for the level or you can swap out the resistors in the cluster to utilize the 4th gen level and possibly get the EVAP to work later. As far as the lines go the 4th gen stuff almost bolts right in. I think you just need a few different fittings and you can use the 3rd gen hard lines and everything. You would basically just disregard the return line from the 3rd gen and use the stock feed line, and then put a short hose at the engine compartment. Alternatively you can also run a braided line all the way to the front of the car and get more volume if you decide to make big power later. Either way you can do the 4th gen tank fairly easy. If you want to come see my setup as is now you can, or I can dig all the parts up this weekend and try to set it out in mockup. The only part I dont have is the stock feed line from the filter to the engine compartment. IIRC the "T" block from the 4th gen setup screws into the stock 3rd gen filter, you just have to relocate the 3rd gen fuel filter bracket slightly.
I did this a while ago but it really sint rocket science, I think people are overthinking the whole covette filter thing too.

I am also assuming "Pocket" is going to do you r harness now?

[BonzoHansen]

Im picking up sarcasim a bit?

Bear is correct, 0% zero sarcasm, 100% props.

[PolarBear]

Nice guy and very helpful, but extending the PCM connection by soldering extra wire to all the pins is (IMHO) a bad approach.

Care to elaborate? IMO I would have no problem doing that, as long as one is a competent solderer

[BonzoHansen]

As for the evap can, I just put in an '85 or whatever Monte Carlo evap can that had no solenoid as designed. Just an inlet from the tank, and an outlet to the engine. I connected that to the LS1 evap solenoid, even though the PCM is not likely to switch it.

No gassy smell under-hood since 2004. Fuel tank holds pressure and hisses when the filler cap is unscrewed.I was thinking along those lines, like the one in my 77. That is why I asked about the stock canister

[BonzoHansen]

Speartech worked for Delphi and knows his shiite. If I was doing major harness surgery, I'd pay him to do it.his rep is very good.

[BigAls87Z28]

Careful with that Pocket guy, he's on LS1Tech begging for help figuring out why his swap car won't run right...

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagnostics-tuning/1262498-drivability-problems.html

Nice guy and very helpful, but extending the PCM connection by soldering extra wire to all the pins is (IMHO) a bad approach.

As for the evap can, I just put in an '85 or whatever Monte Carlo evap can that had no solenoid as designed. Just an inlet from the tank, and an outlet to the engine. I connected that to the LS1 evap solenoid, even though the PCM is not likely to switch it.

No gassy smell under-hood since 2004. Fuel tank holds pressure and hisses when the filler cap is unscrewed.

Even a slight amount of additional resistance on many of the sensor input circuits will throw off the PCM and cause all manner of chaos. Going to town w/ your soldering iron to extend the PCM leads for relocation like Pocket did is therefore a bad idea.

He may have fixed it by now but he's keeping quiet about it.

Speartech worked for Delphi and knows his shiite. If I was doing major harness surgery, I'd pay him to do it.


I cant imagine solder giving that much resistance, or any more then what you would see from extending the harness an extra 3ft to sit inside the car, no?

Ive tossed around the idea of going with a Speartech harness...but thats a large chunk of change to drop. If I could sell more of my stuff, I could free up a bit more money for the budget, but...its another 350 bucks!
Ill toss it around.

Back to the tank.
I still like all the advantages of teh 4th gen tank. Reading on TGO, it seems that the fumes are vented through the onboard charcol canister, with or without evap, so I guess that can do a good enough job scrubbing the fuel smell. I gotta look at that picture of the top of the 4th gen tank again.

[BonzoHansen]

when voltages are read in the tenths of volts and less it matters.

[BigAls87Z28]

I guess so, but again wouldnt that also be effected in lengthened harness? I guess the two of them combined cause problems.

[Frosty]

Speartech worked for Delphi and knows his shiite. If I was doing major harness surgery, I'd pay him to do it.

Absolutely no question about that....Speartech FTW, if I was doing a late model motor transplant I'd buck up and the harness from him or have him modify mine.

He knows his stuff and he stands by his work.

[LTb1ow]

Can't you tune out the EVAP and pressure sensor stuff, then run the third gen tank with the charcoal canister mentioned above?

[PolarBear]

I cant imagine solder giving that much resistance,

This is aimed more toward crainholio but solder SHOULDNT add ANY resistance to a circuit, again that is why I stated when someone is competent soldering. I will agree, however that you should use the proper gauge wire, going smaller is NEVER a good idea. Going a wire size up will decrease resistance.

Ive tossed around the idea of going with a Speartech harness...but thats a large chunk of change to drop. If I could sell more of my stuff, I could free up a bit more money for the budget, but...its another 350 bucks!
Ill toss it around.

More like $450 for a re-work and $750 for new, no thanks. I may just leave the computer in the engine compartment on mine..... :-?

[BigAls87Z28]

450 to redo a harness I send them or 750 to have them just send me a new one?
I think Im gunna pull the trigger on the Speartech...gotta sell these damn heads!

[BonzoHansen]

450 to redo a harness I send them or 750 to have them just send me a new one?
I think Im gunna pull the trigger on the Speartech...gotta sell these damn heads!

I'd call him and pick his brain about your fuel & evap questions. You have to take advantage of experienced knowledge like that.

[PolarBear]

Yup, properly applied solder has negligible effect on net resistance. The guy's use of non-same wire gauge was my point. And who knows how good/bad he is at soldering. The thing looks like a hack job, the engine won't run properly, and he can't figure out why.

I only, kind of, disagree only because he does quite a few according to others on TGO but I am not discounting that his problem in that thread isnt related to the harness somehow. In one of the other threads he put a hole in the FW so he didnt have to lengthen the harness? Are these the same cars?

I was wondering around on Waytech's site a while ago and they used to sell ALL the proper color coded wire and insulation type like GM uses but now I cant find anything but the solid colors. I was kicking around the idea of buying spools of wire and making my own harness, the connectors get expensive quickly though. If successful I would have all the wire needed to make more harnesess......

[BigAls87Z28]

Alright quick and easy one...hopefully.

1 3/4 headers come in either 2.5 or 3 inch collectors. Im feeling 2.5 for clearance issues. Will I see that much of a difference with the extra half inch?

[BonzoHansen]

are you doing 3" exhaust?

[BigAls87Z28]

It has a 3 inch exhaust on it already. But there is still a whole y pipe between the two

[KirkEvil]

I think you should stay with the 3". Choking the motor and adding the hassle of adapting to the 2.5" to 3" is not worth gained clearance. It will have to be custom fabricated anyway right? That should get you clearance.

Also, 2.5" and 3" dont seem that different but if you look at cross sectional area its 4.91 sq. in versus 7.07 sq. in. Thats a gain of 43% cross sectional area even though its only 0.5" larger diameter! Much larger area if you multiply that by the length of pipe...

[BonzoHansen]

I'd go 3 as well. if no other reason going to a 3" y-pipe later would be easier.

[BigAls87Z28]

Well, the Y can be made of 2x2.5's into a 3 inch section that attaches to the cat, and then into the I pipe.

The y will make up any difference in size from the LT's to the cat,

[sweetbmxrider]

its a 1/4" of clearance.....

[PolarBear]

its a 1/4" of clearance.....

IMO while the above statement is true, he isnt going to gain ANYTHING from going to 3" collectors. Dual 2.5" into a 3" is more than most people need for the street, if you are looking for EVERY horse you can possibly get on the track it would be beneficial.

[BigAls87Z28]

It does have a bit of work done to it, so maybe I should go with the 3 inch. I just figured that 3 inch collectors going into 1 3 inch pipe would cause soem sort of bottle neck into the cat.

[LTb1ow]

It does have a bit of work done to it, so maybe I should go with the 3 inch. I just figured that 3 inch collectors going into 1 3 inch pipe would cause soem sort of bottle neck into the cat.

And hence, !cat.8-)

But in all seriousness, you plan on sticking one cat in this mess?

Yea... good luck, if it doesn't clog, its gonna do nothing but be a hindrance to flow.

Get two three inch cats and stick in in the Y pipe. Win.

[BonzoHansen]

why would it clog?

[BigAls87Z28]

I dont see why high flow CC's would clog flow. Its not like its lard. Its gas.

[WildBillyT]

I dont see why high flow CC's would clog flow. Its not like its lard. Its gas.

Would one 3" cat have enough cfm for two banks of LS1 cyl's?

[BigAls87Z28]

Hrmmm...have thought about that too.

[BonzoHansen]

Would one 3" cat have enough cfm for two banks of LS1 cyl's?

Are they different from SBC cylinders? There are a lot of fast SBC powered cars out there blowing through a single 3” cat.

[LTb1ow]

why would it clog?

A single cat after the Y?

Seems like it would never get hot and never do as it should and clean the exhaust gases, clog may have been an overstatement. :|

Granted that thought was all from research I did when I had a dream to run cats as well, and from what I read a single cat after an ORY will never get warm enough to properly scrub the exhaust gas.

So Al will prob line his catback with catalytic converters. Back pressure! :lol:

[WildBillyT]

If the rule of thumb is 2.2 cfm per 1 hp (best guess I found doing a few searches) you would need 770 cfm for a 350hp engine to free flow. That would be two cats, since one 3" unit (even the least restrictive ones) seem to top out in the 500s.

I guess if there is backpressure from the mufflers I guess it does not matter? And I do not doubt that there are fast cars out there running on a single cat. But is that optimal or just not robbing enough to matter?

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=104735
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/exhaust/0505phr_exh/index1.html



Granted that thought was all from research I did when I had a dream to run cats as well, and from what I read a single cat after an ORY will never get warm enough to properly scrub the exhaust gas.


This is a different problem.

[BonzoHansen]

Isn't the cat after the Y in 3rd gens already? Or is this y going to push the cat even further away? What about nice & simple 3"collectors to 3" cats to y?

It appears Al's budget is tight which is what made me think single cat like the OE setup. Is he building a fast street car or a race car? If he leaves 10hp on the table in a street car because his budget does not allow more, so what? You can't always chase the theoretical best when the budget is limited. He can always go back and change it later as funds allow.

[LTb1ow]

Isn't the cat after the Y in 3rd gens already? Or is this y going to push the cat even further away? What about nice & simple 3"collectors to 3" cats to y?

It appears Al's budget is tight which is what made me think single cat like the OE setup. Is he building a fast street car or a race car? If he leaves 10hp on the table in a street car because his budget does not allow more, so what? You can't always chase the theoretical best when the budget is limited. He can always go back and change it later as funds allow.

But he is not doing an OE setup, he is doing long tubes. I don't wanna be argumentative, but LTs will push the stock location of the cat way past where it was, and since you can no longer have the cat straight after the merge, the merge of the ORY will stick the cat pretty far back. I just would hate to see Al throw all this together and then have a cat that does nothing but cause a flow blockage.

An OE Y pipe allows for both manifolds to dump together relatively close to the general area after both manifolds, LTs will not allow that, so to place the cat an equal distance from each header it will need to be far back, or you run two.

I'll shut up now.

[BonzoHansen]

I'm just asking/thinking out loud. That is why I was asking. How bad is the room if you do cats right off the collectors? Will that make the y-pipe impossible?

[WildBillyT]

Isn't the cat after the Y in 3rd gens already? Or is this y going to push the cat even further away? What about nice & simple 3"collectors to 3" cats to y?

It appears Al's budget is tight which is what made me think single cat like the OE setup. Is he building a fast street car or a race car? If he leaves 10hp on the table in a street car because his budget does not allow more, so what? You can't always chase the theoretical best when the budget is limited. He can always go back and change it later as funds allow.

I dunno. I just saw going from two cats from the factory to a single cat (even a high-flow) as a downgrade from stock, flow wise. A very tight budget trumps it all though.

[BonzoHansen]

I dunno. I just saw going from two cats from the factory to a single cat (even a high-flow) as a downgrade from stock, flow wise. A very tight budget trumps it all though.

You ever see a stock 4th gen y-pipe? It's ugly.

[WildBillyT]

You ever see a stock 4th gen y-pipe? It's ugly.

Yup. But as crappy as it is, each half of the y only has to deal with 4 cyls. Again, if the budget is very tight then I am off target. A single 3" high flow will be fine.

[Frosty]

Cost vs. benefit IMO. Lets say your theory is correct...you figure..what? A 5-8hp difference? Would that be worth the amount of $$$ he'd need to spend? I can't imagine having that custom stuff made being cheap...not to mention a decent cat is $150-200.

[LTb1ow]

I'm just asking/thinking out loud. That is why I was asking. How bad is the room if you do cats right off the collectors? Will that make the y-pipe impossible?

I know with 4th gens it is possible to stick a pair of cats in the Y pipe with no issue, but 3rd gens are a mystery to me.

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ProductImages/ls1conversion/Ls13rdgenheadersnew2.jpg

Those are Hawks LS1 swap headers... WOW... does not look fun at all Al...

But on these, it looks doable to cut out a section of the ORY and weld in some cats...
http://exit3.i-55.com/~davidlt/exhaust6.jpg