Not this again.

[LS1ow]

Do you have another idea for DS loop? The one that comes on the TA is gonna be a tight fit. You can run without one at track rentals because they don’t do much “teching” but you may have issues on regular race nights. Along with they are good to have especially with a stock DS.

I’ve already given my fab guy a heads up he may have to do some work for me shortly. The company that makes the exhaust is also getting ready to release suspension parts, and a chassis tq arm that fits specifically with their duals is one of the parts. But I’m not sure how I feel about running something as important as a tq arm from them. Granted I have headers and a full exhaust from them, but that’s kinda like whatever. If it fails it fails. A tq arm id like to know I’m not a product tester

[MDSheds_SS]

I’ve already given my fab guy a heads up he may have to do some work for me shortly. The company that makes the exhaust is also getting ready to release suspension parts, and a chassis tq arm that fits specifically with their duals is one of the parts. But I’m not sure how I feel about running something as important as a tq arm from them. Granted I have headers and a full exhaust from them, but that’s kinda like whatever. If it fails it fails. A tq arm id like to know I’m not a product tester

You gotta 50/50 chance....either the TA breaks or the 10 bolt.

[LTb1ow]

With his luck, they both would break and somehow break the windshield.

[LS1ow]

If the windshield breaks or any major catastrophic happens everyone gets invited up to my shop to help turn it into a Kart. Move over Leeroy

[wretched73]

Me gusta

[LTb1ow]

Leeeeeeeeeerooooooy Jenkins

[LS1ow]

Finished up exhaust install for the most part. didnt have anyone to help so tips arent perfect but i tried to get them close. Just need to align them and were good.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4795/26898698638_428300243c_z.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4785/25898196207_931a465b01_z.jpg

[Featherburner]

How does it sound?

[Blackbirdws6]

How does it sound?

Like 'murica

[LS1ow]

How does it sound?

not sure, car started, ran for 7 seconds and shut off lmao going to elaborate on that when work slows a bit.

[Featherburner]

Like 'muricaApparently, 'murica is muted!:lol:

[Blackbirdws6]

Apparently, 'murica is muted!:lol:

Not if you have the Beggster available direct.

[LS1ow]

Apparently, 'murica is muted!:lol:

Currently yes, but a few button clicks should get it back to this in no time.

https://assets.rbl.ms/14043635/980x.jpg

[LS1ow]

Here is vid of attempted Chugga Chugga. besides the obvious smoking and running like butt, it stunk of fuel.

Back when i was diaging the no start issue, i borrowed a set of stock injectors from
Mike, swapped them in and changed the tune for them. Got the car started, and injectors were not the issue. So swapped back to the 36lb GTP injectors. However, still never switched the tune. Hoping that once the tune is set for the 36lbs, it will idle much nicer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0X-QAyaZM

[MDSheds_SS]

Sounds good and streetable. Almost ready for burnout wheelies!

[LTb1ow]

Sounds good man

[qwikz28]

Sounds mean

[LS1ow]

Sounds good man


notsureifsrs

[sweetbmxrider]

Needs moar air batman!

[LS1ow]

Update:

I’ve tried on size medium shirts that are closer to fitting than my tq arm and DS loop.

[LTb1ow]

go sleeves less, suns out guns out bro

[MDSheds_SS]

http://a65.tinypic.com/2mgt43s.jpg

[LS1ow]

http://a65.tinypic.com/2mgt43s.jpg

Hmmm... that may work!

[LS1ow]

MWC Tq Arm ordered.

[LS1ow]

after not hearing anything from them since i placed the order thursday, called MWC on monday, were told they were waiting on heim joints and that it was going to be a few days.

[MDSheds_SS]

You better NOT be doing that same rain dance that you pulled off on Racewars!!!

[LS1ow]

Meats4Streets arrived today. Not my number 1 tire choice, but they were on close out threw my wholesale tire program. $133 per tire for 315 drag radials, i cant complain.

315/35/r17 Toyo Proxes TQ Drag Radials.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/813/26102957717_30340b9259_z.jpg

[Blackbirdws6]

But will they drift?

[LS1ow]

But will they drift?

BLS idk how much more of this drifting peer pressure i can take, im a few words away from a Flipzco order.

[Blackbirdws6]

BLS idk how much more of this drifting peer pressure i can take, im a few words away from a Flipzco order.

Make it go 8's, 9's or 10's then embrace the drift life. Cleetus style.

[MDSheds_SS]

Thought you had 15” race stars? You have 2 sets of DRs?

[LS1ow]

Thought you had 15” race stars? You have 2 sets of DRs?

The Race stars are work shoes. These will be on the car for normal driving, mounting them on my ZR1 wheels(even though i hate those wheels) so i dont blow threw my Hoosiers driving the car to work and misc during the summer. I didnt want to throw a plain jane summer tire on the car, i want something that wont just turn to smoke if i roll in it off a light lol

[MDSheds_SS]

Rock those Hoosiers all day, everyday, YOLO... Bro...YOLO lol

[LS1ow]

While buttoning up the interior stuff i stumbled across a new problem. As you may remember i had some issues with the shift linkage on the car, so i replaced the cable with a brand new GM unit. Put trans itself in N and put shift assembly in N as well, and popped on the new cable.

Runs threw the gears okay, but the button itself is getting stuck down. I pulled the shift knob off and saw the white "stem" was not returning back up as far is it should. So i can pull the car out of part without touching the button. Also it doesnt always pop back up when shifted into gear. So i was able to pull the shifter from the park position, down to 1 and all the way back up to park about 8 out of 10 times. The other 2 it would get caught in R, but still allow me to go from 1,2,D,OD straight into reverse. None of the gear engagements felt that solid either.

I am able to put the car in say N, pull the stem up with pliers, and it will be locked out of going into R as it should. Same with putting it in R, if i pull the stem up with pliers it will function as normal.

So pretty much is there any adjustment in this? It deffinatly feels like the stem is binding and will not freely return to the top as it should.

[The_Bishop]

There a visible spring that's maybe busted?

[LS1ow]

There a visible spring that's maybe busted?

not that i noticed but could be. I would think if anything the spring is internal. Ill prob pull the upper console back off again today and see

[LTb1ow]

Check the cable running up to steering column for kinks or anything pressing against it.

[LS1ow]

Check the cable running up to steering column for kinks or anything pressing against it.

Cable to steering Column? huh.

[LS1ow]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/875/40348558554_497b823e8c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/24tsUJE)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/24tsUJE) by mickey beggs (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150794795@N08/), on Flickr

i havent listened with volume, so if there is any, dont mind the heavy breathing. Im hefty.

[Jersey Mike]

Serious question: what happens when you wack the side of shifter stick? Does the white stem (plunger?) pop up?

[LTb1ow]

Cable to steering Column? huh.

steering column, brake pedal, potato, tomato,

[qwikz28]

Lube? Works for me when my little white stick causes friction going in and out.

[LS1ow]

Serious question: what happens when you wack the side of shifter stick? Does the white stem (plunger?) pop up?

That is a pretty good idea, i have read that its pretty easy to bend the stick itself. Maybe i bent it.

Lube? Works for me when my little white stick causes friction going in and out.

:lol: I applied some liquid graphite, as it was the only thing i had that was safe for use on plastic, didnt make an immediate impact, but ill check again today.

[Jersey Mike]

I'm serious. While the shift plunger is stuck in its depressed state, give the side of the stick a smack or two with the palm of your hand. Report back.

[LS1ow]

I'm serious. While the shift plunger is stuck in its depressed state, give the side of the stick a smack or two with the palm of your hand. Report back.

I was being genuine when i said it was a good idea !

[sweetbmxrider]

I'd use the lube.

[wretched73]

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m-9KOUdYB0xEP8Ww6ZrMx8A.jpg

It is time

[LS1ow]

After messing around with it a bit yesterday i came to the conclusion it was a bit bend, so i messed with it using a pair of channel locks and got it all situated. Works perfect.

TQ Arm left MWC last night, so it should be here for weekend install.

[LS1ow]

Got this fine specimen from UPS...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/786/41187555331_51518d5791_z.jpg

aaand it doesnt fit. :nick::nick::nick:

But its really my own fault. I have UMI 3 point SFCs on the car, so they bolt in the middle the same spot as the TQ arm. In order to have clearance for the true duals, i have to "sandwich" the TQ arm mount between the chassis and the SFCs. Even with the TQ arm mount flat against the body it is a tight clear for the exhaust.

However, the driver side of the TD X member has a very short flange to bolt. While the driver side has a large one. As you'll see below.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/808/41188239951_a8758e0395_z.jpg

the SCFs have larger plate, like the one of the pass side of the TQ arm mount, on both sides. So i actually cant slide the TQ arm under the SFC due to the TQ arm plate being to "shallow"

And i know you guys are prob just thinking, just bolt it on top of the SFCs instead of sandwiching it between... cant, then it doesnt clear the exhaust

Its hard to explain so ill grab some pics later. Maybe you guys can help brainstorm a solution.

[MDSheds_SS]

Remove SFC, insert into storage closet for later use, aka never. They are added weight, and not needed for the mods you have. Your 10 bolt will break before your car will twist from lack of sub frame connectors. Not taking a shot at your 10 bolt just giving my opinion. If you wanna keep the car from twisting put a cage in it. Again just my 2 cents. Others may have better ideas and different opinions.

[LS1ow]

Remove SFC, insert into storage closet for later use, aka never. They are added weight, and not needed for the mods you have. Your 10 bolt will break before your car will twist from lack of sub frame connectors. Not taking a shot at your 10 bolt just giving my opinion. If you wanna keep the car from twisting put a cage in it. Again just my 2 cents. Others may have better ideas and different opinions.

I was thinking about tossing the 3 points and picking up a set of regular 2 point ones, prob the MWC ones.

No cage for this thing for a long time hopefully. But we shall see.

[LS1ow]

Need some opinions before i waste my time with a trip to the fab shop. I was thinking maybe i can modify the X member to bolt up with the SFCs between the X member and the chassis. What i thought its what i drew with crayon in MS paint below,

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/791/27314936148_8dfab5eb8e_z.jpg

Pretty much hack the passenger side of the X member off, and rebuild using some sort of flat plate. I remember my old DS loop being just flat steel, not tube. But then again, a DS loop really doesnt take any force. I would imagine a TQ Arm X member takes some serious stress.(even though the angles on this X member are just look like they were made by smushing) Do you fancy pants engineering folk think it will work?

DS loop in question.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/obj/OTVCQjUwRkIxNUNFRjdFMkUwQjg6ODhmZGVmYzhiMTJkZmE4Yz Y1YmE5MzgzNWJmMDJmNDk6Ojo6OjA=

[sweetbmxrider]

I'd go with 2 point sfc's. You have a chance to sell what you have and reinvest into something that will work with what you got.

[LTb1ow]

Ditch the 3pts and install un modified MWC stuff.

Or hell, if you are in the ruining mood, just chop the 3 pt SFC down to 2 pt ones.

[LS1ow]

I MAY be able to shave 1/2" or so off the driver SFC bolting plate and slide the X member by to make it work. Will check and advise after work.

[LS1ow]

so i found this for sale...

https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/parts-classifieds/702878d1522862732-procharger-f1x-head-unit-ccw-3ec0c5e6-d990-4cd0-ac42-ea351088baa1.jpeg

[Blackbirdws6]

Laptop looks beat to hell and table is out of style. Pass...

[LTb1ow]

Does it have USB-C?

[wretched73]

How much shaft play does that have?

[LS1ow]

Does it have USB-C?

dont even know what that is.

How much shaft play does that have?

None, only thing it plays is America the beautiful.

[MDSheds_SS]

so i found this for sale...

https://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/parts-classifieds/702878d1522862732-procharger-f1x-head-unit-ccw-3ec0c5e6-d990-4cd0-ac42-ea351088baa1.jpeg

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/d/ls1-fbody-hotside/6533308368.html
Just sayin...

[qwikz28]

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/d/ls1-fbody-hotside/6533308368.html
Just sayin...

"new in nox"

I'm sold.

[sweetbmxrider]

Why doesn't this build have a youtube channel?

[wretched73]

Why doesn't this build have a youtube channel?

Youtube's content policy does not allow for sexual content

[LS1ow]

Okay guys, picked up my trans dipstick tube last night so now i SHOULD have everything needed. Need to throw the dipstick tube in and throw the X pipe back on. Other than that stuff, can we compile a list of sorts of things i should check before car is placed back on ground for (hopefully) the final time?

Only things i can think of off top of my head are

-Exhaust clamps are tight
-O2 sensors are tight
-Trans cooler lines secured and out of way

[wretched73]

-Nut and bolt everything

[Jersey Mike]

Toss one of these on that dipstick tube so it's not dancing all over the place


http://www.jttproducts.com/resize/Shared/Images/Product/Santoprene-Insulated-Cable-Clamps/santoprene_clamp.jpg?bw=500&bh=500

[Jersey Mike]

Make sure all your suspension components are torqued down.
Tidy up any harnesses or lines that may get caught up on belts or armadillos.
Do a once over pass on driveshaft, trans crossmember and kmember bolts.
Make sure you've pulled the ice pick out of the rear seat belt holes.
Do you believe in heat shields?
Bumper and fender hardware are all on?
Have you painted your trans pan pink yet?

[sweetbmxrider]

Is the world ready for so much 'Murica?

[MDSheds_SS]

Isn’t that why they invited the term “shakedown run” drop er down and let er rip

[LTb1ow]

There can only be one pink trans pan.

[sweetbmxrider]

But how many blue drive shafts?

[LTb1ow]

Only one.

[LS1ow]

Ok so heres were we are at.

It has been a pretty hectic few weeks at the beggs household. 2, ill call them, family emergencies back to back rendered me very busy handling other things.

Last we left off, i had to ditch the 3 point SFCs due to not working with my torque arm. Pulled them off, try to install X member, and STILL contacts the exhaust. Right at the X cross over. So i pulled the exhaust back off, and had to do some reshaping. Clamped down the 4 ends of the X pipe to my bench and went at it with a lot of heat, a mallet, and after a few burns a pair of gloves. :rofl: Was able to clearance the pipe. Barely had to form it really, it was just touching. Now there is about the thiccness of iphone clearance.

Today i wont have time due continuing handling newly acquired duties, but tmmr i should have time to throw the rest of the exhaust back together.

DS is finally in as well. Need one of my friends to come by to help bleed the brakes, and then i should be able to get it rollin.

[MDSheds_SS]

Was hoping you would be ready to roll for the track day, but I understand family comes first. Keep on wrenching man, your almost there. T-Top season is weeks away.

[LS1ow]

Saturday was supposed to be the day i drove the car for the first time, and i gotta say... it was close. There was many issues me and my group of friends with dealt with. Admit-ably, most of which(jk all of them) were my fault. Heres how the day went, from start to finish.

First order of the day:
Charge the battery
Bleed the brakes

Charging the battery went painless, not much to go wrong there.

Bleeding brakes, whole different story. when swapping the to the tubular K and A arms i obviously had to pull the brake lines. When i did, i called up Napa and had them deliver me some replacement crush washers for the banjo bolts to the calipers. I was a bit skeptic bc they seemed larger than what came off. But i tossed them on and forgot about them... Until we pumped the pedal to get brake pressure for me to take the wheels off, and brake fluid began to POUR out of both banjo bolts.

Pulled the bolts and washers, found some specs online, indeed they are to large. There is like a grove they sit in on the caliper, they were too large to fit in. Napa, Autozone nor pepboys were able to provide me with the proper ones. So bleeding brakes and driving the car was out of the question.

New crush washers received today from Chevy Dealer

Spend the next hour or so just cleaning up and organizing while i waiting for my Tuner to come over and get this thing going.

Tuner arrives.

Nishan shows up and gets to work. First and fore most, loads up a tune that accounts for the GTP injectors that are in the car. The same injectors were originally in the car, but i swapped to stockers to diagnose and eliminate that the injectors were the cause of my issues. GTP injectors run at #41 at Fbody fuel pressure.

Tune loads up, car fires right up. Runs BETTER, but not that good. He spends a few more mins looking over what im guessing is fuel tables? Lets out and "oooOooOOoh" loads the tune up. Fires, running even better.

At this point the car runs for about 30-45 seconds and lets outa HUGE backfire. Nish shuts the car off.

Now he is questioning me about my MAF set up. I had a 85mm truck MAF on it, and he is suspecting it is giving me issues. Thankfully i had a stock MAF still, threw it on.

Went to fire up the car to a TERRIBLE sound. Crawled under the car to find the ear broke off the starter. Pulled the start off, thankfully had one sitting around as well. Not sure its the exact correct one, but it worked.

Fired the car up and it idled on its own for the first time. Idles a bit high, but upon inspection i think its just due to the set screw on the TB.

https://youtu.be/UtH9e3YrSOM

idled for about a minute, and while bleeding the cooling system, sprung a leak. It is leaking right from were the case of the EWP bolts together. So we had to shut it down for the day. I drained the coolant and pulled the pump off. Spoke to Mezieres today, they have a seal kit available. So ordered that up.

[sweetbmxrider]

https://clarkbunch.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/so-close.gif?w=640

[LS1ow]

Nothing better to do while i wait for parts to arrive, so i played with some vinyl. Not sure how itll look on the car, but well see!


Ill get some pics of it installed this weekend once i get the exhaust tips aligned and then decide if i wanna stay with the wrapped one, or go back to regular black.


Before-

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4785/25898196207_931a465b01_z.jpg

Now

Getting ready for wrap.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/977/27856719418_f108f496e0_z.jpg

Taking shape.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/867/27856721658_0c01d5c2a2_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/863/41725514131_c7915259fd_z.jpg

Reflective inlays added.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/872/39918088620_64e67cb46b_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/825/27856723568_b49ff20f14_z.jpg

[Blackbirdws6]

Love it....

[MDSheds_SS]

👍🏻 Looks good

[LS1ow]

Also hit my daily wheels with some satin black. Couldn't take the gloss black w. polished lip look.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/945/39933313600_e9395e9197_z.jpg

And threw on the 315s after they dried.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/907/41023053514_562d8d1408_z.jpg

[LTb1ow]

Looking good, get it running bro

[LS1ow]

Seal kit for the EWP showed up, so i tore it down and found the issue.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/978/41041423184_519473a966_z.jpg

Crack in the gasket right were the leak was coming threw the case.

Heres what the case looks like for anyone thats curious. :nick::nick:

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/959/41023053804_1049d77c9e_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/963/27867827138_6392112c75_z.jpg

The pump hasnt seen coolant in what im gunna assume is 3ish years? Ive had it for a year, and previous to that it was on Kirks car, so whenever that monster went back to the sea is the last time it had fluid.

[ar0ck]

I’m loving the digital wrap, sick! Can’t wait to see this on the road!

[LTb1ow]

Updates on first cruise?

[Blackbirdws6]

Updates on first cruise?

We leave on Sunday. Gina is looking forward to it. :-P

[LS1ow]

Cars & coffee Sunday @ garden state plaza mall is kinda the goal right now.

[Jersey Mike]

Cars & coffee Sunday @ garden state plaza mall is kinda the goal right now.

Fair warning: Even if the weather does hold out, I would recommend skipping this one.

It was a ****-show last year. Getting in was an ordeal, a crowd of 7,000+ made it tough to actually take in the majority of the cars in attendance, and the roped-off-red-carpeted area came off as super douchey. If a Saturday night at the NYIAS is your scene, then this will be a treat. Otherwise, don't lose any sleep trying to limp your car over to this particular one.

[qwikz28]

Fair warning: Even if the weather does hold out, I would recommend skipping this one.

It was a ****-show last year. Getting in was an ordeal, a crowd of 7,000+ made it tough to actually take in the majority of the cars in attendance, and the roped-off-red-carpeted area came off as super douchey. If a Saturday night at the NYIAS is your scene, then this will be a treat. Otherwise, don't lose any sleep trying to limp your car over to this particular one.

Yeah definitely disagree. That was a great show last year.

[MDSheds_SS]

Did you make the show? 1st run in the books?

[Blackbirdws6]

Did you make the show? 1st run in the books?

This....

[LS1ow]

Literally just waiting on someone to come over and help me bleed my brakes. lol

[ar0ck]

Literally just waiting on someone to come over and help me bleed my brakes. lol

Ive got a cheap blow-through kit from Harbor Freight I could bring by tomorrow after work. Text me

[qwikz28]

I have a Motiv kit if you need.

[LS1ow]

Alright so...

Brakes are bleed and feel nice(from a stationary position atleast)

I do have 1 potentially 2 new issues however. I went to start the car for the first time in about 2 weeks, and it doesnt want to run anymore. Now i did close the TB screw a bit in an effort to lower the idle. But i counted the turns of the bolt so after it didnt want to run i reverted it back to how it was while it was running with just the high idle. And still nothing.

so thats 1 issue.

The other may be related, but i feel like a battery shouldn't die as quick as this one does. So i think i may have a draw

[LTb1ow]

IAC all clean and what not?

[LS1ow]

Kept messing with the set screw and got it to a point were it would start and idle on its own. Soon as pretty much any throttle was applied it would break up.

good news is however, it moved under its own power for the first time.

Obligatory 315 low angle pic.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1739/27472121957_4b5eb2fd22_z.jpg

Pulled it back enough to get the wood out from under the car.(to low even for low profile jack, deff need to up the ride height) Backed it up, got stuck on the wood. Gave it some throttle. It popped. I shut it off.

ppsstttt.... for those that dont follow me on IG, you can peep the new truck in the backdrop.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1753/41439728135_4227fe103a_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1735/27472122307_86d293b2b1_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/898/27472122237_d46530c522_z.jpg

Moved the wood and pulled it back in. Awaiting another visit from the tuner.

[LS1ow]

https://youtu.be/v-6HkmxnVQI

[LTb1ow]

cummapart?

[Blackbirdws6]

Worst new car thread evar

[LS1ow]

Pulled it out of the garage and hosed the saw dust/regular dust off.

Deff going to run into some ground clearance issues with the true duals + coil overs i think. obviously right now isnt at ride height, but i still think im gunna be in trouble. We shall see.


Now i have room to give this place a nice cleaning. That floor coating is less than 3 years old !

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/882/41463578045_e98157733f_z.jpg

More pics just cus.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/902/42317484882_31d2222e9e_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/889/42317504742_9436c43953_z.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/897/42317504082_7f3b75eb0e_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1755/42365846041_40bccd04b8_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1745/41463593835_f475e3735d_z.jpg

[The_Bishop]

Looks damned good.

[KirkEvil]

This looks too nice for a Beggs build :wink:

Sounds like idle rpm is a bit high for the cam to compensate for low timing or poor idle controls pulling timing. Not sure if you're having the same issue but my TC was registering false knock and triggering the idle controls. The knock threshold was increased in hptuners and that fixed some of the breakup.

[LTb1ow]

das loowww

Looking good beggerz

[sweetbmxrider]

**** yeah

[MDSheds_SS]

Gonna look badass that low with the drag pack on there.

[qwikz28]

America rejoices seeing the Beggsmobile move under it's own power on MDW. :usa:

[LS1ow]

America rejoices seeing the Beggsmobile move under it's own power on MDW. :usa:

I thought it was fitting as well :mrgreen:

[LS1ow]

finishing up gauge install and need to pull some power. 1 key on power source, 1 lights on power source.

Off the top of anyones head, who knows which fuse i can tap into on the interior fuse box for each

[sweetbmxrider]

Brown wire off of the headlamp switch is parking light power. Tap into that for illuminati.

Fuse 9 GAUGES is hot in Run, Bulb Test, and Start.

Fuse 2 Turn B/U is hot in Run.

Not sure preference but either will be off with key off.

[LS1ow]

Brown wire off of the headlamp switch is parking light power. Tap into that for illuminati.

Fuse 9 GAUGES is hot in Run, Bulb Test, and Start.

Fuse 2 Turn B/U is hot in Run.

Not sure preference but either will be off with key off.

Will go for that today. once my wideband is up and running, street tune time.

[MDSheds_SS]

Almost ready for the next Ratchet Friday burnout contest.

[LS1ow]

Mistakes have been made.

Really planned on wrapping up my gauge install but i ran into a snag. I pulled power from were Adam suggested, but i deff messed up somewhere.

-Grounds for both gauge lighting and gauge itself and ran to ground block under the hood.

-Power for gauge lights i tapped into the brown wire going into the back of the headlight switch. There were a few wires back there that were ranges of brown to tan so i tapped into the brownest of brown. However, that wire was running into the white 4(maybe 5 pin) connector on the back of the switch. And im pretty sure thats just for the dimmer.

-Power for the guages itself i used one of these joints...

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server500/55923/product_images/uploaded_images/0957x1.jpg?t=1399575157

...and T-ed in to the GAUGES fuse. Now this is were im confused. The gauges deff have power, bc soon as i turn the key on the needle on the autometer gauges snaps up to 0 from its off post. To me, that means the gauge is in working order. Since i wont be able to tell for sure until i can get the car moving around to get a real reading. However, no action from the wideband.

Now this is were it gets crazy.

Its time for dinner so i clean up, and get ready to head inside. Long story short, somehow i set the alarm on the car off(factory alarm) and all the lights start blinking and horn going off. while this is happening, the gauges are lighting up AND the wideband screen is on !

[sweetbmxrider]

Lighting up as in flashing with the alarm? Post up the gauges you have/wiring diagrams.

[LS1ow]

Lighting up as in flashing with the alarm? Post up the gauges you have/wiring diagrams.

Yes.

Heres the wiring for the autometer gauges i have. (twist in lights)

https://lib.americanmuscle.com/files/guide-13503-02.jpg

Here is link to directions for the AEM gauge

http://aemelectronics.com/files/instructions/30-4110%20Digital%20Wideband%20UEGO%20Gauge.pdf

[sweetbmxrider]

What gauges are coming up off of their posts? Does it seem like they are at their initial reading point? So really we are concerned with wideband screen not coming on? I'd like to see that diagram and hear what you connected things to. Was the screen flashing or solid on?

It seems like the needle gauges are working correctly and illuminating when the lights are turned on, assuming you tested by turning on the headlight switch. Now just need to verify what wideband is doing and what wiring you did.

[LS1ow]

What gauges are coming up off of their posts? Does it seem like they are at their initial reading point? So really we are concerned with wideband screen not coming on? I'd like to see that diagram and hear what you connected things to. Was the screen flashing or solid on?

It seems like the needle gauges are working correctly and illuminating when the lights are turned on, assuming you tested by turning on the headlight switch. Now just need to verify what wideband is doing and what wiring you did.

I do believe the Autometer gauges are set up right signal wise. They just don’t have any illumination, however they illuminate if the car alarm is going off. For the Illumination of these, ground goes to ground block under hood. Power goes to T-tap off the brown wire going into the white connector on the back of the headlamp switch. But I’m pretty sure that white connector is for just the dimmer portion of the switch. I think I quick wire change will fix this problem. I’m pretty sure the dome lights flash when the alarm goes off, so I think the wire I’m tapped into is dome light on only power lol

Wideband has 2 connectors on back. 1 is larger, that is a complete harness already and plugs to the supplied exhaust sensor.

The other smaller sensor is 1 wires. power, ground and then 2 information wires that are only used for data pulling or something.

Ground goes to same ground under hood.

Power wire goes to GAUGES fuse via Fuse port tap like pictured above. Gauge is LED and runs bother gauge power and light power off same wire

[Blackbirdws6]

Not sure if it matters but some LEDs simply won't like a rheostat style dimmer. Meaning they need a minimum voltage/amp to even light up. Anything below that threshold and they will turn off.

[sweetbmxrider]

Yeah I would try adjusting the dimmer to see if anything changes like bls is implying.

Headlamp switch should be 10 pin, 3 on the top and 7 on bottom. If you unplug the connector and look at the pin side, the top right pin would be the brown wire that feeds the parking lamps. There should be two pins to the right of the locking tab for the connector. There should be a brown wire off of the 4 pin dimmer switch too, its the far right when looking at the pin side tab up.

[LS1ow]

Mistakes of mistakes were made.

So yesterday i had some time to fiddle with the car. Tried the dimmer light, nothing. Pulled the switch and tapped into the wire adam suggested, still nothing.

Grew frustrated and decided to start over. Pulled all the gauges and wiring out, only leaving the 2 ground wires there to pick up again during reinstall.

I pulled the car back into the garage last night, and i realized something. I do not have any "backlight" on the gauges. The cluster itself and the screen work, but there is no working light. Nor do the lights in the mirror come on when i open the door(dome light does)

If i was tapped into that circuit, and it wasnt even working in the first place, that could be the answer to my problems.

[sweetbmxrider]

:rofl: sum bitch

Did ya check fuses??

[LS1ow]

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1756/42686502862_f12be5bf9e_z.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1753/42686502962_ccffc67e83_z.jpg

[The_Bishop]

That is... amazing. Holy crap.

Nice.

[sweetbmxrider]

**** yeah

[wretched73]

Legit

https://i.imgflip.com/m8n4m.gif

[MDSheds_SS]

Hope this car is ready for America’s birthday burnouts on the 4th.

[LS1ow]

Small Update:

Pulled the car back in the garage to set the ride height, searches say i should sit around 27"-28" on a 26" tire, took a measurement before i threw the car on jack stand, 24" fender to floor ! lmao No one the hell stance.

Also, finally got the gauges working... but i think i MAY have a faulty sensor. The car starts it reads 14.7. Which i thought was odd to start anyway bc it isnt tuned. I didnt think there would be a chance it would be stoich first try. So after a running for a few seconds, the wideband starts to count down.. 14.7-14.6-14.5..etc etc. The car then lets out a pop(which its been doing, im just assuming bc dat untuned idle) but once the car backfires, the widebang sweeps all the way to lean and then reads "---"

I was able to replicate this a few times, so i can try to grab a vid.

[LTb1ow]

If you have a bad tune, the sensor will say F you if you keep bouncing it off the spectrum of rich/lean.

Just be sure you have the heater circuit powered up every time you run the car.

[LS1ow]

Just be sure you have the heater circuit powered up every time you run the car.

Again, but in words a Bergen county resident can understand

[LTb1ow]

Again, but in words a Bergen county resident can understand

The wideband 02 sensor has a 12v feed to it to heat it, so that it doesn't die when you run the motor.

[Blackbirdws6]

If you just do key on (don't start), the sensor normally will start at 14.7 and then creep up to max lean as it heats up. Check the manual for it's calibration process when it is started to see if it does the same.

[LS1ow]

So tired what BLS said..

Key on, not running, gauges does its little cycle. Starts at 14.7 and stays for a minuted, then begins to drop and then the lean hammer comes and it full sweeps to lean and reads "---"

Car does the EXACT same thing when its running.

[sweetbmxrider]

Watch the datastream on the car's actual o2's. See if they have similar behavior or if they switch from very low voltage to almost a full volt or something else.

[LS1ow]

Watch the datastream on the car's actual o2's. See if they have similar behavior or if they switch from very low voltage to almost a full volt or something else.

That has to be done threw HP tuners correct?

Ive read into the AEM wideband more and it seems a lot of people are knocking them. I purchased this one second hand, albeit from a buddy, so who knows. I dont think my friend would sell me a bad gauge knowingly. I also read that they are very tempermental with how they are wired. So ill be looking over that next.

[MyFirstZ]

Small Update:

Pulled the car back in the garage to set the ride height, searches say i should sit around 27"-28" on a 26" tire, took a measurement before i threw the car on jack stand, 24" fender to floor ! lmao No one the hell stance.

.

That 27"-28" was measured to the floor as well ?

Ride height should be measured from the bottom of the wheel edge to the highest point of the fender

[LS1ow]

That 27"-28" was measured to the floor as well ?

Ride height should be measured from the bottom of the wheel edge to the highest point of the fender

The thread i saw on tech was measuring from hieght point on wheel arch to ground @ 27-28. I have my car at 27" now and it looks about were it should be. Ill grab some pics today.

[LTb1ow]

Could be a bad sensor Beggz.

Have you tried the manual calibration for the wideband?

[LS1ow]

Let the car idle for about 2 mins last night and nothing on the wideband. Just cycles threw the number, starts 14.7 and then lean hammer after a few seconds. Reads "---" the entire time the car was running.

Im gunna check over all connections a today and go from there. BLS said possibly just wire the power direct to batter just to test so ill prob do that. If that doesnt solve it i will brakeclean test the sensor.

[LTb1ow]

Once you verify the connections, take the sensor out of the exhaust and do a manual recal of it.

[LS1ow]

Once you verify the connections, take the sensor out of the exhaust and do a manual recal of it.

How does one accompish? Just run the sensor to atmosphere instead of in the pipe?

[LTb1ow]

How does one accompish? Just run the sensor to atmosphere instead of in the pipe?

Never mind, apparently AEM is just calibrated from factory and never able to be adjusted.

[sweetbmxrider]

The thread i saw on tech was measuring from hieght point on wheel arch to ground @ 27-28. I have my car at 27" now and it looks about were it should be. Ill grab some pics today.

That's what I did with about 1 inch of rake added into the rear.

[LS1ow]

So i finally had some time to myself yesterday to get back to work on the car.

For starters, i tore all the gauges and wiring out. Just from moving the car in and out of my garage a few times i grew annoyed with the pillar pod set up. So ordered some more ABS plastic and fresh hole saw blade to do a pod in the vent.

ANYWAYS...

As previously mentioned, one thing that could be causing the issue im having is a **** ground or power connection to the the gauge. For testing, i ran the power wire directly to the post were the battery cable powers the fuse box. Then ran the ground for the gauge directly to the ground block i have under the hood. Which i know is a good ground bc everything else thats hooked to it works.

With the key on, gauge did the same exhaust thing. Started the car, same thing.

With the next step being to test the sensor i put the car up on jackstands so i could slide my belly under. It began to rain while i was doing that, so i just cleaned up once it was up. But while placing the jack stand, i saw 1 of the slip joins on the exhaust was open. About 8" after the wideband.

[LTb1ow]

I have a 6LE three guage HVAC plate if you want

[LS1ow]

Slid myself(and belly) under car and removed sensor from pipe.

Soaked rag with brake cleaner and it read 14.7 once power, and slowly swept to full rich. So the sensor should be good, no ?

[Blackbirdws6]

Seems that way. Double check no other leaks upstream and plan a date with that tuner.

[LS1ow]

Seems that way. Double check no other leaks upstream and plan a date with that tuner.

Could the down stream leak cause it?

[Blackbirdws6]

Could the down stream leak cause it?

Seems pretty unlikely. If it was closer, maybe but not that far downstream

[LS1ow]

Kirk suggested i take a look and see if my o2 sensors plugs are swapped as well.

[LS1ow]

Looks like the only differences between the o2 plugs is 1 has solid purple wire, 1 has purple with white stripe wire.

Who knows which goes were

[LS1ow]

Looks like driver side should be Purple with white stripe and passenger should be solid purple...amirite

[sweetbmxrider]

Yup

[PolarBear]

Ride height should be measured from the bottom of the wheel edge to the highest point of the fender

Umm, no. Ride height should always be measured from the middle of the wheel, the spindle to the fender, not from the ground.

[sweetbmxrider]

Umm, no. Ride height should always be measured from the middle of the wheel, the spindle to the fender, not from the ground.

Technically he said from bottom of wheel edge, not ground so tire smash isn't effecting measurement.

Technically the fender heights can vary. I'm sure its slight but its not the truest measurement.....If it matters that much....

[LS1ow]

So o2s were correct. Also threw on all new clamps(large 3” stainless band style) on all the slip joins from the collectors all the way back to the over axle pipe. So no more exhaust leak.

However. Same crap with wideband. So I’m kind of at wits end here.

On the positive side, tmmr, barring any sort of failure, we will be street tuning after work.

[LS1ow]

Saturday was another day of Trial and Error with the tuner.

First, for the hell of it we re-uploaded Kirks tune into the PCM and tried to get it to go. Ran, but did not run any more well than it was. So moved on.

The car has GTP injectors in it, so he double checked his numbers and then we compared them to some numbers provided by other people that have used the same injectors with LS1 fuel system, and they were spot on.

We are pretty sure the wideband itself is all set up correctly, but there is just a issue with the car/tune.

While doing all this, we noticed the alternator wasnt charging at all pretty much. So much so that i had to have the car connected to the jump box bc it wouldnt have enough juice to start after reloading files. So a new alternator is on the way.

After trying a ton of different crap. Adding fuel, pulling fuel, No MAF, less maff influence, different files of cam only LS cars he had on his computer, we both kinda came to the conclusion that there is an issue with a component. Me, the tuner, and my entire cast of characters that were there were leaning towards it being 2-3 injectors that are peeing in my cereal.

Next Move: toss the stock injectors back in, start from a known good constant.

So i hit up mike, whom pointed me to Keith, who had his stock injectors. Took a quick ride up to him and grabbed them. (BONUS CONTENT: Me and my brother stopped at a bar called The shepherd and knucklehead in North Haledon, great beer selection and food) So today after work ill be tossing in the injectors.

As some of you may remember, i previously swapped in the stock injectors a few months back when i was running into misfire/backfire issues. When we swapped them in it did indeed make the issue a smidgen better. But it didnt fix it. So i swapped back to the GTPs continued to diag. Ended up being the pushrods. So im kinda grasping at how when i swapped to stock injectors it helped a little, and im only a little off currently, so hopefully that solves it. Then i can order some brand new injectors and we can hit the dyno.

BLS bought up a good point to, with the electrical system barely getting any power it could have an effect on the ignition/pcm/injectors ect.

TL;DR- Alternator needs replacing. Injectors are shot... or are they ???

[LTb1ow]

My car would run completely different with a dead alternator.

You can have the tuner mess with the voltage offset parameters but I would highly advise starting with a solid working electrical system.

[WildBillyT]

My car would run completely different with a dead alternator.

You can have the tuner mess with the voltage offset parameters but I would highly advise starting with a solid working electrical system.

This. Gotta have a solid electrical system first.

[Jersey Mike]

Sheps a good spot (sister location in Hoboken fyi). Glad you were able to get them; hope they help.

[sweetbmxrider]

Are you sure the alternator isn't charging? Because the battery starts the car and sitting there with the key on to tune is depleting the reserve but if its not 20+ minutes to every 2 of running, I would lean that direction....You should see about 14.7 volts at a decent idle assuming you don't have yours set at 500 for all them chop chop PAH! Battery resting should settle at about 12.5 and while cranking, no less than 10 volts but closer to 10.5 and up is best.

[The_Bishop]

Low voltage will screw with the way the injectors fire, and some are more susceptible to low voltage issues than others. Get the charging system in line first!

[MDSheds_SS]

Can you run it off jumper cables to your truck just to see if voltage is definitely your problem?

[LS1ow]

Are you sure the alternator isn't charging? Because the battery starts the car and sitting there with the key on to tune is depleting the reserve but if its not 20+ minutes to every 2 of running, I would lean that direction....You should see about 14.7 volts at a decent idle assuming you don't have yours set at 500 for all them chop chop PAH! Battery resting should settle at about 12.5 and while cranking, no less than 10 volts but closer to 10.5 and up is best.

Pulled alternator off same day anyway so didnt ever check. But took to 2 different autobones to run it on the testing bench and it failed at both locations. Coaxed them into testing a brand new alternator just to prove to me it wasn't a rigged machine for auto fails.

Can you run it off jumper cables to your truck just to see if voltage is definitely your problem?

Didnt run it off my truck, just left the jump box on the batt. Once we did so the car idled much better and started a hell of a lot easier. So i dont think the voltage issue is the problem, more of something that just had to be fixed.


Stock injectors were put in last night, alternator arrived today. Plan of attack is toss in tonight.

[LTb1ow]

So, is it better?

[MyFirstZ]

I have an alternator if you want it.

its a cheap LS1 from advanced that I picked up and ran for a little before i realized anything over 7k rpm it stopped charging so i had to switch to a higher amp one.

[LS1ow]

So, is it better?

Unaware. The new alternator has some weird i guess cooling duct on the back of it. like so..

https://cdn7.bigcommerce.com/s-35fn7u8n1i/images/stencil/500x659/products/22137/56600/adr0182-2__93485.1471342346.jpg?c=2

That would clear when it was just bolted it, but i could not adjust the mount to get tension on the belt(i have just a alt to balancer belt, no tensioner.) due to clearance.

Luckily when i crawled back under i saw it was hitting the hardlines that are on the steering rack were they bend up and go into by were the pump lines come in. The car doesnt have PS either, so i threw some vice grips on the line that was hitting and bent it until the alternator cleared and slid back and forth in the adjustment bracket freely.

By this time it was completed it was like 10pm. I didnt want to play the song of my backfiring people that late on the weekday.

I have an alternator if you want it.

its a cheap LS1 from advanced that I picked up and ran for a little before i realized anything over 7k rpm it stopped charging so i had to switch to a higher amp one.

Crap, i wish you offered 2 days ago i would have taken it !

[sweetbmxrider]

Well?

[Blackbirdws6]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/d/d6/Well..._We%27re_Waiting.png/revision/latest?cb=20131216171523

[LS1ow]

Sorry !

Was advised by tuner to wait for him to log a stock injector file in before starting.

[LS1ow]

Alright, so tuner came by today again and we made some progress... ...on figuring out what’s wrong.


With the stock, known good injectors it was still running like crap. We loaded in some tunes he had from other A4 LS cars with similar set ups just to see, and nothing. Running like butt, and still nothing reading on the wideband.

So next we decided to shut off injectors 1 by 1 with the HP tuners, and boy did it get funky. We did it in order, 1-8.

Shut 1 - no difference
Shut 2- engine began to die
Shut 3- nothin
Shut 4- engine began to die
Shut 5- nothin
Shut 6- begins to die
Shut 7- nothin
Shut 8- begins to die.


You see what’s up here ? HP tuners doesn’t let you shut off more than 1 at a time apparently, so I unplugged all of bank 1 sensors, 1 by 1, until there was NO INJECTORS plugged in on the driver side, and it didn’t change the engine running condition 1 bit. Headed to the passenger side, soon as I unplugged an injector it began to die.

All my driver side injectors are dead. Which explains why my wideband is only reading lean! Also explains why I burnt my hands unplugging the passenger side injectors, but the driver side was just radiant heat.

That leaves me with A. Harness is messed up or B. PCM is messed up. Amirite?

[ThoR294]

almost like it's bank injection lol.

I'd blame the harness first. trace that thing

[LTb1ow]

On LTX stuff you have a fuse for each bank of injectors. Maybe start there?

Should be a hot feed to the bank and PCM grounds each injector to fire. My guess is you didn't mess up 8 grounds to PCM, so the hot lead being suspect is a better start.

[ThoR294]

On LTX stuff you have a fuse for each bank of injectors. Maybe start there?

Should be a hot feed to the bank and PCM grounds each injector to fire. My guess is you didn't mess up 8 grounds to PCM, so the hot lead being suspect is a better start.

Yup good call

[LS1ow]

My guess is you didn't mess up 8 grounds to PCM

Are you doubting me.

[LTb1ow]

Yes.

[LS1ow]

Looks like it goes as followed...

On the blue PCM connector-

Injector 1 = pin 36
Injector 3 = pin 3
Injector 5 = pin 76
injector 7 = pin 43

so at the injector connector for continuity test pin for the following..

Injector 1 = Black wire
Injector 3 = Pink & Black Wire
Injector 5 = Black & White Wire
Injector 7 = Red & black wire

ANDDD...

There are 2 fuses labeled INJ in the same fuse box as the starter relay and what not. They are not label which is which, but i will check both.

anyone wanna double check my pin out assumption ?

[LTb1ow]

Yes.

Yank a fuse, check for power at either bank. You have a 50/50 chance here

[LS1ow]

swung home on lunch and pulled the fuses. Both good.

Are injectors key on power? So id be able to test for power at the fuse

[ThoR294]

swung home on lunch and pulled the fuses. Both good.

Are injectors key on power? So id be able to test for power at the fuse

Should be. They are ground controlled so should have power with Key on engine off.

[LS1ow]

Should be. They are ground controlled so should have power with Key on engine off.

Okie, ill check that today as well.

[Jersey Mike]

Nothing to helpful but just make sure you have the correct pcm pinout info for your pcm. I believe GM changed them for 99-02.

[LS1ow]

Nothing to helpful but just make sure you have the correct pcm pinout info for your pcm. I believe GM changed them for 99-02.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/11225188/leave-this-place-now.jpg

[LS1ow]

Here is current plan.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/833/29605114068_a63ce08a8c_z.jpg

[LTb1ow]

1) Make sure you have a power at each injector.
2) Check resistance across each injector (actual value is moot, just make sure their balanced)
3) Check continuity back to PCM (Personally I would snag a noid light and just see if PCM signal is getting to injector while cranking/running)
4) Swap banks of injectors and see if problem follows.
5) Cry, drive car into swamp, buy a real LT1 car
6) Success

[sweetbmxrider]

Wait, did you verify spark and compression on the questionable side yet? Fuel, air, and spark are needed obviously so we have to see what is missing.

The pink wire is hot with "Ignition Relay Energized" so if you have power on the one bank, you should have power on the other. As said, all the grounds run back to pcm. Post pics when you find they are all fukt

[LS1ow]

Wait, did you verify spark and compression on the questionable side yet? Fuel, air, and spark are needed obviously so we have to see what is missing.

The pink wire is hot with "Ignition Relay Energized" so if you have power on the one bank, you should have power on the other. As said, all the grounds run back to pcm. Post pics when you find they are all fukt

Compression and spark verified.



So the PCM grounds the injector to get them to fire?

[LTb1ow]

Compression and spark verified.



So the PCM grounds the injector to get them to fire?

Yes

[ThoR294]

^. Most if not all FIs are ground controlled. Some just fire 4 (or 1 bank) at a time (lol 93s fbodies with bank injection).

Noid light is a great idea too makes testing easy.

[LS1ow]

Here was my findings. Im not sure if i did it right so keep with me, but this is what made sense to me.

Do not currently have a noid light.

1. After verifying the 2 injector fuses were good, i checked to make sure the fuse itself was seeing power. Indeed it is. On to the next.

Everything from here on was done with battery cut off switch off...

2. Checked continuity between PCM connector and injector plug on all 8 injectors, good to go.

3. I wasnt sure how to check for power at each injector, since i was by myself i couldnt crank and watch meter. So with the PCM plugged back in, i stuck the positive pin of the ohm meter in the pink wire terminal, and black to a ground block and it has continuity.

EDIT: If the PCM causes the injector to fire by completing the ground when it is signaled, do the injectors constantly how power while keyed on?

[LTb1ow]

Cranking has nothing to do with power at injectors.

Car on, and you should have 12v at each injector pink wire.

[LS1ow]

Cranking has nothing to do with power at injectors.

Car on, and you should have 12v at each injector pink wire.

Will check today on lunch.

So lets say i do have power at all the injectors, that combined with the other info we've already compiled would point to a failed injector driver in the pcm?

[LTb1ow]

Will check today on lunch.

So lets say i do have power at all the injectors, that combined with the other info we've already compiled would point to a failed injector driver in the pcm?

Or a unplugged PCM connector.

:bertstare:

[LS1ow]

Or a unplugged PCM connector.

:bertstare:

Not sure how possibru since it bolts in doe

[LTb1ow]

Not sure how possibru since it bolts in doe

Are you now doubting me doubting you?

Doubtful.

[LS1ow]

I actually made sure to check they slid into each other smoothly bc you had me paranoid.

Can test injector power with just test light right? Key on with test light clipped to ground, pin pink wire should result in dat light

[LTb1ow]

Correct.

[LS1ow]

Results within next 2 hours

[LS1ow]

OKAY SO.

Conundrum.

Test light i grabbed from work was 1 with 2 leads on it. Since batt is in trunk and couldnt connect, connected neg to ground stud on driver shock tower, posi connected to stud on fuse box. Battery on.

Each pink injector wire, on all 8, light the light up green. According to the instructions for the test light, a green LED means they are grounded.


da fuq

[LTb1ow]

You prob nicked the harness or something

[LS1ow]

You prob nicked the harness or something

As in theres a cut or something somewhere so it’s grounding itself?